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-   -   What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo? (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5731)

fizban 14-04-2007 22:53

What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?
 
Hello everybody,

There's quite some turmoil in the Italian forum in these days. Most of us have their own thoughts about this all, but I'd personally like to hear what people (and breeders) not directly involved in the Italian-CsW-related issues think about it.

I don't want to influence anyone at this point, so here's the question: what kind of dog is the one you can see in the following two photos?

http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0359.html
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0362.html

Thanks for your feedbacks :D

Nebulosa 14-04-2007 23:36

I believe that if happen one cross betwen CzW and Saarloos can born one dog seems at the one of this foto.

fenris 14-04-2007 23:42

Sure looks like a really nice dog. Hope someone knows its heritage. Why couldnt it be a pure CWD?

Mirkawolf 15-04-2007 00:25

Re: What kind of dog is this?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
I don't want to influence anyone at this point, so here's the question: what kind of dog is the one you can see in the following two photos?

http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0359.html
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0362.html

Thanks for your feedbacks :D

Honestly, I do not mean to be bad, but these two photos are not really good and it is practically impossible to say anything about the dog.
I have seen pure CSW´s who looked like jackals, other that looked like long-haired German shepherds and still others, that looked very much like wolves. And they all had pedigree for CSW.

Jal 15-04-2007 01:06

Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

Nebulosa 15-04-2007 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jal
Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

What's about the parents of Alaska? :mrgreen:

fizban 15-04-2007 08:10

Hi,

I agree on the fact that it's hard to say something out of those two pictures.

I'm by no mean qualified to say anything but the fore legs look kinda weird (expecially the upper portion), and the mouth looks weird as well (a bit too much squareish?). I've never seen CsW looking like that, but I've seen "mixes" looking like that.

Again, I'm not really an expert, I've never seen my dog with my own eyes and it's hard to judge by those two pics.

Thanks again for the feedbacks

fizban 15-04-2007 08:13

Quote:

Again, I'm not really an expert, I've never seen my dog with my own eyes and it's hard to judge by those two pics.
Err.. I meant: "i've never seen that dog with my own eyes" (still sleepy)

I've obviously seen my OWN dog with my eyes :mrgreen:

z Peronówki 15-04-2007 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jal
Cof ...cof...hem ... also this?

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7853

Ancient Spanish proverb:
quien tiene sed sabe dónde beber...
or, who looks for it finds.... we hope only is not troubles...
for everybody.

I saw similar dog.... one time.... but it was not purebreed CzW....

So I have two questions:

1) For me it was very strange that so well known italian breeder registered a litter of unknown female (there is no info about her pedigree)... Anybody know what was the reason for such risky thing?

2) From the side photo I see nice good body. But the head is "something else" - it is not very typical and the dog has "goggles" - you can not find them by CzW. But it is very often by Huskies, Malamutes and also Saarloos Wolfdogs....

Pavel 15-04-2007 18:50

Shortly information from Czech republic :
Be very carefully. Czech Club just 2 years ago fefused illegaly experiment with Mutara hybrids. This dogs were illegaly registrated against all regulation of FCI and Chech kenel club. We know, that minimaly one of Mutara hybrid have had a puppies, but we are not inform, if this puppies were registrated or not (in CZ 100% not). Because are now very closely contacts between owners and supperters of Mutaras and some CsW breeders in France, Holland and Italy, is very propably, that they trying registering Mutaras puppies in this countries. Mutaras have nothing to do with our dogs and can only breaking the genetical potential of CsW. In last weeks and months shows some "CsW" in Italy and after question, who is the mother and father was answered, that its a "old czech bloodline". Is 90% propability, that its one of Mutaras or her puppies.
Its very sorry, but some people speaking only about our breed and only declare, how loves CsW. Illegaly registration of dogs and breeding on illegaly hybrids is crime and is against the FCI regulation. Me personally initiate the process to remove the breeding registration of such "breeders".

Be carefully and dont buy puppies from breeders (doesnt matter if famous or not), they dont credibly declare minimaly 3 generations of ancestors from puppies. In some suspicion can everybody contact czech or slovakian Club of CsW, where can inform about situation.

Pavel 15-04-2007 19:15

And one appendix only :
Owners of Mutaras are Jindrich Jedlicka and Nada Sebkova. One of biggest supporter for Mutaras is Petr Malasek (one of best friends of Jedlicka). According the pages of Italian CsW Club, Malasek have now one female from kennel Passo del Lupo. I would like to see the paternity tests of this female and her parents, because here in CZ is a "public secret", that Malasek propably have puppy from Mutara ... Is in the game kennel Passo del Lupo as well ? Who is "Alaska" ? I dont want to blame somebody, but whoel story and today contacts are very very suprising.

fizban 15-04-2007 20:21

Thank you very much for your informations and the "head up", Pavel. In a few hours I'll translate your posts in the italian portion of the forum so that everyone can read and hopefully this will result in clarifications, or some "cleaning" if needed.

fizban 15-04-2007 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
And one appendix only :
Owners of Mutaras are Jindrich Jedlicka and Nada Sebkova.

Hi again.

Pavel, I didn't notice the additional coincidence, but some other Italian fellow did. Jindrich Jedlicka happens to be the judge of the latest italian bonitation as well. So he judged the mentioned dog (son of "Alaska") as well.

You say: "Me personally initiate the process to remove the breeding registration of such "breeders". "

Do you mean you are going to do so for this particular case? If so, what are you actually going to do - could you please explain?

Could you also suggest us (or better yet, the members of the italian club - I'm not one of them) what to do in order to get some clarification on this issue, or to promote official investigations? Also: how could we contact the czech or slovakian clubs?

Thanks

fizban 15-04-2007 22:36

Well, I'm actually unsure about one of my statements. The name of the judge and the name you wrote are spelled different.. this judge is actually "Jedlièka Jindøich". Are we talking about the same person or it's just a case of similar name?

Hanka 15-04-2007 22:36

Hello,when I have seen your fotos, My idea was: "it is some Mutara" :D . So, Pavel and I have the same idea :D .
The people from czech club know: it is not safe to buy some puppy from Italy. Sad....We never know, what we can have. Are parents of puppy in pedigree the same like real parents? Have they really X-ray result 0/0???
I heart from some italian breeders. "Don´t belive, what you can see in italian pedigrees. It is false, very often, italian breeding is only golden cover. But don´t know, what is under it".....
So, for us are wolfdogs from Italy "blind way".

fizban 15-04-2007 22:53

Hello Hanka,

Well, "sad but true" (like the Metallica used to say) I guess 8)

Without getting in the details (I'd rather avoid getting sued ;) ), there are *a lot* of CsW owners (and breeders) totally unhappy about our national club.

Hopefully, for a reason or another, this situation will change at some point. Let's just hope it's not going to take forever: most of us are deeply in love with this breed, and it's unpleasant for owners and (the honest) breeders to know we (Italian) are seen in that way in the Czech republic

Mirkawolf 16-04-2007 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
We know, that minimaly one of Mutara hybrid have had a puppies, but we are not inform, if this puppies were registrated or not (in CZ 100% not). Because are now very closely contacts between owners and supperters of Mutaras and some CsW breeders in France, Holland and Italy, is very propably, that they trying registering Mutaras puppies in this countries. Mutaras have nothing to do with our dogs and can only breaking the genetical potential of CsW. In last weeks and months shows some "CsW" in Italy and after question, who is the mother and father was answered, that its a "old czech bloodline". Is 90% propability, that its one of Mutaras or her puppies.

What is worrying me, is that saying this without having any real proof, might seriously injure the reputation on CSW´s worldwide. If this information, however it is so far just a rumour obviously, reaches the media or lay public, we can have a big problem. The media will not ask, who has something to do with possible introducing of hybrids into the breed, neither who is responsible. But they will be the first to point finger on CSW as dangerous dog, and it can cause all sorst of problems - banning the breed where it was not banned before, strict regulations, who knows, maybe even confiscations of dogs, who might seem to somebody dangerous.
Not to mention that for DEFRA or other organisation, this would be only a proof to be difficult with our breed.

Wolfsirius 16-04-2007 12:06

Mirka; Very good text!
I am worried about ban in Finland, cause only one case in Finland (public) happened with a wolfdog (hybrid) where it attacks old lady (not badly) and after that ONLY ONE CASE goverment thinks to ban hybrids. As hybrids are banned, next will come "pure wolfdogbreeds" cause so called "history" and how breed had made is same for those goverment people; a dog and a wolf=wolfdog, no matter if is Csv, SWH or hybrid.
They are not interested if is real breed or not. And now in Finland had happened already so, that people who have hybrids, say to people who asking what kind of dog you have; "is ceskoslovensky vlcak or a saarloos" and this all because they are afraid that if people know they have hybrids, which soon will be banned, they have problems. And as these hybrids behave very badly (some of them do) all will be in the name of these 2 breed.

Again very worried; -Suski

fizban 16-04-2007 12:39

Pavel,

FYI and use I've made some search on the ENCI website (the italian dog organization with registry and stuff) and it actually looks like Jedlicka Jindra ownes one of the puppies (selly, female) born from the lion pdl x alaska mating. All the puppies are owned (according to the official database) by the breeder himself, but selly and sam, owned by some other person (it's not in the list you gave us, so I'd rather not publish his complete name here. The initials are K.J.)

Since that data in public domain (the registry is online and avaiable for everyone) I don't think I'm doing anything wrong giving you that information.

Alaska has no known ancestors even on the ENCI database.

How does wolfdog.org work - can someone correct the Alaska entry on the db by adding all the puppies? I can give you the names if no one else is able to fetch those info for you from the ENCI website.

fizban 16-04-2007 13:30

Also, can someone who understand czech can tell us something about this: http://www.cswolfdog.cz/content/view/456/44/

Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.

Thanks

z Peronówki 16-04-2007 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.

The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....

fizban 16-04-2007 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo
Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong. The mother is not Vicky Passo del Lupo but "Alaska". Does anyone know who collected that info, and who told them about the heritage of Sangria?
Correcting that page would also be nice.

The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....

That's "fun" ;)
Thank you, Margo

Huan 16-04-2007 17:49

For me the whole thing looks very suspicious for the following reasons:

1) Experienced breeder usually doesn't use a female with unknown origin like Alaska because the result of such breeding can be unpredictable

2) At least two puppies from Alaska are owned by Czech people. There's maybe a coincidence ... the puppies in Czech republic are many times cheaper than in Italy - buying these puppies would mean they had very high interest in them... because of what? Mother of unknown origin? Would they really buy a cat in the bag for such high price?

3) These two people were strong supporters of Mutaras - one even owns or owned one of them. After both clubs (Czech and Slovakian) banned registration of Mutaras the people who wanted to register them didn't give up. It was known that they are looking for other ways of including them in the breeding. It is also known that the people had good connections to Italian breeders and that many people predicted that Italy will be the next place where they will try again with Mutaras - there is no real control about what specific breeders can do and everyone can register dogs in LIR (entry registry).

4) there are explanations that Alaska is a female from an old Czech line. If this is true and the dog comes from Czech Republic then it should have tatoo number and if the dog doesn't appear in the wolfdog database then IT IS NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG. In the database we have information about all registered old czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

I'm really interested what is true here and what's not. I don't want to make any judgements without knowing more from both sides but if it would confirm that Alaska is connected with Mutaras or is other wolfmix and not Czechoslovakian Wolfdog then I'm affraid that the mentioned breeder would be in big troubles. People responsible for using Mutaras or other mixes in breed should be prepared that if something like this gets to the public that they it means end of life for them as breeders of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. I'm not even saying about official ways but just the fact that such opinion of a "breeder breeding mixes and not purebred CzWs" would spread around Europe...

fizban 16-04-2007 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
PS : Andre, we speaking about same person, only Jedlicka we write with the hooks over "c" and its not shows in other chracter code pages, than czech.

Ok, thanks again..

Well, if what you have been stating in this thread is true, it's all rather disgusting.

I'll try to propose something to my italian fellows, let's hope it'll result in changes in the way things are conducted.

fizban 16-04-2007 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Przemek
4) there are explanations that Alaska is a female from an old Czech line. If this is true and the dog comes from Czech Republic then it should have tatoo number and if the dog doesn't appear in the wolfdog database then IT IS NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG. In the database we have information about all registered old czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

Well, according to the ENCI website, Alaska doesn't have a tattoo but a microchip. Also, the breeder Alaska is registered under is a female italian name (I've never heard her name, and googling for it doesn't result in anything related to wolfdog - I know this means nothing, but still it's worth mentioning it, IMHO).

I can't help for any of the other points..

Pavel 16-04-2007 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Well, according to the ENCI website, Alaska doesn't have a tattoo but a microchip.

Only for information - puppies of CsW born in CZ after 31.12.2006 have never more tattoo, but microchip only. But here we speaking about older dogs, which must have tattoo.

Navarre 17-04-2007 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo
Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Sangria Passo del Lupo is listed over there but the info is wrong.

The data has been colected from the official CMKU dog show catalogue. The info was sent by the owner and breeder of Sangria in the entry form (no other way is possible)....

May be the breeder (Fabio Caselli- Passo del Lupo) or the owner (Fausto Mattioli, president of Italian Club) aren't so sure about his mother :mrgreen:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
You put to dogs same bonitation code system, but your bonitation according not to bonitation in countries of origin.

OH WELL ! It'sabout 3 years that we said this: you can't give same results (P1,P3, etc.) to different tests or exams !

But it' is like speaking to a wall of bricks :(

Navarre 17-04-2007 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
And sorry to say Pavel, if we didn´t would have the italian breeders, the breed wouldn´t be so far at this point

good or bad this statement ? :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
And please do me a favour and get to know italian lines of csw. Then you will see that there are a lot more "dogs" than in the countries of origin!

I agree with Pavel : quantity IS NOT quality !
Of course you can find some good csw among hundreds of untypical csw!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
And you can laugh at but my experience is that these dogs are much more easier to handle and of course some of them look much more than a wolf!

Ok, I laugh :cheesy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Sure, from my point of view it is a pity to raise up dogs only in kennels, not to socialize them on people .

It's a pity to see csw biting their owners and after that used for mating a wolf-hybrid , it's a pity to see every year more csw killed after an aggression and so on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
And it is not illegal or criminal to breed in wolves or wolfhybrids,

No, it's not illegal, but when I buy a puppy I want to know that this puppy is a cross between an artic wolf and a GS/malamute!
When I buy a puppy I want to know who are his parents!

As you can see, in this story everything is hidden...so if is it legal why keep all hidden ?

(sorry for my english...)

hanninadina 18-04-2007 02:15

Last Navarre: good statement. Lots of dogs mean that there will be at least a few good ones. And with these good ones you can go on with the breed. See offspring of Miky and sons Induk and maybe Grey Wolf - here missing shows, bonitation and of course exams -. But nice looking dogs and comparing to other male dogs easy to handle as I have been told from friends of me who know them. Sure, I know that there have been lots of offspring. But this is always the same, only a very few are really good.

Why it is all hidden? Because as you maybe know that most of the people did not understand why bringing artic cross with GSD in CSW-breed. So maybe people who were fans of these "project" had wait, till a carpatian wolf had been brought in in csw breed. In germany there was a litter of csw and wolvin last year.It is very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.

CSW biting their owners and than used for breeding? So maybe there were the wrong person for the right dog? I don´t know which dog and which owner you mean. Maybe the owner is not able to handle the dog? CSW killed because of aggression. That is interesting, please, can you tell us more about. I mean it really that this point interests me. So, if it is because of genetic false such dogs have nothing to do in breeding. As I see it, maybe it is a problem in italian that people are allowed to breed with only one show or I saw litters without shows. So interesting people should get the information which dogs you mean. I know it is difficult because these owners don´t like it when people are telling the truth.

What kind of dog is this? Looks like a long wolf mouth... But the head is not bright enough. Even a specialists would not see that this is maybe a cross! So what? There is a standard and if you will find something that the dog is not in the standard ok. But as you wrote there are lots of dogs in italy - and other countries - which are not in the standard. Here in germany but in italy too there are lots of csw which have much too long ears! But the head of a dog and of course a wolfdog it really important. It should be a heavy one with long mouth and much coat around the part connecting the head with the body, such as a wolf.

Christian

Nebulosa 18-04-2007 03:19

Mutara's is a complete nonsense, I really not understand what they see in these hybrids for want so much put then in the CzW breed, they have NOTHING with the breed, if they want improve the breed, open lines, low the displasy problem, why not cross the Czw with a carpathian wolf with the allow of the FCI and the CzW club, something very well prepared, with much studie and using a very well selected Czw?!
I agree that the breed need a new fresh blood, but a mutt-canadian wolf hybrid won't improve the breed in nothing but bring some problems.

I have to thanks Pavel for bring this information to us, that's is a very serious problem for one breed as the CzW, I have think that the Mutara's problem have already finish, but now I and some people know that not, I think who reading this and want really improve the breed witht the selection will take much more care when select the dogs for breed for not allow the enter of one Wolf-mutt with Czw pedigree in the breeding.

Pavel 18-04-2007 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Lots of dogs mean that there will be at least a few good ones. And with these good ones you can go on with the breed.

Real theoretically is it the best way to have a best and health dogs. But the reality is other.In breed are using not only best from this big amount, but the worst as well. So that in this case amount dont helps the race. Am agree with you - select the best dogs and the rest castrate. Try to offer this to the bigger italian breeders ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Why it is all hidden? Because as you maybe know that most of the people did not understand why bringing artic cross with GSD in CSW-breed. So maybe people who were fans of these "project" had wait, till a carpatian wolf had been brought in in csw breed. In germany there was a litter of csw and wolvin last year.It is very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.

Christian, you speaking about problem about what you donz know anything. Of course, that "blood refreshing" can be good by our race as well. But if you have some basic knowledges about breeding theory, that you know, that its a very seriously step. Its need really deep and sophisticated project, where will be very precious declare target, the possible way, how to go, selection conditions and as well what doing with the animals, when project shows as wrong. "Mutara" have nothing from it. It was really wild and unprepare action, not only without project but not with breeders club agreement. And just from begin was using false dates and information (e.g. father of Mutaras was declare by registration like "CsW without pedigree" - its GSD, what his owner many times publish in CZ dog magazines).
Czech and slovakian Clubs are not principially against crossing CsW and carpatian wolf. But everything must be legaly, good prepare and setting clear rules.

fizban 18-04-2007 07:42

Hello all,

Just a quick note, someone in the italian forum admitted the Mutara experiment landed in Italy. He tried to get one subject himself, but he wasn't able to. He's still interested in getting one of those "dogs".

So, we can probably get rid of our "may be" "could be" and whatever ;)

Keep your eyes open, and let's hope we can get rid of people who acted legally (according to the italian laws, not according to the sk or cz clubs) but in a questionable way.

IMHO there's nothing wrong, theoricaly speaking, in getting new wolf blood in the breed. However, using a wolf coming from different subspecies is plain dumb. Registering offsprings as "CsW" (as it happened in italy) is plain DUMB, and I agree with Pavel's point of view when he say it's "criminal". Not because they break rules by doing so (hey, you can do it in italy, it sucks, but it's they way it works), but because it's plain dumb and it's a crime against INTELLIGENCE first of all.

So again, keep your eyes wide open, watch out when you buy puppies, and "trust no one".

fizban 18-04-2007 08:19

Oh, and as a side note if you are worried about CsW from your, or someone else's country, well blame those governments, blame people who are in fear of something they don't know at all. Blame them and keep in mind their decisions when it comes to the "vote" time. It'd sure suck if CsW was banned somewhere, but blame them.

Don't blame people who try to inform people listening to their own voice of conscience and to the information they have.

hanninadina 18-04-2007 11:01

Interesting statement that some you don´t mind if a carpatian wolf would be brought into the breed to bring in fresh blood.

But it seems to me that some of you don´t know that it is not easy to mate a dog with a wolvin or a wolf with a female dog. Wolves get into heat only from december to march+- and the males too. And please remember how the first F 1 CSW comes into the world. It was heavy stuff. The really first mating between dog and wolvin doesn´t work, do you remember? They had to take a real strong minded aggressiv gsd who was than able to cover the the wolvin in 1958.

So of course it is project that needs some time some years. And who told you Pavel, that these people had no target? And belive me or not Pavel, I know more about these things than you.

So if there are enough people who think new fresh wolf blood should be brought in, why the czech and slovakian club don´t start to look for a wolf which is good for it?

Fizban, I don´t know you I even don´t know how many dogs you have and if they are csw. But you are making politics although you are not in a csw club and know nothing about it all.

Pavel, all I know about dog breed is from the french herding dog Briard - Berger de Brie -. Because I(!) had to pass lots of exam theoretically and of course the dog too, to be stud dog or breeder. And I did courses where vets and biologists from the best vet university in germany came and explain us necessary things. And all I learn is from friends who have wolves and hybrids and who were dogtrainers too. I learn from watching behaviour of wolves and of course dogs. I saw about 30 litters of puppies and saw lots of these puppies grown up and as a adult. So if someone like fizban wants to make trouble he can do it but not here, warming up old stories without any knowledge.

And why people think who are only breeding 4-5 years or doing only 2-3 litters that they know best what is needed for the breed of csw I cannot understand. There are breeders who breed for morethan 15 years with lots of litters and lots of vey good and sucessful csw, who are not aggressiv or shy, who are working and are family dogs as well. I think that these people have much more experience and that they are the ones who should do these experiments, if they want to do this. And not people who made 8 litters in 4 years. This is quantity not quality. Not in the dogs/puppies I mean but learning about the breed and getting experience.

Christian

Christian

fizban 18-04-2007 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
CSW biting their owners and than used for breeding? So maybe there were the wrong person for the right dog? I don´t know which dog and which owner you mean. Maybe the owner is not able to handle the dog? CSW killed because of aggression. That is interesting, please, can you tell us more about. I mean it really that this point interests me. So, if it is because of genetic false such dogs have nothing to do in breeding. As I see it, maybe it is a problem in italian that people are allowed to breed with only one show or I saw litters without shows. So interesting people should get the information which dogs you mean. I know it is difficult because these owners don´t like it when people are telling the truth.

The dog he's talking about is the dog used to mate this "alaska" female dog. The male dog comes from the biggest breeder in Italy. So there's no "off-the-cuff" breeder behind it.

hanninadina 19-04-2007 10:37

Fizban, funny thing that someone like you who have an 1 year old csw Moluk - http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7638 - and who doesn´t know which is the right name of your dogs father - first you named him Danko Passo del Lupo than refugi del lupo - and even so doesn´t know the breeders name of your dog - you wrote refugi del lupo and here in wolfdog is written Raissa - and where wolfdogs Margo and Przemek don´t know who is the mother of your dog and that your named mother - Cessy Araneino poselstvi - maybe had only on litter in 2005 and not a second one in 2006 - as you mean because of your dog, but I know not everyone tells their litter to Margo - is complaining about bringing in maybe Mutara to italy....

It seems that you don´t have an FCI dog. Do you have a wolf-Mix?

Christian

P.S. Fisban worte in rutting season about his dog.

Kinga 19-04-2007 10:50

Hi,

I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. :shock: I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.


Sangria is a son of Lion Passo del Lupo and Alaska (not Viky).

In all the world, the FCI give the possibility (only for some breed not
fixed yet) to inseret some new blood for became better.

Mutara is a test and the son of Mutara is not on sale.

Jindra are a friend of my and he has some problems (in Czech) to see how
sons of mutara will grow.

Hartl tell to me to help Jindra and I can help him.

A lot of the information present in Wolfdog are not true, only the "good"
people can write and some of them are not "friend of us".

I will continues to breed my dogs.

Regards.


It's legall?
:roll: :|

fizban 19-04-2007 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinga
Hi,

I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. :shock: I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.


Sangria is a son of Lion Passo del Lupo and Alaska (not Viky).

In all the world, the FCI give the possibility (only for some breed not
fixed yet) to inseret some new blood for became better.

Mutara is a test and the son of Mutara is not on sale.

Jindra are a friend of my and he has some problems (in Czech) to see how
sons of mutara will grow.

Hartl tell to me to help Jindra and I can help him.

A lot of the information present in Wolfdog are not true, only the "good"
people can write and some of them are not "friend of us".

I will continues to breed my dogs.

Regards.


It's legall?
:roll: :|

Hello,

It is legal according to the Italian law. So no one is saying it is illegal. As for Passo del Lupo puppies, go for it if you feel they are worth (no sarcasm) :)

Watch out when you publish private emails anyway.. they are supposed to be private unless the person you are talking to granted permission to post it online (anyway, thanks for posting it, quite interesting if true)

As for any breeder and for any puppy, you should just give a look at their parents, the characters, and is it's a repeated mate, how did the previous puppies grow up. If they've had health problems and stuff..

That's it!

hanninadina 19-04-2007 11:34

That is really interesting that Hartl is involved.... Now nobody can say anything against it.

Christian

hanninadina 19-04-2007 12:15

Last Navarre the dog attack, do you mean it was Sangria?

Much better dog Lorenz Farouk brother to your dog? They don´t bring him into the breed anymore because there were I don´t know one or two puppies from him with HD D. since they know this they don´t use him.

The thing which interests me is, if the answer from Fabio that FCI (maybe only in Italy) allows to bring in new blood wolfblood in a breed here in the csw breed. Does anybody know if this is correct?

Last Navarre I have a son from Oliver Passo del Lupo and Upstream Ariminum. And I have to say that he is much more dog, not only much more dog, he is a real dog in comparison to Myla Crying Wolf who I owned. Tala is F 9/10 and Myla was F 6. Ok both were not the middle csw, one was like a wolf and one is like a dog. My dogs live with me in the house with garden, but most of the time in the house. And because I have friends who raised up wolves bottled feed in the house. I can compare their experience with mine.

But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

Clubpolitics? In germany last year it was founded the second csw club called the FreeCSWClub because in the older club there were made too much politics. And guess what they have not so much but in the same categorie numbers of member. And they do Special Show and Oskar Dora comes at the end of Mai. So professional they do it.


Christian

fizban 19-04-2007 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
The thing which interests me is, if the answer from Fabio that FCI (maybe only in Italy) allows to bring in new blood wolfblood in a breed here in the csw breed. Does anybody know if this is correct?

But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

I have no idea about FCI but ENCI allows people to (easy speaking) register *any* dog to the ENCI registers if they get "Very good" or "Excellent" for the "supposed" breed by a judge in an ENCI show. If you had a pure wolf, you present it as a CsW and the judge (often not skilled enough in CsW) thinks it's "Very good" for being a CsW, you can register it at the LIR. There, now you have an F0 registered as CsW.

Is it legal? Yes. I've said it in other post. Is it questionable? It's relative. To me yes, it is questionable. To the Slovakian club (as far as reported), the one that is supposed to protect the breed according the FCI, registering non pure-breed dogs as CsW is not legal, unless approved by them.

You seem to ignore a lot of portions of the emails supposedly attributed to Fabio Caselli. For example, this Jinda guy is having "problems" by breeding Mutara in Czech Republic. Do you need someone to tell you the problems he's running into? Pavel and others have explained it already. Behind this mutara garbage there's Hartl - it's not new you know - just browse the past posts on this matter. Does it mean it's legit according to the Sk club? I don't think so. Hartl founded the breed, so what? Is he in charge for the breed still? No, he's not.

Do you need any hint on the reason Mutara supposedly landed in Italy? Since it was impossible (or not possibile, or hard) to keep the experiment going in Czech rep or in Slovakia they looked for a country where the official club didn't have a position on the matter and where a "friendly" breeder wouldn't have mind to keep it going by mating with CsW and (supposedly) register the offspring as CsW.

Is it legal according to our laws? Yessir.

Navarre 19-04-2007 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Last Navarre the dog attack, do you mean it was Sangria?

No, Lion, his father. My english is so bad ? :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Much better dog Lorenz Farouk brother to your dog?

Of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
They don´t bring him into the breed anymore because there were I don´t know one or two puppies from him with HD D. since they know this they don´t use him.

Sorry but... or they aren't breeder or you are saying [email protected]@@@s.
:stupido

Navarre 19-04-2007 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
But if it is official allowed for Fabio to bring in Son of Mutara ok why he has to inform everybody?

Why not ? Why keep secret ? Why declares at past dog shows and bonitation that they are sons of Vicky ?

He is not a simple owner, he IS the breeding committee of italian club.

Kinga 19-04-2007 12:48

Thanks, i not wish have puppies from "puppies producent" with not clear pedigree.

Thanks for information :cheesy:

hanninadina 19-04-2007 13:09

Fizban who do you think you are, talking in this way over Hartl? Let me ask you, who are you? Having a one year old csw coming out from nobody knows! It seems to me that you don´t have any respect. What is your interest in this breed which is so new for you? You are not serious, sorry to say. Having a csw from a none fci-breeder and mixing in things he knows nothing about. this is an wolfdogbreed. And I think everyone is proud of it. And please tell me why breeders are looking for old bloodlines and are mating and breeding with F 4 Kondor for example? Yes, because they love it. And if you have a problem with dogs which are in some kind a bit more wolf than the ordinary dog, take a gsd in gray or Husky, than you don´t have problems with this wonderful wolfdogbreed.

Last Navarre, Baschan von der Wolfsranch ist the son of Lorenz Farouk. I don´t know but Ina Eichhorn the breeder is vet. And she wants to breed a total healthy dog breed. From my point of view it is consequent! Maybe Ina can tell to you personally, because she is reading here too. I know that you will have in every litter maybe one puppy with not so good hips. There are only a few litters where all puppies are clean. But mostly not all puppies were x-rayed.

Christian

Mirkawolf 19-04-2007 13:22

Christian, I do not know who are you, but could you please stop attacking people here on the forum? Thank you.

saschia 19-04-2007 13:37

sorry, I think I need to jump to this also.

Christian, you say like what Hartl supposedly said is true and the law. You forget several things.

1) Hartl is not an almighty and allknowing god. He might make mistakes. He might believe people who use only his name.

2) Hartl is not owner of the breed. He is one of TWO founders of the breed, the only problem being that people often "forget" to add mr. Rosik. Although both are alive, they are old and they have right for some peace also.

3) If not for breeders in Slovakia, there would be no CsV at all! But is anybody asking the opinion of Slovak club, or of mr. Rosik? Only very few. And they don't keep it at all time before them to support their own views and present them as the views of the founders.

4) FCI does not approve of using different breed or wolves in freshening of blood. It can be used only in case when there are serious problems with health and inbreeding. CsV was accepted under some conditions in 1989 and we had to prove in 1999 that it is a vital and healthy breed, with people interested in them, so it would be accepted definitely. If we couldn't prove it, it would be rejected. Where was Italy at that time? They hardly knew about CsV. So please don't tell that Italians are the saviors of the breed because it is not true.

You are right that we should plan very carefully if we would want to add wolf again to the breed. I agree. But there is no such need at present time and if there was such need, there are plenty of carpathian wolves in zoos around Europe and such thing can be done by carefull planning, and under supervision of breeding commitees (even Slovakia as the guarrant of breed cannot do this on its own). There are many private owners of wolves, so keeping a wolf puppy with some CsVs would surely help so that it doesn't kill the mate when it is adult. And if there is problem with getting CsV females in heat in time of wolf rut, then there are also possibilities of the other way - male CsV and female wolf. But three male wolves were added to the breed in its creation, so there has to be a way, if we really need it.

wolfin 19-04-2007 14:19

Whe have very important worts:

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia
But there is no such need at present time and if there was such need, there are plenty of carpathian wolves in zoos around Europe and such thing can be done by carefull planning, and under supervision of breeding commitees .(even Slovakia as the guarrant of breed cannot do this on its own).

See Your all THIS worts?

hanninadina 19-04-2007 16:26

Mirkawolf I don´t attack anyone, I say only my opinion. Why you ask me and not Fizban who is blaming one of the founder of the breed?

Christian

fizban 19-04-2007 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
Mirkawolf I don´t attack anyone, I say only my opinion. Why you ask me and not Fizban who is blaming one of the founder of the breed?

I'm not blaming anyone. I said this Mutara stuff, that looks like is landed in italy, is garbage; I didn't say Hartl is garbage. I think this Mutara issue is garbage for the way it has been (and is being) conducted. See the interesting points that "saschia" has made (BTW, really interesting post, thanks) for the key points that I, in my ignorance, totally share.

hanninadina 19-04-2007 17:56

But why do you do as if Hartl has no knowledge? Because you don´t like it, that for him it is ok with Mutara? Hartl is one of the founder of the breed and why should what he tinks now a days be garbage? Only because of age? Sorry, that is a poor answer. So what do you know about Mutara and breeding between wolves and dogs? It is not serious what you are saying.

Christian

fizban 19-04-2007 18:20

Dude, stop putting words I haven't said in my mouth, it is frankly annoying to keep on replying and trying to rephrase something I didn't said, or even thought. And what's up with asking questions to me, replying on your own and saying "it's a poor answer"?! :shock:

Personally I think when one gets aged, he/she usually gets wiser. Also, when I was a kid, I was teached to pay respect to people older than me. However: have you read what "saschia" said about the rules to follow in order to add "wolf blood" into the breed? That's the model *anyone*, from the dumbest breeder to the founders of the breed should follow, nowadays, if they wanted to add wolf blood to the breed.

Given that according to the Slovakian club it seems there's no need to add wolf blood, at the present time, to CsW I therefore think the Mutara project is garbage and, the way it is conducted is kinda dangerous for the breed. Why? Because if it was a test, they (whoever is going on with this stuff) should NOT register or even try to register offspring as CsW - thing that they are not.

Now. It's pretty clear to me that we do not share our point of view on this matter, and it's ok. You are free to think the way to think, and I hope to be free to do so as well. If you want to say I'm wrong and you are right, you are free to do so. However, from now on, PLEASE refrain from sticking words I haven't said in my own mouth.

Regards

hanninadina 19-04-2007 21:49

My last words to this theme:

Susanna you have two really nice dogs, but why the hell did you do inbreeding in your first litter? Jolly and Grey Wolf have the same mother! And this is not all, the fathers of Jolly and Grey Wolf are brothers.

Doing inbreeding is bad and causes high demages and illness. Inbreeding, if it is necessary, what sometimes can happen, is something to be done by really experienced breeder. But sorry, is it right that this litter from Last Navarre and Isabeau is your first litter? Didn´t you talk to Margo or/and Sarka? Why can somebody like you who is doing such a thing, blame things like Mutara where is coming really fresh blood and genes into the breed?

Sorry, I don´t understand this italian csw world. That is to high for me. What kind of csw safer you wanna be? Fizban who want to be Robin Hood - I want too -but I go first and inform me over years, talk to breeders, watch lots of litters and puppies and of course parents, watch the puppies grown up, watch wolves and wolfdogs, read books, watch documentations and and. And then I start talking about things.

That´s it. It is not real what happened in here. Sorry to say.

Christian

Hanka 19-04-2007 22:14

To Christian:
"fresh blood and genes into the breed" ??? Do you mean fresh blood of not pure breed german sheepdog and canadian wolf to our breed? Oh no. :(
We try remove from population long ears, long tailes, longer body, dark eyes- what have wolfdogs from GS. It is work for next 20years. And you want give it back to population of wolfdogs? Why??
And what will be about HIP dysplasia? It is relict of GS in breeding of wolfdogs. Do you know, what rtg results have Mutaras?

z Peronówki 19-04-2007 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka
To Christian:
"fresh blood and genes into the breed" ??? Do you mean fresh blood of not pure breed german sheepdog and canadian wolf to our breed? Oh no. :(
We try remove from population long ears, long tailes, longer body, dark eyes- what have wolfdogs from GS. It is work for next 20years. And you want give it back to population of wolfdogs? Why??
And what will be about HIP dysplasia? It is relict of GS in breeding of wolfdogs. Do you know, what rtg results have Mutaras?

Hanka, keep smiling... :mrgreen: Everytime when the breed looks better and there are more and more nice typical dogs "Mutara clan" appears and mixes some GSD blood to the lines... They really care for us - for ALL breeders... They care that all breeders have always something to do... We reached nice results - the ears become smaller, formats better, eyes lighter, black mask almost disapreared. So what they do? They add German Shepherd Dog mix so we can have occupation for next 20 years.... :mrgreen:

michaelundinaeichhorn 19-04-2007 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina
My last words to this theme:

Christian

Apart from Margo's prophecy of a bright future for us breeders to rebuild the standart CSW, the only positive prospect on this topic for the future.

Regards,

Michael

zikika 19-04-2007 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monika
I keep smiling always when some people speaking and writing about Mutara! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Good night

Monika

Ok...we will smile too when in your garden you will have a white CSW with long hair,hip displasy and your beautiful child or some friend of you will be bite from him :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
or do you give them only to us? :shock:
Someone want Mutara?Hold them...in his house/country not in Italy please,we will have big problems for all the breed for this thing.

I don't understand the motive for this experiment,i could understand with a carpatian wolf and a true GS but not between a white wolf and a mix (GS,Malamute? :roll: )...nothing to smile...really nothing.

freewild 20-04-2007 00:27

hi

i thing in fact white wolf without mask eyes clear woould be interesting ?????????

NO!! why do it one test any one solution i'm agree to said ths mixte is not interesting because in the futur we shuld found wolfdog without mask on totaly white

great :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: directly garbage :mrgreen:

in contrary if some one with the autorized as commitie with a real wolf ( same as 50 years ago ) and rigorous selection why not ??

but one this moment I think it's not the time

Nebulosa 20-04-2007 05:24

Only forgoth to say about the color change with the climate, white or clear at winter, darker or colorfull at summer , that's the best ! :mrgreen:


Quote:

Originally Posted by zikika
I don't understand the motive for this experiment,i could understand with a carpatian wolf and a true GS but not between a white wolf and a mix (GS,Malamute? )...nothing to smile...really nothing.

Now I know that isn't only I that not understand this, this have no explanations!

saschia 20-04-2007 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa
Only forgoth to say about the color change with the climate, white or clear at winter, darker or colorfull at summer , that's the best !

Yes and if arctic wolf is not enough, will breed also arctic hare into the breed! Nothing can stop us now! Muhaha :twisted:

wolfin 20-04-2007 08:57

I have only question.
ok, have this situation.
Breding wolfxdog mix with normal wolfdog.
and what character whe have?
All puppies stay with breeder? or hes salle?
and not have problems with WOLFDOG ??? (mixes, but with wolfdogs pedigree and name) bite and more problems with working and utility, shy character, agresion?

i think-whe have NORMAL breed and now mas make better character, not eksterjer.
You all can see shy dogs (not 1 or 2 but more) is shy linie in breed and mas working with this problems, not breeding new mix.

and FCI I grup is working dogs grup, and wolfdog is working dog with utility exam. Will whe have wolfdogs in FCI IX grup-toy and decoration dogs?
:twisted:

fizban 20-04-2007 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin
All puppies stay with breeder? or hes salle?

Hi, according to the email posted by that person in this thread yesterday, email that is supposedly attributed to the said breeder, he is NOT selling those puppies. In fact, according to the ENCI database, he's owner of all the puppies (well, they are rather grown up puppies..), beside 2 of them - owned by someone else (it's said in previous posts).

wolfin 20-04-2007 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin
All puppies stay with breeder? or hes salle?

Hi, according to the email posted by that person in this thread yesterday, email that is supposedly attributed to the said breeder, he is NOT selling those puppies. In fact, according to the ENCI database, he's owner of all the puppies (well, they are rather grown up puppies..), beside 2 of them - owned by someone else (it's said in previous posts).

hmm 1 2 or 5 dogs is ok. but from breeding new linie this breeder mas stay minimum 3 generation mix and all dogs.

and working with hem, wheil wolfdog is working breed and make test for hem psychology and utility.

it's not right?

z Peronówki 20-04-2007 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Hi, according to the email posted by that person in this thread yesterday, email that is supposedly attributed to the said breeder, he is NOT selling those puppies.

The litter of Lion and Alaska was given as an ad of Wolfdog.org so the breeder WAS looking for buyers for the mixes...

fizban 20-04-2007 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo
Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Hi, according to the email posted by that person in this thread yesterday, email that is supposedly attributed to the said breeder, he is NOT selling those puppies.

The litter of Lion and Alaska was given as an ad of Wolfdog.org so the breeder WAS looking for buyers for the mixes...

I've just read it in the other thread.. I wasn't aware :|

z Peronówki 20-04-2007 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinga
I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. :shock: I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.

HI!

Could you please tell me who wrote this email? I have answer that the words were not written by the breeder...

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...wtopic&p=90102

fabio.. 20-04-2007 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo
I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. Shocked I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.

Altra incredibile bugia.

Ho certezza (e sai che è vero) che nessuno ha mai chiesto a Wolfdog di pubblicare la cucciolata di Lion x Alaska.

I cuccioli di quella cucciolata sono stati dedotti e inseriti in Wolfdog senza il consenso dei proprietari.

Smettila di pubblicare falsità o di fare affermazioni di cui non hai prove.

Pavel 20-04-2007 20:50

Can somebody translate it ?

Thank

fizban 20-04-2007 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
Can somebody translate it ?

This is what he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Another incredible lie.

I'm certain (and you know it's true) that noone has ever asked Wolfdog to publicize the Lion x Alaska litter.

The puppies of that litter have been deducted and added on Wolfdog without the owner's agreement.

Stop posting lies and making statements you can't back up with proves


wolfin 20-04-2007 21:05

Hmm...if all lie, PLEASE can You Fabio explain this situation, or You not interesing for breed good, only will breding/producent puppies?

Please explain this only You Fabio cann this all explain.

regards

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizban
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
Can somebody translate it ?

This is what he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Another incredible lie.

I'm certain (and you know it's true) that noone has ever asked Wolfdog to publicize the Lion x Alaska litter.

The puppies of that litter have been deducted and added on Wolfdog without the owner's agreement.

Stop posting lies and making statements you can't back up with proves



Rona 20-04-2007 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Another incredible lie.

I'm certain (and you know it's true) that noone has ever asked Wolfdog to publicize the Lion x Alaska litter.

The puppies of that litter have been deducted and added on Wolfdog without the owner's agreement.

Stop posting lies and making statements you can't back up with proves

Excuse me? :shock: :shock: Are you implying that Margo or Przemek advertised on wolfdog an Italian litter without the knowledge of the breeder??? Are you trying to make fools of us? :twisted: Maybe tomorrowq you will try to convince us that either Margo or Przemek invented ALASKA?
I suggest that if you want to LIE you should do it more skillfully :twisted:

By the way, could you explain what kind of dog Alaska is? What is her heritage and where she comes from? If you have nothing to hide this shouldn't be a problem, should it?

fabio.. 21-04-2007 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona
Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Another incredible lie.

I'm certain (and you know it's true) that noone has ever asked Wolfdog to publicize the Lion x Alaska litter.

The puppies of that litter have been deducted and added on Wolfdog without the owner's agreement.

Stop posting lies and making statements you can't back up with proves

Excuse me? :shock: :shock: Are you implying that Margo or Przemek advertised on wolfdog an Italian litter without the knowledge of the breeder???

Si.
Io e mia moglie siamo le sole persone che possono mandare certe informazioni.
E Margo lo sa.

wolfin 21-04-2007 11:43

of topic.
very interesing case.
Mrs.Fabio wright in italian, but he untersant english.
You make from as idiots?
in this case i about You can lithuan wright, was translate this in Your lenquaqe.
please wright english, or going out from this forum.

we not like a TROLS.

Wolfsirius 21-04-2007 12:07

I think we all should try to be correct to each others.
Agressive writing with bad words don't help.
There is lot of people angry, and disappointed etc. but everybody should be able to write correct to each others.

To blame someone "stupid,idiot" etc. sounds a bit childish.
We are (almost) all adults, and we should behave like that.

At internet is often very easy to write many things which never said face to face.

Everybody; Think best for the breed, don't use energy for fighting or calling people with bad names.

-Suski
(mother of 3 kids, seems to have time to spend on internet still :lol: )

Wolfsirius 21-04-2007 12:08

I think we all should try to be correct to each others.
Agressive writing with bad words don't help.
There is lot of people angry, and disappointed etc. but everybody should be able to write correct to each others.

To blame someone "stupid,idiot" etc. sounds a bit childish.
We are (almost) all adults, and we should behave like that.

At internet is often very easy to write many things which never said face to face.

Everybody; Think best for the breed, don't use energy for fighting or calling people with bad names.

-Suski
(mother of 3 kids, seems to have time to spend on internet still :lol: )

wolfin 21-04-2007 12:17

Susana, i agree You, but i not unterstand italian, and this variant from me is...hmm :roll:
all have translators or dictionary and in forums we speak our native language.

of not?

Wolfsirius 21-04-2007 12:21

Yes, i know. If write english forum, should be in English.
Of course. I don't understund italian either, but i think if is something really important, somebody will translate it.

So, all we can do is waite :)

-Suski

fizban 21-04-2007 12:41

Since I translated from english to italian on this topic I can do the other way.. but yes, it looks like he could do it on his own. However:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Yes.
My wife and myself are the only people who can send certain informations.
And Margo knows it.

If the translation is not good enough, he's saying he and his wife are the only one who could have registered the Lion x Alaska mating on wolfdog and, according to him, they did not

wilupi! 21-04-2007 17:08

to the light of the last facts maybe we should think of having the test of DNA which are put to all the dogs in reproduction to give a bigger guarantee to the customers done



sorry of my english :frown:

Deima 21-04-2007 17:47

Well, i saw Passo de Lupo web page and found more information in other places, and sorry but this is farm of dogs but not kennel :evil: And i understant why these dogs dont have any psichic test and any working test, farm animals goes only for the meat not for work o for plesure, i am very sorry of those dogs :cussing And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW....

wilupi! 21-04-2007 18:24

you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals. :roll:

wolfin 21-04-2007 18:42

Hi i thinks she will say about dogs, hes living in fabio kennels not about dogs from hes kennel.
i know dogs from PDL with exam, but this dogs not owner Fabio, but others people.

or.... not? (and me english is bad :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilupi
you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals. :roll:


Deima 21-04-2007 22:52

I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners) :wink:

massimo 23-04-2007 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deima
I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners) :wink:

Just some information so we all understand what is going on.
"Fabio" writing here is not FABIO CASELLI another Fabio husband of Laura and collaborator in some way of Passo del Lupo.

I honestly was surprised to read that somebody sent a request for Publicity of litter AlaskaxLion because whatever is the origin of dog "alaska" (still a mystery to my knowledge), I know Fabio Caselli personally and I really couldn't imagine he would SELL such dog as a wolfdog.

As for PDL "farm" dogs, I really invite all to speak about things we know and not that we SUPPOSE.
Unfortunately when you have so many dogs it's very difficult to have a good character, because time for socialization is not always enough.
In general I do not like it when breeders have too many dogs as you say because of the "socialization" problem and the lack of time to deal with all dogs.
That is why in some cases (i wish they were more) the breeder PDL asks some friends (i have been one of them) to "grow up" and "socialize" some dogs for them allowing the character to open up.
So Daima in general I personally agree with you, I prefer seeing less dogs and more time for socialization. I have some friends and I don't really agree with everything they do or say.

Quote:

I am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW
I suppose you are speaking about the non certiifed dogs and not ALL dogs coming from PDL, Farm dogs or not; just because they are "farm dogs" it doesn't meant they are not CSW...

Last thing: although there are many dogs in the kennel, i can ASSURE you that some of these dogs have fantastic characters, socialized and happy and I would take them at home even if they are adult because excellent characters.
They are not the majority of course but these dogs are really special because with good character notwithstanding the surrounding conditions.

And, just for you, some photos of my terrible dog coming from "Mutara" Kennel, as an example of PDL bad CSW ...

Bad Standard:
10 months old
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...liver/OLLY.jpg

2.5 years old

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../oliverboy.jpg

4 years old
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...er/oliver2.jpg

Bad Character
Some strangers visiting my house for the first time...
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...gnesOliver.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...urenoliver.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...liverTina2.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...udiaOliver.jpg

massimo 23-04-2007 10:31

Sorry, i made a mistake, can an adm. change the photo of 2.5 years.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../oliverboy.jpg
thanks
massimo

Pavel 23-04-2007 10:42

Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else.
Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register. Other thing is, that Mutaras were stopped in CZ, because it was registered same way as by Fabio - false the dates. Dont discuss about character, exterior etc., basic is, that somebody registered dogs illegaly. Its the main problem, which must be solved.
Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

massimo 23-04-2007 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel
Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else
...
Dont discuss about character, exterior etc.....

Strange though that you mention it NOW after my post (which of course I posted deliberately in such silly way) but you didn't mention anything after this post (which of course was the cause fo my reply...)

Quote:

Well, i saw Passo de Lupo web page and found more information in other places, and sorry but this is farm of dogs but not kennel And i understant why these dogs dont have any psichic test and any working test, farm animals goes only for the meat not for work o for plesure, i am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW....
I hope you don't want to say that one can write only to attack but not to defend the work of a breeder...OR DO YOU??
Some people and yourself are saying that you can no longer trust PDL as a kennel because of this "supposed" mutara experiment, that's putting in doubt the entire breeding work just because 1 "doubtfull" litter.
I would agree with you if I see many dogs from this litter being used by PDL and many puppies being sold in this way...
At the moment the only litters i see are coming from the world champion Issar Kollarov Dvor....

Quote:

Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register.
Are you sure?

What is false of writing a LIR from a dog without pegidgree and making puppies?
Isn't declaring "FALSE" data illegal? I don't see any ILLEGAL thing done, maybe unwise or not correct for our breed and morally discussable, but not illegal.
Maybe i'm wrong so I invite you to give me better information that i don't know, but if i mate my dog with a whippet and the puppies LOOK like a wolfdog and get "very good" in one dog show, I can start a LIR and after 3 generations get a LOI, this would be legal but really a nonsense, do you get my point?

Quote:

Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.
Again i don't understand:
Today there is ONE litter made with a LIR (not real pedigree yet) that can become a LOI (real pedigree) only after 3 generations.
If the dogs differ a lot from a CSW, the LIR should be somehow stopped.
Nobody is selling a dog with documents from a father that is not the real father or a mother that is not the real mother.
IF a buyer (i hate speaking about dogs as objects to be bought...) wants a dog from PDL Free from "suspected" hybrid, he can still do it.
There are strict rules about this and today DNA for ALL champion reproducers are obligatory. I know many dogs from PDL who are reproducing have given their DNA to the database.
If I want to be sure all i have to do is check the DNA and maybe buy from a litter with parents who have given DNA to database.
All i am asking here is to speak about things we are sure of, let's not base our statements on suppositions or "false information".
Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

My personal position??
I don't think our breed needs a canadian wolf hybrid to be improved, and, until i see results, i do not think I will take a dog coming from this mixed line.
I think buyers and people should always be informed of what they are buying, and can choose as they want.
Before I choose a dog, I look at the pedigree.
I even "invested" lately on a mating to be done just because I wanted such litter to exist, because I am curious to see what will come out from 2 fantastic wolfdogs with 2 fantastic bloodlines.
If all breeders followed the example of a few who make thousands of KM just to use a male from a different bloodline from what usually is around, and not use only the dogs coming from very near and from within our own country, maybe our breed will improve and without necessarily using an "experiment"....
massimo

Navarre 23-04-2007 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo
Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

I think not. As everybody can see, he isn't an affordable breeder anymore: who fakes one time, can fake every time.

Huan 26-04-2007 00:33

Last weekend in Slovakia we have been told that the removal of Mutaras from Czech Register was also influenced by high authorities in FCI and that the ban of Mutara registration is WORLDWIDE !!! So if at any point there should any Mutara be registered in Italy then this is made ILLEGAL. If somebody gets any hard proofs that any of the LIR registered dogs is Mutara or its offspring then the breeder has to count with serious consequences and registration of all the dogs and their offsprings will be removed.

fizban 30-04-2007 00:15

Hello,

Well, we have 2 replies from the club, one is totally not useful, the other one I have no idea, we haven't been told anything yet. I'll post it if it's useful or not plain dumb.

However, as for the first reply, it looks like they couldn't care less about this mate with a dog with no known (official) history. If anyone inside the slovakian club, or anyone else with knowledge on the matter can help us with any kind of input it would be GREATLY appreciated. I've made an attempt in getting in touch with someone close to the slovakian club, but I haven't got any reply so far.

Keep in mind that this is NOT an Italian issue anymore since some of those "puppies", like it or not, are ALREADY outside of Italy.

fabio.. 02-05-2007 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fabio..
Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo
I interested in puppy Passo del Lupo but read about Alaska and am worried. Shocked I asked breeder and have reply. I publish it as legit recipent.

Altra incredibile bugia.

Ho certezza (e sai che è vero) che nessuno ha mai chiesto a Wolfdog di pubblicare la cucciolata di Lion x Alaska.

I cuccioli di quella cucciolata sono stati dedotti e inseriti in Wolfdog senza il consenso dei proprietari.

Smettila di pubblicare falsità o di fare affermazioni di cui non hai prove.

Margo, please stop to change my message !!!!!!
As everybody can see I reply to a your different message regarding the publicity of the litter and not to what upon written.

wolfin 02-05-2007 18:49

Uuuu, wonderful, FABIO You cann speak and wright in eglish lanquage. Super.
regards :)

Wolfsirius 13-09-2007 12:57

Mixes in Italy
 
Margo wrote: "Saarloos alike crossings registeres as 'S'-litter Passo del Lupo... "

i just wondering that is there used SWH in those crossings?
If, who have SWH in Italy (there is not many in Italy, i guess)
(i know, need only one if want to use) but still. I guess, there is no SWH mixed in PDL dogs. Is only my guess, does somebody have correct information about that?

-Suski

ste 13-09-2007 14:28

And...from what i saw, all participants to serramazzoni where real csw with real pedigrees...no "s.pdl" litters!

Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

Margo 13-09-2007 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo (Bericht 104442)
all my picks are available for you margo, my picks are patrimony of the breed, therefore open to everybody!!

THANKS!

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo (Bericht 104442)
I have other picks that i was kindly asked not to puublish from a couple of breeders. I am not obliged but i respect therefore i keep them on my pc together with many other "personal" pics. It's a shame...they don't understand that lack of knowledge is always bad for the breed.

No problem... But to be honest I would not care with the words of the breeders - the OWNERS are much more important... We had already cases where breeders asked us to remove photos of some dogs from their kennels (photos were send by the owners of the dogs - not made by us or anybody else). They said the dogs are "anti-advertising" for their kennels...:roll: I do not care about their opinion - so far the owners LIKE their dogs and just want to share their photos we will publish them... NONE of the breeders will make any CENSORSHIP here on Wolfdog... 8)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius (Bericht 104483)
Margo wrote: "Saarloos alike crossings registeres as 'S'-litter Passo del Lupo... "
i just wondering that is there used SWH in those crossings?

Of course not... It was ment ';)'...
'S'-litter can be called neither Saarloos Wolfhound nor Czechoslovakian Wolfdog... They are just mutts. I wrote "Saaloos alike" because they look more like Saarloos than CzW. Also basing on the "origin" they are closer pretty close to Saarloos Wonfhound but have NOTHING to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.. And the differences are VERY GOOD visible...

It is a pitty that italian law has a hole which allows to take mixes of unknown origin and breed with them...

massimo 13-09-2007 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ste (Bericht 104513)
Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

Dear stefano, please bring evidence to withstand your statement, because I will bring you evidence that what you say is NOT TRUE.
There was NO S.PDL litter at the show.
I have seen 4 out of 6 of them so I know quite well what they look like.
They should be sons of Lion Pdl and Alaska
The dog we saw, owned by the "indian dressed" people, was younger (less than 1 year) looked a lot like miky pdl head (even owner said it was son of miki but he didn't know much of mother) but stronger and very tipical.
He was short and quite long and had several white nails (lack of pigmentation, small defect)
I do not see any "sign" of being s.pdl and even no sign of being a "mutt"...he looked more like a csw and not the best looking either.
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.
massimo

z Peronówki 13-09-2007 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo (Bericht 104546)
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.

Sure... But I know many other breeds which have better structure and proportion than some CzW 8) but still other breeds and also 'S' PDL are not CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. And it is also visible... I will say again - for me Sangia will be better Saarloos than CzW... Maybe it is possible to re-register him and sign other breed in the pedigree?

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/7853.jpg

Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... :? Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...

ste 14-09-2007 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo (Bericht 104546)
Dear stefano, please bring evidence to withstand your statement, because I will bring you evidence that what you say is NOT TRUE.
There was NO S.PDL litter at the show.
I have seen 4 out of 6 of them so I know quite well what they look like.
They should be sons of Lion Pdl and Alaska
The dog we saw, owned by the "indian dressed" people, was younger (less than 1 year) looked a lot like miky pdl head (even owner said it was son of miki but he didn't know much of mother) but stronger and very tipical.
He was short and quite long and had several white nails (lack of pigmentation, small defect)
I do not see any "sign" of being s.pdl and even no sign of being a "mutt"...he looked more like a csw and not the best looking either.
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.
massimo

This is strange, I've heard Fabio making comparison between Sangria and that dog,and not with the owner of the dog, do you know the name of the dog?it's a PDL?
Bye Stefano

massimo 14-09-2007 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo (Bericht 104563)

Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... :? Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...

sorry Margo, I already spoke to you about this in Lazne...how many S. litter dogs did you really see??
If you speak about Sangria alone..then maybe I could even agree with you but...not if you speak about the entire litter, sorry.

I will make a small example, just to help you understand:
do you remember Reggio Emilia Bonitation?? were the scandal all started??
many people started shouting scandal after seeing bonitation made to Sangria, a honestly untypical CSW.
Ehm...but during that bonitation there were Sangria, Sanika and Seiko (according to official data given by italian club site) and, unofficially I know there was a fourth one too...
How many people "recognised" the other 3? not many, almost nobody...
why?? because they were more typical CSW than many others which I could mention if I wanted but I respect their breeders...however more typical in head and structure than many CSW today!
So...I would be cautious with the info you give, if you do not really have all info yourself; it would simpy be a misleading information.
I respect you and all the efforts you make and also many statements but "maybe" your statements would be different (more specific on Sangria alone and not on the whole litter) if you saw them.

The Italian Club posted some pics tacken during Reggio Emilia Bonitation
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....ini/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.
and my friend Kika was there too and has her pics published:
http://www.pilamaya.it/album%20bonit...r07/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics and a couple of "undirect" pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.

I wonder why nobody pointed these dogs out?? I know, because it is very very difficult to tell the difference!!
And, allow me to say, I am not experienced like you but...the F2 at the beginning of our breed looked like german shephards...
nothing like CSW so....i disagree..IF these dogs were really coming from were you say they are coming, i would really be astonished by the result of the Mutara experiment.
even when son of german shephard and wolf were mated with real CSW (kazan's puppies)
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2480
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/924
they don't look like CSW.
If somebody told me this dog's grandfather is a german shephard...I would have difficulties to believe it!
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0380.html

Nebulosa 14-09-2007 19:35

Massimo, the results of the Mutara experiment will never be good and never will be right, it's easy to say why, was put a mutt hybrid in the breed.
Now can born some dogs who is seems to the CzW, as born dogs seems more Hybrid like, that heteronegese of the litter is common even if you cross 2 pure dogs with completelly different lines, when more these mix be cross with pure Czw, more seems they will be with Czw, when arrive the F5 generation of dilution, difficultly will be for see a more big difference than something out standard normal defect for the breed, the problem will not appear when the mix blood be worked open in line with Czw, when the linebreeding and inbreeding be done at the CzW side, it's ok for hide the hybrids and see they as dogs seems to Czw.

But, I only see something about Mutara's mix here, and ever for show something unexpected as these mix in dog show, already a F2 or F3 ( I no wonder if have F3 already), as the presence of these mix in PDL kennel and something not advised, all that was almost hide, so, you really think that it will be much far?
Supose, some years, the Mutara's already very well diluted and already well mix in some CzW lines, all that hide as it is now, one of this "come from mix" line dog fall in one not well informed breeder, who see that one side line of his dog is 'rare', supose that this breeder start to made linebreeding or imbreeding in the mutara's line side, so, won't be much time for we see big differences betwen pure line dogs and mix line dogs again.
Canadian wolf and GSD mix is much different from Carpatian wolf and pure GSD.

If was for 'save' the breed with an open blood in the line ( I think and agree, that is really needed) do that right and wise.
CzW comes from Carpathian wolf, that cannot be changed for preserve the breed, have lines of CzW that is more "GSD like", so, can use these CzW pure dogs with an Carpatian wolf for open, do all that legally and with the knowledge of all people interessed in the breed, nothing hide.

Use a mutt hybrid as Mutara's and PDL do now, only will put the breed more close to extinction.


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