Kazan z PS line - back to GSD?
 

You wonder.... :twisted: I understand the idea why Hartl used it but I understand also the point why Slovaks hate Kazan so much.... Why?
If you are looking for really ugly Czech Wolfdogs just find dogs which are near to Kazan or have a lot of blood of Kazan.... :lol: Almost all shepherd dog looking CzWs are Kazan "line"... :rock_3
Over 20 years are gone since Czech people used this dog and you can still see very negative influence of Kazan in untypical heavy heads, short legs, black masks and lympathic bodies....

The idea of refresing blood was good but it was made wrong way.... without Kazan (or by using new blood but of a TYPICAL crossing) the dogs in CZ would be 100x better than at the moment... ;) And more heathy...

I have seen Kazan. It was not soooo ugly wolfdog in real. On the fotos we can´t see movement and character. He was F1 and he had ZVV1 exam. Good for wolfhybrid....Not only look was important, It was almost begin of breeding and wolfdogs with good character we needed too.
Unfortunatelly- not like in present :cry::cry:

Hanka - no dogs are UGLY as animals....:rock_3 I should write is other way: Kazan was NOT a WOLFDOG. It was just a Shepherd Dog. No wonder he made ZVV1 - he heriteded EVERYTHING from his father Bojar 8) (and nothing from the wolf Leidy :roll:) and it is exactly the worstes on him... It would be the same if the last line of CzW would be made ONLY of using a German Shepherd Dog - the same negative result....

About the character.... hhhmmmmm... hard to judge if the agressive character was what the breed needed at that time. And so far I see also his offspring were either agressive or shy... Anyway today you can not breed with dogs like Kazan (which are Oe)...

About the influence on the breed - we were looking in the database for dogs which are "responsible" for the most faults by CzW - for the untypical look by some dogs. You have two main "villains" ;-): Kazan z PS and Ayak z Vlamy... Everyone who have dogs inbreded on these both dogs or whose dogs have a lot of blood of these two dogs: BE SCARED (or VERY careful while breeding)... ;)

When I have seen foto of Kazan on Wolfdog first time, I was surprised, because I remember him a little different. On this foto he is really not "nice":). I tried find some old fotos by me , but I have not.... It is a pitty.
I know, he was sometimes "a litlle hard", but I have seen him in other situation too. For example on the show, where was muuuch dogs (different breeds) and he was absolutly corect in contact with them. His movement was nice for me, not like german sheepdog. And mask and colour?- much "wolfdogs" from begin of breeding had "bad" colour without mask. Now we have nice wolfdogs with white mask, but not always in past was it the same. Especially in Czech :lol:.
I know, some groups of males or family of females are "a litlle hard and more dominant:lol:" -I have theese dogs too, but we need all dogs from "old blood", if we don´t want so strong inbreeding.
Look- how much dogs we have from Ayak z Vlamy or same other "old" males. Not much. For me- blood of Kazan-good, blood of Ayak, good,.......

I'm really surprised to read certain comments about Kazan.
I mentioned him on purpose just to see what reactions would have followed.

Surely he was ugly, bad character...
The slovaks didn't want to use him, but... Was it that crazy old Hartl who insisted to use him? who should we blame for this idea? Hartl?
what would have happened if he didn't insist on using Kazan?
well...many dogs wouldn't have been born for sure.

In particular I invite you to look up these pedigrees....on fourth generation there is Kazan.
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p166-5.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p164-5.html


they are just examples...but strong examples.
I could put many others...but these have "most meaning" at the moment.

Some of what we consider today the best CSW around have in their blood Kazan.
The entire Peronowki kennel would probably not be as it is today without Kazan.
Look up fifth generation
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p1346-6.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p1181-6.html

I am sorry...but sometimes crazy ideas "may" not be so crazy after all....
I am happy Hartl didn't listen to the slovaks in the end...I am happy that Peronowki Kennel exists with some of the best CSWs around.

...I wonder if there will be somebody writing the same things as I am doing now in 10 years about "other" crazy ideas?

I don't know, all I know is that I am too small for all of this...I sit aside and look, observe, wait.
massimo

I don´t blame Kazan or Lejdy for anything. I have fantastic dog from their line - my Cira - and I am perfectly happy with her long legs, fantastic light movement and above all, her self-confident strong character.
She gets natural respect from other dogs by just looking at them, even macho male dogs become all puppies next to her (right, Massimo :rock_3).
She loves people and if her mask is not perfect or eyes perfectly bright, her character is million times more important for me.

I have hard times to see many other wolfdogs like this - but I see many shy, tiny, skinny but "beautifull" jackals today, which were "lucky" to come from the privileged lines of heavy inbreeding on Rep. :boltIf that is not degradation of breed, I do not know what is.

No thank you. I would not exchange my ugly dog :roll: for any of those.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l7...SC_0111_12.jpg

Hello Massimo,
your first question was about reaction of slovak to Kazan x Lejdy. I can´t answer you, because I have not so much informations about it for good answer. Maybe some OOOOOLD member of slovak club:lol:

:lol: Massimo, I know my dogs have Ayak (and sometimes Kazan) as almost all Czech (and many Slovak dogs)... :rock_3 It is not what I mean... :p

You post Reolups - thanks God although there is blood of Kazan and Ayak they go all more to the direction to be more similar to REP z PS ;) And it is their power and it is the reason why they were so huge help for the Czech CzW population ;)

What I'm telling is: if you see anyUNTYPICAL CzW with short legs, open lips, heavy head, long tail, black mask you can almost BE SURE the dog has strong influence of Ayak z Vlamy and/or Kazan z PS. "THANKS" to these dogs we have problems with untypical look of the dogs (of course I don't want to pass over the wrong selection made by some breeders 8)).

I show you what I mean:

- let's take JOLLY

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Jolly_z_Molu_es.jpg

She has blood of Ayak BUT see the numbers: she has almost 5% of REP z PS (who was a very typical dog) and only 1% of Ayak z Vlamy.

Now take for example this dog:

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Eri...atsky_Atos.jpg

This dog has only 3.5% of REP and almost 2% of Ayak...
See the "difference"?

I can show you more or much more... 8) Also by the HD results... 8) But we can disscuss it when we will meet us in person - here on forum I would have to show examples and it will afflict people and their dogs and it is not the point...

Anyway basing on the words of people which were in the board of the club on both sides it was like this:

To a very good looking population (but stronly inbreeded) of CzW was added a new line - Kazan z PS. Slovaks didn't accepted it. So it developed the division which till TODAY is visible also when reading this forum and it is reason why we have Slovak (more wolfish) and Czech (more dog looking) lines. I heard that during the first years the difference was so HUGE that Czech dogs were not able to get nothing better than "very good" note during the club dog shows (what made their breeders crazy and started the stories about "nationalistics Slovaks"). Now the differences are no more visible so much. Why? See the pedigrees - Czech breeders were fighting witht the unwanted German Shepherd Dog look using extremly often two SLOVAK dogs: Gar z Rosikova and Ikar z Krotkovskeho dvora (both of them were strong inbreeded on REP z PS)...

So first the good look was destroyed by adding the new line of Kazan. The excuse was that there is too much inbreed on REP z Ps. But after this new line was added the damage Kazan made was cured by..... adding a lot of blood of REP z PS.... :lol:

The OOOLD members of slovak and before czechoslovakian club are not old people... :lol: I hope we will meet us all during the slovakian summer camp in Hronec. Sitting by the fire we can speak about the history again... 8) The bad feelings and personal hatred feelings are gone (or the people involved in the personal fights will be no more there) so maybe we will be able to make any obiective judgement ...? :rock_3

It would be great if you can find some photos of him....
Anyway the memories are sometimes different than the reality... I remember one of my first visits in Prag - together with Pavel we visited one kennel. I was delighted with the wolfish look of dogs I met by this breeder. There was a huge male and smaller female - fabulous animals... I though... 8)
Years are gone... and I still remeber this feeling... but you know what? The dogs were nor beautiful wolfdogs either very wolfish... :lol: But i have good memories about them.... :)

I posted my message just because you wrote this.
Maybe not all readers know that Kazan has not only produced dogs with many defects but dogs with his blood are also some of the best looking dogs around.
YOU say that it's Kazan's fault for the negative influence and dogs with him in pedigree could even be better without him.
This you cannot prove... and it's a very clever "word game"
If it's bad, it's his fault, if it's good it's surely not thanks to him.

I believe, instead, that Kazan's presence helped avoid the CHATASTROFIC imbreeding on REP which was all around.
I am not so sure that the breed would have been better and healthier without Kazan...actually I'm convinced of the opposite.
I do not agree, on the other hand, that the breed is so bad today that we need fresh wolfblood. Expecially if it's not even the same wolf from which the breed was born.
BUT... I repeat, many people didn't agree with the "Kazan" idea either.

Moreover, to my eyes Czech dogs look, in general, less wolfish indeed... but much healthier than Slovak ones.

One of my favourite females.
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p494-6.html
I even like her daughter a lot
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d6653.html
And her brother is very famous in italy for having one of the best "bodies" ever: (the pic on WD is awful though)
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/p490-6.html

They have lots of Kazan in them.