"Suspicious" dogs list
 

Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted.
An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

Yes I think it would be good to know this info too,
but only if it is based on 100% proof not suspicions...

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us :)

Best regards / Mikael

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

Ina, that's why I wrote documented.
About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)".
The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

No I do not se way it has to be international, if a breeder takes DNA tests on heas dogs, he can put the results in this database together whit the HD, ED and PRA. but I agree it would be good if a CsV club was responsible fore this database.

This way it would be easier to choose an appropriate mating partner and fore the buyers to choose a healty puppy.

In the begining it will be very few dogs in this database, but whit time I think buyers will request DNA results.
And I think in the future all breeders will have to privide this data.

Yes it will take years to build up this database, but way not start now ???

Best regards / Mikael

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think :roll:

Rolf

Exactly. And to create DNA-Tests for hereditary diseases you need DNA from as much dogs, ill ones and healthy ones, as possible. At the moment there is no DNA-test for any disease in CSW. It is not even 100% sure that the dwarf test will show the same genes as in SWH and GSH.
We till now bred with Slowakian studs, Italien studs, Hungarian studs, Czech studs and German studs. That is the reason why we need an international comparable test. And what would you like to show here on wolfdog.org? The lab registration number of the test? What sense does it make if everybody makes it´s own, not comparable test? There has to be rules how to take the blood samples, which laboratories will take it, who will store and analyse the results and so on. Otherwise the people that cheated before will cheat with the DNA as well.
DNA-tests surely will come and there will be an international agreement about ist one day, but not tomorrow.

Coming back to the suspicions. Do you really think that Margo (sorry Margo, I just take you for an example;-)) said this and there is a rumor is a proof? Imagine someone ill minded would say your dog has some heriditary problems and others follow him and your dog comes on this privately kept list. This has been done before many times. There will be no help from DNA test for open hair.

Ina

Ina, I agree with you 100%.

If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest. :klatsch Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it.:ehmmm

However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money. :cry:

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect? :p:evil_lol

You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money.

A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did.

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way.

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.

I meant elf, of course, not Rolf:oops:

Exactly!! Naturally, not all people, but definitely too many. :) It's sometimes seems to me that more people are "unhealthily" proud of their dogs than of their spouses, kids or professional achievements :rock_3 :lol::lol::lol:

I think all informations needed for this litter is already available here on the database for breeders. And no, I don´t think the list would have changed anything.

Ina

I see more problems than solutions with this list !
How to be 100%(not 99%) sure that some dog is the reason for some defect ? How can you exclude the ancestors of this dog if they are already death and have no DNA-sample ?

When to dogs makes puppies, not all puppies get same genes from the parrents(or grand parrents) and some dogs who have defects don`t pass on the defects to puppies, so I don`t understand the reason for this list ?

But maybe it is just me who is stupid :ehmmm

Knowing the dog(puppies from this dog, parrents, grand parrents and siblings) you want to use for breeding, will always be the best solution.
When all comes to all, you can NEVER be sure of how puppies will turn out to be, dosent matter pedigree, bonitation or DNA ?

Another question : when will a defect be big/bad enough for a dog to be addet to this list ? who will be judge for this defects(everybody know that two judges can judge different) ?
....So back to the main question : How to 100% sure that some defects come from the dog in question ? ...this list will always be subjective from judge to judge and therefor the list is useless ...in my opinion !

Rolf

Remove the words "list" and "suspicious", I know writing it they were not well chosen, replace them by "breeding experiences shared knowledges".

Breeder X noticed that when crossing dog A with dog B, but also when crossing dog A with dog C, D or E, it gives always the particularity Y etc... so on for relatives... I guess there are a lot to share and it's would be easier access, so more used, if documented somewhere.

So if I get this right, this "breeding experiences shared knowledges database" will only be for dogs who have made "x" numbers of litters ? how many litters should that be to be sure that two or three choices of mate, was not just bad choices maked by the breeder(not all breeders have big experience) ? or in other words, how to be sure that the bitch(or stud dog) is due to the particular defect "Y" ? If only one litter is made, then who is to blame for defect ? and dosent matter who is to blame, what can you use it for(serious breeders want to see future mates with their own eyes, before choosing) ? I think to make such a database you must be 100% sure, so who will have authority to add info in this database, the breeders them selves or some judge ? I think non can be objective enough to make such a database ! I think this will just open for more accusations(true and false) on various breeders, but will not give 100% true datas on the breed !
I am sorry but I can not see/understand how to make such a database all facts/true 100% sure.... and if it is not 100% facts/true, what is the use for this ?

Rolf

Conditions of applications are to define, nothing is for nothing, there is work to do for everybody. Even if all would be not 100% accurate, how can one say yet that the overall benefit would be not positive at the end ?

sorry but I just don`t see what benefits there will be from such a database(compared to this one), if you are not afraid to call and visit breeders of interest for breeding, I think you can find all you will need here on this site ....even not all is fact/true :roll:

Sorry I just don`t see the purpose ? ...I will NEVER trust some database more than my own eyes and experiences anyway ;-)

Rolf

It would be the perfect world if all breeders would do like that, but reality is reality, and worth giving some info than nothing no ?
What about seeing not only the male or female, but also grand-parents, and more far away, relatives ? What about dead dogs we still need to have some info on what they trace etc...

Please furyos behave yourself, nobody touch in your name's here and everyone is arguing well and in peace at moment, don't try change it.

You started very interesting topic - "black list of dog with problems".... :)

Such list you mentioned exist but it will be never published... There is no way to do it... ;) But it is good to talk about such cases because things which are spoken behind the back make in many cases more problems and sometimes they can be really bad. It is really better to talk about it openly EVEN if someone can feel attacked... ;)

There is always a problem with the rumours which are told by the breeders. You have to be REALLY very careful with it because there is a lot false information spread through internet to make some dogs and breeders worsers than they really are...

One case: there was a nice dog. Two breeders covered their females with him but the females stayed empty. The breeders stared to talk "the stud dog is responsible for it - he can not have puppies". For some years other breeders avoid covering with this male - nobody was prepare to risk. When the stud dog owner discovered it he made the test by the male. The male was... 100% OK. Short time later first litters of this dog were born.
So the false opinion spread by some breeders which were not able to plan the mating right and probably visited the male too early (or too late) cause almost that an interesing dog was not used by other breeders.

Another case: there is a very nice dog with good HD-results (both his parents are HD-A) giving HORRIBLE Hd-results by the puppies. The problem is in the database you can only see good results of his offsprings - other are hidden, some not published (for example dog which penn hips are operated before they were old enough to make official HD-results). So officialy it is good dog with normal results by his offsprings but "implicated" breeders know not to use him. Other breeders do and they are suprised by the horrible HD-results not only by the puppies but also by puppies of this puppies... Because OFFICIALY everything seems to be OK with this dog... And nobody will blame this dog OFFICIALY and put him of the "black list" because there are no OFFICIAL proofs...
Expecially when it comes to the heath some breeders will make everything to hide the facts. Some years ago we had huge fight between the breeders and the owner - the dog become problems to walk in young age already so it had to be operated because of a very strong HD. Later the owners asked us to put "HD-E (unofficial)" as result in the database even in the results was not HD-E but much worser. After it the breeders attacked the owner will all possible methods and asked to remove the results because "Yes, the dog has dysplasia. Yes, it is so strong that the dog can not walk BUT it can not be written into the database because there is no proof which degree it OFFICIALY" was...
In the fact the breeder was right and in the database you can only find offical results but it also means: you can not find there REALLY hard cases where the dogs were put down opr operated because of strong HD. Such serious cases are "hidden" for 'usual' breeders....

As you can see in both cases there were no prooves but people were talking behind the back of the owners - that the first dog can not have puppies and the second gives dysplasia. Only if you talk about it you can give people the chance to be cleared of the charges (first case) and in second case to warn them from making mistakes... But you can not make OFFICIAL list basing on this. So the only solution for the breeders is to be as good informed as they can...


BUT now back to Orlik... It was exactly the case of the rumours which breeders were spreading some information around and nobody was checking it... But it was not about Orlik but about Omar z Krotkovského dvora. In Czech Republic I heard many times "Slovakian wolfdogs have problems with curly hair because of Omar". The same I heard in Slovakia - that this dog is responsible for the hair problems. But for me it was very suspicious because there was a kennels where you hade some curly coated puppies in every litter. With ONE exception - it was the litter where the father was ... Omar. This litter was "curly coat free"... ;) So we collected all the cases of curly coared dogs (not only the cases discovered during the bonitation but also many example which we collected from the breeders). We put it into the database and the computer found out that it was not Omar - the common ancestor was Orlik...

Should we put him on the black list? I don't think so... Why? Because all dogs have advantages and faults... ;)
In the Orlik case - when it comes to the hair you must pay attention and not to make strong inbreeds because the possibility that the puppies will have also curly hair is much higher than by other matings. The same is also with using dogs which are strong inbreeds on Orlik - when you mate female (which has low inbreed coefficient) with male which is "high inbreed on Orlik" you will also have huge possibility many curly coated puppies will be born because they will get more from the father than from the mother.
So the question is why people use offsprings of Orlik? Answer is clear - hair is not everything. Curly hair "typ Orlik" has better quality than by many other lines (there are many CzW which have wrong soft hair - but nobody cares for it and nobody check this problem). Many dogs from this line give great rich coat (but not mix it with long as by some longaired dogs).
I also had no problems to use for my females dogs which have Orlik (3,4 generation) because all the males were known for giving puppies with very stable character and very good penn hip results. All of them were typical dogs with normal hair. So the advantages were bigger than the "risk" and the puppies heritated exactly what I expected.
But 'no' - I personally would not make stronger inbreed on Orlik because in the most cases I saw it finished with the hair by the puppies far from being "typical" CzW coat.


Orlik is only one of the examples - there are many dogs with Orlik in ther pedigree. And it is really nothing wrong - it not make the worser than other dogs - in some cases they can be even better: I personally would take a very nice typical dog with good character and good hips and Orlink in the pedigree than a dog without Orlik but looking untypical, doggish and with agressive character. Because the point of breeding and making the progress base on taking the best and discarding the bad things... If you will be able to discard the curly hair by Orlik you will get nice dogs, with nice character and in the most cases good hips. The breeders must only pay attention while making the inbreeds because of the PROBABILITY. In some cases you can see that because some breeders have no idea about the RISK they make strong inbreeds on Orlik and their puppies are more and more curly coated - they make selection... but the selection goes in the direction "curly coated Wolfdogs"... thay make exactly the wrong "genes" stronger instead of trying to breed them out.


From the genetic point it is also problematic because most cases must be examined basing on the genetics of OUR breed. Already in the theory it is not so easy to follow because curly hair is incompletely dominant. Additionaly you have different degrees of curly hairs - sometimes it is only some curly hair on the back or/and rump. Sometimes you have curly hairs on the whole body (the dogs look like sheeps).

Curly hair is not the only "hair problem":
- the curly hairs are not only "typical" for Orlik and Slovakian dogs because you have the same problem (one line) in Czech Republic - the same problems but these dogs have nothing to do with Orlik so it must come from other ancestors.
- we have dogs with too short hair (there are already whole lines of dogs with untypical too short hair but they are never listed because the judges never know if they see a dog with untypical too short coat or the dogs are shedding)
- we have longhaired dogs - they appear mostly in Italy but the problem comes from the German Shepherd Dogs - so it can appear by other lines too but the italian breeder make selection on such coat and the problem appears by him much more frequenty. Such hair is also very problematic for working breed (problems with overheating)
- there are dogs with soft coat - it is also problematic because such hair looks normal but are not weather resist as the typical CzW hair (for example ddogs with soft coat ry much longer than typical dogs). Also here nobody follow and fight with these faults...

We have really a lot to do and a lot to select... ;) Anyway we have much bigger problems - sure we have to pay attention for everything also the hair (because they are pretty common last time) but we have much more serious problems:
- open lips - we have already whole lines where NOT EVEN ONE dog has typical dry lips. Open lips and too heavy doggish heads are by some lines not "exceptions" but real INVASION ;)
- heavy heads - we have some lines which are already so far away from being wolfish that when you will change the colour of the dogs from wolfish grey to brown you will get TYPICAL ... German Shepherd Dogs...
- with heavy heads come also wrinkles - there are more and more dogs which look like shar peis - have so many wrinkles on their heads... It makes the heads to look untypical and the number of such dogs is rising
- heavy dogs - the tendency to breed as big dog as possible caused that there are more and more CzW which are so badly build (heavy and limphatic) that the dogs have even problems to pass the 20 km exams...
- character - everybody criticise shy dogs. Sure they can not be called typical CzW. But there are more and more dogs which are too calm - lazy, lymphatic CzW which do not want to move, which is not active is also NO typical CzW. In the whole history I do not know even one dog which get "Oj"-character code ( flegmatic, calm temperament) but I know already some new dogs which really deserve such description... It is sad to see that Anatolian and Caucasian Shepherd of you friends are much more actiuve than some CzWs I know... ;)

And for sure we can find more....

But still I can say that problems with the exterier are not so problematic as the problems with the health... If the dog has curly coat it can live happy for years. But when you have dog which is not able to move at the age of 8 monts...it is the end...
And it is much more problematic to follow because many breeders and owners hide health problems...

I will not say coat is no important but it is nothing compared to the bigger and bigger amount of CzW with ED problems. Why? Nobody cares for ED so the breeders breed with CzW even if it is proven that the dogs have elbow dysplasia....


....BUT....

We will never be able to prepare any black list. We can notice the problems, collect the information, store HD, ED, PRA results but all we will have are just pure suspicion and cases which we can proove with smaller or bigger probability.
Yes, we do it - we collect the results, store the rumours and goosips. But we make it the same way other breeders do. Maybe in the future we will have some good results and we can find out some problematic "lines" or "dogs" but now... we can only discuss it unofficialy here on forum... ;)

On the other hand I'm for such disscusion even if for some people it will look like muckraking.I was really amused when I heard some goosips but last time I'm really shocked about the amount of false informaton spread by jealous breeders about other dogs and other breeders.
If you heard some rumours and accusations spread behind the back of others - just write it here... We can always check it in public - what we know and what we have - basing on the facts and not on the "top secret fairy tales" which are so popular last time... ;)
It will be really great when even one dog or one breeder can be cleared from the accusations....

You right - in the most cases such "private" list are much worser that the official disscusions (or even gentle "fights"). It is always s better to have the chance to disscus something in public because you can not argue with the gossips spread behind your back.

On the other hand I understand the breeders. If you are honest you loose... ;)

Look some topics below... ;) I really had no problems to publish that one of dogs from my kennel is only 64 cm... The result? Because of being fair and honest I had to read pompous words written by some breedders "the dog is for nothing". Words written by breeders which have dogs with not only one fault but many serious; which have no one but more too small dogs, breed with them but they hide the reality by not making the bonitations (or writting in the bonitation code bigger size than the dogs really are) and not showing the dogs in public places where someone can see them...

The same is with HD-results. In Czech Republic the club choosed the good way and publish all HD-results. They are fair and hide nothing. But what is the result - in some cases the Czech breeders are worser evaluated than some breeders from other countries which send only good HD-result and spread the information "my puppies are much better than the Czech because in CZ some have HD and all my dogs are only HD-A or HD-B"...
I guarantee you than many puppy buyers will choose let say French kennel with 50 dogs bred where you have only 5 dogs with HD-results all of them HD-A (and maybe 10 other dogs which were tested but the results are hidden because the dogs were HD-C, HD-D and HD-E) and not the Czech kennel where the breeder has 20 puppies - 15 tested with HD-A and HD-B and let's say 3 dogs HD-C. Because in the first case they will see only HD-A results, and by the Czech kennel they will see HD-A, HD-B and HD-C... ;)
Hiding results really works and it is also the reason why so many breeders do not want to publish all information...

So we can make some "statistics" only when all clubs will work together - we can make statistisc of HD but ONLY when we will get all official HD-results... We can not base on the sincerity of the breeders... ;) Sad but true...

Hmmmmm…

I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ?

DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better.
You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se…

Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety.

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Yes some breeders will try to cheat, but whit a DNA database it will be harder to do this, not easier.

And even whit about 4-6 standard DNA results the breeders will have to look at the exterior,
and the buyers will have to look fore work, bonitation and show results.

The DNA database would bee a complement fore the breeders, not a 100% breeding standard list.

And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please.

But I understand way some breeders do not wont DNA tests,
because it will cost a bit and there is no way to hide away a bad result.

Best regards / Mikael

No good breeder will be really aganist DNA tests, but we need see how this DNA test will be made, I saw the topic about the DNA tests on Belgiun, I'm really glad by their movement for the good breeding but they leave some holes that can and surelly will be used for bad breeders sake, or you really believe that someone who wants sold mixes dogs will lost the opportunity to have a mix "DNA-tested pure breed CzW"?
If I live in Belgium I will be really against this test because the way it will be done and the huge problem it will brings.
But I really think in see how much will coast for make DNA test in all litter I do, and, if possible, talk with the laboratories for we make a DNA database as save the blood line of the dogs for possible future use, but this is for a not much far future.

It isn't so easy like that, if we map the breed you will see that almost all dogs and all lines will carry a problem, some more serious and some less.
Even that will not mean we can put out all dogs wich have or pass problems, unhaply we not have genetic pool for do it.

I really wish this day comes soon as possible, but I know that it will leave still much time, so we cannot count with such tecnology now. :(

Quote:

And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think.

Some diseases are in the breeding, most part we nor are able to imagine, CzW is a new breed and we don't know how many illness exists already and how are tipical or would be if lack correct selection.
But, we enter again in the poor genetic pool problem, and this will follow all breeders until the line be PROPERLLY open.
Soppose we find a old displasic CzW with a really rare line, a uncommon line wich will make a really good open of blood.
What would you, as breeder do?
Put this dog outside breeding because his hips isn't good enough and kill a new open pure line with the future death of this old dog?
Make alitter with he using a famale with really good hips and wich is pretty know for pass these good hips for it's offsprings?
Every people with common sense will have the first action, take the dog out the breeding because his bad hips, but it isn't so easy, doing it you will lost a really good opportunity to open the line of the breeding with a pure animal, and you can't imagine how this is precious for every breed with such little genetic pool.
If we take the second option, use the displasic dog with a good female, all puppies probably will carry the displasy gene, supose that 50% will show the problem and 50% not, with selection we can fix again the displasy problem in this specific line, and everyone that will use this line must be awared about it.
Remembering with the high consanguinity in this breed, probably every dog carry the displasy problem, but most part of good selected animals with correct body don't show it.
If we don't use this displasic open lined dog, soon more illness than only displasy will appear because the high imbreeding, it will be worst than displasic puppies I can guarantee it to you, soon we will need open the line with.. a carpatian wolf, it wil be like start of the 0 again with the new line, a lot of work will must be done for this new line be tipical at the CzW again, principally in behaviour.
Every decision must be really well thinked before be done, principally when we talk about take lines out of breeding.
Remembering that I'm not saying here that is correct use displasyc dog, or that displasic dogs may not be discarted of breeding, but if appear a very special case like the one I cited here.

Good breeders have nothing to hide, this site show it perfectly.
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack.
So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.

I would like to add that not all breeders care about this site due to personal problems, a lot of gossip and talking behind the back + many other reasons and for most parts it is the owner of the dog and not the breeder who add info about HD/ED/Bonitation/etc. ...it is not always bad breeders just because missing info ...some breeders sell many dogs abroad and loose contact with the new owners and some breeders just don`t add the info on this site(for many reasons), it does not mean that you are a bad breeder or are hiding info just because you don`t add info to a private site ! ....remember this is a private owned site for CSW ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Ithis case probably will lack information about the litter and the own dogs sometimes, even they will ask for take then out of the breeders list and even theyrs dogs of the database.
In this case wner/breeder can send e-mail tho this breeder asking for information about litters and a copy of the HD / ED results too, quest how many dogs had problems and so on, it's a interess question, like breeder wich go searching for informations about possible problematic dogs in the breed
But, we can find some breeders wich not like here, announce his litters and send the datas... only of the good results dogs, so, its pretty interessing whern you have alitter with 2 dogs C and the others without result isn't it? ;-)

I just don`t want to put all breeders in the same two boxes(good and bad) I am sure that some breeders who don`t add info, is just like you wrote, but not all ...for sure ! ...please keep an open mind ;-)

Greetings Rolf

I'm keeping my mind open, maybe you misunderstand me, I told breeders wich not put information here can be contacted particullary and who have interess in this breeder can make the questions wich want for the breeder, like asking for a copy of photo of the HD and ED results.
I never told here that they're bad because not put informations here, it's only you read again. ;-)

Who have nothing to fear won't hide informations, I really won't believe in a breeder wich only say "I never have problems in my kennel, all my dogs are healty and HD free" without show and proof it to me with official pappers, even a copy or photo.

Sorry I misunderstod.... I too also only belive in what I see for my self and not just what have been said :)

Greetings Rolf

No, nobody will be against such tests. It is the best thing which can be done BUT so far you do not have the DNA tests to check if the dog carry dysplasia, ED, heart problem, epilepsy, aso.... Such test are available for some other breeds but so far I know they can used only by the breeds which were tested and not for all (almost int he most cases they are also useless for us because they check decreases which never appear by CzWs)...
Some illnesses are not inheritated on a simple way and more genes are responsible for it - in such cases maybe it will be never possibile to make any DNA tests...

Anyway I don't want to say the people here do nothing and hide everything. NO! I have really good news for you... Since some years we collect information about reasons of death - we put into the database when the dog died, why (if it was natural reason or not). Thanks to the breeders and owners we will be able soon to make first statistics how long CzW really live (when we will filter out the unnatural reasons) and the most common causes.

But it is not all - we collect also infromation about the health: the breeders and owners can choose if the information they send will be published on the Wolfdog or not (and used only for statistisc and other tests).

So the infromation is already collected and will appear in the new database....

Rolf, I know this words....8) You know WHY it is now private owned site? Because according the law it can not be OUR comunity site. It MUST stay private... WHY? The breeders which words you cite at the moment forced us to make it so... It is old story and I don't want to repeat it again but the "poor breeders which do not want to add info to the private site" has been banned on Wolfdog for the cheating with the Mixes (famous Mutara-gate) and MANY other offences. But believe me - they belong to our most active users and pay huge attention to have all information listed here... :lol:

And other breeders?
As you know Wolfdog base on cooperation - nobody forse people to use the possibility to advertise here. For example it is clearly wrote by adding the ad about the new litter:
"Free-of-charge advertisements base on reciprocal benefits - You get a chance to announce your litter effectively and for free and we receive from you the information about puppies and owners as a "payback". Until you don't fulfill the conditions described in paragraph 7) you will not be able to place more advertisements. Resending of the overdue information to us will result in your future advertisements being published again."
Do you know how many breeders keep contact only till they sell the puppies... after it we get nothing... till the next litter. And when you do not publish the next litter they write about "persecution of their kennel"... :lol:

No Rolf, believe me - the really good breeders I know have always all their information listed here. Even if it is not for them they make it for the puppy owners (the new owners can not add photos to the gallery or show results of their dogs till the dog is not listed in the database).
With small exceptions where the breeder really do not have time or has some personal problems the principle is:
"missing information in the database = unresponsible breeder or even puppy mill"
Sorry, it is so...

Sorry Margo, but you are wrong ! ...the breeders witch words I cite live in Denmark and have NOTHING at all to do with Mutara or law of your website, in fact I am not even sure that they know about Mutara ? ...they just dont want to join all the gossip, talking behind the back and listen to peoples(they never even meets) personal problems with eachother, I truely understand them, sometimes I think the gossip here is too much and the facts is too little.... I am here on this site to learn, to exchange experiences and to see what is going on in the world of CSW`s ...I am not here to have meningless argues or to talk shit about others :roll:

As I wrote before - Please keep an open mind !

Greetings Rolf

So is it better to keep the information about everyone's dog in secret? :roll: I think every responsible breeder or owner should be VERY happy there is a database like this and we all should try to put here as much information about wolfdogs as possible...

As I wrote in an earlier post, it is not a secret just because it is not addet to a private owned site(or any site for that matter) ....I am sure if you contact thise breeders they will gladly answer all your questions ...also keep in mind that not all breeders(other people too) care about internet, even more some people don`t speak other languages than their own and some don`t have international interests ! .....does this make them bad breeders/owners ? :shock:

I can write this over and over again - Please keep an open mind ;-)

Greetings Rolf

Ok, but if there is an international database, why not to put information here? i do not see any reasons. The breeders and owners of other breeds get very surprised then they hear about such a great thing as wolfdog.org, why not to support it by information (not money, time or smth else)

Hello Mikael. One reaction to your first question. You mean, Orlik had curly coat. But Orlik had parents too. He MUST have it from some parent. You can ask us: Why was in breeding his father Rep z PS, if he had not corect coat?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/cs/gallery/pic/23768/
I answer you: in 80. years of 20. century was 75% of slovakian population related to Rep z PS. If breeders could´not use him, the breeding was ending in the begin of breeding. I remember Rep z PS. It was wonderfull male with dancing steps, ideal male. So we must ignorate some defect. He gived much good dogs and some bad, of course. It is reason, why we must to do selection.
Maybe it is answer for other people in second forum. Unfortunatelly not exist selection!!!! Much people "produces" all wolfdogs. Without bonitation, without HD results, not exist breeding comission for guarding of health of breed....Sad.
Funny is when bad dogs (for breeding here) from Czech republic are sold to west Evropa and they are "perfect" breeding dogs. It is normal:lol:.
I think, we have not chance to change it, when we will sell pups by money. If somewhere are money, other things are outside. But we are people, it is BASE of people:lol:.

Hi hi, Daiva. Will you write about your dogs openly to all World? For example : "my male has operated bones or my dog have bad teeth," etc etc....? And if somebody will know some top secret info about your dogs and this person will write here: Don´t use Daiva male, he has this and this.....I think, you will never speak with this people...Or yes?
So I think, this situation is normal (to keeping of "bad " info top secret), but I don´t think it is good. But nobody can change it.
Exist thousands defects of this breed. But good breeder CAN watch it and he CAN use only good dogs for breeding. Maybe only for his good feeling.
And if somebody breed dogs with defect and he knows it.....nobody can change it.

Let's be honest - do you really think adding information about their litters means they MUST be active on Wolfdog? If they have normal litters (no huge inbreed, aso) they really do not need to be affraid of nothing.
On the other side: breeding of dogs is not rising puppies for new owners but it is about the whole breed. When I have the litter I have it not only to sell thew puppies and to be happy the puppies have nice new owners... Sure, it is the main thing but beside of it I make matings that can be useful for other breeders. That's why I'm asking dog owners to make x-rays, breeding rights even if the want to have dog "only" as family member...

And you will find MANY breeders which handle similar way - they make litters, have new owners, but at the same time they really do something for the breed. Some of them NEVER wrote a post here, they are not involved in the fights and nobody never wrote their name here in bad way.... But still they send the infromation and updates - typical responsible breeders which really care not only for themself....

I really do not want to attack them but imagine - maybe there are some interesting males, interesting healthy lines in Denemark. It is good to hide them? Information about them if they can help us to make the breed better, healthier?

Vaiva I agree with you, it would be nice and better if everybody did this, but I think people have the right to not care about internet or not to have interest about it ...this does not make them bad owners or breeders !
Don`t misunderstand me, I like this database a lot, but still not all people have to like the same or have same interests as me to be good owners/breeders/friends !

Greetings Rolf

Daiva did not write even a thing on this topic, so I guess you meant Vaiva :twisted: It is easy for me, of course, to say "yes", but maybe it is just because I only have one female wolfdog and no litters yet :twisted: You know, if you are open and have no "top secrets", nobody will see any reasons to speak secretly something bad about you and your dogs :)
Being open is a best thing to feel safe from any gossiping ;)

Hmmmm, so not Daiva. My answer was to Vaiva:lol:. But the questions and anwsers are always the same :lol:. And one question more: why you have almost the same nick?:p

Well, these are our names. Real ones. Daiva Rimaityte and Vaiva Zostautaite ;) There is also a Lithuanian name Vaida, so don't be surprised if one day... :twisted: But this is OT :lol:

I hope no Vaida has wolfdogs too:lol:. bye Hanka

No Margo I don`t think that people have to be active on this site to add info about their dogs, but I think ALL breeders have some puppies(somewhere in the world) they don`t have contact with after puppies got new owners, this dosent make breeders bad breeders, but makes it impossible for the breeder to send updates. ...and yes I know for a fact that we have some interesting healthy lines in Denmark, but owners don`t have interest about breeding for many different reasons. I agree with you that it would be best for the breed if ALL owners(not only in Denmark) of CSW would make HD/ED/bonitation of their dogs, but many people don`t even know what is bonitation and people who don`t have interest about breeding does not make xrays of their dogs unless they are sick or unhealthy in some way, they are just happy to have a CSW companion, I am sorry to say this, but in Denmark most people who are dog-owners don`t care for breeding, showing or training, they just want to have a family dog and they really don`t think that far that their dog maybe would be usefull for the entire breed, I am sorry but this is fact !

I don`t protect them and I don`t attack them, I speak my mind with them and hope that they will get same interest as me for our breed, but if not, it is still okey with me, I don`t mind people have different opinions, ideas or interests than me, but ofcourse I can be sad that they don`t understand the how importent their dogs might could be for the breed that I love so much ....But I don`t think it makes them bad persons !

Greetings Rolf

It is not the problem... In the case when somebody writes "Vaiva (not Daiva), I heard your dog has operated bones and bad teeth". She can answer: "it is bullshit. My dog is HD-A and here is the certificate. And here is the bonitation code that teeth are perfect".

The problem is when some people are telling something like this, when is it bullshit (sorry, for such word) but Vaiva has no idea that it is told behind her back and she can not write "No, it is nit true. It is just story told by another jealous breeder" but she wonders that puppy buyers get "nice emails" saying "Do not buy puppy from her". :rock_3 I tell you, Vaiva would be happy if she will have the chance to fight with such people and such bad undeserved opinions... 8)

Hello Hanka

I am sorry but I never askt about Orlik, or heas coat...:rock_3

I think you mean Elf :)

Best regards / Mikael

Yes, of course, sorry:rock_3

Only short mesage for my "friend", which likes resend my answers to other people. Please read my answer once again:


Hello Mikael. One reaction to your first question. You mean, Orlik had curly coat. But Orlik had parents too. He MUST have it from some parent. You can ask us for example: Why was in breeding his father Rep z PS, if he had not corect coat?

I answer you: in 80. years of 20. century was 75% of slovakian population related to Rep z PS. If breeders could´not use him, the breeding was ending in the begin of breeding. I remember Rep z PS. It was wonderfull male with dancing steps, ideal male. So we must ignorate some defect. He gived much good dogs and some bad, of course. It is reason, why we must to do selection.

Did you read somewhere I think Rep was bad???
Some people here are sooo friendly:snipersmilie

Sorry Hanka, but I do not understand what you mean ???

I have still never askt any questions about Orlink or heas coat ???

Please quote me !!!

Regards / Mikael

Not you, of course...I only copy my first answer with bad name. I know you did not ask about him :o)).
There was important my answer about REP :o)

Hi, when You see REP in real life? maybe You have hes photo? cann send me this photo?

thanks

I had some black-white old fotos, but they are lost already. And I was so stupid and I lended my old materials to one potential new owner of my puppy and I lost much fotos, old articles:banghead. But it is past......
But belive me, she was so beautiful (for me :lol:), especially his movement. I remember him on World show in 1990. His owner was standing in show ring and Rep "danced" around him on the leash......I will remember it for all life :o)

eh I wish this see.


:( i houpe have beautiful hes head photo (we wish have this to LT club), but i see this is problematic.

thanks