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CzW breeders in UK
Hi.
As far as I know England is the only European country prohibiting CSV import. I should like to know why and if any other countries also prohibit such import. --- Per Olav |
Import
if they are prohibiting, then why is their one already here? i'm in the uk
and really would love a CzW or SW but i have been told that it is the breeders that don't want them here. if anyone knows of any breeders who are willing. please, please could you let me know? laura |
Import
Thank you, Laura.
Some time ago someone on this list wrote that the CSV was not allowed imported to England due to English import regulations. I should like to have more exact information, please. Let me rewrite my posting :-) In Norway the following breeds are banned due to their reputation as "fighting dogs": Fila Brasileiro, Tora Inu, Dogo Argentino and Pit Bull Terrier. These breeds are also banned in several other countries. As far as I know any country has accepted the CSV as a legal breed and every kennel club, except the Swedish one, has recognized the breed according to FCI approval. I should like to know of any country where the CSV is not allowed or banned and the reason why this is so. Per Olav |
VERY UPSET!
Hallo Laura,
I don't know how many breeders you've asked for a puppy, but probably not the right ones. I also don't know where you live. I'am from Czech Republic. Here are some breeders who would sell you for £1900 maybe their wife or husband.:-)) But you can find here some breeders who are choosing the future owner of their puppy. What is not good for Csw for sure is to let the dog almost all the time with pack. They need to bild up a relation with you individually. And they need gite enough of owners time If they should be well-bred. You can have your dog in his own room but It is not good to let the dog closed too long. I have my Brenna in our flat. I have no problems to let her there alone for five or six hours per day when I need it. But problem starts when there is not just one dog.They are very inventive. You should really meet more dogs and their owners. I think nature of Csw depends from big part on the owner and life conditions prepared for this dog. Even If the dog seems to be shy already as a puppy you can still more or less change this. I have never met any Csw which would be agressive to people. This doesen't mean that they don't exist but It's evidence of rare occurrence of agressivity. You can do from Csw very shy dog which is afraid of everything or agressive killer of animals, agressive to people or obedient good socialized dog who likes people and other dogs(little problem is among males which are dominant, but this can be also reduced). These dogs are a little bit special. They have some natural features of behaving. It's really good to read, ask abot everything in what you are not sure, and meet many owners and breeders of Csw. And even if you do this when you would have a puppy of Csw you find out that you still don't know what to do in many situations. Karin |
Re: Csw Ownership in England
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"Import to UK" Greeetings, Margo |
Thanks very much for your reply Margo, I have just found some information on the website of our Dept of Enviroment. It states that "those breeds claiming a wolf content, however diluted must still be licensed under the dangerous wild animal act. It actually mentions the CsW and the Saarloos.
Apparently the local councils in this country that deal with such licenses charge anywhere from 100 to 1000 pounds for them. So my next step is to find out how much my local council will charge. Caly. |
We just added information about first planned CzW litter in UK. Just take a look on this:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1066.html |
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"HOPEFULLY FIRST LITTER TO BE BORN IN U.K" |
hi & greetings to everyone on wolfdog.org sorry i have not added any comments on wolfdogs in uk but i have been in france living with, breeding & studying this breed from whelping of a bitch to rearing pups till they are young adults, i have read all the mails & it is very difficult for margo or any of the team to answer questions regarding importation to uk i know lots of you out there want czech wolfdogs i did & it took me 5 yrs to get one, my bitch & dog are on pet passports issued by the MINISTERY OR DEFRA as it is knowen, the kennel club will tell everyone all the details on how a breed can become reconised infact all the information is very easily obtained on there wed site, it also lists all banned breeds, the czech is not one of them, information on when this breed was reconised in its own country of origin & by the FCI are on WOLFDOG.ORG you will need all this information when asking the kennel club any questions, or they will say sorry its not a reconised breed in uk, i have done all the ground work over the past 6 yrs with the kennel club so in the not to distant future they will be if excepted a breed within the uk, i strongly advise that you learn all you can about this breed before attempting to obtain a puppy, many breeders in europe & beyond will gladly let you visit & see there dogs, highly recommened ,,,,, the first litter will be born next week in the uk, i did put hopefully first litter born in uk as i was waiting to see if my bitch was in whelp, these dogs can not be quarenteened it is out of the question i do not know any breeder that will do this, you have to ask the breeder to keep & rear your puppy till it is 10mths old only then can it get a passport, the breeder will rear & care for this puppy have all its vaccinations blood tests done it then gets vet health checked you then collect your dog, i was very lucky i got to live with & rear my own czech male, i hope this is of some help to you all for the saarloos fans in uk there are already 2 in the uk the male that went in september was checked by local council & defra vet NO LIENCE WAS REQUIRED merry christmas to all the wolfdog.org team & to all you wolfdog fans best regards paul & mandy uk
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with the comments on a wolfdog to be at discover dogs unfortunatly this is not possible dogs are only eligable to go here if they are a reconised breed by the kennel club, but leave it with me i shall have a czechoslovakian wolfdog at discover dogs as soon as i possibly can after 6 years nothing will stop me now regards paul uk
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How to get a dog into the UK?n Where are the UK breeders?
Hello all! LOL :cheesy:
I am looking at the purchase of a Wolfdog; urrr I guess I wouldn't be here otherwise right! 8) I have found lots of UK legislation against bringing the dog into the country, a licence is required. I just can't find a Uk breeder - anyone know of one? I have written to a few European breeders today to gain an idea as to cost and how'd they help on import. I am looking for a companion to my 4 month old Lurcher, the Wolfdog must be good with my two horses and sheep, along with two kids, 2 and 4 years old - oh and the cat - I hope that pup would grow up and get used to the livestock and I have heard good things about the dogs with kids and other family pets. I fear that the Wolfdog is somewhat 'underground' here in the UK and as such is susceptible to interbreeding and dilution of the true breed - all at a cost and loss to the new owner. Help and advice appreciated. Cheers. Mid, North Kent, Nr London, England. :wink: :wink: |
Hello Chris,
you can import dogs from members of the EU without quaranteen. The dog has to be vaccinated against rabies and has to have enough antibodies against rabies what is to be prooved with a blood test. That means: you vaccinate the puppies, what is absolute sensless before the 12th week and should be repeated if you have to be sure that ist is putting up enough antibodies about four weeks later (as far as I can remember it has to be 12 weeks when it´s vaccinated anyway for UK). Then you have to take a blood sample at least three month later (I´me not a 100%sure about the three month difference but I think that was the required period). The blood sample has to be tested by a specialised laboratory (there is a list for every country, the vet in the exporting country knows). If the antibodytiter is high enough you are allowed to import the dog to UK, it has to get a wormtreatment against a special sort of tapeworm and against ticks shortly before and you ar only allowed to use a few airports and ports for importing. That means, you need a breeder that is willing to keep the dog till this age, that is socialising it properly in this period and that is willing to to the bloodtest for you. Of course that will make the price for the dog a lot higher than normal. If your dog has been successfully tested once, you just have to revaccinate it regulary, but you don´t have to repeat the test (that is the rule for Sweden and should be for the UK too, because it is going to be the same for all EU countries , with those speciallities for the quarantee-countries). Regards Ina |
Re: How to get a dog into the UK?n Where are the UK breeders
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Disgraceful incestuous behaviour to be reported to kennel cl
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As a father of two who has for 10 years managed livestock, horses and the alike, I can say that this so called breeder may have a reputation as a breeder with superb dogs, however it's the first time, and I'm getting to old for this adolescent horseplay, I have ever had to deal with an imbecile like this; a rude and thoughtless character who due to my lack of knowledge of the dog world (as if I cared about the politics) and because I simply wanted a pet and asked questions any normal person would ask, was verbally threatened and had to deal with email comment such as 'id rather eat from the gutter than sell you a puppy' arose which would be seen as gross misconduct in any other professional walk of life. Until I saw this hopeless and over the top slander I was keen to stay quiet and thought that he might grow up and change his mind; indeed many of my dog friends wanted to have a quite word in his ear, but I bit my lip and apologised for asking simple questions, but I am disgusted with his quote above so much so that I write this to you all, he even lied and said that he wouldn't post this slander'. . The kennel club in the UK has a code of ethics which Paul has broken. Treating perspective customers like shit is not part of the deal because I question the price or ask if I can take pictures of pups to validate them; yes I'm a complete novice at this - and yes a little common courtesy and assistance would have been great. I am so upset. It may not effect him much but anything to stop him treating others like this is worth the hassle of contacting the UK club here and word or mouth is a fast fast thing - for instance; are you chaps from Tenham that were stopped from breeding Huskies - like you said it's a tight old world out there - is this true. Stop to think sir - your mails have been totally abusive, I never loose my temper - but you have pulled the plug - you put me down for no reason in such a horrific way - you absolutely shock me. Thank fully given mails sent to my PM I can safely say that you are not the norm you are by comparison what people don't want, you aren't happy unless some poor fool hands you cash without a clue.:wink: :frown: |
Can I point something out politely? Your posting makes no sense at all. You are entitled to a voice, and I am interested in reading what you have to say, but the above posting is unitelligible. What's all this incest? Please clarify, for your own sake.
I have visited Paul and Mandy, and I have agreed to take one of the pups, so I guess that makes me one of the fools you were referring to. It's a risk I'll take, and I suppose that means that I am satisfied with what I have seen, heard, and expect. Read my postings on your original thread concerning the death of Lynx, if you want a better description of my position. I am an experienced dog owner, and a student of comparative ethology, hoping to specialise in wolves at a later date. Now, I may just be wrong, but I get a distinct impression that there is something you want to spit out, but you haven't. Can I also point out that your thread title 'UK breeders dog dies tonight in accident!' is crassly insensitive, and reads like a facile tabloid headline. Maybe you rubbed Paul and Mandy up the wrong way with this, and maybe they are genuinely concerned that you come across as not taking the ownership of a dog seriously. I am not saying that is the case, but your original postings DID create an impression, and remember that we are only as good as the words on this site, as we don't know each other. Everything else is an investment of faith, and given what I have just said, we here in these forums have to propagate that faith built solely on a few words in a posting, and not on the relationships we have in the real world. A place like this is therefore a place where you could realise your dreams, and get the pet you so desire, or you could end up bitterly dissapointed, and fleeced into the bargain. Whatever you want to say, please say it clearly, without ambiguity and be the devil's advocate; throw it into the public arena. We can all talk about it like adults then, with no insults and with an exhaustive objectivity where possible. I'm not singling you out saying that. It is something we should all do. I thought we were all here with a common love of both dogs, and the Czech. Let's all be grown up about it please, or we all (and I mean all) end up looking like a group of inbred oafs. Conor |
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l l Wise words conor.. have to say that I'm quite surprised with some of the comments some people give and get around here.. I mean most of you are gown up right ?.. except me (17) =) Reaally love these dogs.. well have never met on but for now I'm reading up on all thins I can find about the Csw .. and also canine behaviour. Very intresting stuff, good to now even if you don't own a dog yourself.. yet Jacob |
I shall try to speak clearly, though I am seeing red at the minute and really need to vent my frustration!
I am sure everyone agrees with you, Paval about what a complete travesty this whole thing is, but we need to know what we can do to help Paul? Although we accept that these animals are plain and simple dogs, DEFRA simply does not agree, and they are not the kind of organisation to back off easily. We need to band together and drag DEFRA into the present, because they sure as hell ain’t living in it yet! There is no doubt in my mind that the DEFRA paper regarding wolf ‘hybrids’ is totally inappropriate to the concerns of the Czech and Saarloos. Reading the paper makes you realise that the ‘facts’ shown there are drawn from, and aimed at, direct wolf / dog crosses, NOT our breeds! The information given is archaic to say the least, and does not pertain to either breed in either form or context. This is breed victimisation, plain and simple! Why are the Czech and Saarloos seen as such immense threats to society? There has never been a case of human injury recorded against either breed, and there is no obvious cause for concern regarding their instigation into UK society, and yet DEFRA is intent upon demonising these breeds just like the United States vilifies the wolf / dog crossbreed! Don’t get me wrong in this, the wolf / dog crossbreed is an entity that requires serious consideration, and should be monitored and controlled in order to address public safety. These crosses are NOT pets, they are semi-feral creatures, and Government agencies quite rightly should be concerned about their interaction with society! But the Czech and Saarloos are registered breeds; upheld and promoted by non other than the WORLD CANINE FEDERATION and that should speak volumes to the likes of the Kennel Club of Great Britain and DEFRA! I will be interested to hear what the FCI advises Paul, after all, the Kennel Club claims that the FCI has some sway with it, so we’ll see, shall we? I am so sick and tired of this whole ‘if it’s got wolf in it, it’s gonna tear your throat out’ attitude attached to the wolfdog breeds! How many times do we have to explain that if it’s got wolf content, it’s LESS likely to attack you than a standard dog? And you know what really gets me angry? On paper, people (and DEFRA) find wolfdogs more threatening than say, Rotties, or Mastiffs, and yet if you were to put someone in a room with one of each breed (minus it’s owner) we would soon see which one they would run from! And like HELL would it be the Czech / Saarloos! Any dog can attack a human regardless of its wolf bloodline, recent or ancient! In the wrong hands even a Chihuahua can be a dangerous and threatening animal! Believe me, I know this to be a fact! Red Setters, beautiful and placid dogs, but I know one that had to be put to sleep because he turned on his mistress and gave her 17 stitches and a torn ligament. Mishandling? Mal-treatment? Neglect… no. Epilepsy! As you can tell, I am incredibly angry with this whole issue! I’ve wanted a wolfdog ever since I can remember, and have spent the last three years researching the breeds and trying to find a breeder. When Paul and Mandy contacted me, I felt like all my prayers had been answered, not only had I found an UK breeder, but a reputable one toot! Who could ask for more? Well, I don’t see why some antiquated and irrelevant ruling upheld by a red-taped, burocratic and out-of-touch agency should shatter my dream! Come on people - use your voice! Let Paul know you are behind him! Lets band together and shut DEFRA up once and for all! Let’s get the Czech and Saarloos wolfdogs into the UK! |
Hi all,
I am massimo/massusy owner of 2 woldogs (oliver and lunatica). I usually write in the Italian Forum and one of us spread the terrible news about Wofdogs in UK. We were thinking of sending letters or mails to people responsible of Dog world in UK. Maybe they will be useless but by filling their PCs of mails in which so many people and so many other dog owners around europe show they care and show how "harmless" a wolfdog can be maybe they will think that it is the matter to check if reall wolfdogs are so "dangerous". My wolfdogs live at home and have full access to our livinroom. I leave my 10 year old daughter alone with them and believe me, she is the safest child on earth!! Can Paul let us have addresses, mails or any detail about people that can or should decide so we will fill them up of thousands of mails? I guarantee that we will be making as much noise as possible. Personal remark: how stupid to ban a breed in UK with only one breeder knowing that in other countries (European countries) the breed is relatively common.!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Absolutely nor regard at all!! (by the way, i lived 10 years in London and know english habits quite well, unfortunately for many brits Wolf means bad) Thanks a lot and please let us know. Massimo |
Hi Massimo,
I’m so pleased to read your mail! I wondered if us UK wolfdog proponents would get any response from Europe. Paul has told me that the European clubs are very angry about the whole UK situation, and I was really hoping that we could get them behind us! I think your mail drop idea is excellent, but of course the idea needs Paul’s blessing before going ahead. If we can get enough people to mail the necessary people, we might just be able to make some kind of difference to the ruling. It’s one thing complaining and bemoaning the lack of understanding in the UK towards the Czech and Saarloos breeds; but if we can get people who actually own the dogs and who can vouch for them on a person level, the authorities over here might just pay a little attention to our plight. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking but I don’t want to accept the idea that I might never be able to have my dog, and I am willing to back Paul all the way! What is it about the Czech or Saarloos that makes them terrifying enough to place them onto the Dangerous Wild Animal list? Again, we come back to the ‘big bad wolf’ syndrome, Little Red Riding Hood being victimised by the ‘Beastie with the big Teethies’! Well frankly, I am at a loss as to how the UK authorities can renege on their acceptance of the Czech and Saarloos due to their ‘dangerous’ aspect, when they ALREADY have breeds on their register that are renowned for being aggressive! It is my understanding that dogs become banned and restricted due to their threat to society. By threat, I mean those guilty of attacks on humans. Below is a list of dogs accepted and registered by the UK Kennel Club that have been found repeatedly guilty of bite attacks. The breeds shown are used for illustration purposes only, and should not be demonised. I am merely using them to make the point that there are double standards at play in the UK K.C. I use the information given to underline just how mis-advised the Kennel Club of Great Britain and DEFRA are when it comes to deciding what is, and what is not, a dangerous breed! Unfortunately, the bite statistics for these breeds are American based as I have found the UK stats impossible to find. All the breeds listed below have been found guilty of aggressive attacks on humans. Those shown in capitols are currently also registered with the UK Kennel Club. *AKITA; AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD; BOXER; BULLDOG; BULLMASTIF; Chesapeake Bay Retriever; *CHOW CHOW; COCKER SPANIEL; COLLIE (VARIOUS); Coonhound; DACHSHUND (VARIOUS TYPES); *DOBERMAN; GOLDEN RETRIEVER; *GREAT DANE; *HUSKY; Japanese Hunting Dog; LABRADOR RETRIEVER; LHASO APSO, *MALAMUTE; MASTIFF (VARIOUS); NEWFOUNDLAND; *Pit bull "type" (may include crosses or misidentified individuals); POMERANIAN, RHODESIAN RIDGEBACK; *ROTTWEILER; *GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG; *SAINT BERNARD; SHEEPDOG; Sled-"type" (may include crossbreeds) CANAAN DOG, ELKHOUND, FINNISH SPITZ, GERMAN SPITZ, JAPANESE SHIBA INU, JAPANESE SPITZ, KEESHOND, NORWEGIAN BUHUND, SAMOYED, SWEDISH VALLHUND, NORWEGIAN LUNDEHUND; TERRIER - TYPE (may include crossbreeds) VARIOUS; WEST HIGHLAND WHITE TERRIER; Wolf/Dog hybrid, (please be aware that these are direct wolf and dog crossbreeds as bred in the USA, NOT the Czech or Saarloos wolfdog breeds!) YORKSHIRE TERRIER * A study of fatalities caused by dog bites from 1979 through 1996 showed that the Akita, Alaskan Malamute, Chow, Doberman Pinscher, German Shepherd, Great Dane, Husky, Pit Bull, Rottwelier and St Bernard breeds have all killed one or more persons. In fact, the Centre for Disease Control (CDC) in the USA considers these breeds to be the highest risk. Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to over 30 different dog breeds yet the main focus has been geared towards the larger dog breeds: Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans, Akitas etc. Both Czech and Saarloos breeds are large-sized, but does this make them more dangerous than small or medium sized breeds? It has long been summarised that size is indicative of demeanour, i.e., the bigger the dog, the more capable it is to kill. It is a point of fact that a smaller breed is just as capable of killing as a larger one. FACT – California, October of 2000 - a baby was killed by a four pound family Pomeranian dog. FACT – Tennessee, February 2002 - a six-week-old baby mauled by a Jack Russell Terrier. Okay, so both cases are of babies, small in size and completely defenceless, but what about the simple fact of biting a human full stop? Let us question those who are most at risk from dog bites on a daily basis - Vets, Groomers, Kennel and animal shelter staff. Which breeds are they most wary of? When polled, the majority of these workers agreed that most bites result from the small and aggressive Terrier / Spaniel types. Cocker Spaniels, Dachshunds, Scottish Terriers, Schnauzers, West Highland Terriers and Yorkshire Terriers where all listed time and time again as the culprits of aggressive behaviour! Bites from larger dogs, though not unheard of, are declared as occurring far less frequently. It is clear to me that the media are only interested when a large dog bites. Most people will tend to report a large dog for being aggressive, but will overlook a small dog’s attack. Do they find it ‘embarrassing’ admitting to being attacked by a 10lb fur-ball? Also, I believe that when large dogs attack it is generally taken out of context, with vital evidence of what provoked the dog being omitted from the story. For example, Maryland, USA was horrified to hear of a 13-year-old boy being mauled by a Pit Bull Terrier. Was this another case of that fatal combination: incompetent owner with an uncontrollable animal? FACT - when the boy was bitten he was leaning over the garden fence into the dog owner’s yard, teasing the Pit Bull kept there. FACT - the SAME child had been warned THREE times by the owner to leave her dog alone. FACT - having experienced severe problems with locals teasing and provoking her dog, the owner contacted the local authorities for advice on how to best protect her dogs, and those stupid enough to aggravate them! FACT - according to an adult eyewitness, DESPITE having received THREE verbal warnings, this lad blatantly ignored the numerous ‘No Trespassing’ and ‘Beware of the Dog’ signs and continued to trespass on the Pit Bull’s property! FACT – the dog was not at fault, it was protecting it’s home, and it’s mistress! FACT – the dog was taken from its owner and destroyed. Try as they might, the Kennel Club of Great Britain and DEFRA will always be misguided in their attempts to keep Britain ‘dog safe’, because there is no such thing as a ‘safe’ dog breed! All dogs are capable of aggression, no matter what the breed, and wolf content does not lean the animal towards a tendency for bite attacks. I have experience of both large and small breeds, and I can say with hand on heart, ‘give me a LARGE breed, ANYDAY!’ A dog is no less of a threat to man simply because it is no higher than my ankle! My ex boss had 9 Chihuahuas, which she insisted on bringing to work with her, and I STILL have scars on my hands from where they bit me! I have had chunks torn from my jeans by my ex boyfriend’s Jack Russell, just for trying to get through the garden gate! Okay, so maybe they were both being territorial. But when you consider that another ex of mine had a Doberman Pinscher that could hold a balloon in her mouth without bursting it; or that I have also fed a Rottweiller a pork treat from my lips to hers on the ONLY occasion I EVER met her, and I think you get my point! |
Hi Massimo, Paval, Paul and all,
Thanks for the information, Paul. Hopefully we should get some serious mailing going on! Do you guys think it would be a good idea to set up a page where people who have emailed the Kennel Club can register their name? That way we can have an idea of just how many people have contacted the Kennel Club? It might come in handy in any court case that might arise, as it will show just how much support, (or lack of it – God forbid), that these breeds have. It’s probably best to keep it polite too, as any offensiveness will only make matters worse for us. You can still put across your anger to them in a constructive, inoffensive manner. After all, we don’t want to lower ourselves to their level, do we guys? I think it is really important that we spread the word about what is happening in the UK and that we need as many owners and breeders in Europe to come forward and mail the Kennel Club in support of our fight to get these breeds recognised. I also know that this forum is mainly for the Czech, but please, please, please support the Saarloos Wolfhund too! Both breeds deserve to be accepted onto the UK register, and I ask that people show their support for both Czech and Saarloos. I think we really need to present a united front in fighting for the UK registration of these breeds, so maybe we could start an online petition too? This would show the authorities that we are sensible and serious about our quest, and again it would give us an indication of the support we are getting. So, is the petition a good idea, and where shall we put it? Would it be better to put it on your Website, Paul? Once we know where to sign, we can start helping you, Paul. |
Hi All,
I am in Spain for work at the moment but next sunday there will be the Czech Wolfdog Club meeting in Italy (Serramazzoni); probably one of the biggest Wolfdog meeting there can be (considering the amount of Italian owners). I was thinking (having enough time) of preparing a leaflet explaining breefly the problem and inviting everybody to send protesting emails. What do you think?? Again, I think I am more dangerous than my Wolfdog, weaker but more dangerous!! Massimo |
Hi Mosi, Massimo, Paval, etc.
This is absolutely brilliant! What we really need to do now is make people aware of what is going on and really get behind the petition. I think the leaflet ideas are great, and should aid the cause tenfold! If it is possible to mention in the leaflets the petition that Mosi has started we can get them to sign it too. The more people we can make aware of the situation with these breeds the stronger our case will be against DEFRA and the Kennel Club. I have already started sending out emails to get people to sign the petition. May I apologise to anyone who has already signed if they get an email off me. Shout it from the rooftops, guys! Let’s try and get thousands of signatures, not just hundreds! Sorry, I’m a bit excitable at the moment… So come on people, get mailing, get signing, unite and spread the word! The UK has the right to the Czechoslovakian wolfdog, (and the Saarloos) and we are not going to give up the breed without a fight! DEFRA AND THE KC NEED TO BE SHOWN THAT WE, THE EUROPEANWOLFDOG LOVERS, WILL NOT TAKE THIS LYING DOWN! We are with you, Paul, and we fight beside you! |
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If we have two dogs with 30% of wolf blood and we make "close" breding (we do not add any other "new" blood) so even after 10000 years of breeding we will have a breed with 30% of wolfblood.. ;) Because the content of the wolfblood by puppies will be: [30% (from the mother) + 30% (from the father)]/2 |
It is not quite that simple with genetics: After many generations of breeding within a closed population you can't say that these dogs still have 30 % wolf blood. Otherwise all dogs would still be simply wolfs - but they are not - and the wolf has evolved into a dog. The same process is happening with our wolf dogs. Even with the first hybrid generations within a same litter there can be pups almost wolfs and another ones almost dogs. It depends on what genes they have inherited. In later generations all pups will begin to be all similar to each other and that's when they are no hybrids any more. And because of our selective breeding they are getting more and more dogs. You can see this in both FCI Wolf dog breeds CsV and Saarloos. These dogs are, if pure bred, typical Saarloos or typical CsVs - not some crosses between Wolf and dog.
Minna |
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If we will use your way to count the wolfsblood than Saarloos can be compared with German Shepherd Dogs (both breeds have almost the same "age" 8) ). And also a CzW is not a wolfdog anymore....anyway not most of them. :) And if I should prepare a list with breed which are more "wolfish" (shy/aggresive/dominant) than CzW the list will include some very famous "domestic" breeds too... ;) |
Hi All,
Something Margo said has been really bugging me for the past few hours and it’s starting to drive me crazy! Maybe I AM crazy, but I think we should be looking at trying to get the scientific name of the Czech and Saarloos breeds updated by the FCI. (I’m sorry, but the information I have used to illustrate my point is geared towards the Saarloos, though only because I couldn’t find the details for the Czechoslovakian so easily. The theory should pertain to both breeds though.) At present the Saarloos is registered as ‘Canis lupus x familiaris’; I am finding it impossible to discover what the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is registered as, but I reckon it is probably the same. I think this is where the problems stem, because if re-classified as ‘canis lupus familiaris’, both breeds would be simple dogs, and therefore beyond the interference of Kennel Club and DEFRA. Ergo, they would not need a licence. Sounds simple; probably nigh on impossible; but do you think it would solve some of our problems, Paul? This is what is bugging me… The inception studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde states quite categorically that wolves were used to create the German Shepherd breed! The studbook created by Stephanitz lists entries SZ#41 to SZ#76 showing that four pure wolves were used in the original pedigree for the German Shepherd dog! I quote ‘Mores Plieningen SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line’ As Margo states, little time passed between the creation of the German Shepherd and Saarloos breeds, just THREE decades in fact. From the information that I have been able to find it would seem probable that, like the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breeds are now, the German Shepherd would have begun life scientifically classified as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ (wolf/dog cross), NOT ‘canis lupus familiaris (dog)’! The breed would HAVE to have been named so because as I have already stated, the GS was the result of selective breeding between wolf AND canine! So if we accept the truth – then the GS started life as a wolf-cross, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT to the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos! The date I found for the foundation of the German Shepherd breed is 1899, and the United Kingdom Kennel Club accepted the breed in 1919, a mere 20 years later... Amendments were made to the standard of the German Shepherd on 28th July 1901 and 17th September 1909, and the UKKC accepted the breed before the next amendments took place in 1930. Now, this is VERY significant, for it PROVES without a shadow of doubt that SOMEWHERE from 1899 to 1919 the German Shepherd ‘evolved’! The UK KC changed it’s consideration of the breed from that of a ‘wolf cross’ – canis lupus x familiaris to that of a dog - canis lupus familiaris. From 1919 the GS was accepted as just a dog! Surely then, this MUST set a precedent that the UK Kennel Club considers any wolf/dog breed to be a plain and simple dog after a period of 20 years? The German Shepherd standard could legally be amended because no further wolf DNA had been added for two decades. Dogs mature and breed far quicker than humans, and the canine authorities of the day must have realised that after 20 years of pure GS breeding, the DNA would have evolved enough for it to be recognisable as that of the German Shepherd breed. Now, consider the Saarloos wolfdog which has been labelled as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ since it’s inception in the 1930’s. This breed was last injected with wolf DNA in the 1960s, which means it has been classified as a wolf-cross for TWICE the length of time that the German Shepherd was! Is this not an injustice? Even if we say that the MINIMUM time that can pass for a wolfdog to become a dog is 20 years the reclassification of the Saarloos breed to ‘canis lupus familiaris’ is TWO DECADES overdue! And the Czechoslovakian wolfdog last had wolf blood added in 1983 - 21 years ago! Surely this means that the DNA of the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breed must now be that of pure dog breeds, and that they need to be reclassified just as the German Shepherd was? Given this information, the Kennel Club and DEFRA have no right to place these breeds under the dangerous animal licence… And, maybe THIS is the angle we need to use? |
The GSD as I recall reading was set at somewhere about 8% wolf, the originator of the breed calling for breeders not to add any more wolf blood to the breed as he felt he had found the perfect balance. But keep in mind the GSD clubs now deny any wolf heritage in their dogs at all, and all publications after 1923 I believe have been revised to read wolf parentage as unknown , instead of as originally stated. So in other words, they have rewritten to eliminate any indication that that they were developed with wolf blood period.
Based on the GSD you would have an argument to fight the UKC, but without original documents dating back before 1923, or the original german stud books, you may find you lack any solid evidence. In the 1990's scientists reclassified wolves and dogs concluding that they are in fact the same species, therefore there is no such thing as a wolf hybrid(as applied to dogs)and all dogs are essentially domesticated wolves. So how many generations away from the wolf is required for domestication? This is the question you need to pose to the UKC. In their(UKC) infinite wisdom they chose to state that any wolf heritage in a breed would eliminate it from being accepted, since it has been proven that all domesticated dogs are descended from wolves, will they remove all breeds from the kennel club? I read the petition, it is a rant, it will solve nothing, you have to fight on the basis of policy and where that policy is in err...you need to have a legitimate argument and provide evidence and proof that they are in error. Respectfully, Stands Alone (Fighting the AKC as well :cry: ) |
Hi Stands Alone,
Thanks for your input it made very interesting reading. It just goes to show just how much stigma is attached to ‘wolf-blood’ inclusion! I had no idea that GSD society now refutes the inclusion of wolf stock during the inception of their breed. A little silly really, when you consider how easy it is to find the breed’s history on the net; AND that loads of people already KNOW that heavy wolf content was used in its creation! The very fact that I have been able to find detailed information online shows that their attempts to ‘bastardise’ this breed have failed, though how long that information will stay available remains to be seen. The ‘wolf heritage’ ban is ridiculous, as, as you state, it would mean the removal of ALL dog breeds from the UKC register. If this FACT is so blatantly obvious to us mere ‘mortals’, then why cannot the likes of DEFRA and the Kennel Club grasp the concept? Where do think dogs originate –from Camels?! Furthermore, I feel that our troubles, and argument, lie more so with DEFRA than the KC. The KC were quite happy to accept Paul’s dogs onto the register UNTIL they were contacted by DEFRA and instructed to remove them. There are those at the KC who are sympathetic to our cause, and feel that the breed is being persecuted for no good reason. It is my impression that we may well convince the Kennel Club, but DEFRA is a whole different ballgame. Dealing with our Government is NEVER easy, and all the red tape and burocracy that this case could attract may well hold back any break through for years. Not least to mention that if someone in this country’s hierarchy truly dislikes the idea of wolf dogs in the UK, we will probably never get the breed accepted…! |
UK Wolfdogs
Hi All,
I was just wondering if anyone knows any updated information on the current state of affairs with the wolfdog situation and DEFRA/KC in the UK? I have emailed Paul a few times in the past couple of months, but have not had a response back. I know he is busy lately, but it is most unlike him not to come back after all this time... Does anyone know what's happening? Regards Gaulirmorn |
Hello Gaulirmorn,
You must have read my mind I was only thinking of emailing Paul and Mandy myself last night because I too have been wondering about the current state of affairs regarding this subject. Please Paul if you are reading please let us know the situation.Bye for now JP. |
hey everyone, I was thinking about this problem today and how there has been much less trouble with GSD and Czech Shephards. I wounder if its becaause they are seen as very useful dogs. At least in Australia GSD are in demand and havent been banned because of the large amount of people who use them. The Czech Shephard has been said to be one of the worlds greatest working dogs and therefore have been excepted. The army uses both these breeds. Also neither of these breeds mentions anything that sounds like wolf in there names so unless someone asked they appear as dogs. People become worried about my dog when they hear she has wolf blood but before that they are happy to let their children play with her. Its sad but I agree that this breed has to be marketed as a dog breed that is also useful. Not as an exotic wolfdog.
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http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/pdf/GSD.pdf Philippe |
Uk wolfdogs
Many of you will know that the Czezhs are currently banned from the UK,well several of us with great interest have joined together to try and overturn this ban.
We need your help where ever you are if you own a Czech,we need letters telling of your experience with them,their temperament,ease of training and anything else that will show them to be a suitable breed. Could any of you who speak several languages please translate this letter to other pages,the replies can be in any native tongue. |
Re: UK WOLFDOGS
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I fully support your initiative and would like to help. I own an 11-year old Czech orphan - Tina and published a story about her under "Stories" in Sept. 2004. It is a really true story: I haven't coloured even a bit the character of my dog and all the described facts are true. However, I'm not sure if it would be of any help since she is not a pedigree dog. Although the vet , breed- specialist confirmed that she seemed to be a Czech of an older type, similar to those from the 80-ies. ( in the gallery under the heading "Old photos"), I don't have any evidence that she's a Czech. If you think my story could help I'll send it to the address indicated. Regards Rona |
Czech,s uk
Thank you for the recent posts on the Czech,s uk banned problem we will be very greatfull for any help possible from any country.
I was pleased to see some responses, we understand it will difficult to changed the opinon of defra but we are not asking for a miricle just to enjoy our dog as you can without people thinking they will be eaten by our dogs. Defra and the public in the uk need to be educated and you have the experience we need. Please keep the emails coming in. Andre |
Re: Czech,s uk
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Rona,
I think this is very true,they always like to make it seem that it is their great idea but we are going to give them a fight to get the Czeck legal in the UK. Paul |
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Something that would be a great help to us is how the percentage wolf is calculated in the Czezhs,is it from following the breedine lines or is some other method used.
Paul |
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Thanks Rona,I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees and related documents stating such figures as 25.4365% how can anyone come up with such a highly accurate figure,it makes no sense to try to get to four decimal places without highly accurate DNA testing which is currently not available.
Paul |
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DNA testing would be a good idea, but as you say, it's unavailable and it could also backfire, if it turned out that the Czechs have wolf's blood both from their wolves' great grandparents AND GSDs. In my opinion, your main line of argument should follow two paths: 1. The Czechs have been mixed only with other Czechs for so many generations now, that they are no more "wolfish" than other dogs. Besides, if the amount of wolf's genes does not make them wild now, why should it in the future if it remains more or less stable. 2. Wolves (in fact - the ancestors of ALL dogs!!!) ARE NOT DANGEROUS animals. They attact only when hungry, just like packs of wild dogs. In wilderness, there are only rare cases of single packs that hunt farm animals, never people. I 've recently read that in Poland roughly 10% of the wolf population is responsible for over 80% of the farmers' damages. Most wolves fear humans and keep away from them. Some people in some big cities seem to be more dangerous than wolves :mrgreen: Why don't you get in touch with wolveparks' authorities (in Woburn, etc.) Maybe they could help you by explaining to DEFRA the true nature of wolves! Fear stems from ignorance! Another idea is to prepare and put on the forum a questionnaire for the Czechs owners asking them about their dogs' behaviour and temperament It'd be easier for people to answer specific questions rather than write compositions on "how great my dog is", and on the other hand - such evidence would be more objective, systematic and 'scientific', thus - more comparable and realible (eg. the survey could include such questions as: how many times has your dog bitten a human or another animal, etc. Does it attack strangers, How does it co-exist with other dogs/animeal , how does it behave when/ if... and give options, etc. ) These are only suggestions, of course :) :) |
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It's my understanding this scan had been published by Ann Drasselhaus (I'm not sure about the spelling of the name...). May be you can find some contact on the Internet using a search engine... Philippe |
Uk's Petition coming of age :3
hey guys,
im really sorry ive had a lot of very very bad problems for a few months, college, family, friends and life. BUT id like to inform you that the petition is doing very very VERY well, ok so we have over 300 signatures so far, ok im going to do a forum trawl today and post it at some friendly ones I visit which should boost the marks up. I hope that we do get to 500 but 400 would probably be just as great. I will then ask you all to email copys of this, and or print it out and mail it to defra and the kennel club! I dont know maybe this will work, but tonight im going to drag my fellow czech lover wyla into my corner so we can make a selection of poster based images. Anyway email it around at will the link is here: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...04169&sign Again a big shout out and thanks, for everyones support, love and kindness, im proud to be a member of such a great site! |
Just to update you,there is a meeting due to take place with DEFRA in the next couple of weeks.
Paul |
ooo fingers crossed all around then ;)
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Hi Paul,
I'm an interested party re:Wolfdogs.I'm in Australia,where there are no Wolfdogs,however we would have the same problems as in the UK.However,if the UK gov't changed their rules Australia probably will too,as we still follow alot of UK &USA rulings,this would have to be tested when some dogs were imported here.I'd love to import but it's very expensive.I hope you are successful in your quest. Simon |
Hi,
several German members tried to send messages and votings to your adress and couldn´t deliver their mail. There must be something wrong. Gr. Ina |
DEFRA LATEST
I have just received the following from DERFRA which does show that we still have a chance if our European friends will help us to get ther point across that these are treated in the same way as any other dog.
perhaps some of you could email DEFRA which I am sure would help our cause. Quote:
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The question begs to be asked: What sort of information is valid proof that a given animal is actually widely accepted to be Canis Familiaris? I suspect saying you love your dog and that it wags its tail when its happy is quite simply not enough.
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Very true but to prove that it lives at home as family pet would.
Paul |
Would sending books that talk about this breed as a pet help? What about showing pictures of dog shows or even information from other countries that except the breed. I have seen some beautiful photo's of pets here. They are some of children with CWD's, aswell as other animals.
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maybe this mail from defra should be translated (any volunteers?) to the czech/slovakian forum so as to ask for help also in countries of csw origin.. just hope defra will pay any attention to it..
..the following is not a proof either, but: canis lupus sees a csw as a prey, just the same as it sees other canis familiaris.. in the zoo in prague, there are dogs allowed as visitors and when we pass by wolves, they come to the fence and try to bite my csw through holes in that fence.. they're so eager for her, a few times they even succeeded when she came too close.. i guess they would kill her and eat her up if they could.. when she was a little puppy, she had been curious about them, but now she's rather afraid.. charlie |
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Maybe a little survey for CWD owners would be better, at least would get more response.... and the data obtained would be more objective and comparable? Another suggestion - the Czechs owners could be asked in their national languages to send proper selections of their pets' photos.... . I suppose Polish CZW lovers would have a lot of fun doing that :D They put great CZW pictures into their forum messages..... Just look at the section "wilczaki i zwierzeta" on the Polish forum- CZW and other animals.... or "do wody hop" :mrgreen: |
DEFRA LATEST
Hi Paul,
did you read the article "Wolfdog (not necessarily a full pedigree) - the best friend of a man" from Rona. You`ll find it at the first page below "Recently added articles". It`s an absolutely wonderful article and you should send it to DEFRA, if Rona allows it. Regards Angelika |
Let me see if I can help sort this out.
Up until a certain point, Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were considered to be normal dogs in the UK. They could be exhibited they could be bred, the UK KC even recognised them IIRC. Then something happened and this was no longer the case. Fair enough now you suddenly find yourself with dogs which are no longer considered dogs. Why? 1) Expert witness (Keeper of wolves in the London zoo IIRC) who testified under oath that any animal with more than 1% nominal wolfblood should be considered to be a hybrid. 2) Re-evaluation of an article in the DWA regulation which states that an animal which can reasonably be confused with a wild animal should be taken for a wild animal. (These quotes are not verbatim as since DEFRA redid their website I can no longer find the regulation in question) Anyhow… That means you cannot keep Wolfdogs in the UK unless you register them etc etc… You are up against a regulatory problem. This is a question of laws, their interpretation and their application. That’s it. Bottom line is that is the only thing that matters. You tried to contact the FCI, but they naturally did not help since it is their policy NOT to interfere with what goes on in member states (This incidentally is common policy for organisations such as the FCI) You talk to DEFRA, exchange e-mails, get into all sorts of convoluted discussions… and suddenly someone from DEFRA gives you an interesting piece of advice namely: Quote:
You won’t get anything from the FCI, they won’t accept photos nor stories, because to be honest those are relatively easy to come up with by unscrupulous people anyhow (you have to remember that DEFRA has to cover their back too, they have to respond to some minister or other) Ok so where does that leave us? You have an opportunity to provide DEFRA with what they have asked for, and they have actually asked for documents, because that is the sort of thing which will stand up in court if needed. Which documents would be acceptable? · Pet passports. Above all others, pet passports would be the thing to provide them because they are specific for dogs (note, this was not the case for the old yellow vaccination cards) and what is more interesting they are actually delivered by different veterinary authorities, so getting a set of pet passports of wolfdogs (I checked the breed name is in there) from say Czech Republic, Slovakia (countries of origin), Italy, Germany, France, Poland (big countries in continental Europe, all of which incidentally have a significant number of wolfdogs in them). And any other passports you can get a hold of. This will give you international recognition of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs by veterinary authorities AS DOMESTIC DOGS, ie: Canis familiaris · Export pedigrees (yes export pedigrees, not national pedigrees) The export pedigree comes in a form which is internationally recognized (and what is more is in several languages, including English) These are delivered jointly by the FCI and especially the national kennel clubs. Again, international recognition of wolfdogs AS DOMESTIC DOGS, ie: Canis familiaris · Other certificates (dog show results, preferably from international shows, training certificates, in particular for working dogs such as rescue or police dogs… this sort of thing) Not nearly as convincing as the previous two sets of documents (as it is not clear who delivers them) but it remains a nice piece of supporting evidence for your case. · If you ever got a positive reply from Nicole Wilde that is something which you might want to join to this too. I suggest you get a set of these documents together, (Don’t make it too long, focus on the passports get a few pedigrees, if you can get some good certificates, preferably in English, that cannot hurt) make a dossier and sent it all to that chap with a cover letter and an explanation. If you like you can even make a statement about wolfdogs and have it be signed by however many people. Get it all together and sent it all together… Don’t expect that lots of people mailing this chap from all over Europe will help you very much, on the contrary he is just likely to ignore an avalanche of e-mails as opposed to one complete dossier. DEFRA will not do your work for you, in particular the work of putting together the information and then interpreting it. You must do that and then present this to DEFRA. They are actually being quite nice in allowing you to still present data so far after the September 20th deadline. Anyhow that’s my take on this. I hope this will solve this issue (though it is possible that you might have tried this already) I might as well admit I have a vested interest in getting all this sorted out so we can go back to discussing wolfdogs on the forum rather than English laws. Anyhow I hope all of this helps, and if you have already tried it in the past, then excuse my somewhat detailed explanation of things you already did, and then think of something else which could work. |
I totally agree with Dharkwolf, showing the pet passports and pedigrees is certainly much better, than to send millions of pictures, lovely tales and e-mails from all over the world.
There is no better proof, that CWD is normal breed as any other, than official documents issued by vets, studbooks or at the best, FCI. Because, I can have a pure wolf at home, and I can write nice stories about it, I can as well take hundreds of nice pictures of it and ask my friends to send e-mails about how my wolf is nice pet. But that won´t make a CWD from him, it still will be wolf. On the contrary, I could never get export pedigree for this wolf of mine, I could probably not get a pet passport for him (unless I´d convince some veteriarian my wolf was for example malamute 8) ) and of course, I could not show any dog show results. I wish you good luck in UK and I hope, we will soon be able to speak here about something else, than situation with DEFRA.. Mirka |
Re: DEFRA LATEST
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But I fully agree with Mirka and Dharkwolf - it's not very wise or practial to apeal to bureaucrats' emotions. :) When writing my message I was rather thinking of time constraints - it's easier to send a photo than write a letter, have it translated, etc.... |
pet passports are titled "passport for small animals" so they're not dog-specific (any cat, fox, wolf can get it as well).. although there are lines like "species:" and "breed:", as long as an F1 cross can get a dog show result (cac - ave lupo mutara), it can also get a pet passport with "species: dog; breed: csw".. but shhh.. ;o)
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The EU-passport was created for the new EU travelscheme, that mentions cats, dogs and ferrets. It is called pet-passport in Germany. It is not for wolves and other non-pets.
Ina |
Ina is absolutely correct, the reason why pet passports are a good example to give to DEFRA is because they are defined by Commission Decision 2003/803/EC and it is clearly stated that they are to be called "Pet passport" and yet "apply only to pet animals of the species dogs, cats and ferrets." (Incidentally there is your legal basis for saying that Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are legally of the "dog" ie Canis familiaris species.) That is the sort of thing you need to point out in the cover letter.
I apologize to all those who are not interested for the legal jargon (though some might find interesting exactly how a pet passport is supposed to look like). Anyhow... cheers. Dhark |
okie dokie I also have something to show, a friend of my wrote a very very well worded email about a week or two ago, the original:
Mr. Adams, I am contacting you at the suggestion of the Defra website. I have been studying the keeping of wild animals as pets and have found the legislation on the subject somewhat confusing, particularly where a certain breed of dog is concerned. The breed in question is called the Ceskoslovensky Vlcak, or Czechoslovakian Wolf Dog. This breed was founded in 1955 by crossing German Shepard Dogs to Carpathian Wolves. The final out cross of the breed to a Wolf was made in 1983. Would this breed, which has not seen new wolf blood in 22 years still considered a Wolf-Hybrid, or would you class it as a domestic dog? Thanks, Kelly Reply!: Dear Mrs Kelly Thank you for your e-mail I apologise for the delay in replying. The Dangerous Wild Animals Act regulates the keeping of certain kinds of dangerous wild animals. The Act aims to ensure that where private individuals keep dangerous wild animals they do so in circumstances which create no risk to the public and safeguard the welfare of the animals. It does not prohibit keeping of such animals entirely but requires such keeping to be licensed. In answer to your query about the Czechoslovakian Wolf Dog, all species of the family Canidae are covered by the Act unless they are specifically excepted such as Canis familiaris, the domestic dog. In Defra's opinion, any generation of wolf-dog "hybrid" with wolf in its ancestry falls within Canidae but cannot be classified as Canis familiaris, the domestic dog, and therefore continues to be covered by the Act. Licensing and enforcement relating to this Act is a matter for the relevant local authority, so each local authority is able to decide if it wishes to consider animals as domestic dogs if perhaps they are many generations removed from the wild species and essentially indistinguishable from a domestic dog. Please note that the Act refers to "species" rather than "breeds", so it is the species which should be considered in interpreting the Act. If you are keeping wolf-dog hybrids of any generation then I recommend you contact your local authority to see whether it considers that the animals concerned should be licensed. Otherwise you could leave yourself open to possible commission of an offence. You may be interested to know that we have been reviewing the Act and a consultation paper proposing various amendments to the Act was published earlier this year (a copy can be found at http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/co...-two/index.htm). This included amendments to species listed on the Act's Schedule, developed with advice from a panel of experts. However, the consultation proposals did not put forward any plans to change the Schedule in respect of wolf hybrids. The consultation period has now closed and we are underway on developing advice to Ministers on the next steps. However, you are welcome to submit information on wolf-dog hybrids if you would like it to be taken into account. Any help? Kelly also wants to help :) shes asking to rally information and support, "KitsufoxINC: In fact, if you want to lobby them for iinformation for me to send in my reply, I'm happy to help support a responibly created wolf-blooded dog breed and help to ensure that they're never unfairly prosecuted with the leagle system." her email is [email protected] |
legislation of CSV in UK
Hello,
I live in France and I would like to know if Wolfdog are awlowed in the UK? If yes, what are the condition and reglementation for the owner of a Wolfdog? If any are they many CSV in UK? Thanks |
Hello,
If you followed this forum, than you can notice, that, as far as I know, the CW is not allowed in the UK, because of the rules of the DEFRA, till now. Maybe, you can look back in this forum and you will get a lot of information about that. greetings, Letty |
Actually technically wolfdogs are allowed in the UK, however they fall under the Dangerous and Wild animals act...
That means that they have to spend their lives in a cages, are never allowed to go out and are not allowed to breed. Furthermore in order to even consider having one you will have to demonstrate your ability to handle wild animals so as to get the right permits, as well as having the adequate facilities available for having such animals. It's ridiculous, but those are the rules. Apparently things are slightliy different from burough to burough, but honestly who would want to keep a wolfdog in such a way? |
Actually there are some signs that things may change. I got a mail from a friend in GB that knows the kennel club quite well. DEFRA has contacted the Kennel Club for a statement for the breed. It seems that some people in the Kennel Club and not DEFRA are against registration because they consider them as to difficult for GB !?! I wrote a statement that nobody in Europe understands this point of view, that there hasn´t been a wolf crossed in for over 20 years and that there are a lot of family dogs and even rescue dogs in this breed. My statement has gone to the person looking for informations about the breed in the Kennel club, how things will end up - I don´t know. At least there has been some movement.
Regards Ina |
Hi :D
That's very interesting...I live in the UK and I'm looking forward to the day that the restrictions are lifted... Hopefully if anyone has any more news they will post it :wink: I'm trying to keep updated on this situation. |
First of all welcome Samatha! It's always good to see a fly hopping off the wall and coming in to join us.
Secondly - people have written to DEFRA in the past (most notably Paul from the Masai Rottveiler Rescue) and they have certainly gotten answers to their comments. Some of the things which DEFRA has said in their letters: - The ban in the UK is linked to a large extent to the Swedish and Norwegian ban. - Pet passports are not considered proof that a CSW is not a wolf (personally I would challenge that but lets drop it for now) - The wolfblood content of the CSW is a problem. There is the opinion of an expert (from the London Zoo) that any animal with more than 1% wolfblood is likely to be dangerous - contrast that to the roughly 7% of German Shepherds... - There was a public consultaion on this issue in 2004 - no wolfdog owners responded during this time therefore DEFRA concluded that there was no issue here - basically we missed the right time to protest. There is a lot more information, somewhere I even have the name of the chap who deals with this issue - Let me know if you are interested and I will see if it can be dug up. Also you may be interested in contacting masairotts who was very active in this area earlier in the year. Good luck with anything else which you may like to do. If you really are interested in getting things off the ground, let me know. J. |
Ah yes, one more thing:
Paul if you are around and reading this let us know if you've gotten any farther with DEFRA, as you can see we are still very interested in this topic which concerns us all to a small or large extent. (personally I would love to be able to visit the UK with my dogs, and who knows maybe even to move over there one day) |
I suppose British CzW owners may think you are from DEFRA and are trying to spot them.... :wink: :cheesy:
But seriously speaking: would you put at risk your best friend's life or face a threat that for no reason he'd have to spend the rest of his life in a cage? No wonder the owners prefer to keep quiet.... I think only people who don't own CzWs yet, but would like to buy one could safely participate in the campaign.... But then, 1. how many such people might there be in the UK where the breed is practically unknown? 2. How may of those who are interested in the breed use the Internet? 3. How many of those who know the breed, want to buy a CzW and use the Internet know about the wolfdog webpage....? I used to live in the UK and personally think Untonagens fit much better the British administration system than CzWs :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: |
wolfdogs and defra
hi everyone its been long time, there are at present 7 wolfdogs in u.k. and i have just returned from spain to uk with two of my czech wolfdogs on pet passports, i have been fighting for three years with defra and very soon hope to met a representitive to talk about the czech wolfdogs, i know it is frustrating but i ask everyone please do not write to defra regarding the wolfdogs, facts,,,,,,,,, the czech wolfdog is not band in the u.k, the czech wolfdog in the uk is classified by defra as A DANGEROUS WILD ANIMAL you need a DWA lience to own one. but before you all even think of getting a wolfdog and lience let me explain with a lience the dog must be keot in a secure pen, it can not be taken into a public place, you must have special cadge made to ministry spec just to transport the dog to a vets. the dog is no more than a zoo animal, do you want to keep your dog like this ........NO so please do not bring in any to the uk, defra are not educated with the czech wolfdogs so what they dont know they fear, they are compairing the czechs to timberwolf F1 crosses in USA i am fighting and i will get there but i need time, i did get my pups registered with the kennel club then they where removed i have refused to return my registration papers to the kennel club and i have refused to comply to getting a DWA Lience for my dogs, i have been warned that i could get jailed, so how far are you prepared to go to own a czech wolfdog in uk...... i will once again have a czech at crufts to the embarasment of the uk kennel club . i will be speaking to the kennel club soon,, defra have never seen a czech wolfdog and they claim they can take blood tests from my dogs to tell wolf content, this is how ignorant they are, the uk is the only place i know of that does not agree that the dog is a direct desendant of the wolf. so you can only imagine how hard it will be even talking to these people,, my dogs travel free in uk they go everywhere as do all there brothers ans sisters, we do not comply to the ministery and will not, i will now keep the site posted and one piece of good news there is one person in the kennel club a high member who will give us suport with the czech wolfdogs,, i will be at crufts utility day, IF I CAN GET PAST THE DOOR ////////// BEST REGARDS PAUL
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Well done Paul :) We will all have you to thank when the day finally comes that defra pull their heads out of their arses...I can't even believe they base such stringent regulations yet never have studied or even met one in the flesh so to speak.
Good luck and thanks for keeping us posted...Look forward to hearing from you here again soon, hopefully with good news... :) |
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Paul, we keep our fingers crossed!!! Please, keep us informed on the developments. Good luck :thumbs
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Importation of a Czech wolfdog to the UK is OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have thoroughly enquired about the importation of a Czech wolfdog and have spoken in person to DEFRA and to the vet in charge of importation at DEFRA and have been told that a Czech wolfdog IS NOT A DANGEROUS DOG as is NOT on the dangerous dog list. You do not need a dangerous dog liscense and you can keep it as any other domestic pet.
The only trouble you have is that the UK, being as island without rabies has a strict 6 month rabies vacination passport scheme for which there are no loopholes. This means that any puppy purchased must either do 6 months quarantine or stay in it's country of birth for 6 months and undergo the 6 months of rabies and blood tests to aquire entry to the UK. If you bring over a dog well over 6 months old (since it will take 6 months of vacinations and blood tests before being allowed into the UK) you will be aquiring a very unsocialised, untrained dog who will NOT recognise you as the alpha. The dog may never truely respect you or bond with you for life, as it's temperament makes it more wolf than dog. It is 'however' a realistic and hopeful option for a breeder to import such dogs to breed from and you can take a pup off that litter IN THE UK, but any impulsive importation of a small puppy with no passport will result in a quarantined dog, resulting in an unbalanced dog, as they have so much wolf instinct in them, which makes them vary warey to those they do not know and also they will not see you as the boss when you finally take them home. Believe you me, I have gone through all the channels finding out about this and DEFRA assured me that a Czech is so far removed from the original hybrid that is is now classed as a domestic dog NOT a hybrid. The Kennel Club told me that in order for this breed to be recognised thoroughly in the UK, more numbers need to be imported and a proper breeding programme must start. There must be a regulated breed standard, an organisation and an aim for the breed. Once this has been approved by the Kennel Club, then the Czech will be recognised over here. SO COME ON all you wolfdog breeders, let's get some quality dogs over from the top breeders, such as Passo del Lupo and get a good UK line going- also it is VITAL that such special dogs are sold for a high price to the correct people who love the breed and want to improve and protect it, not just look 'tough' with a wolf on their arm. It is a very sensitive dog and once abandoned, may never truely bond with another. Love Anneka Svenska xxxxx |
Importation of a Czech wolfdog to the UK is OK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Paula |
Just to echo what Nebulosa / Paula said...
It isn't about if the Czech wolfdog is on the dangerous dogs list or not, your right it isn't...But the problem is that that yes the CWD is not a hybrid, you've got that right BUT it is a wolfdog of wolf ancestry, with some wolf content. Some so called expert that DEFRA is in conjunction with deems that a any dog with even just 1% or more wolf content will need a dangerous wild animal license.... The problems are with that are what Paul already outlined...The DWA licence requirement does not mean that the CWD is illegal here in the UK but it does mean you legally require this license to own one and part of fulfilling the regulations set by that license you have to satisfy certain criteria, again which paul describes in his message...All in all it means that the CWD can't be kept as an ordinary pet dog...leading to not such a happy, natural life here in the UK. |
As i understand the DETR not DEFRA report into the keeping of wolf hybrids it is up to each individual borough council to decide for themselves whether THEY see the CSV as a domestic dog or as "any other canid species". This means you need permission from hundereds of councils just to go for a drive to Cornwall! Very interested in what Anneka said though. Lets hear more about this!
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Oh yeah, I'll just add : Nice one Paul! They just let you through? Coz the passport said "Dog"? That's what I thought would happen if anyone ever tried it. I'm so happyit's been done! Thankyou. The messages I've read today have totally changed the way I'm thinking about the next 14 years of my life! Your not staying anywhere near North Wales are you? That would be TOO good.
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Anneka can we have this assurance that CSVs dont require a licence VERIFIED or CONFIRMED somehow? It's just that our unelected representatives sometimes give conflicting answers to the same question depending on which individual you ask! :wink:
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Hiya,
Anneka here again. I am on one to one speaking terms with a DEFRA rep and also their importantion vet and they have told me that a Czech wolfdog is NOT considered a hybrid, so it seems as though there has been a lot of confusion going on here. They asked me how far back the wolf original breeding went and I took them online to the wolfdog page which explains the original ancestry and breeding line of the German Shep with the native European wolf. The DEFRA rep asked me to wait one moment and discussed this with the head vet. She then came back on the phone and told me that the Czech would not need a dangerous dog liscence and I could easily import one in if I should wish to do so and they would not impose any 'wolf' liscence or regulations on me. I am serious about getting some over and have met some of these dogs already in person. I find them extremely friendly and human loving dogs with no wariness to strangers. They were licking me all over my face. I have just heard that male ones are a bit of a handfull when they are growing up due to being more destructive. They do not have the baby/child killing 'trigger' mechanism in their brain that true F1 and F2 american wolf hybrids have, as they have had so much german shep put back into them and bred down that they look wolf, but act more German Shep. Perhaps we should think about addressing the breed name, as if simply putting 'wolf' in the name is causing confusion to ill-informed individuals then pehaps it should be changed to Czech Shepherd. I have met inuits far more warey than Czechs. They are highly intelligent and extremely responsive to training due to the Greman Shep content. I would feel it a shame to change the name though, as we should not be scared to defend this dog and by changing the name is kind of doing a cowardly 'cover-up' which isn't needed. I am curious to whom some of the dog people are all talking to at DEFRA about this dog not being allowed in, as I have now spoken to over 6 of them and they were almost laughing about this down the phone. They are pretty relaxed about this. I imported a dog from Canada last year and am very experienced with the DEFRA passport regulations. As long as the dog is happy and well socialised in the other country, then it should be a much better option than quarantine. I think we should just start getting them over. Relax, declare them for what they are, which is not a hybrid, but a dog which has been bred from a high content of German Shep for over 40 years now. I would class a wolf hybrid as an F1 - F10. DEFRA said that after 40 years of breeding they would not even come close to being considered a wolf. They told me that after reading all about the breeding of this dog, that even a 1% would not even stop it's importation. Love Anneka (Let's try and help this breed as it's a stunning example of a healthy natural looking dog and I'd love to see it's quality improved. They are the best example of a wolfy dog I've seen so far. I've had enough of pekinese and ill-bred unhealthy dogs. They are fit, natural, primitive looking creatures. Lets get them over and use reputable UK breeders and stock from top EU breeders to combat any health problems within the breeding such as hip displasia from bad German Shepherd lines :mrgreen: ) |
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F1 at F10, wen I see the CzW is from F3-F4(you can see this in the database of the site), 1% is problem per DEFRA in law (only paper) and probably they acepted animais whit more percentage whitout problems, but CzWs not have only 1% Wolfblood, they has normaly 19% at 30% Wolfblood, I belive that at 5% pass whitout problems, because is much little percentage (is not "much" significant), but 21% or 27% is one big diference, and is the most comom percentage in the CzWs. this is write by DEFRAs law, look: "The conclusion of his report was that even an animal with a wolf genetic representation of less than 1% would not be Canis familiaris, since it would still have a large number (over 100) of wolf genes present. (Bruford, 1997)." 5% at 40% is considered "low content", I belive that THIS is the problem. Wen you arrive whit the dog, the valid is that is write in the paper (DREFRA law), not that one or other ( just veterinarians) say. :roll: Greetings Paula |
The wolf content is just a mathematical formula. The breed won´t come under a percentage of 30% in 200 years as long as it is kept pure bred. If you cross two individuals with 30% each the ofspring will have 30% too from the mathematical point of view. Looking from that point absolutely every dog has 100% wolfblood since thousands of years.
Ina |
Hi Anneka, I'm very much interested in the possibility of transporting a CSV to UK since somebody I know wants to go to the UK for a couple of years and the only thing that has worried him so far was the fear of not being able to take his Czech wolfdog friend with him. The dog is a few years old and registered in Poland so there wouldn't be any problem of quarrantine or registration, especially that the owner wants to spend in the UK only some time.
Still, I think he would prefer to write to DEFRA and get some kind of written statement or opinion from them, just to be on a safe side when crossing the border. I cannot send you a private message, but would you please contact me and let me know who should my friend contact in London? This info would be very valuable for him. Regards Rona |
Anneka
Anneka I really would ask for a second opinion if I were you...Paul has had all the dealings with defra and it is really odd that they would give you such different feedback...defra do see a problem with anything more than quite literally 1% wolf blood. Of course they most certainly know that the Czech Wolfdog is not a hybrid but it still does contain more than 1% content as far as they are concerned.
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Csv ownership in UK
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Csv ownership in UK
In reference to : "I'd like to say to start off with, that the breed's name is Czechoslovakian Wolfdog NOT Czech Wolfdog. I'd be pretty pissed off if i was Slovakian and people kept leaving me out of the name of my national breed. If you cant be bothered typing Czechoslovakian can you just call them CSV?"
I don't think you are entirely refering to me? but yes I am guilty of writting Czech Wolfdog...Sorry! But then in this sentense I see you are happy to shorten Czechoslovakian to Czech...lol :wink "I believe Vlcak is pronounced Ulchack but i need to ring up someone in Czech sometime and get them to say it to me a few times. Also, there is already a breed called Czech Shepherd" : Anyway I agree with you in your response to the earlier post regarding possibly changing the breed name for in the UK, the breed name should be kept as it is of course. |
Yes I was not only referring to you but also the many different sets of initials used for the CSV some dont include an S. I would rather use the Czech Vlcak than the Slovakian Vlcaika (?) because it has less letters and is easier for me to remember how to spell it. No other reason.
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to Anneka regarding defra and wolfdogs in uk
hi, Anneka i will go through your mail bit by bit, you say there is some confusion regarding the czechs in u.k, the only confusion is that of defra, they are confused because they are completely ignorant to this breed, and use script taken from usa website to print in government papers as a guild to keeping czech wolfdogs, i phoned defra head quarters on friday and asked to speak to someone regarding the dangerous wild animal act, do you know what they said,,, SORRY I DONT KNOW ANYONE YOU CAN TALK TO GIVE ME YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL FIND OUT FOR YOU, THIS IS DEFRA,,,,,,,,,,i got letter today..
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to Anneka
the breed name is the czechoslovakian wolfdog and to change its name is ridiculous and infact i find it insulting to my friends in europe, do you really think the name should be changed to suit the u.k, problem, the u.k is still living in the dark ages compaired to europe were wolfdogs are concerned, the name is good ,and will remain as it is,, paul
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to Anneka
hi, i can put your curiosity at ease, i speak to defra most days, fighting for my dogs, you say they laugh at you, let me tell you a few facts as it seems you have been away for a few years, 1 there are enough czech wolfdogs in u.k, 2 the first litter of czechs were bred by me on 14 dec 2003, the mother and pups were reconised and registered by THE UK KENNEL CLUB on 30/1/2004, so the czechs were a registered bred in the u.k in early 2004,,,,,,,,,,,, and had been accepted as a breed of domesticated dog by the uk kennel club, my wife mandy and i took over 3 long years to get this far,, on the 28th april 2004 just a few mths later i recieved a letter from kennel club asking for the return of all registrations for my czechs, the letter stated, they have recieved information from DEFRA that the czechoslovakian wolfdog are classified and require a DANGEROUS WILD ANIMAL LICENSE,, so let there be no confusion on this issue, DEFRA had the czechs removed from the uk kennel club registrations,,, maybe this is what they were laughing at down your phone, so please do not confuse people on this site with loose talk, we need facts only to help us, i can send copy of the letter to anyone who wishes to see it regards paul
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to Anneka
hi, you say lets just bring the dogs into uk, after reading your letter i think you need to learn a lot more about the czech wolfdogs before you even consider owning one, i know from your remarks you dont know many czechs,, its not a problem and we like to try and educate people on the breed, i have bred dogs for over 25yrs, large breds akitas ect as i say there are lots of breeds then you have the CZECHS, they are beautiful but beliefe me you must learn lots and then more,,regards paul
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toAnneka
you have friends at defra, please contact me, your friends may be able to give me info or help, i have lots of support within defra but what we must do is educate people in defra, then the big one, we must try and change the law in uk regarding the breed, my argument is that defra must set a generation gap say all imports must be at least 5 generations from the wolf or f1 f2 f3 crosses, at present the local councils are left to decide weather a license is required, but they only take advise from defra and therefor all czechs need dangerous wild animal license, there is no way round it, if you keep one and they find it, make no mistake they will take your dog and pound it, it then goes to a wolf hybred rescue organisation,,,,,, i am not trying to get at you but please be very careful and think before writting in mail asking people to bring czechs into uk, remember a czech with a license is condemed to live in a cadge for life same as animal in zoo,,,,,,i have some rspca officers who support the wolfdogs as well, it will be a long haul, but defra had my czechs removed from the k.club, on 28th april 2004 i live in kent area, where do you live? it may be possible for you to visit my czechs
i am trying to set up show for april or may for czech fans but need to be very careful, i want to let people have contact with the dogs as i want to share my wolfdogs with thoose who at present can not own one, regards paul |
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But about the correct name, I find that is lost time debat about this in this forum, that have the correct name of the breed writing in the top of the page in any lenguajes ( english, polski, deutsh...) if have laziness to write complet and correct name , is more easy write only CzW or CsV that probably all go understand. Argue on this here, does not go to modify the habits of the people to speech the name of the breed incomplet ( czech wolfdog, slovakian wolfdog etc etc) when they wants to become the colloquy fastest. Paula |
For Paul of Pacino
Thanks for all your help and advice. I now know 200% more than I did before about DEFRA etc. The woman at DEFRA I spoke to before *excuse the expression* was talking out of her bottom. I have sent you a private email. Can you urgently respond. Anneka :cheesy:
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Hello everybody,
I've read the whole lot of this topic. Is there any news yet about DEFRA? Is almost 2 years now and there is still no definitive awnser. Is there any change you can win this with taking this whole matter to a judge (trail)? With help offcourse from breeders and clubs over all countries in Europe. Is it so that de UK law (not DEFRA) says all dogs with more than 1% wolfblood are dangerous wild life? If thats the case, than you will lose, but if it's just DEFRAlaw, you maybe be able to win this at trail. Idea? greetings from Holland, Kim Kobesen |
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