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-   -   Health of the breeds (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8774)

mijke 01-08-2008 23:38

I don't know Rocco, I do not pretend I am a CsW expert, I am not involved in any group or experiment, but... based on genetic rules I agree with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocco (Bericht 150874)
SAW are now more imbreed than CZW - SAW have smaller population than CZW, but CZW is all consanquinity too and I afraid it maybe problem in future........Health problems in CZW are increasing.

Comparing with other (older) breeds the CsW does not have a big gene poule (which CsW has for example not Rep in his ancestors?)
On this moment I know some incidental health problems in CsW breed that were in the past also “incidental” in Saarloos breed.
So I think we all have to register and share honest the health info about the breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 150853)
In Czech republic work "breed comission" what watch population of wolfdogs. We know,if some lines, families have some health problems, we care for more dogs in bloodlines, where is less males, females.
How much clubs in Evropa do the same? I think nobody. Who care about all population? I think nobody.
We TRY to keep breed on good health level. Of course, some dogs can have problems now and in the future, but we try care about it very well.
And after it I can read in forum: "yes, wolfdog have problems".....Why theese clubs don´t delete dogs with problems out from breeding????
Why "breeders" use really every wolfdog for breeding? No selection? No care about breed? So- what will be future of breed in Evropa?
.

But when there is hardly any (public) health info for CsW breeders outside CZ it is very difficult to breed in the right way! I understand what you are writing about some clubs and breeders outside CZ. But I think there are also more breeders like me, who really care about the future of the breed and want to breed in a good way. But for them it is difficult, because they don’t have all the info you have in CZ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf (Bericht 150862)
Because as you could read before, dogs are business :( And at the end of the day, for many of "breeders" it is all about the money.
Just look at the adds even here on Wolfdog.org - how many announced litters from abroad have both parents x-rayed? Not to mention bonitated?

For some breeders, titles are also more than character of the dogs. And the judges are inexperienced with the breed, they often compare CSW with Saarloos, believeing it is normal it is shy :roll: And don´t expect the owners or breeders of shy dogs tell the judge otherwise, so the shy dog gets title and the circus gets rolling... Who cares, that shy dog will produce only other shy dogs, and that titles won´t matter in normal life with a dog who is scared of its own shadow! It´s business, no? :evil:

And about the clubs, well ... let´s say that many of breeders who breed like this, are actually members of board of some of these clubs? So what do you think, can change? :|

I agree that there are breeders and clubs like you mentioned. So I am glad you are a member of the board of the Belgium club. :) Maybe your club can change the impression that all clubs and breeders in west Europe don’t want the best for the breed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocco (Bericht 150874)
Both breeds have health problems - wild animals have problems too, but nature selection is more hard than breeders.

And I agree with this. Nature selection is not only more hard, but also in nature genes will be more spread. And the missing of these two facts are the reason why there are so much problems in several breeds.
But when breeders in several countries will share honest health information and will work together, a lot of breeds will have a better future!

For example In the saarloos breed some people did make a good start with making a DNA database for the breed (and so in future they can better look for DNA markers for genetic problems). In Holland I did ask the Dutch CsW club to start a breeder discussion about the possibilities for a CsW DNA databank. And I hope that in future there will come an international DNA database for CsW.

elf 02-08-2008 09:03

There is an easy start, let's create a site which would collect CSW health information worldwide. Each club, breeder, owner, could put CSW health information gathered. This site could also be useful if a CSW statistical study on a specific point is needed at a moment, collecting informations just by filling a form. Etc ...

michaelundinaeichhorn 02-08-2008 09:29

The German Club offered this some years ago, we have a breeding software that makes it easy. As far as I know no answer.

Ina

elf 06-08-2008 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 151036)
The German Club offered this some years ago, we have a breeding software that makes it easy. As far as I know no answer.

Ina

I guess the beginning would be the most difficult, then we could maybe have a "snowball" effect. As a start we would need one person for each country who will collect what the national club already gathered. For example, some months ago the Dutch club focuses on heart trouble, how far they went in their investigations ?
And so on ... this would be a good starting point (we could then add DNA profile, statistical studies etc...). Does the "community" is ready for that or should we wait the breed become in a difficult situation ?

GalomyOak 06-08-2008 14:53

I think that is an excellent idea - hopefully owners would be open and honest when they have a dog with an undesirable health trait, even if they hvae no intention to breed their dog.

Angelika 06-08-2008 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 151036)
As far as I know no answer.

at least o n e answer, Ina - mine 8);-)

Hanka 06-08-2008 18:01

Ideal will be: in every country can be really working breedcommision in club. It will watch population and it will collect results of X-ray and write list of some defect in population. AAAAnd: for example it will watch, how much males, females is in every bloodline. I know, it is a little sci-fi. But we can have dream to have minim. 5 males in every group. So- every country can help with saving of breed.....
Is it really possible?

michaelundinaeichhorn 06-08-2008 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika (Bericht 151614)
at least o n e answer, Ina - mine 8);-)

they had answers from me too but there was none from outside Germany and not enough from inside (though several).

Ina

Mikael 06-08-2008 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen (Bericht 151594)
I think that is an excellent idea - hopefully owners would be open and honest when they have a dog with an undesirable health trait, even if they hvae no intention to breed their dog.

Yes but only in the DREM WORLD a breeder would tell the WOLFDOG WORLD that thay have a bad bood line ore dead puppies in there last litter, eaven if it should be god fore the breed it would be bad fore there cash flow.

only a smal prosentage would be truthful.

SAD BUT TRUE :(

Regards / Mikael

Angelika 06-08-2008 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 151625)
Yes but only in the DREM WORLD a breeder would tell the WOLFDOG WORLD that thay have a bad bood line ore dead puppies in there last litter, eaven if it should be god fore the breed it would be bad fore there cash flow.
only a smal prosentage would be truthful.


Hej Mikael,

what a pessimistic point of view from the north - lol.
Even if only the optimists answer Anthony´s questions it would be a base ;-)

hälsning
Angelika

Vaiva 07-08-2008 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 151625)
Yes but only in the DREM WORLD a breeder would tell the WOLFDOG WORLD that thay have a bad bood line ore dead puppies in there last litter, eaven if it should be god fore the breed it would be bad fore there cash flow.

only a smal prosentage would be truthful.

SAD BUT TRUE :(

Regards / Mikael

Yes, but this small prosentage is still much better than NOTHING :)

Mikael 07-08-2008 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 151728)
Yes, but this small prosentage is still much better than NOTHING :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika (Bericht 151628)
Hej Mikael,

what a pessimistic point of view from the north - lol.
Even if only the optimists answer Anthony´s questions it would be a base ;-)

hälsning
Angelika

Yes it would be nice if we lived in a drem world, but in reality I think that the honest breeders will lose buyers and the unserious that don´t report health faults will sell more puppys, and the breed would be more damage.
sens it would look fore the buyers that the unserius ones are the best and the most healty ones and the onest ones will look like the ones whit big problems.

But I agree that a DNA database would be a god idea, that way the breeders will no before the mating and will have easier to choose a combination that will produse healty puppys.

In Sweden you are not allowed to breed working dogs whitaut mental test and HD X-ray. And you are not allowed to mate HD C whit a C or a B onely whit an A. This to prevent HD problems on Working dogs.
Almoste every working dog breeder also do an ED X-ray at the same time, sens about 80% of the buyers request this resalt to.

I hope the roles fore breeding in udder countrys are this hard to ? but I´m not sure ?

Maby FCI are to make breeder roles fore all breeders to follow ?
But maby I´m living in a drem world to :lol:

Best Regards / Mikael

Vaiva 07-08-2008 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 151823)
In Sweden you are not allowed to breed working dogs whitaut mental test and HD X-ray. And you are not allowed to mate HD C whit a C or a B onely whit an A. This to prevent HD problems on Working dogs.
Almoste every working dog breeder also do an ED X-ray at the same time, sens about 80% of the buyers request this resalt to.

I hope the roles fore breeding in udder countrys are this hard to ? but I´m not sure ?

I can speak only about Lithuania, but yes, the HD and ED requirements are the same. The puppies won't get the pedigree in other case. Also the breed club has a right to make their own requirements and recomendations (like bonitation, PRA tests etc.)

I also have a question about the health tests. Of course, you have to make HD, ED, PRA, but what about some other tests, like common blood test, biochemical tests for liver, kidney etc. Does anyone do it before breeding?

Mikael 07-08-2008 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva (Bericht 151827)
I can speak only about Lithuania, but yes, the HD and ED requirements are the same. The puppies won't get the pedigree in other case. Also the breed club has a right to make their own requirements and recomendations (like bonitation, PRA tests etc.)

I also have a question about the health tests. Of course, you have to make HD, ED, PRA, but what about some other tests, like common blood test, biochemical tests for liver, kidney etc. Does anyone do it before breeding?

DNA test hase become popular fore all breeders in Sweden the last years, but there are no roles that you must yet... But DNA test on dogs are fairly new, I hope that it will be a requirement in the future, but still it is expensive to do and all DNA tests has to bee done individual, and cost extra fore every test result, there fore the breeders (only) test fore common diseases this far or diseases that thay know are in there blood line.

Regards / Mikael

GalomyOak 07-08-2008 17:52

The AKC in the US is quite scary - there are no stipulations that a dog be tested for health, or anything else, before registering or breeding - many purebred dogs have paid the ultimate price in terms of health (physical and mental) because of poor breeding practices. A purebred dog needs only 3 generation pedigree. A breeder at their own choice may "limit" the registration of a puppy being sold (which can be reversed later) so that the puppy's offspring may not be registered in the future, and the puppy may not be shown in conformation exhibits, but most irresponsible breeders do not use this feature of registration, out of ignorance or because the lack of breeding/registration rights is a turn-off to buyers. Responsible breeders examine each pup early, and also follow the pup's development - the "limit" feature is useful for the responsible breeder.

DNA testing is required on all breedings of dogs that are imported, or if a bitch is mated outside of the USA. If 2 AKC registered dogs are bred, there is no requirement to DNA test - besides the health implications, this also scares me tremendously, as we have so many people here with hybrids, and also such a demand for hybrids to be produced from foolish people, in addition to a very "relaxed" attitude about breeding with our laws...

Mikael 07-08-2008 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen (Bericht 151838)
The AKC in the US is quite scary - there are no stipulations that a dog be tested for health, or anything else, before registering or breeding - many purebred dogs have paid the ultimate price in terms of health (physical and mental) because of poor breeding practices. A purebred dog needs only 3 generation pedigree. A breeder at their own choice may "limit" the registration of a puppy being sold (which can be reversed later) so that the puppy's offspring may not be registered in the future, and the puppy may not be shown in conformation exhibits, but most irresponsible breeders do not use this feature of registration, out of ignorance or because the lack of breeding/registration rights is a turn-off to buyers. Responsible breeders examine each pup early, and also follow the pup's development - the "limit" feature is useful for the responsible breeder.

DNA testing is required on all breedings of dogs that are imported, or if a bitch is mated outside of the USA. If 2 AKC registered dogs are bred, there is no requirement to DNA test - besides the health implications, this also scares me tremendously, as we have so many people here with hybrids, and also such a demand for hybrids to be produced from foolish people, in addition to a very "relaxed" attitude about breeding with our laws...

I recommend that the US CsW club (soon to bee) demands DNA test to prove pure blood breeding and to avoid legal problems to, I know I will, sens Hybrids and Wolfdogs under generation 5 (F5) are alegal in Sweden.

To demand HD and ED X-ray are recomended to and DNA tests fore diseases.

But as you say responsible breeder will !!! and hoppfully there only are responsible owners and breeders in the US this far, I believe so ???

Regards / Mikael

GalomyOak 07-08-2008 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael (Bericht 151859)
I recommend that the US CsW club (soon to bee) demands DNA test to prove pure blood breeding and to avoid legal problems to, I know I will, sens Hybrids and Wolfdogs under generation 5 (F5) are alegal in Sweden.

To demand HD and ED X-ray are recomended to and DNA tests fore diseases.

But as you say responsible breeder will !!! and hoppfully there only are responsible owners and breeders in the US this far, I believe so ???

Regards / Mikael

Of all of the owners I have met, and/or corresponded with, yes, I believe everyone has very responsible and good hopes and intentions for the breed in the US. However, I do not know of all owners in the US (I am only aware of around 12-13 dogs, though the website says there are 24, and how many have not been recorded on the website as well?), and certainly more CSVs will be imported in time. There is no way to tell the intentions of these owners, or what their "activities" are; one can only hope they are admirable...this is why I think NOW is as a good a time as any to form a breed club in the US - while we have a group of responsible and caring owners, who are willing to learn and do good things for the breed, and before dishonest owners and breeders, hungry for money or status, attempt to shape the CSV's future in the US.

Even with a US club and it's bylaws regarding health, character, working, conformation and DNA testing, very unfortunately, it is still possible to breed an AKC registered litter from a terrible match...:(

Mikael, give Hronec our best (especially from Hronsek!)

Marcy

Mikael 07-08-2008 22:14

Thanks Marcy and Hronsek.

Hronec will have his X-ray soon, I´m not worried about the resalt, but I´m worried about the anaesthetize.

If some body has paipers on how to do it, please send it to me, my veterinary wonts it on paper to do it at all.

Best Regards / Mikael

GalomyOak 10-08-2008 15:10

I found this link from Hebridean Wolfdogs to Shoshone...I think there is a planned litter of CSV mixed with ??? coming in UK next month... (I think Titan is a CSV if you explore the website more)

http://www.inuits.co.uk/5.html

Mikael 10-08-2008 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildenmorgen (Bericht 152092)
I found this link from Hebridean Wolfdogs to Shoshone...I think there is a planned litter of CSV mixed with ??? coming in UK next month... (I think Titan is a CSV if you explore the website more)

http://www.inuits.co.uk/5.html

In my eyes that site is not a kennel site but a business site. :evil:

/ Mikael


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