Health of the breeds
 

I know at least 3 breeders in Europe which are crossing SWH and American wolfdogs because of the SWH growing up health troubles. I guess not a business issue because these dogs are no more expensive and the production is rather limited. (don't know if they are registered as SWH/CSW or not).
Where is the truth, SWH is an healthy breed ? Discussing with some SWH breeders it seems it's not the case anymore. Checking the linebreeding rate, I don't see how this breed can be healthy in the future (btw also true for CSW, the genetic pool would be enough if breeders respected good breeding rules but it's not the case in huge cases). Sad but true.

You are right Angelika.
I'm still wondering how is true or untrue that SWH breeds get more and more unhealthy ? Is it really true that pra, epilepsy, heart trouble, dwarfs, dead born litters or very few puppy, arise more and more ? One can find statistical health resources to help to sort this out ? Unfortunately it's not as difficult as one can think to have a genetic bottleneck population.

The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds.
What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids.
For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet.

We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in.

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders.

Ina

I do agree with all that (and also for sure for hybrids living conditions...), but in my opinion expecting good breeding practices is not realistic, dogs is a business and especially for dogs the price a CSW/SWH. So I would lean to a severely controlled new blood introduction (the use of DNA-Tests would be necessary otherwise it may only leads to new diseases introduction) ... I guess it's not something that will happened any time soon in CSW or SWH. Let's say in 20 years ?

Ina, I fully support your point of view. Any attempts to experiment with wolf hybrids or any wild animals by people who don't have good projects approved and supported by relevant authorities, who lack contingency plans together with very good scientific background & facillities, accompanied by solid financial backing and who don't ACT OPENLY (e.g. write honest, valid reports, present their findings at conferecnes etc.) is a sign of their total lack of imagination, responsibility and common sense. In my opinion they should be penalized for such deeds....

Besides, the huge suffering that occured in the Pohranicny Straze Kennel of both animals and people who were taking heartbreaking decisions is a reason valid enough to do everything to protect the breed from greedy maniacs.

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general.
And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now.

Ina

hi ina,

please try to keep at the issue of the post.

thanks and cheers,
josh

One wonders where you base that on?
SWD like TWD and any other breed have some health problems. Since shortly there is a test for dwarfism available, something that will not only tell us if dwarfism is really a problem in SWD but will aslo help us with a better breeding for the future.
I do not claim the SWH does not know disease, but the breed is not finished without 'new' blood, only a cooperation with NVSWH and those dogs being used now are enough 'new' blood the breed needs! Cooperation and smart breeding is worth so much more as new blood.
Post like that seem to justify crossbreeding, feed fear and rumour, and lack facts.

I know several TWD with severe HD, know some other with other health problems.. does that justify me generalizing that all TWD are sick.. i doubt.
SWD is more inbred as TWD, but with the data i have on SWD i can in confidence say that i don#t see the future of SWD as negative as some as you do......


But the discussion is smartly diverted this way from pacino kennels to health ;)

I didn´t start in this direction...
Anyway this is no SWH-Forum

Please be all mind open, ok SWH are not CSW, but there are very close (around 20000 genes for dogs, how many shared by SWH and CSW ?). Furthermore CSW can be in SWH situation in some years, worth looking at it throw this angle.
For exemple, SWH have a test for dwarfism, maybe this test would be useful as is for CSW ?

PS: let's open a new thread if this topic diverges too much from Winter's breeding.

I open this new topic on Health and nutrition, we're not talking only of SHW health but of CzW health present and future too, without doubt's we can compare these two breeds because, by the way, seems that some people are trying cause problems in CzW following the same erros made in SHW breed and... using the same excuse.

I see, I must write it again and again. In Czech republic work "breed comission" what watch population of wolfdogs. We know,if some lines, families have some health problems, we care for more dogs in bloodlines, where is less males, females.
How much clubs in Evropa do the same? I think nobody. Who care about all population? I think nobody.
We TRY to keep breed on good health level. Of course, some dogs can have problems now and in the future, but we try care about it very well.
And after it I can read in forum: "yes, wolfdog have problems".....Why theese clubs don´t delete dogs with problems out from breeding????
Why "breeders" use really every wolfdog for breeding? No selection? No care about breed? So- what will be future of breed in Evropa?
Sorry, I know, the topic started about saarlos, but the people write here about CSW. So I feel, I must react....

Because as you could read before, dogs are business :( And at the end of the day, for many of "breeders" it is all about the money.
Just look at the adds even here on Wolfdog.org - how many announced litters from abroad have both parents x-rayed? Not to mention bonitated?

For some breeders, titles are also more than character of the dogs. And the judges are inexperienced with the breed, they often compare CSW with Saarloos, believeing it is normal it is shy :roll: And don´t expect the owners or breeders of shy dogs tell the judge otherwise, so the shy dog gets title and the circus gets rolling... Who cares, that shy dog will produce only other shy dogs, and that titles won´t matter in normal life with a dog who is scared of its own shadow! It´s business, no? :evil:

And about the clubs, well ... let´s say that many of breeders who breed like this, are actually members of board of some of these clubs? So what do you think, can change? :|

Ok but no experts work now in czech "breed comission" :evil:. What you know about genetic ????? You read once Wachtel :twisted::roll: ? You are funny with yours plans (breed comission) without knowledge of breeding way and population genetic....SAD BUT TRUE.

I agree with elf . In SAW is problem (in my opinion) - that Holand club and people don't wan't sold puppies ...SAW are now more imbreed than CZW - SAW have smaller population than CZW, but CZW is all consanquinity too and I afraid it maybe problem in future........Health problems in CZW are increasing.
Both breeds have health problems - wild animals have problems too, but nature selection is more hard than breeders.

Ok but no experts work now in czech "breed comission" :evil:. What you know about genetic ????? You read once Wachtel :twisted::roll: ? You are funny with yours plans (breed comission) without knowledge of breeding way and population genetic....SAD BUT TRUE.

Rocco. I don´t know you personally, you don´t know me. So, please, don´t write about me, don´t write ME....
I can write only this: Present breed comission care about population and about health and it NEVER will do some "Mutara" experiment , etc. like old breed comission....(your friends)

:lol::lol::lol::lol: you don't know me personally ????? very funny :bigok. You care about population :lol::lol::lol: - so I said - you haven't knowledge....and yours experiments are more danger for population than Mutara - my friend :daysmile

experiments? cann say what experiment make Hanka? this is very important to breed :)

Please all, forgot personal matter for a while as it's always what prevent to go ahead. The only way to go ahead against health troubles is to share informations and coordinate actions. For France there is this place (also contains English resources): http://www-recomgen.univ-rennes1.fr/doggy.html ; which centralises the work done in canine genetic area (current research project, known genetic diseases, genetic tests available ...). Very useful, not enough used.

Wolfin and other - stay cool. Rooco want provocate only. For she is only Monika Soukupova, Nada Sebkova and Jindra Jedlicka only the people, who are CsW experts. Did you hear just the names ? Yes - Mutara group. :D

I don't know Rocco, I do not pretend I am a CsW expert, I am not involved in any group or experiment, but... based on genetic rules I agree with this:

Comparing with other (older) breeds the CsW does not have a big gene poule (which CsW has for example not Rep in his ancestors?)
On this moment I know some incidental health problems in CsW breed that were in the past also “incidental” in Saarloos breed.
So I think we all have to register and share honest the health info about the breed.

But when there is hardly any (public) health info for CsW breeders outside CZ it is very difficult to breed in the right way! I understand what you are writing about some clubs and breeders outside CZ. But I think there are also more breeders like me, who really care about the future of the breed and want to breed in a good way. But for them it is difficult, because they don’t have all the info you have in CZ.

I agree that there are breeders and clubs like you mentioned. So I am glad you are a member of the board of the Belgium club. :) Maybe your club can change the impression that all clubs and breeders in west Europe don’t want the best for the breed.

And I agree with this. Nature selection is not only more hard, but also in nature genes will be more spread. And the missing of these two facts are the reason why there are so much problems in several breeds.
But when breeders in several countries will share honest health information and will work together, a lot of breeds will have a better future!

For example In the saarloos breed some people did make a good start with making a DNA database for the breed (and so in future they can better look for DNA markers for genetic problems). In Holland I did ask the Dutch CsW club to start a breeder discussion about the possibilities for a CsW DNA databank. And I hope that in future there will come an international DNA database for CsW.

There is an easy start, let's create a site which would collect CSW health information worldwide. Each club, breeder, owner, could put CSW health information gathered. This site could also be useful if a CSW statistical study on a specific point is needed at a moment, collecting informations just by filling a form. Etc ...

The German Club offered this some years ago, we have a breeding software that makes it easy. As far as I know no answer.

Ina

I guess the beginning would be the most difficult, then we could maybe have a "snowball" effect. As a start we would need one person for each country who will collect what the national club already gathered. For example, some months ago the Dutch club focuses on heart trouble, how far they went in their investigations ?
And so on ... this would be a good starting point (we could then add DNA profile, statistical studies etc...). Does the "community" is ready for that or should we wait the breed become in a difficult situation ?

I think that is an excellent idea - hopefully owners would be open and honest when they have a dog with an undesirable health trait, even if they hvae no intention to breed their dog.

at least o n e answer, Ina - mine 8);-)

Ideal will be: in every country can be really working breedcommision in club. It will watch population and it will collect results of X-ray and write list of some defect in population. AAAAnd: for example it will watch, how much males, females is in every bloodline. I know, it is a little sci-fi. But we can have dream to have minim. 5 males in every group. So- every country can help with saving of breed.....
Is it really possible?

they had answers from me too but there was none from outside Germany and not enough from inside (though several).

Ina

Yes but only in the DREM WORLD a breeder would tell the WOLFDOG WORLD that thay have a bad bood line ore dead puppies in there last litter, eaven if it should be god fore the breed it would be bad fore there cash flow.

only a smal prosentage would be truthful.

SAD BUT TRUE :(

Regards / Mikael

Hej Mikael,

what a pessimistic point of view from the north - lol.
Even if only the optimists answer Anthony´s questions it would be a base ;-)

hälsning
Angelika

Yes, but this small prosentage is still much better than NOTHING :)

Yes it would be nice if we lived in a drem world, but in reality I think that the honest breeders will lose buyers and the unserious that don´t report health faults will sell more puppys, and the breed would be more damage.
sens it would look fore the buyers that the unserius ones are the best and the most healty ones and the onest ones will look like the ones whit big problems.

But I agree that a DNA database would be a god idea, that way the breeders will no before the mating and will have easier to choose a combination that will produse healty puppys.

In Sweden you are not allowed to breed working dogs whitaut mental test and HD X-ray. And you are not allowed to mate HD C whit a C or a B onely whit an A. This to prevent HD problems on Working dogs.
Almoste every working dog breeder also do an ED X-ray at the same time, sens about 80% of the buyers request this resalt to.

I hope the roles fore breeding in udder countrys are this hard to ? but I´m not sure ?

Maby FCI are to make breeder roles fore all breeders to follow ?
But maby I´m living in a drem world to :lol:

Best Regards / Mikael

I can speak only about Lithuania, but yes, the HD and ED requirements are the same. The puppies won't get the pedigree in other case. Also the breed club has a right to make their own requirements and recomendations (like bonitation, PRA tests etc.)

I also have a question about the health tests. Of course, you have to make HD, ED, PRA, but what about some other tests, like common blood test, biochemical tests for liver, kidney etc. Does anyone do it before breeding?

DNA test hase become popular fore all breeders in Sweden the last years, but there are no roles that you must yet... But DNA test on dogs are fairly new, I hope that it will be a requirement in the future, but still it is expensive to do and all DNA tests has to bee done individual, and cost extra fore every test result, there fore the breeders (only) test fore common diseases this far or diseases that thay know are in there blood line.

Regards / Mikael

The AKC in the US is quite scary - there are no stipulations that a dog be tested for health, or anything else, before registering or breeding - many purebred dogs have paid the ultimate price in terms of health (physical and mental) because of poor breeding practices. A purebred dog needs only 3 generation pedigree. A breeder at their own choice may "limit" the registration of a puppy being sold (which can be reversed later) so that the puppy's offspring may not be registered in the future, and the puppy may not be shown in conformation exhibits, but most irresponsible breeders do not use this feature of registration, out of ignorance or because the lack of breeding/registration rights is a turn-off to buyers. Responsible breeders examine each pup early, and also follow the pup's development - the "limit" feature is useful for the responsible breeder.

DNA testing is required on all breedings of dogs that are imported, or if a bitch is mated outside of the USA. If 2 AKC registered dogs are bred, there is no requirement to DNA test - besides the health implications, this also scares me tremendously, as we have so many people here with hybrids, and also such a demand for hybrids to be produced from foolish people, in addition to a very "relaxed" attitude about breeding with our laws...

I recommend that the US CsW club (soon to bee) demands DNA test to prove pure blood breeding and to avoid legal problems to, I know I will, sens Hybrids and Wolfdogs under generation 5 (F5) are alegal in Sweden.

To demand HD and ED X-ray are recomended to and DNA tests fore diseases.

But as you say responsible breeder will !!! and hoppfully there only are responsible owners and breeders in the US this far, I believe so ???

Regards / Mikael

Of all of the owners I have met, and/or corresponded with, yes, I believe everyone has very responsible and good hopes and intentions for the breed in the US. However, I do not know of all owners in the US (I am only aware of around 12-13 dogs, though the website says there are 24, and how many have not been recorded on the website as well?), and certainly more CSVs will be imported in time. There is no way to tell the intentions of these owners, or what their "activities" are; one can only hope they are admirable...this is why I think NOW is as a good a time as any to form a breed club in the US - while we have a group of responsible and caring owners, who are willing to learn and do good things for the breed, and before dishonest owners and breeders, hungry for money or status, attempt to shape the CSV's future in the US.

Even with a US club and it's bylaws regarding health, character, working, conformation and DNA testing, very unfortunately, it is still possible to breed an AKC registered litter from a terrible match...:(

Mikael, give Hronec our best (especially from Hronsek!)

Marcy

Thanks Marcy and Hronsek.

Hronec will have his X-ray soon, I´m not worried about the resalt, but I´m worried about the anaesthetize.

If some body has paipers on how to do it, please send it to me, my veterinary wonts it on paper to do it at all.

Best Regards / Mikael

I found this link from Hebridean Wolfdogs to Shoshone...I think there is a planned litter of CSV mixed with ??? coming in UK next month... (I think Titan is a CSV if you explore the website more)

http://www.inuits.co.uk/5.html

In my eyes that site is not a kennel site but a business site. :evil:

/ Mikael

...pacino/ukwolfdogs and cry-wolf

Sorry to say but "they mix it all" - CSW with Inuits, CSW with wolf, CSW with SWD, SWD with Inuits. It´s really incredible :twisted:

Yes thats what it looks like and all fore the money :evil: :evil: :evil:

It also looks like the CsV puppys lives in the barn like cattles. :evil: :evil: :evil:
and thay plan to take new litters but thay still have adult puppies for sale. :evil: :evil: :evil:

/ Mikael

How common is Stomac illness and other healt problems?
 

Is there any statistic about Stomac illness or other healt problems how can bring Csw problems for life or put the dog in that situation that we must put the dog to sleep.

Statistic no exist, only czech breed comission watch some problems, if it is in population.

But then i m looking forward too hear about it from Csw dog owners who healty is your dogs?

Any updates ?

Would be great to have something like that: http://www.vetsci.usyd.edu.au/lida/index.php?Pg=2

Yes something like that :) would be good in a short distance future, I think !!! But can any body tell me which diseases we are to look fore ???
sens I do not intend to wait, I plan to do a DNA test -09, but do not know which diseases that are most common on CsV.

Regards / Mikael