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-   -   Breeding fore Health, Money or Honour ??? (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8994)

Mikael 07-09-2008 16:41

Breeding fore Health, Money or Honour ???
 
Is Money and Honour more important than Health ???

How does the professional breeding plan for CsV look like, genetic / breeding ???

And what kind of diseases has the clubs discovered to be a problem under the years, and are monitoring ???
And how many % of population are caring unhealthy genes ???

What does the clubs do to prevent spreading of hereditary diseases and HD problems today ???
How big and problematic are the HD problem on are breed today ???

How many are interested of the best of the breed, and not just that there dogs go in to breeding at all costs, to prevent losing invested money, time and honour ???

How many are interested of building a DNA database to prevent spreading of hereditary diseases among CsV in the future ??? Where breeders whit healthy dogs can register !!! And buyers can see and better decide before buying a CsV.

Apparently there are some breeders, even if just a few, that are breeding on dogs that have serious disqualifying faults, and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this can do BIG damage on are small population !!!

But as long as the clubs are fighting and not even can decide about the Bonitation rules, its hard fore the buyer to compare and even se the difference between serious and unserious breeder from time to time, especially if some CsV whit disqualifying faults have a good bonitation code !!!

Some breeders on this forum can not even answer a simple question about there dogs or offspring’s whiteout starting a big fight of honour, even if the question is as simple as "Do you have a HD-test result on your female dog ?"

Money and honour are apparently mush mush more important then the health of the breed fore some people !!!

Sad but true, regards / Mikael

WolfWhistle 07-09-2008 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 156969)
What does the clubs do to prevent spreading of hereditary diseases and HD problems today ???
How big and problematic are the HD problem on are breed today ???



You already know that the Swedish Kennel Club have no regulations at all when it comes to CsV, health and breeding... You don't have to do a hip X-ray and the don,t give a s**t if the dogs have D or A hips..

Right now I'm working on a long letter SKK to make them change the regulations (mainly for SWH) and if you are interested to be a part of "that fight" please send me a mail. It's possible to make a difference here if you are stubborn enought ;-).

Ninni

Mikael 07-09-2008 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle (Bericht 157034)
You already know that the Swedish Kennel Club have no regulations at all when it comes to CsV, health and breeding... You don't have to do a hip X-ray and the don,t give a s**t if the dogs have D or A hips..

Right now I'm working on a long letter SKK to make them change the regulations (mainly for SWH) and if you are interested to be a part of "that fight" please send me a mail. It's possible to make a difference here if you are stubborn enought ;-).

Ninni

Hello Ninni

In my papers it ses maximum C whit A, C to B forbiden.

But that is not Skk rouls it is Swedish Working Dog Clubs rouls (Svenska bruks hunds klubben) As I understand thats the rouls to folow for CsV.

Skk makes show dog rouls, but as thay told me it is up to the clubs to make own roles fore show dog, as X-ray exams. But all working dog must do it.

But yes we can fight Skk togheter, I contact you in private.

Regars / Mikael

WolfWhistle 08-09-2008 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 157039)
Hello Ninni

In my papers it ses maximum C whit A, C to B forbiden.

But that is not Skk rouls it is Swedish Working Dog Clubs rouls (Svenska bruks hunds klubben) As I understand thats the rouls to folow for CsV.

Skk makes show dog rouls, but as thay told me it is up to the clubs to make own roles fore show dog, as X-ray exams. But all working dog must do it.

But yes we can fight Skk togheter, I contact you in private.

Regars / Mikael

Hello Mikael!

But the Swedish working dog club do not have CsV as one of their breeds...or am I wrong?? And I guess that breeding C with A and not C with B is just a recommendation and not a rule?!

For the only real rules there is to registre a CsV litter in Sweden is that the parents (if they live in Sweden) have done the MH-test and that you make a DNA-test to confirm that the dogs you claim is the parents of the litter really are that. No X-ray or something like that is needed.

Ninni

Mikael 08-09-2008 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle (Bericht 157052)
Hello Mikael!

But the Swedish working dog club do not have CsV as one of their breeds...or am I wrong?? And I guess that breeding C with A and not C with B is just a recommendation and not a rule?!

For the only real rules there is to registre a CsV litter in Sweden is that the parents (if they live in Sweden) have done the MH-test and that you make a DNA-test to confirm that the dogs you claim is the parents of the litter really are that. No X-ray or something like that is needed.

Ninni

No you are right thy do not have CsV as a breed yet, because there only are one CsV registered in the country :) and no CsV club either as you know. So X-ray are not law yet, but a highly recommended guide line for all working dogs !!! Skk say first we need a club, and then the club will make the rules about X-ray.

But it is good that we need DNA test to prove ho is the parents, because then the step to test fore hereditary diseases at the same time is not big.

But when I say "Clubs" in my question I did not mean Skk, Fkk or the German kennel club neither, I meant the CsV clubs in Europe !
What do (we) do about HD, and what is there breed plans fore the future ! I do not mean to criticise, only to ask :)

What I criticise is that there are no Bonititation Standard fore all to follow !!! and that the Bonitation apparently do not work, sense dogs whit serious disqualification faults can pas whit a good result.

Best regards / Mikael

saschia 08-09-2008 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 157150)
[size=2]What I criticise is that there are no Bonititation Standard fore all to follow !!! and that the Bonitation apparently do not work, sense dogs whit serious disqualification faults can pas whit a good result.

Well it is a problem if thing as that happens. The problems which are maybe a cause for it are several, these I my thoughts on the matter:

1) Not enough judges. And I don't mean any judges - for dog show, the judge can be a person, who has his / her primary licence for any breed and obtained the licence dor CSW only later, and sometimes based only on very dubious knowledge (otherwise there would be no such marks as "too light eye", "too narrow posture" from international dog shows). For bonitation, you need an experienced judge, somebody, who works with wolfdogs already a long time and who know the breed and how it was meant to be. To get judge licence in Slovakia, you need to be active breeder and have 5 litters! That's very hard to do, so now, with Sonya gone, we have only two judges in Slovakia.

2) Tough breeding rules. Breeding rules are made by clubs and they reflect the momentary situation in the population of wolfdogs. Breeding rules need to be tough, so that we don't spread unwanted traits into the population. On the other hands, sometimes it happens that a line of dogs is about to go extinct, because there are no animals from that line, which would be bonitated and wouldn't have some bad traits. So sometimes situation is like this - a dog (maybe last opne in a line) is bonitated and it is found that it is too low, or has no mask, or has bad character or it has bit heavier had/bit open lips etc. Now, judge knows and breeding commitee knows that this is not good, but maybe it is on edge (64 cm - but maybe the dog is standing wrong, character between Ob and Oc, lips not quite open) - so if the judge gives worse mark, this animal is lost for breeding and diversity of the breed goes down. So they decide to put it in notes etc.
The Slovak club this summer decided, that the breeding rules should be less tough. Not that we should use animals with bad traits for breeding all the time. But that if an animal has some bad trait that removes it from breeding, but is very important for its blood or other important reason, that it could be used once, after the breeding committee decides so, and its offspring is thoroughly observed and everything is documented. So this decision might help in motivating the judges to rather give worse marks than better marks, if they feel the animal is at the border, for example.

3) some clubs in some countries, or individual breeders, if the country has no club, do not like the bonitation procedure implemented in Slovakia and Czech republic. And as they are not required by their FCI organization, they do not go for bonitations, or they organize bonitations with for example different test for character. We are not able to make them follow our rules. We have no say about if puppies from their litters should or should not get pedigrees, because this is governed by their FCI organization, not the global one. And it is sometimes very hard to persuade them. There are lot of myths about dog behavior - that for example defence training makes the dog aggressive, or that you actually have to train defence to be able to pass character test at bonitation. There is sometimes also problem with training - for example I think that a lot of problematic behavior of a dog during character test is that being left alone is something very new for it, and the chain makes very strange sound... And I know that leaving your dog tied somewhere alone is not possible in some countries - my friend, when she left her dog in front of a shop in Germany, found it a couple of minutes later surrounded by a mob of people ready to call police and dog rescue, because they thought it was abandoned.

So there are a lot of issues here and not all of them can be resolved in a short time. It is important I think, that we cooperate, that people who have experience go and educate others, that people are willing to listen and discuss without personal attacks. That people try to make clubs and try to understand and believe themselves that there are many things important for breeding and that even if they want to make money, they should follow some rules. But this can also be helped by us, by going and letting know people that for the same money they can get pups from bonitated and X-rayed parents and that they can buy with some guarantee and not a "cat in a sack".

Well sorry for terribly long post, hope I have not bored anyone to death ;o)

Mikael 08-09-2008 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia (Bericht 157184)
So there are a lot of issues here and not all of them can be resolved in a short time. It is important I think, that we cooperate, that people who have experience go and educate others, that people are willing to listen and discuss without personal attacks. That people try to make clubs and try to understand and believe themselves that there are many things important for breeding and that even if they want to make money, they should follow some rules. But this can also be helped by us, by going and letting know people that for the same money they can get pups from bonitated and X-rayed parents and that they can buy with some guarantee and not a "cat in a sack".

Tanks fore the ansers Saschia, and I definitely agree whit the above !!!

Regards / Mikael

Rona 08-09-2008 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia (Bericht 157184)
Well sorry for terribly long post, hope I have not bored anyone to death ;o)

Saschia, you're a very wise person. Thanks for the balanced, reasonable post. :klatsch I wish more people would think about the breed in such a manner as you do... :cool3

of_Mercedes_Dream 08-09-2008 19:56

Hello,
CSW Belgium is one of the west european club trying to convince breeders and owners to follow some rules before breeding. (bonitations, trainings,meetings,...)
Look at our breedingrules www.cswbelgium.com
Sachia, you know it already.
But the club can only ask the people, not command.

We still need support from Czech Rep.and Slowakia but therefor it's necessary that :
a/ both countries work together for the same rules
b/every decission made by those coutries must be translated in English. And I hope the problems with numbers of judges for bonitations will be solved also.

Last year Sona told me that Slowakia was bizzy to arrange some meeting for judges from other countries to show and explain how a csw really must be. Do you know if this is going to happen ?
That is really necessary because some strange judges still think that a csw must be shy.....!!!!!! (heard myself on a show)

greatings
Patrick

Mikael 08-09-2008 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream (Bericht 157236)
Hello,
CSW Belgium is one of the west european club trying to convince breeders and owners to follow some rules before breeding. (bonitations, trainings,meetings,...)
Look at our breedingrules www.cswbelgium.com
Sachia, you know it already.
But the club can only ask the people, not command.

We still need support from Czech Rep.and Slowakia but therefor it's necessary that :
a/ both countries work together for the same rules
b/every decission made by those coutries must be translated in English. And I hope the problems with numbers of judges for bonitations will be solved also.

Last year Sona told me that Slowakia was bizzy to arrange some meeting for judges from other countries to show and explain how a csw really must be. Do you know if this is going to happen ?
That is really necessary because some strange judges still think that a csw must be shy.....!!!!!! (heard myself on a show)

greatings
Patrick

Tanks fore the info link Patrick

I did not know you wonted ALL dog to come, even the bad ones. That´s good to know !

But I ges 90% of the ones that comes go there whit good dogs or good hope ?

Regards / Mikael

saschia 08-09-2008 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by of_Mercedes_Dream (Bericht 157236)
CSW Belgium is one of the west european club trying to convince breeders and owners to follow some rules before breeding. (bonitations, trainings,meetings,...)

Yes, I know and I am very glad. Also German clubs makes bonitations with experienced judges, so everybody can see that it can be done. I must say that it was a very good idea of the Belgian club to make bonitation training and it is very unfortunate that only two people came. But both of them could see that it is actually not much, that good socialization and upbringing is enough with most dogs and that the most important thing to do is to let the dog experience different situations. For both of the dogs the worst problem was that they were not used to being left somewhere alone, but that is so easy thing to train! It's not training actually, it is just making the dog used to such situation.

I do not know details about the meeting of judges, but I hope it will be pursued. On the other hand, judge for bonitations should have extensive knowledge of CSW, because he (or she) does not compare the dogs in the ring, he has to evaluate every dog separately, should know exactly what to expect (and for youth presentation also how the things might evolve) and spot instantly any fault which the dog has. You cannot expect anybody who was not around wolfdogs for many years to be a good bonitation judge and to be accepted as such internationally.

Anyway, the Slovak and Czech club are trying to unite the bonitations and as soon as we reach conclusions, we will publish the results in other languages too.

of_Mercedes_Dream 09-09-2008 14:43

Hello Saschia,
Thanks for your answer.
I had planned to come to the training bonitation but my car was broken. Next time I'll come.
Perhaps we can discuss more about this issue the 4 october in Samorin.
Patrick

Mikael 12-09-2008 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 156969)
Is Money and Honour more important than Health ???

How does the professional breeding plan for CsV look like, genetic / breeding ???

And what kind of diseases has the clubs discovered to be a problem under the years, and are monitoring ???
And how many % of population are caring unhealthy genes ???

What does the clubs do to prevent spreading of hereditary diseases and HD problems and how big and problematic are the HD problem on are breed today ???

/ Mikael


I still would like to know more about this quvestions :confused2

I think in Cesko that CsV are divided into 7 grupes / lines to keep a healty gene pool, are there any body that knows more about this and does anybody know how it is done in Slovak or Italy ???

Regards / Mikael

jennyw1 13-09-2008 22:35

Hello Mikael i have read an old thread here about HD and ED and it says HD 25-55 %...i think some of the answer we can find in old threads...

Navarre 16-09-2008 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 156969)
Money and honour are apparently mush mush more important then the health of the breed fore some people !!!

NOOOOO, we breed only for MONEY!!!!!!
:lol:

Rona 16-09-2008 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre (Bericht 158670)
NOOOOO, we breed only for MONEY!!!!!!
:lol:

I feel disappointed... :rock_3:) Photos of your dogs are so lovely I thought you belonged to the category of those who breed for FUN :lol::lol::lol:

saschia 16-09-2008 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 158675)
I feel disappointed... :rock_3:) Photos of your dogs are so lovely I thought you belonged to the category of those who breed for FUN :lol::lol::lol:

No, I think Navarre ment breeding for having something to spend the money on :rock_3...

Rona 17-09-2008 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia (Bericht 158701)
No, I think Navarre ment breeding for having something to spend the money on :rock_3...

:laugh2_2 OK, I understand...;-), but this was exactly what I meant by "fun" :lol:


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