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-   -   Demoniak de la Louve Blanche (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21935)

hanninadina 11-03-2012 10:05

Demoniak de la Louve Blanche
 
Jos de Bruin, owner and breeder of Saarloos Wolfdogs living in germany brought some light in the discussion wheather Demoniak is a mix with american or europaen wolf. He wrote in american wolfdog forum:

"Pardon me! (But there was told, there is siberian wolf in who lives in the netherlands.) That never happened. They used an TWH Wolf-mix which i had and was supposed to get rehomed but i gave him to some one shortly and they let it dissapear and ended up with that breeder."

I remember that he bought in 2006 or 2007 this CSW/Wolf-Mix in Berlin for 500,--Euros. Because he had trouble with his neighbours and the courts he could not keep this dog. So it could be, what he wrote. But isn´t it ironicle that a Saarloos breeder put his hands in the csw breed? Ok, he says, he is not guilty... lol.

*Satu 11-03-2012 22:16

If your stories are true, you can ask him to taking contact to France kennelclub and do something what he can do....

martiou07 11-03-2012 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Satu (Bericht 425285)
If your stories are true, you can ask him to taking contact to France kennelclub and do something what he can do....

yes , good idea !!!!

Joswolf 12-03-2012 00:11

Christian you should not tell so many lies. (Because he had trouble with his neighbours and the courts he could not keep this dog. So it could be, what he wrote. But isn´t it ironicle that a Saarloos breeder put his hands in the csw breed?)

I did not put my hands in or ever will, in TWH. I resque some wolves and mixes becouse some fools like him breed and make them come in wrong hands and be bred into Saarloos or TWH. In France it happence and even black wolfdogs are born. I saved one TWH mix with Carpatian Wolf, before being confiscated. It came in wrong hands after Christians friend stole the puppy and sold it to a TWH breeder or her neighbor. I had nothing to do with it i never gave it to that person. And when a breeder in France uses it for TWH i am not responsible.

Jos

michaelundinaeichhorn 12-03-2012 09:40

Jos, just put the link in here with your conversation on the american wolfdog forum. This should be enough to show the truth.

Regards
Ina

hanninadina 12-03-2012 11:43

http://www.wolfdogforum.com/forum/vi...=1488&start=10

Jos wrote at 9th march 4.52 am page 2 from 4, scroll down, there you can read what Jos wrote. And he told me by himself that he bought this cswwolf mix for 500,--Euros.

michaelundinaeichhorn 12-03-2012 11:57

I know this forum. You have a strong tendency to leave out important parts and somehow change the things about 180° when you quote other people...

hanninadina 12-03-2012 12:16

Can´t you read what Jos posted by himself in wolfdogforum????? What are you talking about? That I changed Jos his post?

Can you tell names Jos? Which friend of mine did you give the animal? You save wolves and wolfdogs? Lol, that is why you now want to breed your new white wolf Knut to Willem his black Raven.... both claimed as high content wolfdogs, but everyone can see that Knut is a pure. Raven from Mace might be a true high content. But Knut is not for sure.

And you Jos are talking about saving dogs? Yes you saved this 9 year old F 1 Saarloos from France and bred him with your female(s) and made false pedigree. There is enough written about that in Saarloos Forum. And do you remember Rick? He gave you his original pedigree for cheating! But you manage to get even with him in trouble. I never would do litters with wrong pedigree, no, then I breed without pedigree.

The point is that you bought this animal in Berlin!

Joswolf 12-03-2012 13:15

How can i be responsible for this TWH mixes? And the rest you whrote are lies to. Since when did i ever agreed to breed? I saved many wolves and Mixes and now last week i had to take in another wolfmix that needed new home. I never cheated any pedigree the Club Saarloos wanted to inbreed it and even now still breeders ask me to let one of the puppys being Phenotyped but i don't. You bring up more false storys and still can not show where i did anything wrong.
So i paid money! That is what you promise and than claim to forgot you card and never pay your debts. You see that is the difference between us.

hanninadina 12-03-2012 13:41

Jos, you yourself told so many times and people that you lie, if it is necesarry .... And don´t you know Rick in Sweden, lol? hahahaha.

You even ask my puppy buyers from Noomi, if they want to take Knut for breeding. I understand more and more why there are people in the netherlands who want to put some stones at your legs and throw you in a river. Take care.

Joswolf 12-03-2012 14:47

I only know one of your puppys and would never do that with friends of you.
keep dreaming.
And wow seems to be funny if you know Rick. Did you take some pills or do you you usually respond like this. I mean you do not lie couse i do always and everybody must untherstand becouse i knew Rick? Yes you are really making sense. Take some good advice, get a job..
For me this is no longer interesting. So hold me responsible for the TWH as if i care.
Jos

hanninadina 12-03-2012 14:52

Jos, did you forget that you took the papers from Rick his Saarloos? I met Rick in September 2010 in Sweden where he organized a wolf convention.

It is funny, that you forget always what you did say...., that is what I meant, what you tell everybody, "If it is not in my (Jos) interest, I say, I lied. Didn´t you tell me about your Dingos for example?

michaelundinaeichhorn 12-03-2012 16:54

At least now it's written what everybody knew anyway.
Demoniak and Doz are mixes with fake pedigrees. And all their offspring too (hello Gunner :nono)...

Joswolf 12-03-2012 17:01

I did not forget anything, Rick sighned falsly papers I didnot. And this club asked for it but insted now they breed with sick animals.
And now i told about Dingo's:banghead
Did anybody know i did not tell about goldfish:huh
This is rteally getting ridiculous. Can some moderator stop these allegations.
Jos

hanninadina 12-03-2012 22:16

Yes, you better should not have mixed in Jos. Jos the wolf and wolfdog rescuer..., rescued pure wolves called high content wolfdogs like your Knut from Winddancer wolves in the USA, rescued for 5.000,--USDollar with 6 weeks, lol. And now? Now you are collecting two year old american wolfdog females for breeding your wolf Knut - like you collected before F 1 Saarloos for breeding your own Saarloos. Do you really have some rescued animals?

The wolf pups you took and raised up because you wanted to have a carpathian wolf for yourself.

Do you think all people are blond and blue eyed? Most of your animals are used for breeding and bought or only been taken for breeding. I know a lot of people who asked you if you could take their animal as rescued. But it was always the same, you took only animals you could use for breeding. That is the simple truth.

And your buddies Mr and Mrs Eichhorn are fighting against my american wolfdogs and me, but you their friend Jos is starting to anounce breeding with wolf Knut although he is not 1 year old. But I understand. 5.000,--USDollar is a lot of money and you have to get back that money - in selling american wolfdog pups.

In germany we call this Scheinheilig. Means Jos is trying to be like Jesus, but in reality, he is dealer, a wolfdog dealer!

Joswolf 12-03-2012 23:29

The only blond one are you fool. All wolves and female wolfdogs are castrated and in 20 years i took in 25 animals and bred one litter of no pure breed. I bought in all of my life two times a dog for my self. Yes a real self dealer. The only one who took wolfhybrides for him self are you by lieing and cheating and not pay for a wolfdog the way you promised.
I took in animals that would have not lived any longer and that were taken away from autorities and given to me. Your lies will meet you.
I heard you are wanted Christian. Just a matter of time.
How stupid do you think the TWH people are? You really think some one believes you.
And what a dum question if i have resqued any animals did you not say you knew about the Dingo's? Confiscated and took away by court and so came to me. Just one example of you nowing nothing.
What is this forum about??? Is this TWH talk or just a platform for Berges talking bad about personal vetes.
Jos

tupacs2legs 13-03-2012 12:28

On who's authority are the claims that windancer/lorraine's animals are pure?

michaelundinaeichhorn 13-03-2012 15:59

This thread was about Demoniak de la Louve Blanche, wasn't it?
And not about some wolf hybrids from the US or even suspected wolves.

koomak 13-03-2012 22:48

Hello, I have DNA tests proving that Diamond's father is Volos! !

Christian, I am very disappointed with your behavior! You are a hypocrite! why you do me that? ? I thought you could be my friend. . . You made me a lot of harm to me and my babies! ! I do not understand

koomak 13-03-2012 22:50

Jos dont know Frank Capiez!!!

Joswolf 13-03-2012 23:36

Are you Frank Capiez? I mean sure i know Frank Capiez or i know one Frank Capiez and he has or had the wolfmix. Do you want his phone number?
Like 003366389.... and a bit. I never met him in person but talked on the phone about the wolf TWH mix several times after i got his number and talked about the hybrid. I just cared to know if the animal was doing ok but do not come up with this nonsense.
Jos

koomak 14-03-2012 00:06

Jos,
Excuse me, I meant that you've never met in person

furyos 14-03-2012 00:13

Goodnight everybody ... Sophie call me to read last news from the big drama story WD and cie ... Mister jos really I am very curious to know who are you .. Do you have some pictures of me and you ... One of this dog I have from you or anything else than my phone cose all the world have it on my web site or in database ... How is my home / how I speack ( German / english etc with you ) give me please more details really .. I have no secret to hide from you because I never hear or meet you in my life ...for my so nice demoniac
Sorry but if he came from you I
M so curious to see parents or sister etc etc ... And how explain DNA test from
Volos .. You have Volos in your kennel too ???? Really sure mister bergues is not my friend and not yours too but this story is a real curious story ... Give me just a detail ... To prove anything on this ... My car for exemple when I visit you or my family ( because I travel always with one of them ) if not sorry but I don t understand your game ... Really ... Best regards to
You .. And really curious to read you ...Frank capiez

furyos 14-03-2012 00:18

Goodnight everybody ... Thanks to Sophie to call me to read this new drama story on this famous wolfdog forum .. Mister jos .. When i meet you / speack With you or buy a dog from you ..??

hekate 14-03-2012 00:39

Franck can't post because its account is moderated. He asked me to post that for him.



Goodnight everybody ... Thanks to Sophie to call me and tell me about this new drama story in this famous forum WD ... First Aval mister jos I m really sorry but it s the first time I hear your name ... I m perhaps alzeimer sick but can you refresh my memories ... Can you give to me some details how I meet you to buy this dog / any detail will be nice / my car / my home description / my family ( because I travel always with one of them ) give my phone is really not a prove for anybody. ( it s on web site / database every where on Internet ) you know my job perhaps ... Really I m curious / if you speak to me I will be very proud to know when / I speack with just one breeder in Germany and meet him ... And his wife ( platz ) that s all ... For my favorite demoniak diamond can you give to me some pictures when you sale him to compare with mine ( because I have a lot ) and how you explain Volos in his DNA ?? You have Volos in your place in the pass ?? I don t understand why you lie ?? Mr bergues is not my friend like not yours ... But give to him this litle story to give to you a Good publicity is not nice ... You need it ? I wait impatiently some pictures of me or any good prove ... If not please stay in your place like I stay in mine ... I really wish for you the best of the best . For me and my friends all is ok thank you ... Best regards .. Frank capiez

hekate 14-03-2012 01:02

Franck cannot post directly, his messages are visible only some hour later.

Joswolf 14-03-2012 07:36

Frank Capiez who had my wolfdogmix did speak fine English when i spoke with him. Who are you fooling around and asking if i had Demoniak, sorry i never said that i never seen that dog. And i never seen the so called parents but have you no eyes? Can you not tell an TWH from a mix. Or did a wild wolf climb the fence over night? The breeders who have TWH you think they are all stupid? And Frank i do not know you site and do not even know you had one. Can somebody tell me the HP?
But for the French, first try to read or use better translater. I never seen Demoniak. I never said i did. I only gave away a mix that somebody els brought to France. So not by me. I only called a few times to ask if he was doing ok. And the Frank from that phone number does very well know me. But you can contact me privately if you wish. Only not today.
My data is on www.wolf-auffang.de
My only concern was that the dog had a good life.
Jos

Joswolf 14-03-2012 07:38

And by the way i also never claimed Demoniak was from this mix i was not thee when they mated. So i do not know. C Berge may say what he wants he lies more often you should know that by now.
Jos

koomak 14-03-2012 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joswolf (Bericht 425713)
And by the way i also never claimed Demoniak was from this mix i was not thee when they mated. So i do not know. C Berge may say what he wants he lies more often you should know that by now.
Jos

Thanks for your answer !

furyos 14-03-2012 09:20

Goodmorning ... Thanks Mr jos for this explination ... I don t know which guy you speack in English well because my English is very bad and very shook and limited ... Now because of my new job I work on to learn better ... This person who you speack can be me and sure this phone is mine .... I m curious to see your phone bill to see which number you use ... If you can ask your compagnie to sea the details and when ... Sure you do confusion ... If hybrid are in France I can believe it but really it s not me the owner ... For demoniak thanks to put the ligth on because too much Jalousy in this forum from my dogs ... I read your forum where you speack about your work and dogs ( so nice and nicest than some of our breed ) but really I don t see characteristic of mine inside ( I wish in 50 years that ours look like more wolfish ... And with sweet behavior ... This is the most important thing I wish for my breed ) if one day you are close my place ( Paris ) I will so happy to meet you ... Best regards and thanks again for your truth answer ... Frank

michaelundinaeichhorn 14-03-2012 09:47

Why don't you just take blood samples of Demoniak's ( and Doz's of course) parents, as well as of the above mentioned dogs, with independent witnesses and send it to an independent lab?
That's the easiest way to prove that both are purebred.
The same with Ckynai de la Louve Blanche, his sister and a few others.
And maybe the owner of Unkas, the wolf-mix, will participate...
It shouldn't be a problem as we live in the highly developed 21st century...

Michael

furyos 14-03-2012 10:16

Why I have to justify anything on this forum ?? I m free in this world and decide to do what I want / what I think or what I feel ..NOBODY in this forum exist yet to oblige to me anything .. Not you mikael / not Christian / no Margo no Paula etc etc ... We cut in France king head to
Have this freedom ... And you think I need your lessons and advances .... We have all test DNA we need and keep all of this for what we need .... Take care in all your drama stories on this forum ... Big big kisses from my dogs and all my friends in this world .. And from me of course ..:))

hanninadina 14-03-2012 20:53

Jos wrote:

"They used an TWH Wolf-mix which i had and was supposed to get rehomed but i gave him to some one shortly and they let it dissapear and ended up with that breeder."

The topic was asked in american wolfdog forum, where Demoniak comes from. I wrote my personal opinion that he is from Skog, a Saarloos - but of course how it is in wolfdog world, I am not sure. And Jos answered:

"They used an TWH Wolf-mix..."

The Topic was, again, I repeat myself, because some people seem to lose control of what we are writing here, who is the father of Demoniak! And when a guy like Jos wrote:

"They used an TWH Wolf-mix .."

then it is obvious that he meant, they used this wolf mix for breeding as the father of Demoniak!

Or what wanted you express Jos? I know that you have difficulties with the german language, but your english is a bit better.

Now, where you notice that you made a fault, you start again with your lies..., typical for you.

Sophie, you know my opinion, people who want to breed wolfdogs can do that, but please do not cheat with the papers! Of course Demoniak is the best csw in the world! And now, where Jos brought light in the case, everybody could be happy, that there is a marvellous in character and fantastic outlooking F 2 pure csw stud male without any american wolfdog heritage! This is real fresh blood.

Best would be to legalize him for official breeding.

Joswolf 14-03-2012 21:09

Berge Wrote (Now, where you notice that you made a fault, you start again with your lies..., ) and then wants to legalize an F2 how is is this possible when i lie Berge? If you can not read shut up. I do not know who is the father of Demoniac i was never there. I only know Berges friends took this hybride to France and Demoniak is wolfish. I do not know anything more. And i also do not care.
Jos

LadyJessy 14-03-2012 21:31

This discussion is more absurd ...
At first they said Diamond's father was a Saarloos....
Now some say that the father is Skog (Saarloos mix with..?!)
Others say that the father is a wolf..
Others say that the father is a TWH Wolf mix...

How many fathers has Diamond??

If you know something and you have the evidence then proceed with the facts!
But if not, it is pointless to talk about.. do not you think?

Joswolf 14-03-2012 21:47

Now who is Diamond? It is rather confusing. Who is telling al these rumors?
Was it the same one C B?
Jos

z Peronówki 14-03-2012 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joswolf (Bericht 425712)
Frank Capiez who had my wolfdogmix did speak fine English when i spoke with him. Who are you fooling around and asking if i had Demoniak, sorry i never said that i never seen that dog. And i never seen the so called parents but have you no eyes? Can you not tell an TWH from a mix. Or did a wild wolf climb the fence over night? The breeders who have TWH you think they are all stupid? And Frank i do not know you site and do not even know you had one. Can somebody tell me the HP?
But for the French, first try to read or use better translater. I never seen Demoniak. I never said i did. I only gave away a mix that somebody els brought to France. So not by me. I only called a few times to ask if he was doing ok. And the Frank from that phone number does very well know me. But you can contact me privately if you wish. Only not today.
My data is on www.wolf-auffang.de
My only concern was that the dog had a good life.
Jos

I think we can clear the problem easily - there are simply several American Wolfdogs and other kind of crosses and mixes used in France. So we do not have ONE or TWO cheated litters but it seems the pedigrees of many French dogs are fake.

You told about Unkas Flying breeze - the father of the C-litter (for example C'pouschka and Ckinay).

I think there is also information about Demoniak and his mother. Given by...FRANK...
In the year 2007 Frank announced on the internet advertising puppies of wolf mixes:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...5&postcount=16
On the photos was visible very dark (almost black) American Wolfdog female with puppies. Frank confirmed it:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...3&postcount=17
"for the other dog is not wolf but a wolfdog's friend ...and yu can see me with him in few time (new pictures arrives"

The female was very similar to Demoniak's offsprings. She had the same "black" colour as some of them - it is very specilic colour which do not appear by CsW but now you can see it by the French dogs. For example this male: http://www.wolfdog.org/site/en/dbase/d/13035
and this one:
http://www.wolfdog.org/site/en/dbase/d/13036

I think it is the mistake you make. The father of Demoniak is really Volos. But Yvanka is not his mother - the mother is the (almost) black AWD cross (co)owned by Frank and seen on the photos which Frank published on internet.

The same case repeated later:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=83
He advertised again his "CsW" litter showing not CsWs but American crosses with puppies. He removed the photos immediately when people started to talk about it:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...8&postcount=96
It is obvious that he was simply afraid that people will discover the truth...
Here you can see the copy:
http://web.archive.org/web/200804201...coslovaque.php
(on the photo "photo de cette portee de l annee 2005 parle d elle meme" were visible AWD(?) crosses)


Now we can already see that the American hybrids were REALLY used in his kennel and their offspring were registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs (with fake pedigrees). Frank alone gave people the proofs confirming that he is using the mixes. And now we can see the results very well... It is hard to find pure CsW with his kennel name...

But Jos I can bet that your wolfcross which Frank took to France was also used. And he can be father of some other (cheated) de la Louve blanche litters.
There are many untypical dogs already seen in France where is obvious that they are mixes (it is visible already for begginers). I would not wonder if there will be several "lines" of any kinds of mongrels and crosses which were taken to France and put into CsW breeding under fake pedigrees.

Nebulosa 14-03-2012 23:21

Frank, you can keep posting, but as you're an non approved member I need to approve each post you do to it be published, then after post something is only wait a bit that it will be approved sooner or later.

wolfin 14-03-2012 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425831)
Sophie, you know my opinion, people who want to breed wolfdogs can do that, but please do not cheat with the papers! Of course Demoniak is the best csw in the world! And now, where Jos brought light in the case, everybody could be happy, that there is a marvellous in character and fantastic outlooking F 2 pure csw stud male without any american wolfdog heritage! This is real fresh blood.

Best would be to legalize him for official breeding.

read this first:
http://www.csv.sk/sites/default/file...poriadok_0.doc

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425831)
Sophie, you know my opinion, people who want to breed wolfdogs can do that, but please do not cheat with the papers! Of course Demoniak is the best csw in the world! And now, where Jos brought light in the case, everybody could be happy, that there is a marvellous in character and fantastic outlooking F 2 pure csw stud male without any american wolfdog heritage! This is real fresh blood.

Best would be to legalize him for official breeding.

Such dogs will be never recognized as real Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs because of the existing rule of the Slovakian CsW Club (which is used also by the Czech Club). It is what Daiva wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 425851)

and it says that Czechoslovakia Wolfdog is only a dog:
u ktorého sú známe všetky generácie predkov ku 1.6.1999
(deň medzinárodného uznania plemena FCI )


English: "by whom all ancestors till 1.06.1999 are known
(it is the date of the international recognition of the breed)"

Simply said: Czechoslovakian Wolfdog can be called ONLY a dog whose all ancestors are known (and whose were registered in 1.06.1999) and come from the OFFICIAL lines.

All "French Wolfdogs", all illegal and fake crosses, all dogs put in the register (which have "empty" pedigrees or even ONE place empty) ARE NOT considered as "pure" (REAL) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.

Sophie can registed her dogs as Saarloos or she can try to fight for the recognition of this new breed. But her dogs will be NEVER be Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs...

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyJessy (Bericht 425836)
This discussion is more absurd ...
At first they said Diamond's father was a Saarloos....
Now some say that the father is Skog (Saarloos mix with..?!)

I think there is a huge misinterpretation of the word "Saarloos" in the case of CsW.:? I know only one case where real Saarloos were used to be crossed with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. It was already several years ago - I remember the Czech CsW Club planned to make international protest against the "de Louba Tar" breeder due to untypical look of some dogs coming from that kennel. (The breeder used Czech "lines" but its offspring didn't resemble Czech Wolfdogs but Saarloos bred by this kennel). They gave up after they were warned that they can not do anything against the breeder who is also FCI judge and the president of the Dutch CsW Club. Simply a VIP in her country. :|

But it seems that Czech Club was right: some years later (2008?) the Dutch kennel club proved the DNA and discovered that in fact the breeder really crossed CsW and Saarloos. It is a pitty that as far I know they proved only Saarloos Wolfhonds and the pedigrees of the CsWs coming from that kennel were never officially verified. Because some of that dogs look VERY suspicious. And some of them resemble 100% Saarloos Wolfhonds.
Maybe the "purity" DNA test can give us the answer for it. :rock_3


All other description of dogs which are "Saarloos" are not 100% correct. Mutaras are similar to Saarloos because of the same origin. Both are crosses of the American/Canadian Wolves and GSD. The same apply to the mixes bred in France - most of them seems to be crosses of American Wolfdogs or similar crosses - because of it they LOOK like Saarloos Wolfhonds (in the fact they are kind of CsW-Saarloos crosses).
Anyway neither Mutaras and their offsprings nor the mixes bred in France are Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. All of them should loose the pedigrees.

koomak 15-03-2012 00:58

You want what? You want me sterilized Doz? no, she makes beautiful babies too. . . I do not like that look CLTS German Shepherds. . My dogs have a pedegree. I trust the breeders, Frank and Suski. . . Give me serious evidence and maybe I make arrangements. .

koomak 15-03-2012 01:03

margo margo margo . . sarloos, us, mix, Wolf. . . I'm so tired, so tired :-( :-( :-( :-(

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425868)
You want what? You want me sterilized Doz? no, she makes beautiful babies too. . . I do not like that look CLTS German Shepherds..

It is not about the look. But about the FCI rules :?:

These FCI breeding regulations apply directly to all FCI member countries as well as the contract partners. This means that breeding may only be carried out with pedigree dogs which have a sound temperament, are healthy in functional and hereditary terms and are registered with a studbook or register (appendix) recognised by the FCI.

Mixes and crosses used in France are not pedigree dogs. It means using them breaks the main FCI rule. Their offsprings can not (should not) be registered. :| If they were registered then it was done against the FCI rules.

It doesn't matter if the puppies are "nice" or not. They are just NOT Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs according to the definition made by the Slovakian Club - garant of the breed by FCI.

Really it must be solved as soon as possible. Because ALL the French breeders will surfer of it ("thanks" to Frank)). I already heard the voices that some breeders from abroad are thinking to force in their countries the $5 regulation from the STANDING ORDERS OF THE FCI. And I know Slovakia already makes use of it:

Any member or contract partner can refuse to (re)-register in its studbook a dog suffering from hereditary defects or featuring defects which go against the Article 2 of the statutes or a dog which does not comply with the rules of selection defined by the member or contract partner in question.
In addition, the members and contract partners are not obliged to automatically register or re-register an imported dog in their studbook if they consider the pedigree to have been prepared incorrectly. In that case, the member and contract partners should clearly explain to the member which issued the certified export pedigree the reason for their denying


It means that Slovakia will refuse registration of dubious Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs coming from abroad and taken to Slovakia. If the French Kennel Club will not clean this mess - if the pedigrees will be not verified and the crosses will spread as it is happening now - you can be prepared that more countries will follow Slovakia and in the worsest case they will REFUSE to register ALL Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs coming from France
(because of the missing credibility of the French pedigrees).

Everybody can see that there is HUGE problem with pedigree cheating in France. But it must be solved in France. All other countries can do (and for sure will do if the problem is not solved) is to ban ALL CsWs from France.

wolfin 15-03-2012 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425868)
You want what? You want me sterilized Doz? no, she makes beautiful babies too. . . I do not like that look CLTS German Shepherds. . My dogs have a pedegree. I trust the breeders, Frank and Suski. . . Give me serious evidence and maybe I make arrangements. .

money money money :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425869)
margo margo margo . . sarloos, us, mix, Wolf. . . I'm so tired, so tired :-( :-( :-( :-(

Margo? Margo is not important here. You should pay more attention to the words of Christian who is breeding American Wolfdogs and knows then very well. Or to Jos who has many experiences with wolf crosses and he can easily recognize them. His words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joswolf (Bericht 425712)
Frank Capiez who had my wolfdogmix did speak fine English when i spoke with him. Who are you fooling around and asking if i had Demoniak, sorry i never said that i never seen that dog. And i never seen the so called parents but have you no eyes? Can you not tell an TWH from a mix. Or did a wild wolf climb the fence over night? The breeders who have TWH you think they are all stupid?

Don't forget Michael:

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 425457)
Demoniak and Doz are mixes with fake pedigrees. And all their offspring too (hello Gunner :nono)...

In the fact Sophie it is not imprtant how the animals will be called. Sarloos, us, mix, Wolfdog or if you will call them with your new breed name. One thing is important and one thing is sure:
THEY ARE NOT CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS.

martiou07 15-03-2012 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by z Peronówki (Bericht 425872)

It means that Slovakia will refuse registration of dubious Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs coming from abroad and taken to Slovakia. If the French Kennel Club will not clean this mess - if the pedigrees will be not verified and the crosses will spread as it is happening now - you can be prepared that more countries will follow Slovakia and in the worsest case they will REFUSE to register ALL Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs coming from France
(because of the missing credibility of the French pedigrees).

.

Regrettably, I believe that it is not ready to arrive, as says it Daiva: "money, money,money...." :(

michaelundinaeichhorn 15-03-2012 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425868)
. My dogs have a pedegree. I trust the breeders, Frank and Suski. . .

You're not serious, are you?
Excuse my open, you probably call them rude words, but either you're blind, stupid or a liar.
Or you just don't want to see or hear the truth.

Michael

sylvie:)samira:) 15-03-2012 10:06

This is just jealous ..
Sophie's dogs are beautiful and delicious!
worry, ugly dog that is now seen on the breeding.:evil:
I see nothing wrong with diamond!
He is a champion of France, is the standard
is Czechoslovak wd!

koomak 15-03-2012 10:06

Margo. . . .
You think I make babies for money?
You are even more ridiculous than me. . .
You do not know me. . . You are a world I do not like. . I am not a Breeder! !
You, you make babies for money, that's a reality. Thank you God, we are very different! ! Doz will be very little babies, because I love them like my own dog and I fear for them from this terrible world! !
Also, I never sell my babies to breeders. . . You can tell even from Sarka Ariminium it will not have my babies. . His TRAP will not work! ! I decided it was not a good Breeder! ! Her female has got 10 litters! !!!, it's horrible! ! And you say I make babies for money! ! You are ridiculous! Look at you! ! Do not contact me over to have a baby. I'm not stupid! ! I know why you want them! Machiavellian you are! ! I can not cooperate with you, sorry, I can not love you! ! I AM NOT LIKE YOU. . .
I don't like the trap. . .

koomak 15-03-2012 10:10

Thanks Sylvie!

wolfin 15-03-2012 10:15

Quote:

Do not contact me over to have a baby. I'm not stupid! ! I know why you want them!
:))) sory but in our country this type dogs we can catch free- I speak about mix. and any normal people not want a not pure CSV.
I not interesing in mix dog, not now not in future, not afray, I not want any dog who are with falsh blood.
oh yes you not breeder you only person who want destroid breed.

Quote:

He is a champion of France, is the standard
is Czechoslovak wd!
when this animal passt a IPO - I say WOW. now he are ONLY a dog show Ch not moore.
Sylvia I think better about you. or you one writte in personal messages other in forum? FR CH is nothing - all dogs can be a CH if owner have time and money and stupid ambition. This say NOTHING about dog, realy, if you think FR CH make this mut a PURE - you realy childish and funny. This not change anything.

koomak 15-03-2012 10:31

No it's me who will not give you puppies :-) :-) :-) :-)
you do not know for Ariminium? She asked me two babies, one male and one female! it proposed to double the price for the first choice! ! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

wolfin 15-03-2012 10:33

bisnes is bisnes :)
you can breed all who want only not lie about purity this mix and end. moore not interesing, when they not have typical behavior from CSV.

koomak 15-03-2012 10:36

All judges have to give an excellent Diamond, so this dog is perfect in the standard. . .
:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

wolfin 15-03-2012 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425917)
All judges have to give an excellent Diamond, so this dog is perfect in the standard. . .
:-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)

past a IPO :) all alraund give for all dog great opinion, when want judge in next show too :) I work in this, to much good know who is in dog show. for this and is funny this his CH :)

wolfin 15-03-2012 10:41

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/6/1...35-1265553.jpg

this dog too all time have ONLY excelent results in dog show and are a CH. :))))
now see - dog show results is NOTHING

sylvie:)samira:) 15-03-2012 10:50

I know Sophie and she does not take the puppies to Doz, for money. !!!
but you're crazy!??!!
you are really bad to say what!!really!you do not know her!!

Morian 15-03-2012 10:56

we can easily find some (even!) euro or world winners which barely meet the standard. why? becuse 99% of judges have no time to read standards of rare breeds, because populations in different countries are very different too, because even a really defective dog can be shown perfectly, because, becuse, just becuse, and we all understand it, every person which was at list at one show. i can bring pure wolf/saarlos/f1/anything into csv ring and get exellent, but it will not mean that the beast i brang is csv.

wolfin 15-03-2012 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylvie:)samira:) (Bericht 425924)
I know Sophie and she does not take the puppies to Doz, for money. !!!
but you're crazy!??!!
you are really bad to say what!!really!you do not know her!!

I not am crazy, I not mas know she personality, when shes WORK speak about she in the best way. breeding atypical animals with falsh pedigree. Not important sale she or not- I not disput about this, only about falsificate and breed destroing for stupid ambition, not moore.

sylvie:)samira:) 15-03-2012 12:20

Daiva, I do not speak of the mix or not mix! Stardard or not standard...
I speak that you can not afford to judge, a person who does not know!
She loves her dogs...and where the puppies go to stay
so say whatever you want
but she did not do it for money!:evil::evil::evil:
this is not right.
If you want to speak ill of her, do it when you know very well, things and people!!
I close the conversation

wolfin 15-03-2012 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylvie:)samira:) (Bericht 425938)
She loves her dogs...and where the puppies go to stay
so say whatever you want
but she did not do it for money!:evil::evil::evil:

This is what it is doing? in order to better for CSV breed? this is JOKE?

There are two evils in the world and one of them is foolish ambition. they kill more breed than the desire for money. if she loves dogs, and breed puppies who called they a breed name, which are not named? Well can simply give them as mixes what they call the CSV.

koomak 15-03-2012 13:06

Wolfin,
Ok, thank you for the way I work. I just love my dogs, I want the best for them, I do not want to see my babies abandoned. I will not stand, so I try to choose the perfect owners. And they have tests MD, radios. .
For false papers, we dont know they are false. . .
I am not responsible for the old generations.
ME I m doing DNA testing of my babies with their parents! !!
And everyone must continue to test their babies now! and there will no more problems.


NOW 2012, When a person buy a baby, she must ask parents tests

and all will be well for the future of the breed! !!!!!!!!!!

hanninadina 15-03-2012 13:24

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=40

Margo there are always ways of exception. And the maine thing is that Demoniak is a pure csw. Was Rep a dog? All wolfdogs are dogs, guess you know that.

None of your links work... This advertise from 2005 I do remember very well where Franky took pictures from american wolfdogs or even pure wolves to promote one of his first litters.

koomak 15-03-2012 13:26

Thank you Sylvie, it makes me very happy :-) :-)

Daiva knows me a little I think. .

Now I think it is useless to continue this conversation, it will lead to no solution. . .

I think we all will be a Reggio Emilia. .
So see you soon Margo, see you soon Daiva. . . .

Sylvie kiss <3

wolfin 15-03-2012 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425941)
I just love my dogs, I want the best for them, I do not want to see my babies abandoned

Gosh I think people who mate dogs for healty die

Quote:

NOW 2012, When a person buy a baby, she must ask parents tests
and all will be well for the future of the breed! !!!!!!!!!!
future with a falsificate documents and blood?

Quote:

I think we all will be a Reggio Emilia. .
So see you soon Margo, see you soon Daiva. . . .
I think not :)

Quote:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...4&postcount=40

Margo there are always ways of exception. And the maine thing is that Demoniak is a pure csw
eee you joke, pure in who? in pedigree- yes in this paper he is pure. in reality? I think not ( and not I alone)

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425943)
Margo there are always ways of exception.

Yes, but this right have ONLY clubs from the countries of origin - people who created this breed. NOBODY else. Frank can not change it - it is not his property.
Or better: Czech and Slovakian breeders created a breed. What some French breeders do is a forgery. Some kind of "Mercedes made in China" - it seems to be the same but it is not.

BTW Christian, I can really imagine the war which would start if for example Czech breeders will start to change the standard of French Berger de Brie.... :twisted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425943)
And the maine thing is that Demoniak is a pure csw.

No, he is not. His puppies are EXTEMLY untypical. Not ven one is similar to a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. He can be registered as pure Saarloos because his offsprings a very similar to dogs of this breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425943)
This advertise from 2005 I do remember very well where Franky took pictures from american wolfdogs or even pure wolves to promote one of his first litters.

Christian, look on the facts: friends of Frank (and he also) have American Wolfdogs. He is advertising his litters with photos of American Wolfdogs. Surprisingly his dogs are starting to look like those crosses.... :rock_3
And there are more and more atypical dogs appearing there.

We have two solutions:
The French land is contaminated with radioactive waste and the dogs are mutating there very fast.... :rock_3 (the question is only: why only Franks dog are mutating? 8)) OR somebody is cheating with the pedigrees....

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425944)
I think we all will be a Reggio Emilia. .
So see you soon Margo, see you soon Daiva. . . .

Wait - what is in Reggio? I heard about European CsW Show. But it seems it will be "Csw, crosses and mixes show".... :lol:

hanninadina 15-03-2012 21:39

Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

I wrote it several times, with people like you there would be no csw breed! Karel Hartl was an open minded person who tried a new thing - new after Mr. Saarloos.

yukidomari 15-03-2012 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

That's not my understanding of the word 'breed' and 'pure-breed'.

A CsV is not a Carpathian wolf nor does it need to be closely related to one. It is a dog breed bred from not only Carpathian Wolves but also German Shepherd Dogs. It is a human construct, a man-made dog breed.

And though I don't think I will take any IPO exams with my dog, I still want the dog to have a temperament suitable for working and training in other things. I don't want simply a dog who can stay at home outside of kennels. There are dogs like that already of many companion and toy types.

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

Christian - I have no idea what did you heard about his origin but one thing I'm sure. He is not a high percentage cross of EUROPEAN WOLF. He has American blood.

Look on his offsprings:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/temp/1325008910-712018.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/5/1...24-8498733.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/5/1...10-2345127.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/5/1...35-2503668.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2010/8/1...61-8967131.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/7/1...91-4270364.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Fan...ve_Blanche.jpg

It is obvious that there is American/Canadian blood inside. If it was a European Wolf which they used to make Demoniak then they mixed it with Husky for sure.

I saw many European Wolves and some of their crosses. NONE look like those animals... :lol: I have no idea who told you such lie but kick him... ;)

wolfin 15-03-2012 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
Daiva, Demoniak is a pure csw! He is more pure than any other living csw, because he is much more close to a carpathian wolf than any other csw. Very simple.

very simple, you not are a breed patronat, only one little man.

and it says that Czechoslovakia Wolfdog is only a dog:
u ktorého sú známe všetky generácie predkov ku 1.6.1999
(deň medzinárodného uznania plemena FCI )

English: "by whom all ancestors till 1.06.1999 are known

(it is the date of the international recognition of the breed)"

Simply said: Czechoslovakian Wolfdog can be called ONLY a dog whose all ancestors are known (and whose were registered in 1.06.1999) and come from the OFFICIAL lines.

Quote:

No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.
read a FCI standart. one thime second thime - CSW are with working trial.

Quote:

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.
you make my day :)))) I remember you with cry and in runn when he want with you a speak like a guard dog. I understand this saw moore people and you now feel bad, for this - Dog say in who place is your place.

Quote:

I wrote it several times, with people like you there would be no csw breed! Karel Hartl was an open minded person who tried a new thing - new after Mr. Saarloos.
oh yes, your type only want a quicker destroid this with who work people about 60 years.

hanninadina 15-03-2012 21:54

1 Attachment(s)
Lol, ok ok Margo, hahaha, so I guess I was right and Skog is the father of Demoniak, hahaha.

But to be honest, if you look at the pics from Demoniak and Doz they look almost like brother and sister. Here a pic. And they look on all pics like brother and sister. And I guess, you better know than me, that Doz is a daughter from a carpathian wolf male and a csw.

Wolweryne is a son of CPouchka, who is a daughter of american wolfdog Uncas. That is why he looks in winter coat like typicla american wolfdog.

But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

wolfin 15-03-2012 22:02

ah but I very good member a wolf- dog mix in germany who was close in self and runn from a touch. This type behavior mas have your dreams wolfdog in future? for this think mas begin breed a new breed without agresive and strong CSW dogs blood with who you have a problem to control.

yukidomari 15-03-2012 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425997)
But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

What does a F2 dog behave like? Because if it's anything like most F2s here, it is not suitable for living in the city and going on the bus, to restaurants, public parks, or for taking to train in tracking or detection activities. ..

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

No Christian. You can not write this. The breed is not YOUR property. And also not the property of French breeders or anybody else. NOBODY of you can say: we will change the breed!

It was created by Hartl as WORKING breed. And the character is described in the breed standard:
Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions. Fearless and courageous. Suspicious. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

So you can ONLY breed dogs which match the standard. If you will breed other dogs (with timid, indifferent character) which are only good as sofa dogs - you will breed UNTYPICAL CsWs.

If you, or anybody else do not like this character then there is only one solution: STOP to breed CsW. Switch to Saarloos or create an own breed.

An example - if you will buy a Ferrari and you will decide that the car is "DANGEROUS" because it is TOO FAST. And you will change the engine: if you will remove the 620HP engine and you will put there the Daewoo Tico 41HP motor and later you will try to sell this car as "better - more safe - version of Ferrari" believe me: the Ferrari company will sue you! You know why... Because what you are selling is no more a Ferrari but a counterfeit of Ferrari.

The same with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. It was a project done by the Czechoslovakian Army (nowday it would be protected by the copyright law and for sure marked with trademark). There are only 5 lines of CzWs and ONLY dogs coming from those lines can be described as CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. Additionally the Czechoslovakian team of "constructors" of this breed exactly described the characteristics of CsW and publishe it in the breed standard. You MUST follow the rules set by them. If you do something else you are breaking the "copyright rules" by producing counterfeits of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

Which dog? The only F5 I know is the G-litter - Garuda, Geryon, Gibil and Gwaihir visit our meeting frequently. None of them is even a bit shy. And they are extremely friendly...

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425997)
But one is for sure, Demoniak behaves, moves and looks like a F 2.

Yes, I agree with you. When I saw him first time I was thinking that he is a VERY wolfish CsW. I was even interested in him as stud dog but... looking in the pedigree I saw that there is something really wrong. Such dog can not be born out of parents listed in the pedigree - the characteristics of Yvanka de New Flame are missing there (it was the time when people started to speak about crosses and I started to believe in it). I do not believe in miracles. :rock_3

After his puppies were born I knew for sure that he has fake pedigree: the main characteristics of CsW were missing by them... Demoniak can be F1, F2, F3 or F-whatever but two things are sure: he is not a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and he is not a cross of European Wolf. :cool:

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 425998)
ah but I very good member a wolf- dog mix in germany who was close in self and runn from a touch. This type behavior mas have your dreams wolfdog in future? for this think mas begin breed a new breed without agresive and strong CSW dogs blood with who you have a problem to control.

Wait Daiva, I remember it now. I know what Christian means. He is right - the animal which he saw was EXTREMELY shy. But it was not your dog or any from the G-litter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 425998)
And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.

Christian, it was not F5 but F8 (or F9). I know which dog was bounded to the tree and affraid of everything - it was a male from Crying Wolf kennel.

hanninadina 15-03-2012 22:45

1 Attachment(s)
Margo, I can not go along with you when you refer to the breed standard. In germany Berger de Brie - Briard - breeders changed the behavior of briards too. In France the Briards have to attack when they will be challanged. In germany they have to be calm and are not allowed to attack!

But nobody would say, oh you people you are changing the breed standard!

In germany socity dogs must be not only pet dogs, but dogs like being out of plastic with a battery. When people want them to be dog, it is ok. But when they mostly want them to be cool and calm, they cut them down.

I do not know how to explain in english better. But it will be always a problem, if dogs go immediatly at front. Nobody here in germany want this border military dogs! And therefore animals like Demoniak are very important for the breed. And as I showed you in the picture of Doz and Demoniak, they do look like twins! Here is another one.

I do not believe, that there is any american wolfdog or wolf is in him! And by the way Franky does only own two dogs, Volos and Yarl. Wolweryne is with his son and all other dogs are not in his home. But of course I noticed the offspring of Demoniak and Doz does not look really like csw. I was wondering too. Marvellous wolfdogs, but not like csw.... Maybe that is genetics - or you are right.

wolfin 15-03-2012 23:07

hanninadina
Quote:

And it makes me smile remembering that you have one of the last F 5 csw..., so why do you have him? Does he have IPO? I remember at Margos place this poor dog, leashed at a tree, being afraid of all the people around. You do not had an eye for the need of your dog! That is a real shame.
I think you mas apologize to me. This dog about who you speak not was ANY my dog. In this year I have only two CSW and this was this horible animals who not runn away but guard a my car and things. You have in mind dog from kennel from what are one your dog too.

z Peronówki 15-03-2012 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 426005)
I do not know how to explain in english better. But it will be always a problem, if dogs go immediatly at front. Nobody here in germany want this border military dogs!

Nobody say that Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs must be aggressive. :) Look on breed the standard - here is nothing about agression:

Lively, very active, capable of endurance, docile with quick reactions. Fearless and courageous. Suspicious. Shows tremendous loyalty towards his master. Resistant to weather conditions. Versatile in his uses.

Now look on the last sentence - it means you can use them for many types of work. They can make great Rescue Dogs. And Germany is the best example. CsW owners from your country do not make protection work but train their dogs to track lost people. With the French crosses they would be not able to do this.
And there are many possibilities to use CsW.

You can change the way how you will "use" Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. But you can not change their character.

And there are more examples already visible. One of the most winning dogs in CZ and SK last time is a 'walking zombie'. :? People who are interested in breeding 'show lines" and 'sofa dogs' love him saying that he has great character - very calm and timid (he really behaves like on drugs). People who work with dogs and try to preserve the 'right' character 'hate' him because you can not do with such dog ANYTHING. He is useless as working dog. In the case of rescue work: the lost person would die because the dog will have no mood to look for somebody and if he would - the person would die because the anemic dog will need DAYS to run several kilometres. ;-)

And the same I can say about the crosses bred in France. I saw some of those dogs - some were 'zombies', some were scared like Saarloos. Only one showed bound with his owner. The rest was indifferent to everything. They were plants - not dogs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 426005)
And therefore animals like Demoniak are very important for the breed. And as I showed you in the picture of Doz and Demoniak, they do look like twins! Here is another one.

I agree they can be important for THE breed. They can be interesting for THE American Wolfdogs or THE Indian Wolfdogs. I think also THE Saarloos Wolfhond breeders can be happy to have the possibility to use them.
But our breed do not need them. Look - Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were made by crossing European Wolf (from the Carpathians) and German Shepherd Dog (old DDR lines). NOTHING ELSE.

What is Demoniak? A mongrel. There is a bit of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. There is also a Wolf(dog) (American? Tundra?). What else? I doubt that Frank&co. used pure American Wolf - I think they took an American Wolfdogs. And you know that American Wolfdogs consist of several breeds. Most of them unknown but in the most cases American breeders mix wolves with Huskies or Malamutes (they do not use GSD).
Do you think that our breed needs mongrels? Christian, there are many mongrels in our animals shelters. Some of them are pretty 'wolfish'. But it is not a reason to use them for mixing with CsW. Because any mix and any mongrel is just an unknown Pandora box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 426005)
I noticed the offspring of Demoniak and Doz does not look really like csw. I was wondering too. Marvellous wolfdogs, but not like csw.... Maybe that is genetics - or you are right.

I'm right. You will see. It is the rule of genetics. Do you remeber the experiment of Konrad Lorenz who crossed Poodles and Jackals? Always the fist generation was pretty similar. First in the next generations there were diverse animals born. It is the same with France - in the first generation(s) of crosses was pretty similar to each other. Now more and more different "breeds" are visible there. We can see dogs which resemble mixes of Husky and GSD. Mixes of White Shepherd and husky. Mixes of American Wolves. Mixes of Mamamute and GSD.
Real Sodom and Gomorrah :twisted:

Morian 16-03-2012 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by hanninadina (Bericht 425991)
No one needs a csw who is able to pass IPO exams! We do not need aggressiv forward going like to use their teeth csw. We need simply pet wolfdogs who are family dogs and can stay in the house with the people and do not need to put in kennels.

eee? do you still talk about czechoslovakian wolfdog, fci standard nr. 322
"UTILIZATION : Working Dog. CLASSIFICATION F.C.I. : Group 1 Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs. Section 1 Sheepdogs. With working trial."??? ipo or any other exam means that the dog is controlable and trained, not agressive. stop to mix cutlets and flies please :lol:

furyos 16-03-2012 09:39

Waouuuu so much Bad words in this topic ...really you have a real big problem ... For information in France we have an exam to have the pedigree and breed with our dogs ..and the juge accept or not only if the dog is in the standard ...if for you have a wolfish type is not the standard shame on you because it s the standard ... Nothing else are in my blood line than what is wrote on pedigree ... Sorry if you don t have same result with your marriage .... Margo never use same blood and never crying wolf the most wolfish dog in Europe with passo del lupo ...after it s your choie and don t blâme if in few tzars your smaller smaller dog arrive ... Use allways sale Male Like eligo don t give a good example for you Margo who want give best chance to our breed ... Money money money ... Perhaps you can cross him with poodle ... I can give you some French kennel adress ... ;)) best regards drama forum ... For your information if few people like to be manipulate like lamb in this marketing PERON ....not me ... !!!" God save this queen " but not me !!! Best of the best for you ... Frank capiez ... (big honor to be so important in few moment in tchecoslovaquian wolfdog world )

michaelundinaeichhorn 16-03-2012 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 426036)
eee? do you still talk about czechoslovakian wolfdog, fci standard nr. 322
"UTILIZATION : Working Dog. CLASSIFICATION F.C.I. : Group 1 Sheepdogs and Cattle Dogs. Section 1 Sheepdogs. With working trial."??? ipo or any other exam means that the dog is controlable and trained, not agressive. stop to mix cutlets and flies please :lol:

Morian you will find out that the kind of people that want petwolfdogs of beautifull wolfish look simply don´t understand what working abilities mean. For them working ability is there when you can teach the dog to sit for a treat. For people that work dogs it is the stamina to proceed the trained work under all cicurmstances. Nothing to do with aggressiveness but with the will to work and the ability to ignore disturbing surroundings and of course endurance in concentration.
But working dogs need owners to be in charge and funktion as a pack leader, that means they also ask abilities of their owners, to have a show dog is much easier and less challenging.

There is a thread on the German forum "Vorfälle bei der Nacht der Wölfe" that shows very nicely the way of thinking in both groups. Christian with a panicking AWH met people with CSW. Both kind of dogs showed typical canine behaviour and typical "breed"behaviour, one owner wasn´t in charge...

The Briard-example is a very good one. Briards have been working dogs but also had the bad luck to have nice hair. The show Briard lost it´s abilitiy to do the work this breed was created for. We have Border Collies without herding instinct, hunting dogs without hunting abilities, sled dogs without the confirmation needed for pulling sleds
And I am afraid but I think we already lost the battle against the selfish people looking for an exotic dog to show of. We will loose another working breed to get animals that are abused for selfish reasons.
We have so many breeds inclusive AWHs (that are no real breed) that are only bred for looks and showing, it makes me very sad that we loose one breed afther the other to this kind of people looking for another exotic kind of dog to show of, with no respet for the intention of the founders and absolutely no respect for the animal itself.

Ina

Morian 16-03-2012 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 426055)
Morian you will find out that the kind of people that want petwolfdogs of beautifull wolfish look simply don´t understand what working abilities mean.

first. i don't mean working abilities, the standard does. and second. ability doesn't mean diploma. dog must be able to work, but nobody is obliged to. by the way. not too long ago i heard something very funny from some breeder. he told "we breed WOLVES, which must look wolfish, must not bark and work like gsd" :lol: i wonder why do they need csv for this, the breed created for "upgrade" of working abilities, endurance and health of gsd. i don't want to say that csv must work like gsd and this is the main point, i like wolfish csv too, but we must remember about the standard which takes into account both things - and temperament/working abilities, either wolfish look. it clearly describes typical temperament and exterior both.


Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 426055)
And I am afraid but I think we already lost the battle against the selfish people looking for an exotic dog to show of. We will loose another working breed to get animals that are abused for selfish reasons.

this is really sad, i'm agree with you. many people are "purchased" by exotic look, they don't know and don't care about other sides of the breed which are not worse than just wolfish look. now i have pups and 99% of people name exterior only when i ask why csv. but i still don't think that working dog must look ugly :lol: but we have what we have. some people care, some don't. i wonder about another thing: why dogs which don't not meet the standard are still called csv, used in breeding etc. i don't mean demoniak or other mixes only, i mean all dogs which "don't fit" - shy dogs, "plant-alike" dogs, dogs with serious discrepancy in the exterior etc. but this is a rhetorical question, oh yes.

koboldine 16-03-2012 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 426055)
The Briard-example is a very good one. Briards have been working dogs but also had the bad luck to have nice hair. The show Briard lost it´s abilitiy to do the work this breed was created for. We have Border Collies without herding instinct, hunting dogs without hunting abilities, sled dogs without the confirmation needed for pulling sleds
And I am afraid but I think we already lost the battle against the selfish people looking for an exotic dog to show of. We will loose another working breed to get animals that are abused for selfish reasons.
We have so many breeds inclusive AWHs (that are no real breed) that are only bred for looks and showing, it makes me very sad that we loose one breed afther the other to this kind of people looking for another exotic kind of dog to show of, with no respet for the intention of the founders and absolutely no respect for the animal itself.

This is exactly the answer to the question I´ve asked three years ago: Where will our breed go...

I don´t think this battle is lost already, there are many people who want to work with their dogs and who need dogs to be trainable and able to endure, to concentrate...

I´d rather work with a workaholic than with a couch-potatoe...

Koboldine

wolfin 16-03-2012 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by koboldine (Bericht 426064)
This is exactly the answer to the question I´ve asked three years ago: Where will our breed go...

I don´t think this battle is lost already, there are many people who want to work with their dogs and who need dogs to be trainable and able to endure, to concentrate...

I´d rather work with a workaholic than with a couch-potatoe...

Koboldine

yep. I tell you about this who are in Lithuania when I know hystory and situation in my country. People not want a NICE wolfyyyy, they want a CSW with good behavior, when almost 90 % CSW live in city in a flat, mas day per day have contact with transport, people, others animals, mas have good obedience, be social WITHOUT shy, mas and defence theys master if need this when owner back to home in night. They want a THIS CSW from what this breed and born and grown- working - house- family member, not nice plant in garden only.

SARKA 16-03-2012 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 425913)
No it's me who will not give you puppies :-) :-) :-) :-)
you do not know for Ariminium? She asked me two babies, one male and one female! it proposed to double the price for the first choice! ! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)


Questo è il messaggio scritto da Filippo per Sophie su facebook
"11 ore fa
Monica Gambini
  • Sophie m'a demandé qui je Sarka vos animaux de compagnie, vos chiens sont dans l'amour, et en particulier Guerya et Graal. Je ne m'inquiète pas si ils CLC - MIX ou les loups, j'ai déjà une femelle qui m'a vendu Sarka et j'adore cette race et le loup. Je suis désolé pour ce malentendu. Je ne suis pas un éleveur de mon travail et mon mari est un constructeur. Nous vivons à la campagne en Toscane, si vous venez en Italie sont heureux de vous accueillir. La Femme de la CLC (Wapi) que nous avons est pour moi et mon mari comme un fils, est notre ombre. J'espère que vous pourrez comprendre. Désolé pour le français, j'ai traduit avec google.
    Cordialement."




Sophie asked me who I. Sarka said me that your animal are bery beatiful and in particular Guerya and Graal.For me is not important if this dog are CLC-MIX or wolf because I have just one femele from Sarka and I like CLC and wolf too.
I'm sorry for this misurdestanding .I'm not one breeder and is not my work and my husband is a constructor.We live in Tuscany in rural and if you want to come in Italy you are my guest.My femele CLC (Wapi) is for me and my husband like daughter.I hope that you can understand.




I confirm that Filippo asked me two puppies from Doz and Demoniak of Sophie only because filippo like this animal and he promise me don't use never in reproduction,because Filippo is Arimminum Extra Edition owner's but he have official agreement with me and in this agreement is written that Extra Edition will be cover only one male that I will choice.Filippo like my opinion in breeding.
About double price I can guarantee that Filippo was prepared to pay for time normal price for the first choice. But now Filippo confirm me that he does not want puppies free price too .

koomak 16-03-2012 17:18

Hello Sarka

First
I can not take reservations, I have many reservations already, so I do not sell my babies to breeders, families only! !
2nd
You are a liar, you have me phone a few times! ! I telephone my statement that proves it! ! You phone to Jessica several times too! !! You asked a male for your customer and a female for you! ! The price does not matter, the principal was that you have the first choice!!!!
So you asked the secret!!!! I have betrayed your trust! ! You want to know why I have betrayed your trust? Because you are a friend of Margo and Daiva! ! They told me you wanted a baby for DNA testing! ! Sarka why? Why? You do not like animals. .
3rd
also all italiy know that you phone Suski has to have the same blood as Doz last week!!!

Whats happened Sarka, why you are a liar , you are afraid ?

z Peronówki 16-03-2012 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 426089)
So you asked the secret!!!! I have betrayed your trust! ! You want to know why I have betrayed your trust? Because you are a friend of Margo and Daiva! ! They told me you wanted a baby for DNA testing! ! Sarka why? Why? You do not like animals. .

Sophie, I never spoke about it with you. In the fact I do not speak with you neither by phone nor by email. Please show me the proofs - you have my permit to publish our email? (chat?) exchange here on the forum for public view. Because I know nothing like this ever existed.
So please be so king and explain me the whole situation. I do not want to be a puppet in this theater.

yukidomari 16-03-2012 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 426089)
They told me you wanted a baby for DNA testing! !

Great idea, and why not?

wolfin 16-03-2012 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by koomak (Bericht 426089)
Because you are a friend of Margo and Daiva! ! They told me you wanted a baby for DNA testing! ! Sarka why? Why? You do not like animals. .
3rd
also all italiy know that you phone Suski has to have the same blood as Doz last week!!!

Whats happened Sarka, why you are a liar , you are afraid ?

sory but you my dear are now liar- I know Sarka like a good breeder but we not are a friends.
I think she very like animals, but not love a lie and falshing :)
p.s. I too give a permision for publishing this texts about your conspiracy theory

I go to buy a popcorn

SARKA 16-03-2012 19:21

Sophie, is there any problem having the DNA of descendants of Demoniak, Doz and Vendetta x Mephisto? Why should I be afraid?

koomak 16-03-2012 19:22

Ok .. Because you block my words on this forum and can t speack Sophie post for me ... I have some mails from
Sarka who want from my kennel our blood line ( Volos / Dracula and demoniak ) she explain that it was a co owning with some friends ... After i was close to Sophie when she propose to buy 2 puppies from us to dog show and breeding ... Strange file not ?? For bad blood line famous kennel write to us ... Of course our puppies are not use in bad intentions and for that I explain to Sophie that she can dream all the nigth .. Philippot or anybody else can dream on ... Regards lamb of this forum ... Frank capiez ( if some need copy of mails I receive I can give ) money money money ..

hekate 16-03-2012 19:42

Message from Franck, because he steal can't post

Waouuuu so much Bad words in this topic ...really you have a real big problem ... For information in France we have an exam to have the pedigree and breed with our dogs ..and the juge accept or not only if the dog is in the standard ...if for you have a wolfish type is not the standard shame on you because it s the standard ... Nothing else are in my blood line than what is wrote on pedigree ... Sorry if you don t have same result with your marriage .... Margo never use same blood and never crying wolf the most wolfish dog in Europe with passo del lupo ...after it s your choie and don t blâme if in few tzars your smaller smaller dog arrive ... Use allways sale Male Like eligo don t give a good example for you Margo who want give best chance to our breed ... Money money money ... Perhaps you can cross him with poodle ... I can give you some French kennel adress ... ;)) best regards drama forum ... For your information if few people like to be manipulate like lamb in this marketing PERON ....not me ... !!!" God save this queen " but not me !!! Best of the best for you ... Frank capiez ... (big honor to be so important in few moment in tchecoslovaquian wolfdog world )

wolfin 16-03-2012 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Message from Franck

gosh this make my day :))))))) zero info from genetic, linebreed and breed hystory.

martiou07 16-03-2012 20:10

*In France, it is exact that we have the confirmation.
*Only this confirmation is relatively easily made.
*It is not at all a quality security at least in this race.

It is of no use to speak about the confirmation or still about the championship. It is moreover very hypocritical, I am sure not to be the only Frenchman to have heard(understood) some comments of judges on the edges of the rings of exhibition....

To return to the subject there, yes Demoniak is a champion of France, it is I am sure, and me includes him(it) a very big pride for its owner, but for other judges, these atypical dogs born in his breeding are far from being a representative of the race....

Now we can speak for a long time about all this here, regrettably it will arrange nothing....

The only thing which reassures me, it is the experience which I have of the life, sooner or later the truth will come out ..... :rock_3

michaelundinaeichhorn 16-03-2012 20:52

The funny thing is that these people are constantly lying although being aware what they did and complaining about the rest of the world treating them badly.
True politicians of the worst kind...

Michael

martiou07 16-03-2012 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 426110)
The funny thing is that these people are constantly lying although being aware what they did and complaining about the rest of the world treating them badly.
True politicians of the worst kind...

Michael


:lol: I like this comparison :lol:

z Peronówki 16-03-2012 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Waouuuu so much Bad words in this topic ...really you have a real big problem ...

Yes, you right. I have problem with it. As many people do. Not personally - I will not use any of those mongrels. But there is something bigger: you are destroying this breed. And soon or later the breed will get banned in France because of you and your illegal wolf crosses which can be really dangerous. I hope only that this ban will not spread in Europe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
For information in France we have an exam to have the pedigree and breed with our dogs ..

Which exam... a DOG SHOW. Judgement written by a judge. I can arrange a paper for you from a judge that you are breeding sheeps.... :rock_3
In short: don't make me laugh. ;)
We do not need exams but DNA tests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Nothing else are in my blood line than what is wrote on pedigree ... Sorry if you don t have same result with your marriage ....

Thanks God I do not have the same results as you... :D Because I do not cross my dogs with mixes. :lol: Thanks to this you can see by all of them Jolly (and not the 'neighbors' mixes as it is the case by you). ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Margo never use same blood and never crying wolf the most wolfish dog in Europe with passo del lupo ...

Frank, do me a favour: read finally the breed standard.... Read a bit about the breed. :rock_3

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Money money money ..

Yes, you right. But not about me but about you. Lets see who is cheating the pedigrees. Suski who never bred any wolfish dog. Passo del Lupo who has in Italy huge competition of much better breeders than he is and because of it he had problems with selling his puppies. Now you - in France where there are already serious breeders who have pure Wolfdogs and who you are not able to defeat.
All of you would be never able to sell the amount of puppies which you produce. Especially that with your lack of knowledge about this breed you would never be able to breed any wolfish dog.

Now we can read that the people offer you double prices. In the hard time when other French breeders sell really nice puppies for normal amount of money. You see... people want to pay double prices for dogs with fake pedigrees (and they want to pay such huge amount of money because the EXACTLY know that the dogs are not pure but crosses :rock_3). It is the only reason why your business is running and other businessmen who want to make money with dogs are joining you.
But remember: one day the 'purity DNA test for Wolfdogs' will be done and all of these deceived people will come to you and ask compensations. Because you didn't sell them Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but mongrels. And it apply to whole 'Mixes mafia' in Europe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hekate (Bericht 426101)
Perhaps you can cross him with poodle ... I can give you some French kennel adress ... ;))

Please do it - post here the list of French kennels which you do not like and who do not like you and this what you are doing. In this way we will have a list of serious French breeders posted here.... :rock_3

Now serious:
I see you decided to lie till the end - it is your decision. But we know the truth, you and me know exactly that those dogs are crosses and you breed dogs with fake pedigrees. We know what is told next to the show ring, in the phone calls and in the private talks. You are mixing your dogs with mixes and it is well known. For this reason you do really not need to speak with me - you will not convince me because I know that you are a liar. :diablotin But you can still try to convince some poor people on the French forum. Maybe they will still believe in your words. I will not (you know it). And it is boring (although also somehow funny) to read your assurance that the dogs have real parents written in the pedigrees. :lol:


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