Italian bonitations
 

Sorry if I ask a stupid question ? :oops:
But what is wrong with an Italian dog with Italian bonitation ?
Is a Czech dog with a Czech bonitation better or worse ? :shock:

I am just saying that just because it is an Italian dog dosent make it better or worse and the if the bonitation is made in Italy or Czech rep. it still dosent makes it better or worse, it depend on the judge to make a good judgement, so if you wanted to make a point who really matters, you should really say : THIS dog/line is good/bad(dosent matter what country it comes from) and the bonitation of this dog is made by a good/bad JUDGE(dosent matter what country it have bonitation from). Otherwise it really makes no sense !
...Unless you are fanatic thinking : absolutly no/all dogs from Italy is good and absolutly no/all judges who have made bonitation in Italy is good judges ?

Greetings Rolf

If you have a look at the database, Rolf, you´ll see Italian bonitations are marked with "x". They are not accepted by the countries of origin.

Hilsen
Angelika

I see your point about bonitation(not that I understand why it is not accepted), but I still don`t see what it have to do with the fact that he is an Italian dog ?

hej!
I´ll send you a pm - and I´ll try in Danish 8):)
hilsen
Angelika

Thanks for your pm ...I see no secrets in your message, so why did`nt you just post it here ?

Greetings Rolf

No, Rolf, I really do not have secrets to share in the www - lol. But it´s a bit boring to repeat myself because there´s the same topic in the German forum http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9686 If you speak German or know a google translator you´ll find Margo´s statement (# 41) about Italian bonitations aso. I share her opinion.

cheers and bye
Angelika

sorry but the link you posted don`t work ?
I have been reading about bonitation in the "differences in bonitation" thread and found out that the only difference in Italian bonitation from others bonitations is that the dogs is not alone during the charactertest, but there is still not answered directly on the question if "the Italian bonitations is recognized as valid by clubs of origin" or if it is only at wolfdog.org they are not recognized ?

I speak and read only very little German language :(

Greetings Rolf

Yes, I know. I corrected it again - obviously I´m too blond 8):)

Thanks for the 2th correction :)
But I still did not get any explanation from this thread regarding why(and if) Italian bonitations is officially not recognized as valid by Cz and Sk breedingcommittee`s or if it is only on wolfdog.org ? as Massimo also have asked about in the thread "differences in bonitations" ....maybe Hanka who is member of Cz breedingcommittee can bring some light on this question ?

If this is a fact, that Italian bonitations is not recognized as valid, I fully understand your statement ....except the part with Italian dogs(this is out of porportions I think). :(

Please keep an open mind ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Margo wrote: According to czech and slowakian rules bonitations (in other countries) are only approved, if they are comparable to the ones in Slovakia and Czech Republic. Italian bonitations do not fullfill the requirements. Therfore the results are not listed in database. Fabio (and some other breeders) do have a big problem with test of character (to be honest - hardly any of their dogs would pass this test). He therefore took care, that test of character in Italy was removed from bonitation - so that extremly shy dogs also could get good bonitation codes.

Thanks, Petra :):)

Thanks for translation :)
This is quit funny, because according to the thread called "difference in bonitation" Cz and Sk bonitations is not all comparable(they jugde in different ways), so they should not even be valid themselves :lol:

This raises some new questions for me :
Where is the limit for how comparable they must be or does this only apply for other countries ?
What variation should other countries follow to be sure that their bonitation will be valid, Cz or Sk bonitation ?

Greetings Rolf

Rolf, regarding the difference between SK and Cz bonitation and any of these with It bonitation - you casn see the difference clearly. Both Sk and Cz have character test. Morover, these tests are quite similar, and the judges are exoperienced, so that's why the two clubs do not have problems accepting each other's bonitation codes. And we are cooperatin in making new and better tests, which would be used in both countries.

Italians (meaning the club, not individuals) do not want character tests, so they cannot expect that we will accept their bonitation codes at face value. Even if I do not consider results of character tests in early german bonitation really true (as I know that the dogs are brought up very differently in Germany that Slovakia, so the same test are not good), at least they do make the test and I as a breeder can decide if I am afraid to use Ob dog or not. Also, if character test is done in the country, then the breeders and owners know what to expect and will learn how to bring up the dogs to get results which really reflect the character of the dog.

I forgot one more thing - I mean here bonitation made according to the italian rules. Many Italian owners see this problem and decided to make bonitation which fullfil the requirement - such bonitations are made for example by the Czech Club (maybe also by the Slovakian Club) according to the Czech (Slovakian) rules but in Italy. In this case results are valid and listed in database....

Margo and Sasha

Thanks for your replies :)

As you might know, I was in Serramazzoni 6.9.2008(at the show 7.9.2008 both of my dogs got 2.place:rock_3) and saw most of this bonitation and there was a character test with some figurant, so this Italian bonitation should be valid ! 8)
...or am I missing something ?

It is not like I have to defend this bonitation(my oldest dog already have bonitation from Cz and my youngest dog was too young even for youth presentation), I just think it is strange that the country with the biggest population of CSW in the whole world don`t get their bonitations recognized and it is a shame, because of thise almost 100 dogs who was at the dogshow, many of them was VERY VERY beautyful and had a quite normal character(I don`t remember any dogs who was extremly shy) maybe one or two was a little shy, but not something that I have not seen in other countries as well.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1...ramazzoek3.jpg

Greetings Rolf

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?
But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ? when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other, I think all(also Cz and Sk) bonitations have to have to be exactly the same before some can point fingers at others with small faults ! ...but ofcourse I am not an expert, very experinced in CSW or member of any breedingcommittee, so maybe I am wrong ?

Greetings Rolf

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs ;-)

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. 8) It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".:rock_3
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?


In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it... ;-)

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

But even a shy/nervous dog you can with lot of training make the dog pass the bonitation(and it will still be shy/nervous in normal life), also "normal" dogs who are trained for defence will react very different than not trained dogs, so thise dogs also don`t show their real character, but only how they have learned to react in this situation by training ! when dogs make bonitation in the same place as where they are normaly trained, It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory(just to use your own words).
After all the character test is not very reliable anyway, how can you compare a well trained dog(IPO or similar) with a family dog who have no training, by the same test and within the 5 minutes it takes.
There is so many factors(upbringing, training, long travel, female in heat, new or known territory, etc....) who play a big role in how different dogs will react in thise 5 minutes the character test takes, that is why I question reliability of the character test.
when that is said, do you still think that this one difference in the bonitation makes such a big difference, considred all the other factors that even an experinced jugde impossible can have a full overwiew about, that it is worser than the Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Still I must say, one is not worser than the other(in my worthless opinion).

Greetings Rolf