![]() |
Training Methods - electric collar
Being far removed from the central body of CzV owners, I would like to solicit opinions via this forum on the use of electric collars to facilitate training.
|
I dont have opinion with using a electrical collar but waht I know, is doesnt matter, if is used for CsW or other races. Basicaly is recommended NEVER use electrical collar alone without any experiences with it. Electrical collar is one of the "extreme" training acessories and may be used only under supervision a good experienced trainer. Because have so strong effect for dog, can helps very much but on other side by wrong using can totaly destroyed the psyche of the dog. BE CARREFULLY !!!
Pavel |
Re: Training Methods
Quote:
but....with a CSW you simply can't win a competition...so why use this kind of medioevale torture (yes, very technological, indeed) :cry: |
Re: Training Methods
Quote:
Am seen just such cases as well. But am seen used electrical collar by CsW for eliminate the hunting instinct (the dog run e.g. over the highway for the rabbit) and with absolutely succes - dog listen the command, that dont hunt and his character is very well without any "trace" of electric collar using. Any tool for training must be using with knowledges or experiences. Electrical collar is extreme case and this is reason, why the user must have a extreme high experiences for it. Similary is it by using spiky collar. It can help very much as well but can very fast broken the dog as well. I dont see anything wrong on using this training tools. But everything must be using "with not empty head". An what is most important, the penalty and reward must be always well balanced. After high penalty for something wrong must be a high reward for the excellent training result. Go to training scholl and watch the people there. Mostly you will see, that no ballance between penalty and reward. First group of people penalisated the dogs very hard and if the dog doing something well, then say "good boy" only. Or other extrem - so called "positive motivation" (today very populary in some countries of western Europe), when never penalisated the dog. Both systems are wrong. And on the end I must say, that am not 100% as well, of course. Am tend more to the first group of people and some time penalisated the dog more, then rewarding. Nobody's perfect. :twisted: Pavel |
Training Methods
All of your thoughts are appreciated and are given much consideration. The most cogent being the 'risk vs. reward', or penalty vs. reward. Further, it is agreed that in the hands of a scrupulous professional the animal will live a freer and safer life through proper use of the collar. Living near area of dense population with much traffic can be frightening, thus the need for rigid training. It would be unfair to keep the dog on leash forever, as it would be against her nature not to be free and enjoy. The benefit is for the animal and owner to fully enhance an even better relationship. The collar used correctly is not a cruel device.
|
hello,
the cases where you really need such a collar are very rare and normally you only need it in extrem cases of hunting or aggression problems. There exists a newer collar that uses pressure air instead of an electric shock. In most dogs you get pretty good results with it, but it also should only be used by an experienced person, because on a sensible dog it´s pretty hard and you have to have a very good timing with all of these methods. Ina |
we all agre : the electric collar should be used only for extreme measures and when all other methods are failed.
We tried an E.C. on our arms : a light bite, far lower than a phisoterapic machine...but the result of bad use can be devastating for the relationship between man and dog. Using it on a sennsible dog like a CSW, more sensible than many other dog, is not the right way.(IMHO) for regular training , simply, it is useless...you can achieve the same good results (maybe in more time) without it. at our training field there are dogs (not CSW, we are only two) that win competition or take good places, without any use of E.C.... ...by the way, these dogs seems VERY HAPPY to train ! (seems that at our training fiedl, we are all in the "second group" : more rewarding than penalisating) :D |
electric collar
does anyone has any experience with electric shock collar or even better contain'n'train from INNOTEK?
thanks, miha |
Re: electric collar
Quote:
electric collar was developed mainly for the dogs, used by hunting. By normally training is normally not recommended to use it, because its no sense. If the owner not enought controll the dog with normaly means, then may betrter sold the dog. But electrical collars are using some times by very extremely cases, when by normally systems can be not correct the dogs habits (e.g. hunting instinct, attacking the other dogs etc.). But ALWAYS may be used under supervision of really profesional trainer, which have just experiences with this extremely system. Believe me, I just saw many dogs, they were totally destroyed from misuse the electrical or spiky collar). Whats is your problem with dog, that you think about using electrical collar ? Pavel |
I use INNOTEK and not so happy with them... if u can find Tri-Tronics is better.
My INNOTEK have 7 levels and not so friendly to change levels, with the Tri-Tronics u can change levels quickly. If u want the Tri-Tronics so find this model Tri-Tronics Sport 50S Rugged, reliable and simple to use 1/2 mile range 6 levels of momentary and continuous stimulation No stimulation safety "N" position on transmitter Transmitter contains all controls and comes with lanyard Insulated contact points are made from surgical stainless steel Bigger and brighter LED on collar Easy-On Switch is located on the waterproof collar Collar strap adjusts to fit any size dog Transmitter uses replaceable 9V battery (included) Collar uses rechargeable Ni-MH battery - charger and battery included Basic Training Video and Manual included 2-year manufacturer's warranty - no charges for service, labor or parts It's 266US$ in the US. http://www.rayallen.com/images/d-TR50.jpg |
You're right Pavel.
I think, when knowledge expires, violence proceed with. My opinion with this is, that possibility to use electric just on the right moment is very minimum, almost always "shock" will come too late. (reaction time, like as drivng a car) And for wolfdogs i know and saw within these years, i can't never recommend. -Suski |
What about using electirc equipment (negative reinforcement) when trying to suppress hunting-instinc or actually a hunting situation. Have anybody had success suppressing this behaviour in wolfdogs using this or other training methods? ! With hunting I mean situations with wild prey.
Fenris. |
I have a considerable amount of usage with Tri-Tronics and Dogtra collars here in the USA. It is a misnomer to refer to these collars as shock collars. They are tens units which stimulate muscle tissue and do not cause any pain. They are only disconcerting to the animal. Used properly they enhance the wolfdog's joy of freedom. In a densley populated area they also are added safety for the dog and owner. These devices are like new power tools to the traditional carpenter who resists and fears change. Used properly they merit praise. They are not a painful lesson. This is only my opinion.
John Slawek |
thank you all for your replies.
I must agree with John that one of the worst "features" of the human mind is not to follow progress and study inovations. electric collars went through an evolution decades long and are now quite different from their ancestors. this is what I've found out studying electric collars "theory". I think with modern electric collar dog can exeprience real freedom (which he never will on a leash). My wolfdog has an extreme hunting/killing instinct which turns otherwise calm and very obedient dog (with school finished with compliments) in to a fearsome hunter that "turns off his ears" and hunts (and "kills") anything that is not dog and smaller than him (EVEN CHILDREN RUNNING!!!). Until now he "only practised" but I really don't want to see it "for real". I know a couple of guys, whose dogs "finished" on a leash and will never again experience free moving and I really hope that electric collar is a solution for saving my doggy for a "dog's life" on a leash. thanks again and best regards. |
Hi Daria,
We did it in school with 10m rope and as I said my dog is very obedient and he does as I say instantly in 90% of situations (it is real pleasure to watch him). but it is that 10% that worries me. I don't know about huskies but CsZwolfdog is unpredictable and one can never be sure that the instinct is "killed". better $400 than injured child. thanks and best regards , miha |
Quote:
|
Quote:
the question here is not weather a dog can be a machine or not, but how you can be 100% sure that he won't attack a child. (I hope we agree here - you go in jail for this (at least here in Slovenia)). So, you have two options (I hope): A. a leash B. (I hope) an electric collar my question on this forum was for people who have some experience with electric collars and not for those, who equals an electric collar with an electric chair, because they don't read much. |
Quote:
Pavel |
Hi to you all,
As was written a dog and even a CSW is a daog with own interests and you cannot be sure, he/she will obey for 100%. Even a GSD don't. But you can train them all and it is not necessary to use an electric collor. When your children do not obey you, will you use such a collor also?? And they can tolk to you. A dog don't. Letty |
hi
i agree with letty, i personally don't have expeirience with an electric colar but i consulted my trainer after i read this post. the only dogs that i have seen that were trained with such a colar were unhandble, verry bad tempered dogs. by the sound of your dog it seems to me he is not like that and i wodn't do that to a dog because ther is a 10% chance he might be bad. pain leads to pain my trainer is an amazing trainer and i will gladly ask him anything, if you wish. ray |
Quote:
1 a man can "use" an electric collar on his own neck - it is not a pain collar any more. (read the replies above), but as the users say - more like an invisible leash. 2 I asume that your trainer doesn't have an experience with CSW and/or with a modern electric collar. this is my last reply, because I'm beggining to sound like an electric collar producer, although I only wanted some reports from electric collar users (but got mainly from the rest!) good bye and thanks for the real replies (past and future) |
Hello again,
You just has written, that you wanted to know anything about users with worked with the electric collar. I wanted to tell you, that the electric collars are forbidden in Holland to train with. All dogs which are trained with the electric collars are trained illegal with this collar, so I think that less people will answer you from Holland. Of course I have seen dogs training with this collars and I have to say that they obey very good but after the time they haven't this collar on the neck, they didn't obey as well as they wearing it. Even they didn't obey at all. And these were really sport dogs. So what a sence has this collar?? Greatings, Letty |
When you cant get your dog to listen to you with normal training,you give him an electric collar???
Get real,are you stupid. If your dog goes after wild pray...you keep him on a leash. If your dog cant be trusted with children,keep him away from them. This is not only for Csw but fore all dogs,its as simple as that. |
I do not have any experience with an electrical collar with my dogs so maybe I should just shut up and read.
The fact is that I am trying to understand and would be happy if anyone of you could help me. I go to training with my two CSW 2 or 3 times a week. The training done is very soft, trying to change the way of training each time because our CSW soon get bored, they need each time something new. :ehmmm I started when Oliver was 17 months, so quite grown up. He makes quite a hassle when in contact with other males. With humans he is even to friendly!!! :hand The main thing I appreciate from our training work is the great RESPECT my dog has for me, the great TRUST he has for me, the great CONFIDENCE he has in me. :klatsch :bussi I couldn't think of using an electrical collar, I think it would be TOO MUCH. I like to think that hearing my voice for him should work even better than an electrical impulse. Probably I'm wrong...maybe not. 2 small examples, meaning nothing, just interprete it as you want: 1) the other day a lady from a different training camp came to our camp asking us to use it for 20 mins because her other camp was shut. She has a GS and uses electrical collar. The dog was obeying brilliantly and the lady was kind of showing off... The dog sometimes was not understanding her comands and so making mistakes: she was shouting at him and kicking his bottom :anger :pissed :stupid becasue of the mistakes (she was NOT using the collare at that moment). In our camp NEVER have I seen a dog being hit or kicked. 2) I was with my two CSW in a small fenced area specially for dogs.2 separate areas to keep dogs apart. There were various small dogs (males and females) and so I put Oliver, my 2 years old male in one area and Lunatica, my 10 months old female, in another together with all the other dogs. Oliver is too dominant so I'm scared he would annoy the other males. He would not harm them but just for playing he would toss them around and step on them and the owners don't like that... :heul :bigcry2 :heul Well, while I was in one area Oliver just JUMPED the fence (1.6m) and entered our area where all the other dogs also males, were. I didn't know what to do :ehmmm :confused2 so I shouted SIIIIIT!!!. :scream_3 He sat, instantly. I was amazed....my voice, just my voiced, worked like an electrical impulse... :laugh2_2 Respect works more than electricity!!!! :daysmile :fingers1 Massimo |
Colar
First i'd like to state, if you havent tried it yourself, then dont use it on your dogs.
I'm a kind of extreme type and my dogs, I'm a surfer, always walk without a colar or line ( that is between sheep, on beaches, with goats and other dogs, people). A the start they wanted to play with everybody, eat sheep and goats and bite cows horses and everything that is to big to kill. I didn't know what to do and so I thought about using a e-colar and thats why I tried it myself. I can tell you all, dont use it on your dog. I test it with a shawl on my own neck and had muscle pain for a week (light pulse), and i'm a fully trained guy. Instead i decided to put in more effort and love, while leaving them without colar or line. After 4 months the dogs dont play with unknown people and they dont go for the sheep and goats no more, why? Because I fucking trained and love them. I chose for this dogs, I chose the leave them free, I chose to......... And I choose not to hassle my dogs on a manner that is disrespectfull towards everything we should stand for owning a nature dog. If you cant cope with the character of your dog (thats is emotionaly or in specific situations you made a wrong choise). A dog that listens for a 100%, come on no body is that stupid! Kind regards, Jeffrey |
Re: Colar
Quote:
|
To hopefully enlighten some, I would suggest that you go on-line to www.fredhassen.com and then consider this newer training method in the States. Prior to perusing this site, I will tell you that the collar is $200 USA dollars.
|
I have an 8 month old doberman. I've been taking him for obedience training since he was 10 weeks old. I haven't used the electric collor myself, but they do use it successfully in the traning school I take him to. I've been around the dogs that have been trained with these (other dobermans) and they are not wild, crazy, or unhandable; quite the opposite. It does seem that one can use these collors with success, although I'm sure one could also abuse them as well. From talking to the traininer, they use the electric collor in two cases: (1) to correct a bad behavior (jumping, chasing, etc.) (2) as a training aid to help the dog understand that he/she needs to respond to a single command immediately without any hesitation ( gets a correction right away when no response ). The dog is usually trained and undestands all the commands by the time they start using the collor, but is not necessarily listening/obeing all the time.
If training my dobe with such a collor would give me enough confidence to let him off leash at a park to play with him by throwing some tennis balls or frizbee and knowing that he'll obey even when other dogs/cats/children are around or when he's chasing something into a busy street, I think it might be worth some discomfort to the animal in the long run. In addition, by all means use any other traditional methods that will help to achive your behavior goals like a long line and calling him to come when distracted. Personally I don't think getting yanked by a pinch collor is that much better then getting a small electic stimulation however. I'm not convinced yet myself if I'll want to use such a collor but I am considering it. I'm doing my research now and this is my current opinion. It may or may not change ;) |
I find this measure very drastic, would be more easy to accustom the animal with the child, this coleira is a negative way to teach the animal, you would like that each time that to make something wrong, to be punished with that goes to make to feel a sensation to it ackward, thinks about this before taking any measure with the dog.
|
Hello everybody it's me again. :cheesy: I was just wondering if you have heard of another type of collar thats available over the net. Instead of releasing an electric shock it spray a foul smelling and tasting liquid in front of the dogs face. I havent needed to use it myself but Ive heard good things and it seems less harmful. The sray is harmless and doesnt sting and you can change it to your own formula. Perhaps if you are really worried you can use this. My Akayla( my dog) had a strong prey drive, her previous owner encouraged this. Which is one reason he was going to have her put to sleep. he said she couldnt be trained properly as she was too eager. What rubbish! Within 6 months Akayla has stopped this behaviour and I know I can trust her off the leash. Trust me whan I say training is the best way. Akayla no longer has a taste for motorbikes, birds, cats or small dogs. She would have torn any of these things apart before. Good luck with things, the only person who can really tell you what to do is the dog itself. :wink:
|
All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:35. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org