Italian bonitations
 

Sorry if I ask a stupid question ? :oops:
But what is wrong with an Italian dog with Italian bonitation ?
Is a Czech dog with a Czech bonitation better or worse ? :shock:

I am just saying that just because it is an Italian dog dosent make it better or worse and the if the bonitation is made in Italy or Czech rep. it still dosent makes it better or worse, it depend on the judge to make a good judgement, so if you wanted to make a point who really matters, you should really say : THIS dog/line is good/bad(dosent matter what country it comes from) and the bonitation of this dog is made by a good/bad JUDGE(dosent matter what country it have bonitation from). Otherwise it really makes no sense !
...Unless you are fanatic thinking : absolutly no/all dogs from Italy is good and absolutly no/all judges who have made bonitation in Italy is good judges ?

Greetings Rolf

If you have a look at the database, Rolf, you´ll see Italian bonitations are marked with "x". They are not accepted by the countries of origin.

Hilsen
Angelika

I see your point about bonitation(not that I understand why it is not accepted), but I still don`t see what it have to do with the fact that he is an Italian dog ?

hej!
I´ll send you a pm - and I´ll try in Danish 8):)
hilsen
Angelika

Thanks for your pm ...I see no secrets in your message, so why did`nt you just post it here ?

Greetings Rolf

No, Rolf, I really do not have secrets to share in the www - lol. But it´s a bit boring to repeat myself because there´s the same topic in the German forum http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9686 If you speak German or know a google translator you´ll find Margo´s statement (# 41) about Italian bonitations aso. I share her opinion.

cheers and bye
Angelika

sorry but the link you posted don`t work ?
I have been reading about bonitation in the "differences in bonitation" thread and found out that the only difference in Italian bonitation from others bonitations is that the dogs is not alone during the charactertest, but there is still not answered directly on the question if "the Italian bonitations is recognized as valid by clubs of origin" or if it is only at wolfdog.org they are not recognized ?

I speak and read only very little German language :(

Greetings Rolf

Yes, I know. I corrected it again - obviously I´m too blond 8):)

Thanks for the 2th correction :)
But I still did not get any explanation from this thread regarding why(and if) Italian bonitations is officially not recognized as valid by Cz and Sk breedingcommittee`s or if it is only on wolfdog.org ? as Massimo also have asked about in the thread "differences in bonitations" ....maybe Hanka who is member of Cz breedingcommittee can bring some light on this question ?

If this is a fact, that Italian bonitations is not recognized as valid, I fully understand your statement ....except the part with Italian dogs(this is out of porportions I think). :(

Please keep an open mind ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Margo wrote: According to czech and slowakian rules bonitations (in other countries) are only approved, if they are comparable to the ones in Slovakia and Czech Republic. Italian bonitations do not fullfill the requirements. Therfore the results are not listed in database. Fabio (and some other breeders) do have a big problem with test of character (to be honest - hardly any of their dogs would pass this test). He therefore took care, that test of character in Italy was removed from bonitation - so that extremly shy dogs also could get good bonitation codes.

Thanks, Petra :):)

Thanks for translation :)
This is quit funny, because according to the thread called "difference in bonitation" Cz and Sk bonitations is not all comparable(they jugde in different ways), so they should not even be valid themselves :lol:

This raises some new questions for me :
Where is the limit for how comparable they must be or does this only apply for other countries ?
What variation should other countries follow to be sure that their bonitation will be valid, Cz or Sk bonitation ?

Greetings Rolf

Rolf, regarding the difference between SK and Cz bonitation and any of these with It bonitation - you casn see the difference clearly. Both Sk and Cz have character test. Morover, these tests are quite similar, and the judges are exoperienced, so that's why the two clubs do not have problems accepting each other's bonitation codes. And we are cooperatin in making new and better tests, which would be used in both countries.

Italians (meaning the club, not individuals) do not want character tests, so they cannot expect that we will accept their bonitation codes at face value. Even if I do not consider results of character tests in early german bonitation really true (as I know that the dogs are brought up very differently in Germany that Slovakia, so the same test are not good), at least they do make the test and I as a breeder can decide if I am afraid to use Ob dog or not. Also, if character test is done in the country, then the breeders and owners know what to expect and will learn how to bring up the dogs to get results which really reflect the character of the dog.

I forgot one more thing - I mean here bonitation made according to the italian rules. Many Italian owners see this problem and decided to make bonitation which fullfil the requirement - such bonitations are made for example by the Czech Club (maybe also by the Slovakian Club) according to the Czech (Slovakian) rules but in Italy. In this case results are valid and listed in database....

Margo and Sasha

Thanks for your replies :)

As you might know, I was in Serramazzoni 6.9.2008(at the show 7.9.2008 both of my dogs got 2.place:rock_3) and saw most of this bonitation and there was a character test with some figurant, so this Italian bonitation should be valid ! 8)
...or am I missing something ?

It is not like I have to defend this bonitation(my oldest dog already have bonitation from Cz and my youngest dog was too young even for youth presentation), I just think it is strange that the country with the biggest population of CSW in the whole world don`t get their bonitations recognized and it is a shame, because of thise almost 100 dogs who was at the dogshow, many of them was VERY VERY beautyful and had a quite normal character(I don`t remember any dogs who was extremly shy) maybe one or two was a little shy, but not something that I have not seen in other countries as well.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1...ramazzoek3.jpg

Greetings Rolf

The owner was with the dog for the whole time?

Yes ! ...I did not think of this ?
But is this really so importent, when(I have read and seen) that such famous and experienced jugdes as for example Sona Bognárová, Jindøich Jedlièka and Monika Soukupová have accepted this during a bonitation ? when for example Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Personally I don`t think one is worse than the other, I think all(also Cz and Sk) bonitations have to have to be exactly the same before some can point fingers at others with small faults ! ...but ofcourse I am not an expert, very experinced in CSW or member of any breedingcommittee, so maybe I am wrong ?

Greetings Rolf

If the dog if with the owner, he is with his pack, its make a huge difference, the dog first see your reaction for take his own reaction agains the helpler, if you're calm why would he be scary? You won't be able to see real character of the dog in this way even a shy dog will have more courageous reaction than normal. It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory.
Surelly a really problematic dog will show his problems even if the owner is at side, but you won't be able to evaluate the real character of the normal dogs ;-)

Nebulosa wrote it already... Italian bonitation check if the dog will protect the owner or if the dog will not run away if someone attack the owner (the dog is on the leash so I sure all dogs will pass it because even shy dog can not run away). But it is NOT a CHARACTER test...

Such test says nothing and is for nothing...

Ask Sona if somebody said her BEFORE the bonitation that it will be such kind of bonitation? Of course not... So she decided to make her best and (as it is also by the Slovakian bonitation) she already tested the character during the measurements - it is the reason for worser character codes and also why some breeders get crazy. 8) It is also the reason why Mr. Casseli decided to break the bonitation of Miky (he knew that even after changing the character test the dog will get P14)....

Now the Italian club invite only judges which agree to "cooperate".:rock_3
Now the question for you - could we tell "good judge" about a judge who accept to bonitate as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog animals which are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?


In the second case (height) you are not right because it is not the difference between Czech and Slovakian judges....

Anyway there are some differences - I would not say the differences are between Czech and Slovakian bonitation but mostly between the knowledge of some people who make the bonitations.
Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it... ;-)

But as Saschia write - both clubs work on it and I hope not only the (small) differences will be removed but also that there will be some tests which judges / breeding comittee members will pass BEFORE they can make measurements and evaluate the dogs during the bonitations...

But even a shy/nervous dog you can with lot of training make the dog pass the bonitation(and it will still be shy/nervous in normal life), also "normal" dogs who are trained for defence will react very different than not trained dogs, so thise dogs also don`t show their real character, but only how they have learned to react in this situation by training ! when dogs make bonitation in the same place as where they are normaly trained, It's like you test the character of the dog in his own territory(just to use your own words).
After all the character test is not very reliable anyway, how can you compare a well trained dog(IPO or similar) with a family dog who have no training, by the same test and within the 5 minutes it takes.
There is so many factors(upbringing, training, long travel, female in heat, new or known territory, etc....) who play a big role in how different dogs will react in thise 5 minutes the character test takes, that is why I question reliability of the character test.
when that is said, do you still think that this one difference in the bonitation makes such a big difference, considred all the other factors that even an experinced jugde impossible can have a full overwiew about, that it is worser than the Cz and SK jugdes have different opinions of how to give the code R1(dry type) + the question about 1cm too little in height = P14 ?

Still I must say, one is not worser than the other(in my worthless opinion).

Greetings Rolf

I think it will be very disapointed when a dog (even standing alone) will be scared off this figurant :roll:.
On this picture he has no stick and certain no menace to the dog :rock_3.

Groette Martine.

Well first of all a photo don`t say all, it was just to show that their was a character test, and if you use a stick or not, the dog should react if someone is making an attack towards it(some dogs have bigger comfortzones than others and this is what is tested in the character test in all bonitations).
If a dog is extremly shy/nervous(as claimed earlier) it will for sure not stand all relaxed in this situation on the photo ! ...it would try to get away(even that it can not because of the leash).
Sorry but I am very tired now and will go to sleep, tomorrow I will look closer to all replies and make some more comments :)

Thanks for the friendly tone thise questions have been replied in, I hope it will continue ;-) ...as I wrote earlier, I am no expert or have big experience with CSW, so I am still learning a lot(and hopefully will learn more all life).

Greetings Rolf

Well I don`t give much for the character test anyway(as I explained in another post), so I don`t think this change in the way of how the character test is performed will make a big difference. Another thing is that I am pretty sure that a very shy dog will NOT pass the test even if it is on the leash, it would still TRY to get away(leash or no leash).

All people(also Sona) have the possibility to say no to jugde if it is against her conviction to perform a bonitation, dogshow or whatever in a way that she/he do not agree with(nobody put a gun to her head ...as far as I know ?), about what Mr.Casseli did or why he did it, I don`t know ? because I was not there and I have never spoken with him about it.
I really don`t think it is up to any jugde to decide if a dog is pure breed or not, this must be problem of the kennelclub who have registered the dog as purebreed, the job of a jugde is to evaluate the exterior at dogshows and also at bonitations where the jugde also have to evaluate the character.
Ok maybe it is not the jugdes(I am not all sure who do what in a bonitation), but then it is the breedingcommittee`s who have different opinions about height.
How can one say that one difference is worser than another difference ?
Where goes the limit ? are there any official guidelines for this exact problem ?
If the difference is big or small is very objective, especially if there is no official guidelines for this excat problem.
I am very happy and pleased to hear that SK and Cz clubs are working on it and I really hope that they will come to an agreement on all issues soon and I would be VERY happy if they would take the Character test up for evaluation, so in the future they would have a more wide character test who also takes into consideration the problem about family dogs and trained dogs(IPO or similar).

Sorry for the red color, but I don`t know how to break up the quote in several pieces ? ...so all writing in red is by me !

Greetings Rolf

Italian Bonitation and, character test it is a very serious matter, my English is not as many serious, i wait Massimo for an appropriate translation.. I have personally compared the Italian test, Czech and Slovak, and I have a lot of things to say, talk to you soon..

You are very welcome ;-)
I think non of the Character tests is very serious, they are too small and have a serious lack of ambition :( ...I think all 3 tests could be done much better ! My point is just that when non of them are perfect(or even close) then why make such a big fuss about one and not the others ?
A Danish saying(maybe it is international ?) goes like this : "people should sweep infront of their own door, before sweeping infront of others".
meaning : you should not complain about others who is not perfect, if you are not perfect your self ;-)

Greetings Rolf

It is really really true what you did write Rolf. I don´t understand why people around Margo made that big problem. You had seen german bonitation done by Sona Bogorova. I like her very much. She is a real kind person. But, I cannot understand that she puts real shy dogs with Oc on P1. It were two out of the C litter Zlata Platz. The dogs were real scared. And coming back to main problem. The character test was 3 minutes, 4 minutes. It is nothing!!!

I had to pass character with my briard boy in german club cfh. It needed about 45 minutes for each dog! And not 3 minutes. We had that dog problem from 2000 because pit bull bited a 6 year old boy to death in hamburg. And from that point on we had list for dogs who were not allowed to breed or to bring in into germany. And at that point list dogs had to pass character test. And the briard club test was legaly like from the state character test. But in comparison to character test what is been done in bonitation, it is nothing. So, we all know that the results from italian bonitation were put out of the database since Margo was sure that the Mutaras were brought in the breed. She declares that it is because the italian test is not to compare with czech or slovakian test. But what for? These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

And everytime repeating that Miky Passo del Lupo should have bad character, I can only laugh at. I saw him twice, last year and this year. On his own ground without(!) his owner and he was so sweet and kind to me although he did not know me. A foreigner in his own garden. And he came to me and was like a sweety wanted to be touched from me and was all around me in an absolute friendly way. In a way I never saw before from a csw adult male dog! I hope every csw male would be like him and people would not have problems.

Sorry Margo, I like you very very much and I did enjoy very much you wolfdog camp at the end of august. But you are not kind of objectiv I would appreciate. The italian csw are much more dogs and dogs for people and city than every others. And please I know dogs from your litters which get crazy passing 30 m away with others dogs. Are they normal, afraid of what for? These are all behaviours of single dogs. Nothing to say all dogs out of this kennel are so. So please keep cool.

Sure it is your web site. But please 500 puppies in the year in comparison to 60 in germany, 70 in slovakia and 100 in czech allows much more better selection.

Christian

As Rolf wrote, sweap in front of your doors first please before accusing other breeders. Try to be objectiv. Please, it is christmas time! All the best for you all.

I fully agree with this :jumpie

This is exactly my point ! The character test in Cz and Sk bonitation is ONLY testing if the dog will defend it`s owner and it self, but this really say NOTHING about character, you can train your dog to react correct in these situations, but this SHOULD not be a test of training, but of character ! :rock_3
...so all in all one could say that the name "character test" should be changed to "test of defence reaction" OR the character test should be performed in a much more serious and ambitious way to live up to the name "character test". This is why I think this "small" difference in the Italian version of the "character test" really mean nothing.8)

Greetings Rolf

Some affirmations are true some are false.

It's true that a dog can be at a kind of level conditioned for character test (that's why for the first french bonitation I asked people not to prepare their dog to have a brut results).

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

Interestingtalk about Miky. The problem nowadays is not the talk around the character of Miky, but in France we have a real problem of genetic diversity and population bottleneck on this line, 396 offsprings for Miky, 760 for Cutt.

I see don`t where it is written that 45min. is minimum ? But I agree that 3-5min. is not enough to make a complete character test, but the TIME is not the main issue, the main issue is HOW the test is performed ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.
Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

I did not hear/read about this in the Italian bonitation, but it is apparently like this in the CZ and SK bonitation according to Margo(see the quote below).

I personally don`t think one difference is worser than another, Cz and Sk bonitations ARE different, in Cz all "normal" dogs get the code R1 and as far as I understand Sk only give this code to dogs who are more than normal dry types, then there is the difference with 1cm too little in height and also the difference with index, so in Italy they have a difference in "character test"(which discredit the bonitation) and in Cz and Sk they have a difference in how to write codes(which discredit the bonitation) ....is one better or worser than the other ? I think not :roll:

Greetings Rolf

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!):roll:

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...:lol:
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

This make no sense to me ? when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

One could easily say the same about Cz and Sk, it isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different interpretations. :roll:

When you make such a big number out of what is facts, then please make sure what you write really is facts ! as far as I can read, there was 17 dogs at last bonitation made by "so-called" Italien breed club and at the last 3 bonitations before that, there were 16, 12 and 12 ...I only see 1 bonitation made by you and friends with help from Czech club with 41 dogs, but jumping to this conclution on such a small basis that you write here, is really not objective ! ...please correct me if I am wrong ;-)

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!
I have seen more of you writing about this dog in this thread, please stop it ! ...even that I am very happy for your input, it is not very constructive to write about this dog and brings no light to the subject which is Italian bonitations.

Please keep an open mind 8)

Greetings Rolf

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?
Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?
Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!:lol::lol::lol:

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

I agree. I don't know why hannadina talk about this dog some messages ago...

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.;-)

Rules or no rules, NON of these 3 countries(at the moment) do make exactly the same bonitations and this is my point I think Italian bonitation have the same rules as others, but they just don`t perform it in the same way, just like Cz and Sk don`t perform the bonitation in the same way. If you look at earlier posts and also in the thread(differences in bonitations) you will see that Cz and Sk do not value the same in the bonitation and I will repeat my self : Is one difference worser or better than another ? as long as they are not all the same in ALL countries, they are really not compareble. Another of my points is that the character test which they perform differently in Italy, is really worth nothing in ALL 3 countries for a character test, so I don`t see the Italian difference as a big fault who should make Cz and Sk not to recognize the bonitation.

No I didn`t ask, but I will try to answer anyway ! if you already have a national club for this, then why not use it ? I guess(because I don`t know) that your club is democratic, like the rest of Italy, so why not use your influence as a democratic member(if you are member of this club) to change the way of bonitation, if you have so strong back up from many other members that you stated in an earlier post, it really should be no problem ? or am I missing something ?

No ! the size of succes is not interesting for me, what is interesting for me is why the Italian bonitation is not recognized by Cz and Sk, apparently the only difference is in the way of how the character test is performed, when this test is already very close to be woth nothing in Cz and Sk anyway and not even the the Cz and Sk bonitations is performed in exactly the same way, then I really don`t see what all this fuzz is about ?

This is why I think it is more importent to work together than to work against eachother.

This is a shame for the whole breed, only with cooperation from all parts we can compare the results and I think it is sad if Cz and Sk do not recognize the Italian bonitation and vice-versa, both parts will loose a lot of breeding options in this way, which are not good for a breed with a small genepool.

I surly do keep an open mind, that is why I ask these questions and try not to state facts who really are not facts ;-)
I ask these questions only to get more wise on a subject that I really do not understand.

Greetings Rolf

Sorry if I bring back this thread from being buried long time ago but I missed it and as it is being discussed in Italy I couldn't help laughing for some things I read.

1) it seems Italian bonitation as is done today is NOT recognized by Czech and Slovak club.
this has always been said by Margo, in fact on this site the dogs with Italian bonitation do not have a code but an X. I have never heared a direct statement from Czech and Slovak Club stating it however.

2) what does it mean for a czech and slovak club to recognize a bonitation from another country?
As far as I know, please tell me if I am wrong, a bonitation is usefull to know morphological and character defects of a dog.
In CZ and SK, it is fundamental to have a bonitation if you want to breed with a dog.
In other countries, as in Italy, bonitation is not fundamental so we can breed with dogs without bonitation because it is not the csw club who gives pedigree but the main kennel club.
From what I know, if a Czech breeder wants to use a male from another country, this male needs to have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So..if in Italy there are no requirements for breeding, the czech breeder can use an Italian dog WITHOUT bonitation.

Who cares if Italian bonitation is recognized anyway?
Czechs can use a male without bonitation if it is not a requirement in his country!
As for slovak breeders...how many slovak breeders have used czech dogs?? not many....very little...hardly any! If they don't use Czech dogs i would be surprised if they used Italian or other country dogs (unless totally slovak lines of course!)

As for difference between bonitations in different countries....that is what really made me laugh!
I have seen bonitations both in CZ, in SK and in Italy.
How many others have seen all 3? not even Margo...let alone nebulosa or Angelika....so how can you judge?
Saying Italian bonitation is NOT valid because the figurant aggression is not an agression and the dog is not alone is ridiculous.
Saying CZ and SK bonitations are the same is even more ridiculous.
Agression from figurant in SK (and i've seen 3 different bonitations I think) was far from an agression!! It was a person, often a woman, walking towards the dog, often never looking at it in the eyes, waving a stick.
If you don't believe me...there are video recordings of both cz and sk bonitations and I really would like to see who can say it's equivalent.
Of course...the judges are so good they can judge and weigh according to the different level of agression.... but that is subjective and no longer objective.

As for Italian bonitation validity, it seems last valid bonitation made in Italy according to Margo was made by Sonja Bognarova (2004?)
WHY?? also then there was no agression to the dog...and I know because I bonitated my dog in that occcasion. But Sonja was able to judge anyway.
Why should Sonja (my favourite by far!!) be able to judge although there was no agression and not Monika Soukupova or Jindra Jedlichka (my good friends)? maybe because the last two haven't been in the czech club board for a long time and lost their "influence"?

To my eyes...it's all a matter of politics...useless politics which do NOT help the breed.
I personally will only let Sonja Bognarova officially bonitate my dogs, nobody else. Not because i don't trust the others, but because I see less subjectivity in her eyes then others.
massimo

Hi Massimo,
for who was your questions? I can answer a few your questions, if you want. But only few, because I will not speak about other clubs, countries....
-czech breeder CAN use italian dog, but nobody (mybe 1? ) do it, because we don´t belive italian breeding. We knows about italian kennels, where is something in pedigree and something in reall..... And: people here don´t belive italian results of HD.
-czech breeders use slovak males, because we keep genopool of breed. We want have much males in every bloodgroup. Slovak breeders use czech males only sometimes. Genopool of slovak population is in this moment "before colaps".They lost much "blood". But you must ask about it leadrers of slovak breeding. I have only my personal list of males in every blood group. Not oficial.
- on czech bonitations are figurants more agressiv during test of character- of course. But in second part of test is figurat (or group of people) friendly to dog. Simply- we want see every dog in diferent situations. It is, why dog is in one moment with owner and later without owner. It is level, what we want keep. If some countries have friendly figurant, not our problem.......... But I think, it is not test of character. It is, why we don´t accept results of bonitations from other countries for czech breeding dogs.
And last: I see big diferents between czech bonitations and bonitations in other countries. (Unfortunatelly I have not video).
my english is not so good for explain of all, what I mean, sorry :o))

Thank you Hanka.
All the facts you wrote correspond to my thoughts.
Your personal ideas do not 100%, but life is wonderful because we are different!
I can show you xrays and measurements of my official HD results...so saying you do NOT believe in Italian HD results is really vague for me.
Look at xrays and judge for yourself or get an expert to do it!

You beileve in Polish, Slovak, Hungarian HD results? ;-)

I think it doesn't matter "how hard" the character test is done: a good judge will be able to value the reaction of the dog in ANY case!
That is what Sonja told me and I believe her.

Again...i think it is all a matter of "political affairs and personal dislikes".. with less of this...the breed would be easier to control!

This is a video of last year's bonitation in Hronec (sk)

http://s56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...1273_WMVV9.flv

the dog is Gorbi zlata Palz...the only male dog to get P1...most of the others were penalized because of their character...
Sonja Bognarova was the judge.
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/bonitations/147.html

Hi hi, I belive only what I see on my own eyes :lol:.
I will not comment this test of character ;-), I prefer a little diferent test.
But it is always the same "problem" a few years. Very different conditions for breeding dogs in all World.
I like czech HD research. The veterinar doctor must write much dates on paperf A4 format and he MUST measure it. Everybody can read much about hips of every wolfdog. I would like all clubs in Evropa will have the same paper for all veterinars in evropa. It can be first step for the same way of researching of HIPs. It is easy.We can copy it and send to all clubs. and: every veterinar send ALL (!!!!) results to oficial club. So nobody can breed without oficial HD.
But you are right : 1000 people has 1000 ideas, because everybody is different.
Have a nice summer. If you will be in Czech, visit me ;-)

Thank you Massimo :)

To me this proves that one bonitation is not better/worse than another and the whole discussion about which bonitation is valid and which is not, is absolutly useless, as non of the bonitations in the 3 countries in subject are the same.

I can only agree with you that it is all about "political affairs and personal dislikes" ...which is a shame for the breed :(

:rock_3hhmmmmm...:roll: If it is political or not...I think everybody of you are right in a part.. ;-) But everybody has to realise there is also a big difference in accepting breed behaviour and dog behaviour in all the different countries!!:shock:

In my country we have a new (volunteer) behaviour test: the TOP test and I was on the first try outs with several breeds… It is to complicated to explain what is the all about and what is the difference with the before MAG test. But I can assure you that not one dog that did get P1 or P3 in Bonitation (in consideration behaviour) will succeed for this test! :roll:
(by the way I am still doubting to do this test with my CsW with Fo for behaviour in official Bonitation, but till today I am scared what the results means in the TOP test in my country for the CsW breed in future)

The differences in European countries what to accept or not about dogs and what is acceptable dog behaviour is more then huge!!!!
In my crowded country it is simple only normal that you will get a sign of police when your dog is for example only barging in your own garden. When I was the first time in SK, CZ, PL, Hu and Italy , I was surprised that there it was obligated that dogs were guarding there private garden with barking and growling:lol:

So how the hell we then can expect that Bonitations and other tests about behaviour and defence of dogs in every European country can be the same and accepted?

I did choose years ago to import a CsW from CZ and not to buy one from Dutch lines (and till today I am still very glad with this, the breeder, and the Reolup line!! )But…… in my country are this kind of CsW’s with a bit explosive, very active and independence behaviour not common…But I like my female very much especially because of her behaviour and her drive to want to do things with me but also because her very open and friendly behaviour to strange and unknown people for her. . (she has a spirit to work, but I admit I use this not enough :( ) But in Holland I hear a lot of negative comments about this female….. Even one of the owners of her offspring did tell she wants not to breed because this female has “the same bad character as her mother” (explosive, active and always wants to dominate other females)

And when all these kind of things are happening in European countries, why we can think a Bonitation in all countries can be the same and accepted by everyone ????

But don’t misunderstand me… when I did want now to buy as starter a new CsW , the parents should to have at least a good result of a SK or CZ Bonitation result :))))))))))))))))

Hi Hanka,

Do Czech breeding commitee not accept results of bonitation from Slovakia or is it only from all other countries they do not accept the results ?

Greetings Rolf

I can not say to mush about the Italian nor the tests in SL or CZ

But this is the MH-test ( Mental Health test) you MUST do whit your CsV before breeding in Sweden...No MH test, No pedigree for your puppies…

There is no Bonitation. (Only) MH test requirement and DNA test to prove the parents of the puppies.

www*youtube*com/watch?v=Am35v-2TURs
www*youtube*com/watch?v=3PQZVQlu62o
www*youtube*com/watch?v=2iCinQ6HKnQ
www*youtube*com/watch?v=tP2tI6d8g88
www*youtube*com/watch?v=G8Ope_lNLGk
www*youtube*com/watch?v=YdMhrMNmPYg


EDIT---

If you want that the links works, its only substitue the red starts * for points .

i know only this:

all bonitation in italy are falsed to Sarka Matrasova (Arimminum) in accorded whit fabio caselli (Passo del Lupo).

fabio and sarka are a resboseble tecnic of italian official club

this 2 play a good opion only for for her dogs, and change the helping.

all dog that are not arimminum or passo del lupo take P5 or P14

disgusting


www.lupidelmontale.it

I made the bonitations in CHIGNOLO (PAVIA) with a CZECH CLUB
with italian organization

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...88575973305282

http://picasaweb.google.it/valentina...54663464430258

I DO NOT HAVE an ARRIMINUM DOG but misha (my simple dog) take P3

before to talk you must inform you!
I do not know the others Italian bonitations, I write only about my test!

sorry, here the italian thread

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7570

there are so much photo of sarka's family...you are friend of sarka

sarka manipoled all brain of kid who read on italian forum, come to walk whit his....for her controlled italian forum of wolfdog are very important..controlled a admin...and then people breeding for her...sarka have not dogs...all puppy is maked to family who have arimminum dog.

Marco,
Sarka Matrasova is no longer in Itailan CSW club already since a couple of years.
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....utturaammi.htm
as for bonitation votes, these are given by Judge and not by the club technical board members.
Last year there was an official and VERY successful (41 dogs...biggest ever in Italy) bonitation made by Czech Club in Pavia organized also by Sarka Matrasova.

Just for the sake of truth, some stats:
Club Bonitations since 2007: 5
Number of adult dogs bonitated: 27
P1-15, P3-9, P5-1, P14-2

Passo del lupo 13 6xP1, 6xP3, 1xP5
L'amico del lupo 3 3xP1
Ariminnum 3 3xP1
Foresta incantata 2 P1, P3
Z Molu Es 1 P3
Vom Sturmwind 1 P14
Lupi di Monte Morello 1 P1
Al Fiume 1 P1
Lupi dei Camurati 1 P14
"Private" 1 P1

Surely the only P14 were given to NON PDL or Ariminnum dogs, but the other Non Pdl or Ariminnum dogs ALL got P1 or P3.

As for the Czech bonitation in Pavia, it was more successful in one bonitation than the itailan club in the last 3 years.

Number of adult dogs bonitated: 31
P1-19, P3-9, P5-1, P14-0, NV-1

Arimminum 3xP1, 3xP3
Passo del Lupo 2xP3, 1xNV
della vittoria alata 3xP1
Brave Heart P1, P3
Yggdrasill P1, P3
dei Navarri 2xP1
Impronta del Lupo 2xP1
al Fiume P1
Casale Orsetti P5
Colle del Lupo P1
della Lacha P1
Impero del Lupo P1
Maly Bysterec P1
z Blatnických vini P3
z Molu Es P3
z Peronówki P1
Zlata Palz P1
(priv. Avoni) P3

My personal Opinion??
1) Again...by the fact that the main judges of Italian club were Soukupova and Jedlicka and the fact that the Czech club came to Italy to make a bointation it's all a matter of POLITICS and DISLIKES!!
2) That looking at bonitation results, there are not much differences between the two, meaning that in Italy, according to bonitation, we don't have many bad dogs.
3) The CSW population in Italy is one of the highest but the weakest in number of dogs bonitated
4) that there are many many Italian CSW owners who disagree with the Club's way...WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY VOTE THEN???
5) I hope there will be another CSW bonitation as successful as the Czech club's one...and I hope the Italian club finally represented the Italian CSW owners...
massimo

MIKAEL: your videos are really interesting but fill up a lot of space; could you edit your post and send a link to each video instead of embedding it in the message?
Please?
massimo

sarka ha fatto per anni parte del comitato tecnico...adesso non so

arimminum all p1 ...or p3...strage

i finished

bye


www.lupidelmontale.it

Sarka has been part of the club in the past but not since 2007.

If the Italian Club bonitations are not trustable, and neither the Czech ones are...i wonder which ones are!!
massimo

Yes you are right :lol: but sorry I can not edit it as the post is to old to be edit by me, it must now be done by a Moderator...

It is OK by me if any Moderator is willing to put up the links instead of the videos.

Very best regards / Mikael

My english is not very good, i hope Massimo can translate.

Ho assistito e partecipato con i miei soggetti a diverse bonitazioni, di tipo "italiano", "ceco" e "Slovacco". Nel mentre ho contatti nell'ambiente addestrativo con diversi ambienti cinofili i cui si praticano test caratteriali in diverse razze tra cui Dobermann, Bovari delle Fiandre, Pastore Tedesco. Sebbene ogni test caratteriale in qualsivoglia razza possa essere soggetto a critiche, tutti i diversi test caratteriali del CZW a cui o assistito e partecipato presentano delle grosse lacune di concetto che ne invalidano profondamente lo scopo. La mia breve esperienza mi ha portato a non fidarmi di nessun tipo di codice caratteriale di nessuna bonitazione, e mi trovo nel lavoro di scelta dello stallone per la mia femmina, a dover incontrare e conoscere di persona ogni soggetto, il cui carattere trovo spesso in contraddizione con quanto espresso nel codice di bonitazione.
Premettendo che la selezione tecnica deve esprimere un codice utilizzabile nella scelta dei riproduttori, nella fattispecie del carattere, di cosa si compone il valore riproduttivo di un soggetto?
1)componente genetica, 2)capacità evolutive e di miglioramento rispetto a quanto ereditato 3) quanto questo soggetto è in grado di trasmettere geneticamente le sue qualità
Eccezion fatta per il punto tre che può essere stabilito solo sullo studio della progenie, il codice di selezione tecnica dovrebbe essere lo specchio quanto più possibile fedele dei primi due punti affinchè il suo utilizzo abbia un senso cinotecnico. Al di fuori di questi presupposti qualsiasi codice è sterile e vuoto, e questa non è mia opinione ma zootecnia appliacata alla cinotecnica (Robinson, Genetic for Dog Breeder 1990, Leotta, Miglioramento Genetico in Cinologia 2004).
Il test italiano è il CAL1, il conduttore con il cane al guinzaglio si presenta al giudice il cui assistente procede alla lettura del microchip (il comportamento del cane in questa fase è valutato), poi il conduttore attraversa nel campo un gruppo di persone che procede in senso opposto per due-tre volte e vengono esplosi due colpi di rivoltella, alla fine il conduttore si ferma nel gruppo che si è formato a cerchio. Il cane è tenuto ad ignorare il gruppo e non manifestare timore, diffidenze ne agressività. Il conduttore poi applica al cane un guinzaglio di dieci metri al cane e percorre una distanza di circa dieci metri in direzione del revier in cui può mettere in attenzione il cane e prepararlo alla minaccia. Su comando del giudice un figurante esce dal revier e minaccia frontalmente con decisione il cane e il suo conduttore che a questo punto concede corda alla reazione del cane. Il figurante può arrivare fino ad un metro dal cane, non oltre. Il cane non deve in nessun caso indietreggiare e manifestare paura. In nessun caso deve esserci contatto tra il cane e il figurante.
Questo è un test di attitudine al lavoro ritenuto molto valido negli ambienti "lavoristi" italiani, specie Pastore Tedesco e Malinois che in genere lo svolgono in giovane età per accedere alle Classe Lavoro in esposizione, ed il superamento del quale è requisito indispensabile per il consegumento del Campionato di Bellezza.
Ritengo possa essere un test molto valido anche per il CZW qualora esso sia svolto entro un certo limite di età (18-20 mesi), la minaccia venga eseguita a regola d'arte, e il giudizio finale sia conforme a quello per cui la prova è stata studiata, ovvero APPROVATO, NON APPROVATO.
La critica che può essere mossa, dal mio punto di vista, alla selezione tecnica italiana è di fatto la mancanza di senso nell'applicare i vari codici (Oc Oe Og Of) ad una prova studiata per determinare se il cane possiede attitudine al lavoro oppure no. Si può anche sostenere, e io in primis lo sostengo, che le minacce sono troppo morbide rispetto a quanto prevede il regolamento. Ma su tutto, visto e considerato che molti, quasi tutti, preparano il cane a questa prova in campo di addestramento, il suo risultato ha valore zero rispetto al valore riproduttivo del soggetto.
La questione fondamentale del mio intervento è che dal mio punto di vista, anche i test cechi, e slovacchi hanno valore zero rispetto al valore riproduttivo del soggetto, quindi trovo sterile le accuse di invalidità della prova caratteriale italiana che, in se stessa, è una prova molto valida ma mal applicata.
Ho assistito alla bonitazione di tipo slovacco a Heingenbrucken nel 2008. Un soggetto adulto femmina, appena legato al paletto ha comiciato a strillare e piangere verso la padrona che si allontanava andandosi a nascondere a circa 20 m di distanza. Il cane restò legato e proteso verso quella direzione uggiolando e chiamando la padrona. Al primo avvicinarsi inoffensivo del figurante il soggetto a scartato lateralmente in direzione opposta, un pò intimidito restando però in costante attenzione verso il nascondiglio della padrona. Al ritorno sempre pacifico il soggetto ha completamente ignorato il figurante. Al successivo avvicinamento, con minaccia molto blanda coadiuvata di bastone, il cane che ormai aveva compreso l'innocuità del soggetto nonostante la mimica di una minaccia (a cui pochi cani avrebbero creduto) non ha avuto reazioni se non quella di distogliere per un secondo lo sguardo dal nascondiglio della padrona verso il bastone agitato timidamente.
Che indicazioni può dare un simile test? Semplicemente che il cane presenta un maniacale attaccamento al proprietario, talmente forte che ne invalidà qualsiasi altro tipo di considerazione. Se si fosse appesantita la minaccia probabilmente si sarebbe scatenata una reazione di autodifesa (normale per ogni cane, da valutare la soglia di reazione, ma la reazione di autodifesa non può essere considerata coraggio), oppure un totale negarsi,ci sono rari casi di cani, che anche bastonati non reagiscono.
Questo test mi ha dato un responso sul risultato dell'influenza ambientale subita dal soggetto, ma le indicazioni sul genotipo del soggetto sono alquanto generalizzate e scarse, soprattuto se consideriamo che il soggetto fu valutato come Of, ovvero un cane che dovrebbe avere equilibrio e coraggio da vendere, un cane che potrebbe dare qualche risultato anche in Utilità e Difesa. Per me quel cane in quella prova non lo ha dimostrato, in primis perchè la prova non ha permesso di dimostrarlo! Per mia personale opinione, un Czw per avere un codice Of deve affrontare una minaccia cinotecnicamente rispettabile.
Se nella prova Ceca da quello che ho visto, e da quello che mi è stato riferito, la minaccia viene eseguita sempre in modo accettabile, rimane la spinosa questione del paletto. Vedrei più plausibile la prova del paletto svolta come nello ZTP del dobermann, in cui tale prova venne adottata per eliminare dalla riproduzione i soggetti troppo sensibili, reattivi quindi di carattere poco solido (che non vuol dire pauroso). Nello ZTP si valuta l'equilibrio del cane e che questi abbia una soglia ed un equilibrio rispetto all'azione di autodifesa. Ovvero il cane non deve in nessun caso reagire. Ma la prova è ben diversa dal quella nel CZW, il cane non viene mai minacciato.
Il cane viene legato al paletto, e lasciato da solo per almeno 5 minuti in quanto deve avere la percezione di essere solo, scrupolo che non ho visto adottatto ne da cechi ne da slovacchi nella prova del paletto.
Dopo questi 5 minuti il giudice avvicina il cane e a sua discrezione compie dei gesti, anche inconsulti ma mai di minaccia per valutare se il cane da solo è troppo sensibile e nevrile come una pistola pronta a far fuoco per niente. In genere viene aperto un ombrello, fatto cadere il block-notes, tutti gesti un pò improvvisi ma mai direttamente di minaccia. Se il cane reagisce vuol dire che è troppo sensibile e/o insicuro, il cane deve giustamente essere attento all'estraneo, che fa cose strane, ma non reagire in quanto nessuna minaccia è messa in atto. Questo è un'ottima valutazione della soglia di autodifesa, in genere la prima causa della mordacità canina, dell'equilibrio e della solidità di carattere che deve avere un cane da lavoro per standard.
La classica prova del paletto è da una parte inficiata dal fatto che il cane viene minacciato e avvicinato quando il cane è completamente in attenzione verso il padrone, e sa quasi esattamente dove si trovi. Secondo la minaccia del cane da solo tende a portare una reazione di autodifesa (ho visto diversi cani avanzare con i denti di fuori mentre erano da soli, mentre con il proprietario reagivano appena), o un tentativo di fuga. E' sufficiente una minaccia ben eseguita sul cane con conduttore per vedere il coraggio di un cane, qualsiasi tecnico di settore addestramento può affermare ciò!
Altra considerazione è quella che un test caratteriale eseguito su un cane spesso di 2-3 anni (spesso e volentieri preparato alla prova, a prescindere se sia ceco, slovacco o italiano) rende minima la possibilità di valutazione della componente genetica rispetto a quella ambientale/evolutiva, ma sappiamo bene se quest'ultima è preponderante nell'espressione fenotipica, è la prima quella degna di maggior considerazione nella scelta di un riproduttore.
Ultima considerazione è quella che tra tutti gli ambienti del Czw non c'è accordo su cosa deve essere questo cane anche se lo standard qualche indicazione lo da. Se deve diventare (adesso non lo è, ma ne possiede secondo me, enormi potenzialità soprattutto come cane da ricerca e da pista) un cane da lavoro, i test caratteriali devono essere dei test attitudinali o vere prove di lavoro da superare e basta, solo così si raggiungerà lo scopo. Si deve arrivare ad un imbuto in cui passino solo i cani migliormente predisposti in questo senso, sennò è inutile guardare al Czw come a cane da utilità, per come vanno le cose adesso, in qualsiasi paese, non lo diventerà mai, se non in qualche soggetto ben disposto oltre la media che avrà la fortuna di avere anche un padrone che vi si applica per esprimerlo.

Google Translator
 

Mabe this will help a bit ;-)

Translation Woland´s post

"I witnessed and participated with my subject to different bonitate, type "Italian", "Czech and Slovak." In the meantime I have contacts in different environments with training dogs whose tests are practiced in different character races including Dobermann, Bovara Flemish, German Shepherd. Although each test character in any breed can be subject to criticism, all the different tests of character CzW who witnessed and participated in or have large gaps in concept that it invalidates the very end. My brief experience has led me not to trust any kind of code of any character bonitate and I work in the choice of stallion for my female, having to meet and hear any person subject, the nature of which I find often in contradicts the view expressed in the Code of bonitate.
Premise that the selection technique is to cast a code used in the selection of breeding, in this case the character, what comprises the reproductive value of a player?
1) genetic component, 2) capacity development and improvement than they inherited 3) As this subject is able to transmit its genetic quality
Except for the three that can only be established on the study of the offspring, the code selection technique should be the mirror as faithfully as possible the first two points so that its use makes sense cinotecnico. Outside these assumptions any code is sterile and empty, and this is not my opinion but livestock appliacata to cinotecnica (Robinson, Genetic Dog Breeder for 1990, Leotta, Genetic Improvement in Cinologia 2004).
The test is the Italian CAL1, the conductor with the dog on a leash is the court which shall give the assistant read the microchip (the behavior of the dog at this stage is estimated), then through the conduit in a group of people who carry in the opposite direction for two or three times and are exploded two revolver shots at the end the driver stops in the group has formed a circle. The dog is required to ignore the group and to express fear, distrust agressivité it. The operator then applies to a dog leash to ten meters per dog, and traveling a distance of about ten meters in the direction of the Revier where it can put the dog attention and prepare to the threat. At the command of a judge appearing Revier and leaves the threat head-on with the decision and his dog running at this point allows the rope to the dog's reaction. The shown can be up to a meter from the dog, not beyond. The dog must not retreat and fear expressions. In no case shall there be contact between the dog and set out.
This is a test of aptitude for work considered very valuable in environments Works Italians, especially German Shepherd and Malinois, who usually play it at a young age to have access to Class Work on display, and the overcoming of which is prerequisite for consegumento Championships of Beauty.
I think can be a very good test for CzW even if it is done within a certain age (18-20 months), the threat is carried out in accordance with best practice, and the final assessment is in line with that for which the test has been studied, namely APPROVED NOT APPROVED.
The criticism that can be moved, from my point of view, the technical selection of Italian made no sense in applying the various codes (Oc Oe Of Og) at a test designed to determine whether the dog has attitude to work or no. You can also support, and I support him in the first place, that the threats are too soft compared to the expected settlement. But on the whole, considering that many, almost all, prepare your dog to this test in training camp, the result was zero compared with the reproductive value of the subject.
The key question of my speech is that from my point of view, the test Czechs and Slovaks have zero respect for the reproductive value of the subject, then find sterile allegations of invalidity of proof that the Italian character, in itself, is a he is very good but badly implemented.
I have seen the type bonitate a Slovak Heingenbrucken in 2008. An adult female, once linked to the pole he started to scream and cry to the lady who is going to hide away at about 20 m away. The dog was left tied and out towards that direction uggiolando and calling the owner. At the first sound of approaching the subject contained in discarded laterally in the opposite direction, a little intimidated but remaining constant attention to the hiding place of the mistress. Always return to the ground the subject has completely ignored the appearing. The next approach, with very mild threat of assisted stick, the dog who now understood the safety of the subject despite the gestures of a threat (to which few would have believed dogs) had no reaction but to distract him for a second hiding from the gaze of the lady to stick shaken shyly.
Signs that can give such a test? Simply that the dog has a fanatical devotion to the owner, so strong that it invalid any other type of account. If you have weighed the threat was probably triggered a response of self (normal for any dog, to assess the threshold of reaction, but the reaction of self can not be considered courage), or a total denied, there are rare cases of dogs which do not react well beaten.
This test has given me a lot on the result of environmental changes from the subject, but the signs on the genotype of the subject are fairly generalized and scarce, especially if we consider that the subject was evaluated as Of, or a dog that should have balance and courage for sale, a dog that could also give some results in Utility and Defense. For me, that dog in that trial has not demonstrated, primarily because the evidence failed to prove it! For my personal opinion, a CzW for a Code Of faces a threat cinotecnicamente respectable.
If the Czech evidence from what I saw, and what I was told, the threat is always done in an acceptable manner, there remains the thorny issue of the pole. Would most likely testing the pole as a turning point in the Dobermann ZTP, in which this test was adopted to eliminate the players from playing too sensitive, responsive and lack of solid (which is not to say frightening). ZTP in assessing the balance of the dog and that he has a threshold and a balance in relation to the action of self-defense. Or the dog must not react. But the proof is quite different from that in CzW, the dog is never threatened.
The dog is tied to the pole, and left alone for at least 5 minutes in you should have the feeling that they only care that I have not seen adottatto ne da ne Czechs from Slovaks in the pole test.
After these 5 minutes the judge approaches the dog and in its discretion makes gestures, even rash but never threatened to assess whether the dog is just too sensitive and nevrile like a gun ready to fire at all. Usually opens an umbrella, dropped the block-notes, all a bit sudden gestures but never directly threatened. If the dog reacts to say that is too sensitive and / or insecure, the dog should rightly be careful all'estraneo, which makes strange things, but not to react because no threat is carried out. This is an excellent assessment of the threshold of self-defense, usually the most common cause of canine scathing, of balance and strength of character that should have a dog for working standards.
The classic test of pole is on the one hand by the fact that the dog is being approached and when the dog is completely in focus towards the boss, and knows almost exactly where you are. Under the threat of the dog alone tends to bring a response of self (I have seen several dogs with teeth move out while they were alone, while the owner just reacting), or an attempt to escape. It 'just a threat to the well-run dog with conductor to see the courage of a dog, any technical field training that can be said!
Another consideration is that a character test performed on a dog often of 2-3 years (often prepared to test, regardless of whether it is Czech, Slovak or Italian) make at least the possibility of assessing the genetic component than in the environment / evolutionary, but we know if that is predominant phenotypic expression, the first one is worthy of greater consideration in choosing a player.
Last consideration is that among all circles of CzW there is no agreement on what should be the dog even if the standard some indication from him. If you have to be (now it is not, but I think it has huge potential especially as a dog search and track) a working dog, the character test should be of aptitude tests or tests of real work to overcome it and go, only so we reach the goal. You must get to a funnel where the dogs spend only improvement predisposed to this effect, otherwise it is useless to look to CzW as a utility dog, how are things going now, in any country, will not ever, if not in some subject well-prepared than the average will have the good fortune to have a boss that you apply for conversion."

Regards / M

I think that Massimo wrote right things and I quote him!

Marco, have you got problems?
Look my photos (all my photos in picasa) ... you can see that I'm friend of all people .... ALL people with our dogs!

Sorry for his nonsense talking...is clear to who I am referring!:shock:

I´m afraid you are now wrong Mikael. The MH stands for Mentally Dog and is only a DESCRIPTION of the dogs reactions. Its NOT a TEST in any way!! Your dog does not even have to go trough with the description to be declared deskribed. Only if the owner decides to quit the test or if the dog shows fear at the moment with the gunshot the dog is declared not correkt MH and is not allowed for breeding. If the describer decides to break the description the dog is still to be declared described. Every breeding club make up they own spiderdiagram that is supposed to help breeders to see where in the spider the dog they want to use in breeding has its instincts. Every breed has its own spider that shows what is WANTED in the breed so you can compare with your breedingdogs results but also what the dog leaves to the puppies. ( when the puppies goes for their MH) An exampel of this spider for collie http://www.vilda-meduza.se/index_a_kullens_spindel.htm. (We dont have this spider for CsV because we dont have a breedingclub yet to work one out.)

In the Swedish workingdogclub they also got an more advanced TEST that is called Mental Test ( MT) and when the dog either has "very good" in dog show or a exterior description from a showjudge AND got an approved Mental Test the dog got the titel "Korad". This Mental test is for the breeds connected to Swedish workingdogclub ONLY!! And they refused the question from SKK of connecting CsV to them...

// Jimma

@ woland :twisted::twisted::twisted:





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6NVx...layer_embedded


:twisted::twisted::twisted:

Hmmmm :ehmmm

Skk decided Saarloos and CsV must do this (test) before breeding, as they are WOLF dogs and not just dogs... it has nothing to do whit if they are workingdogs or not on this breeds...

CsV and Saarloos is under Swedish kennel club and not Swedish Working dog club, yes I know... but last I did her it is still a requirement for both Saarloos and CsV to do this (test)... has anything change ??? As the Working dog club did say NO we do not wont CsV as a Working breed in Sweden yet ( or ever)

I do not understand all you did wrote, but I know one do not have to pass whit a good result to be permitted to breed, you just have to show up and do your best on this (test) and get a result, good or bad...

OK, it is not called (Mental Health test) in English, it is called Mentally dog, but to me it still luck like a test of mentality :wink: and you get a result that your puppy buyers might wont to se, or am I wrong ???

I do hope it is still a demand for breeding of CsV, but yes I understand if they will take it away as a demand on Saarloos, but the first litter of Saaroos born this year in Sweden parents had to do it, to get there pedigrees from Skk.
Please correct me if I’m wrong or has misunderstand anything :confused2

Yes we do not have a specific MH (test) for CsV yet, I think we must do the GSD (test) :rock_3 ?

Very best regards / Mikael

No problems, thanks for your help Nebulosa :)

Best regards / Mikael

Hi Mikael!

I understand if it is not that easy to understand but it is very important that you DO understand the diffrencies espacially since you think about being a breeder. Don not tell everybody the MH is a TEST because it is not. There are no special GSD test in the MH. The description situation is the same for every breed its how the spider looks like that counts and that is different from every breed. CsV should not have the same spider as GSD because then you can aswell buy a GSD. The MH dont VALUATE the dogs reaction..No reaction is better then another depending on how the breeds spider looks like. The describer is no judge...He or she only fill in the formula HOW the dog reacts. MH is no meritation its only to see how the dog fits in the spider of the breed more like breedingevaluation. Is the breed going in the right direction or not? SKK wants the MH for our breed to sort out weak individuals from breeding wich they can IF our dogs dont manage the shooting after being stressed out of the description situations. Because its a breed with not that good reputation in Sweden. The same goes for the saarloos for wich we also have to work out such spider, fitting that breed. So please Mikael DONT mix this things up for people.

I´m not trying to mix anything up ;-) but clearly people se it as a test, as they put up there own video as "MH TEST", and not as just MH :roll:

did I put up the wrong video ? if not, I can only se the word TEST as wrong, sorry for that, it is Mental-beskrivning in Swedish and translated to English it is Mental-description if I´m not wrong...

I did know Mental Health Test was not the exact word, that is way I did put it in paranthes ;-)

My point was to show that the testing in the Bonitation of the mentality was not realy a big test, and say very little about the dogs mentality.

So even if we only call it MH... I think the reasen is still the same as on a Bonitation test, to try to breed better dogs and the right ones whit each other.

I se no point at all to argue if is is called a test or description :roll:

Best regards / Mikael

Upon that!! I can only agree!:)

// Jimma

I almost forgot :oops:
...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations :roll:

This should be the end of this discussion together with the video-clip that Massimo posted earlier, which CLEARLY shows that there is a difference in Czech and Slovak character test and the difference is absolutly the same as in the Italian character test.

I just think it is funny, that non of the before so eager debaters, who was speaking against the Italian bonitations, have any comments to the FACT that wolfdog.org apparently is working against both the Czech and the Slovak clubs, by not accepting the Italian bonitations ...the same tendency can be seen in the thread about the stud dog list, where it is ONLY wolfdog.org who claim that dogs with ED is not to be used in the breeding and non of the clubs of origin have any restrictions about this or even require ED results.

I wait for a correction of the faults made by wolfdog.org about bonitation as well as about ED. ...or at least a reasonable explanation why wolfdog.org do not accept the guidelines of the clubs of origin.

Greetings Rolf

Now I fully understand why Margo gave up the Wolfdog.org administration... :lol:For sure she had enough to explain again and again the most OBVIOUS things to people who do not WANT to understand it.... :twisted:

The "hidden true" which you just "discovered" is nothing else than the most BASIC FCI rule which says about reciprocal recognition of breeding rights...

Simply said ALL clubs (not only Czech and Slovakian but clubs IN ANY country) must and do accept breeding dogs from other countries. Even if there are NO RULES and all you need for breeding is just a pedigree...

But it has NOTHING to do with recognision of the bonitations. In this case you have the INTERNAL club rules who accept only COMPARABLE bonitations - made on the same "level" as the Czech and Slovak bonitations.

In Poland dogs do not need bonitations to get the breeding rights, nor HD, ED, PRA, nor working exams, etc. but just three excellent (male) and at least very good (female) show results. So any extras the owners do with their dogs is just their good will connected with their care about the breed development.

However - not having the bonitation as the breeding requirement - the owners can bonitate their dogs as many times as they wish, which leads to humorous situations and uncovers the absurds of bonitations, which I have pointed out here several times.

Examples: one owner found bonitating his dog so enjoyable, that he repeats it every year :lol:, another found that the dog lost 2 cm in height in one year. :p

Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing" :|

BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand?:shock:

PS When in 1989 private ownership was first introduced in our part of the world workers in one factory went on strike under the slogan "We want the company owner to be changed!":rock_3 Doesn't it sound familiar?:p:lol:

Rolf, it has already been said several times that Czech and Slovak clubs don't need to recognize a thing from outside countries.
You did actually say something rather obvious: if a Czech dog must get pedigree, the mother MUST have bonitation done in Czech republic and the father, if Czech, too. If the father is not Czech, he must have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So they don't care how or if the dogs have been bonitated.

Also in Italy there are NO requirements for getting Pedigree...anything you do (bonitation, exams, xrays) is ONLY because of good will.

haha...you make me crack up! absolutely true.
massimo

Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......?
Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog. I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

Polish owners are not bound to obey Czech or Slovakian regulations, so why not?;) Czech owners do not need to obey Polish ones (shows), either...

Neither do I :lol::lol::lol: But since the dog gets the same P1 code every time, it's definitely not the case you mention :) Maybe the owner just enjoys it?:p

Did you see the video of Slovak bonitation uploaded by Massimo ?
...if you did, how can you accept Slovak bonitations and not Italian bonitations ? :roll:
By internal club rules, do you mean that wolfdog.org is a club ?
Because speaking about comparable bonitations must be a joke, when it is very clear that Czech and Slovak bonitations is quit different from eachother, especially when comparing the charactertest, the R1 code and the significant of the index.

Greetings Rolf

Well I am sorry, but it was not obvious(or logical) to me, as in many other breeds it is possible(and normal) to get your dog bonitated in other countries, which is accepted and recognized by the breedclub in the country where the dog lives.

Greetings Rolf

I did not mention any video from Czech bonitation, but from Slovak bonitation.

Greetings Rolf

Ok, thanks

There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE.

I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results.

...and the main difference between Czech and Slovak bonitations is aggeression in the charactertest, different ways of interpret the R1 code, the index and 1cm to little = P14.

This is 4 things, the Italian bonitation only have 1 difference compared to the Czech bonitation, so this should justify considering it a different test and different ways of jugdement, Czech and Slovak bonitations should have different codes as results ;-)

I will repeat my self again : one difference is not worser than another, it is still a difference.

Greetings Rolf

Please, let Judge to say if dog is melancholic, choleric, sangvinic, flegmatic or something between this characteristic. Be alone I can lern shy dog without problem.
Important is, if the test is able to say something about volume of excitement and inhibition simply, about the adaptability and robustness aginst shot. And this italian test do it!
The bureaucracy not belong to breeding of dogs and wolfdog. org with admin WITHOUT NAME do it, simply.
I am sorry for my English.

Monika Soukupová

Maybe some of you are interested to know what and how the bonitations in Italy really are.
As it was already said, the morphology is more or less the same as in other countries.
The difference is the Character test.
Some of you know that the character test is made, in Slovakia for example, first by doing a human group and the dog must walk within it.
Then the dog is tied to a pole an the figurant comes out once attacking him and then trying to have a normal contact with him in a calm way.
By these features, the judge is supposed to know, also considering how the dog behaved during the measurement, what kind of character code it deserves.
In italy we have the same group introduction, then the dog is tied up to a long leash and the onwer is holding the other side.
The figurant comes out of the revier with a menacing approach and the dog must react to the person protecting his owner and never pulling back.

We also have a moment in which somebody shoots to empty shots in the air and the dog must remain as it was before, no fear or anger.

I want to share the videos with you, maybe you have some further comments.

In this video Barishka is teaching Mio some manners...she is used to much stronger males...sorry!! :lol::lol::lol:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39038527
Bonitations:

Group:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39045516
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39044903
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460

Gunshot:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/

attack:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39036911

hello, thank you for these vidéos.

how made you in Italy for correctly judging the characters in the presence of the owner ??? :?

I made pass the bonitation to my female by Monika Soukupova, the test of character passed in my presence then without my presence. This year Daiva Rimaityte made pass to my male, the test of character without my presence. Thus a Czech bonitation and Slovak, we have well could see the character.

correct me if i am wrong :

interest of this test is to see whether the dog is able to go up in pressure and to go down again in pressure when it there does not have threat in front of the same person and without the owner?

I really do not see how to judge the character correctly; a dog then it is with its owner?? the dog defers its confidence on its owner, and the reaction can be completely different without its owner.

Afflicted, but I am not agreement with the test of character of the Italian bonitation, for me the results are not right whole ..... :?

impossible to see whether the dog of itself goes down again in pressure, therefore to see the real stability of the dog , no ???

why do Italy make different test, which reproach towards the tests of Czech and Slovak ?????

sorry for my english :lol:

Martial

Hello Martial, I think the same. It is important to see dog reaction without owner. Some wolfdogs are selfconfident with owner behind back and the same dog is shy without owner. The reaction can be absolutly different.

khmm i not saw normal psychical test ONLY training to defence with figurant and veeery gut figurant, he make dog agresive to atack, but this is training not normal behavior test, who make dog when in real he atack other man when he is alone without owner.
Nice training but not moore

i posted the videos not because I think they are wrong or right, but just to show you what we are speaking about as TOO MANY of you speak about something they really know nothing of except "hearing" from others or guessing.
You've seen the video of the Slovak bonitation and here is the video of the Italian bonitation.

I am trying to be as open and subjective as possible.

According to the judge this test is sufficient to be able to evaluate the character of a dog.
This is the Character test made in Italy, whether you like it or not.

Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy.

My opinion is that the real character of a wolfdog cannot really be seen neither with this test or the Czech or Slovak test.
But we need an approximate information about the dog and the judge, when it's a GOOD judge, can see it even from a weak attack like the Slovak test or a strong attack next to the owner like the Italian one.

I respect your opinions, I hope you respect mine.

Massimo

This is the main difference from czech/slovak and italian, other are minimal.

I think it is a big difference as I said before.



@wolfin : about training...you can train even a dog leaved alone without owner!
W can discuss years about what test is better (for me leaving dog alone under attack is wrong and very useless, no other breed do this) but I really don't think this is the point.

Wow Massimo, write me more about it:
"Leaving a dog on a pole alone and having an attack is forbidden in Italy."
It is interest for me. Why? Is it any law? is it for short test of character too????

Massimo, i respect :)
only for my this is normal traning but not normal real situation when cann saw normal dogs character.
I know dogs, who are real agresive and cann make this italian atack when is with owner, but alone in CZ/SK test this dogs is veery small and not bark not atack only make down, not are owner, dog not is strong.
for this my like and I tested character like slovak - dog, cann be without training from house, but You cann saw normal realy hes character.
this is my opinion :);)

Sorry i just noticed the links where not perfect.
Please find below the right links
Scusate i link ai video erano sbagliati!

Barushka teaches Amore Mio
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903852799/

Group
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841733/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904551672/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904490318/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460162/

Shoot
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/

Attack
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903691113/
massimo

aha, Hanka see this :) dogs in italian bonitation are atacked from figurant and very strong atack with jumping and speaking, and this is ok :roll:
but dog leaving alone and normal people who make with hem contact and later wish atack hem like normal, but stupid real man, this is not ok :lol:
why?
this 1 type is moore agresive dog type like 2 bonitation type

Sorry Max, this in NOT true. Really.

I agree, but we should give same possibility to every dog...as for the "stud list" we need rules that are the same for all.
If you make a different test, don't call it "bonitace" and give different results, what 's the problem ?

"Navarre": Of course, the figurant must have sense for dogs. If he see the dog is not selfconfident, he will not press him out and he must not to do shock of dog for all life :lol:.
But these test sof character are here normal for all working breeds and I think our breed have tis test much "softest" than other working breed here. How we can know if it is dog with labil (stabil) character without seeing dog in different conditions? Often we can see dog only on bonitation, so we want know maximum about him. This dog will be "in much next generations" and we have future of breed in our hand.
This breed was made for work, so we must keep good character of breed. The beauty only is for nothing.

The italian "bonitace" is taken from a character test called CAL 1. This is the first step (of 3) for working breed as malinois and boxer.

This test provides as result APPROVED or NOT APPROVED, and not many results as bonitace.

This is what I was told, NOT by Italian Club but by one of the ENCI working persons.
Maybe I am wrong.
I will further investigate about it, and give you feedback.

Just one note: if we want...we can make ANY dog pull back if put on a pole and alone... all we need to do is make a STRONG attack.
The attacks I saw during Slovak Bonitations were NOT attacks...they were a lady with a stick going near the dog without looking at it.

In my opinion, i repeat, NEITHER of the tests are good enough to understand the real character of the dog. They help the judge, that's all.
If the Judge is a good judge (i never go to a Bonitation if I think the judge is NOT good enough...) he/she will be able to give the correct Character definition.
massimo

I repeat my question, why does Italy make a different test? with a which aim? the Czechs and the Slovak ones set up tests adapted to a race they built, why Italy wants to make differently.

I am not at all agreement, a judge so good he can be cannot judge the character of the dog correctly right while basing himself on this test… :?

AHA !!!!
Yes now I know all :)
You training dog for this and make this test in this method- You make like with GSD - hes korung cann make when dog have IPO 1 like minimum, this is same - You tested whe good is trainined dog, but NOT REAL dogs character.
Yes in this case italian dogs have good opinion in this test :) when You tested hes trainable not real character :)
in this case i moore believe in this "lady with stick" but not in Yours profesional figurangt jumping :)
massimo this is my opinion :rock_3

you would have had to come at the time of the bonitations this year to France, this is not a woman and so that my dog is in this state, you can believe me, there was threat :rock_3

http://storage.canalblog.com/48/04/537107/43266652.jpg

@martiou07
i speak for what i see.
If in france it's different, good for you. I referred ONLY to the slovak one, which i saw with my own eyes.
Allow me to quote a well known and well considered judge, Sona Bognarova.
"if the attack is strong or week it doesn't matter, i judge the reaction of the dog accordingly".

Daiva, i agree that we cannot see the real character of the dog with this Italian Character test. Any CSW can be trained to react to a figurant.
I agree with you 100%.
BUT I also don't think we can see the character from the slovak or czech test either.
The only thing I can do is trust the judge.
I am sorry but when I see a bonitation code i don't ask: where was it done??
I ask: who did it?
Some names are for me trustable with eyes closed...others I prefer seeing the dog with my own eyes.

I will NOT say the name but during a summer camp i went close to a dog who was on a chain and alone.
I was stupid because I thought he was young enough to accept me.
He bit my hand.
This dog is a wonderful and beautiful dog, used and appreciated internationally, but seeing a stranger approaching him in a calm way, he bit me.
I didn't tell anybody about this (of course, it was my fault) but I have my own opinion about him, I don't care what the judges say.
Oliver was on a chain alone too. He was barking and growling at ALL the dogs, but if a person came near him, he absolutely didn't care and wanted them to stroke him.
Again... i prefer having my own opinion of a dog's character, boniitation gives me just an idea.
massimo

Massimo, we speak about diferent bonitation, Yet I know who is in Italy. And yet have me personel opinion who is who.
OFF about dogs:
About dogs without owner and when he is leaving. I am in breed about 10-13 year, but i NOT going to others dogs, who is not me personel owned dogs, maybe I have moore brain or instinct. This is not me dog, and normal dogs reaction is bite. Speak with Pavel, he say this same. and in Pozna memorial is test - dogs not mas accept other people when is alone, he mas defence self.
If speak about me personel dogs, yes he is training for this :) and better not going to my nice, wolfy doggy :) when he is alone leaving :) hard situation in ours land and I mas have real working dogs in my house :) in others camp make special table- "Danger!!! lithuania piranias" :twisted:
p.s. about this I speak and writte not one time :) and You mas member this from others thema :)

I'm afraid I don't understand this. :? I thought from what you've written so far, that the dog when left alone should behave calmly toward a person, who approaches to him/her in a normal (friendly) manner - even if that person earlier tried to provoke him/her with a stick (during a bonitation test of course). Now you write, that's guite normal, when a dog bites a man's hand (without a warning?) who didn't behave in a provocative way. :? Please explain. :)

I explain You in privat, my polish is better like english
p.s. I say about my personel dogs, he have training to work like guard dogs and mas not make contact when is leaving on leash alone. This is his work :), when massimo speak about dogs, I reply, but this thema is not about my or hes dogs :) back to bonitation

In Italy it is illegal to threaten the dog to the pole! Is allowed ZTP test, but on this test is without threaten! Reaction of dog when is alone at the pole, is self-defence, and this is normal for 99% of dogs. Shy dog can have self-defence reaction, balanced dog can have self-defence reaction, agressive dog can have self-defence reaction... The mimicry of the dog in self-defense is the same for both the dog's courage, for that balance and the shy. At the pole we can know the self-defence border (very important, self-defence is the first reason of bite), but without threaten, like ZTP.
The pole test like Czech-Slovak bonitation has meaning only in the selection of the military 30 years ago. All test bonitation, Italian too, are insufficient for a real character selection, on a work breed...How many years you have this code selection for character? Where are the working dogs results? Only a few dogs, for great desire of the owners, These results are almost never traceable to the choice of codes of bonitation!
I am convinced that now is the time to end up with these political issues, and is the moment to start with a real character selection for work dog, we need help from other breed, the CZW are very close...on other breed i have seen real result on 3-4 generation, with real test. Is moment to open the eyes!!

is true, as you say it, the test of Italian nature can give to the same result an apprehensive dog or balanced.

That is completely different from the tests Slovaques and Czech, it is well damage which you cannot make these tests in Italy ...... In France, the wolfhound is interdict of discipline of corrosive, the first bonitation in France was a test, the club was a little refractory.
However, they note from now on that these tests are very interesting… ;)

OK, so quick overview:

1. The Slovak bonitation contains contact and weak attack by strange person with the owner absent
2. The Czech bonitation contains meeting of group of people with the dog on leash, and then contact and strong attack with the owner first present but not holding the dog and then again absent.
3. Italian bonitation contains meeting of group of people on the leash and then strong attack with owner holding the dog.

There are two main differences among these 3 types in my opinion:

1. Bonitations 1 and 2 contain contact and attack on dog without owner present. This shows how the dog reacts when on its own. Bonitation 3 does not show this at all.

2. Bonitations 2 and 3 show behavior with owner present. The meeting of group is a good thing but not vital, as the dog during the measurements reacts to strange people with owner present so the judge can see this. So the bonitation 1 also shows the behavior of dog with owner present. Therefore, if we take into account Sonya's word that the attack doesn't have to be strong to show the character, then there is no important difference between bonitations 1 and 2 and we can use the same code.

On the other hand, although bonitation 3 shows strong attack similar to bonitation 2, the owner is not only present, but is holding the dog. This creates even stronger influence of the presence of the owner, the dog feeling that he has both moral and physical support behind it (this is actually used for defence training - the owner holds the leash tightly to not loose physical contact with the dog), and actually having something else to protect except itself. With animals there is a distance limit, where the defense behavior changes from escape to fight. This distance is fairly short with wolves and dogs, so if the dog is attacked and afraid, it will try to run from even small distances. But with the owner on the other side of leash the distance limit may change and affect the dogs behavior.

Therefore I don't think the bonitation 3 should use the same codes as bonitations 1 and 2.

What I said here doesn't mean that the bonitations shows the dog character perfectly - far from it. But we didn't find any better way yet. But there is a big difference between 1+2 and 3, while only a small difference between 1 and 2.

I see the overview was not that quick ;o);