The CSV as therapy dog
 

The CSV as comunity service dogs

Hi.

I remember I somewhere, sometime having read of the CSV in comunity service as therapy dogs. I wonder if it happened just in my dreams or not :) If not in my dreams I 'll appreciate more information on the subject.
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Per Olav

Hello Per Olav,
I think, nobody has wolfdog like dog for therapy (canisterapie).

No - there are already some.... :D

Two dogs from our kennel work already with children. Alistair Wolf z Peronowki works at the moment in such group. So far she had some lessons with children. She is not "typical" therapy dog because her task is to show healty or less handicapped children that "wolves" are not bad animals.... ;)

But Ela takes at the moment part in a proffesional training for people which will work in canisterapie with their dogs. Amber Wolf z Peronowki makes such training for a longer time already.... Now Ela has also new female which is trained for this work from the first weeks of her life (since she left the breeder's home and moved to Ela)....

Sure CzW are no the best breed for such work (for example because of their look ;) ) and only few of them fit for it (when we take into consideration their character) but we will see how it develops... Anyway we keep fingers for them... :mrgreen:

My dogs Chezka (Berta z vlei chaloupky) and (Crying wolf) Karlik are not official certificated therapy dogs, but we use them very often in groups with difficult young people. They make for example contact with "the "un reachenable" ones. They give also calming signals in the group, they want to be hugged by very shy aso. A lot of these young people did tell these dogs are the most importent for them in world :D And it is amazing to see on how many mobilephones their picture is in the backround :mrgreen:

We also have experience with autistic kids. And it is amazing to see how woldogs (saarloos and CsW) behave with these kids and make contact with them.
I think a lot of people don't realise how sensitive wolfdogs are!

Oebie Kadir van de Ursidae-Stee does the same in Holland as Alistair Wolf z Peronowki :D She was several times on schools to show "wolves" are not bad animals :wink:

So, sorry about my bad meaning. Congratulations, you are "first svallow". :o)

That's information of great interest. I wonder if it's possible to have a summary/information of the training/work of the csv as canisterapie dogs and if there are photos taken showing this.

Regards
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Per Olav

The CSV as therapy dog
 

My wolfdogs aren`t therapy dogs, but sometimes I take them to school (as I`m working as a teacher for children up to ten years). So both of them, the children and the dogs, are socialized to each other and get friends. It is also a way for me to bring a little "nature" into the classroom because there are some children that are even afraid of birds, beatles, dirt... although we live in the country.
Annemarie

The CSV as therapy dog
 

Certainly, they are afraid of beetles, may be also of the Beatles!

Hello!
As Margo said I work with my Wolfdogs and with childrean.
I start to work, in fact I'm still educating myself.
Months ago I contacted with people trainig dogs and other people to know more about dogotheraphy.
Now I'm finishing a year-long study to be an instructor of this kind of theraphy and I'm still learning.

My dog AMBER passed internal exams and worked as a theraphy dog. He has perfect patient, childrean can do eveything with him, if he feel pain he only cry.

Here are Amber's fotos
http://www.dogoterapia.org/strona/po...otogaleria.htm

But it was too little for me. I wanted to have a dog trained from the begining.
In november I took a female BETI and I train her for theraphy dog. She already had 3 tests and passed well, we are waiting for an external exam. From the beginning I prepare her to this work.
BETI is a very calm Wolfdog, she loves all people and loves to be close, to be touched. She is young but very obiedent.
(sorry my English is geting worst)
Now she is 7 months old and once a week she is working with childrean that need a special theraphy.

Perolav - an article I can write when I will work longer.

http://www.jantarowa.wataha.wolfdog....2006%20010.jpg
http://www.jantarowa.wataha.wolfdog....2006%20015.jpg
http://www.jantarowa.wataha.wolfdog....2006%20020.jpg

more fotos on prive
by
Ela

I love you, love you - do you hear - I love you :)
Thank you so very much - Yes please do write an article.

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Per Olav

This show one much good image of the breed !
It's good for the people that say "CzWs are dangerous and one breed that if cannot trust", or for they that have ban this breed of the country because is one " wolfdog" like that happen in UK.
Dog therapy is not for all dogs.

Congratulations!!

Hi Ela,

What a great pictures!!!!

It is a pitty that I don't understand Polish :( And I hope that some day there is also more information in English language on the site www.dogoterapia.org :D

Best regards,

Mijke

Ooooppps - I see I made a mistake. :shock: Alistair is next Wolfdog with the right character for such work of course but because of lack of freetime we can not work with her....
So I meant here Andariel Wolf z Peronowki and her owner Daniel - they both work with a canistherapists' group from Lodz....

I genuinely admire Ela and her work with sick children but on seeing the photos I had some second thoughts and mixed feelings which I want to share with you.
The pictures are great but should some of them really be published on-line?

I'm afraid that after seeing the photos from the link provided, some stupid people will begin training their dogs to lick the backs, etc. and call themselves and their dogs therapists. If sufficiently irresponsible and unethical, they may even try to make money on this!

It's only my personal view, but I think one should be very cautious with publishing such pictures and select them carefully so they are not instructive, e.g. like the ones in the topic. Not only dogs and their owners are involved here (as in most pictures in the wolfdog gallery) but also helpless children and their sometimes desperate to help them parents.


It's nothing personal, Ela; you know I'm a great fan of Amber and Beti and wish them and you all the best. You're doing a really fantastic and pioneer job and evereybody appreciates it.
However, I belive it is better to be very careful. (even too careful) and anticipate the possible hazards BEFORE anything happens than to be sorry AFTER.

Rona,

I have to disagree with you on this. I think it is very important to show people, that CSW´s can be used even as therapy dogs. There is never enough of good advertisement for the breed.
Also, you see that Ela mentioned, that:

It is clear that canistherapy (or dogotherapy) cannot be done just by anyone. You have to contact people, train the dog and train yourself, pass tests etc.
Of course, anything can be misused by bad people. But that does not mean that Ela should sit at home. If we would think like this about everything, we´d still sit on trees. :wink:

Hi Rona
You are right but we have a permition from each one parent of our childrean to publish thier photos.
We have papers on it.
I'm not publishing the photos on my page, you can see them on a page of dogotheraphy.

Other thing - I hope nobody will think that Wolfdogs are dogs for theraphy!!!
Some Wolfdogs (I hope) can be use: selected and trained.
I try to examine this, I know thier + and - .
If you want to do best theraphy just take Golden or Labrador.

by

Mirka,
I'm afraid you didn't read my post carefully or misunderstood it completely. I never said that Ela should stop training dogs or that I didn't appreciate her efforts. On the contrary! I'm convinced that this is one of the activities where some CSVs can show their full potential and be very successful. Ela is a responsible person, a doctor, and she knows well what she's doing.

I only mentioned my doubts concernning the SELECTION of photos as a broader problem which accidentally cropped out in this topic.! It is important to show that CSVs may be used for therapy, but at the same time the possibilities of misusing the photos should be limited to absolute minimum. Pictures of dogs sitting or lying by the sick children are "innocent" in my opinion, but the ones which show the actual therapeutical techniques may be "dangerous" if used for wrong purposes, by greedy, irresponsible people who browse the Internet in search of "easy" opportunities.

CSVs and PR of the breed are important, but the goodwill of the sick children even more... We shouldn't make life easy for dishonest pseudo-therapists. This problem has nothing to do with Ela or her dogs, which I made very clear in my first post.

No doubt about that :D But again, this is not the problem I raised.

I did send Per Olav a link to your page and mentioned that the actual healing techniques were probably kept confidential by the therapists in the best interest of the kids. That's why I was so surprised to find them on-line on the official "dogoterapia" page.

Ela, you wouldn't believe to what extent people tend to belive in what they wish to believe :cheesy: I personally think that CSVs are best at what their masters are good at and truly involved in. That's why I predict Amber and Beti will become very successful therapists
:ylsuper

Rona,

I do not see anything wrong on the pictures. I brought recently several dog magazines from Czech republic, at least in two of them are articles about canistherapy, including similar photos, that Ela just posted. Those dog magazines are national, so really many people can see the photos. And both the journalist and the canistherapeuts do not see anything bad on printing them publicly.

You can´t just take a child, put him on the ground and a dog under his legs. Yes, everyone who reads a bit about canistherapy and dogs as such will know, that warming the childs body using the dog helps to ease the spasm of the sick child. But that does not mean, that everyone can do it and every dog can be used.

As a journalist myself, I visited once canistherapeut society called Pomocne tlapky in order to write article about them. I was shown how the dogs are trained, what they can do, I was invited to different events. And I was shown and offered and e-mailed many photos, such as the one´s Ela posted. Why? To print them out in our newspapers and show how the dogs are helping.

Website of Pomocne tlapky (Helping paws) can be seen here:
http://www.pomocnetlapky.cz/english/index.html

And on their site you can also find photos such as Ela posted. For example here: http://www.pomocnetlapky.cz/asistenc...nka1/arin1.htm

Maybe in Czech republic people have different view on this topic. But I really do not see anything wrong on the photos, neither on the fact that Ela posted them. I think Ela is doing great job and cross my fingers for her to continue well with both her dogs.

I completely agree with Mirkawolf and from my point of view the photos from Ela are superb showing the dogs and the children in complete harmony, a situation far from the crippeled view of the breed that our Ministry of Justice has adopted from those who were fronting the Norwegian ban of the breed.

I do hope of the kind assistance from Ela and others to fight the ban in words and pictures by informing the Norewgian visitors of my site of the versatility of our breed.
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Per Olav
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Per Olav

Sorry Guys, but you haven't convinced me. The argument that something is OK because other people do it is not valid for me: having been an academic teacher for many years in Poland and in the UK, I'd heard it ever so often! :D Neither the benefits for the breed PR appeal to me - but this is probably just a matter of priorities! (Per Olav, I understand your detremination in the breed promotion and will help you with the webpage if only you wish, despite my doubts. :) )

Besides, I want to stress, that my views are not the views of all Polish people as opposed to Czech or Norwegian, but my own, personal opinions. I can assure you that you can find all sorts of articles in Polish magazines which does not mean that everything that's written or shown in them is accepted by everybody. Mirka, do Czech journalists really believe that people have the same attitude to something just because it was published? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :wink: (This is just a joke, of course, so take no offence)

One more question to Ela: I've read somewhere that dogs that were trained for defense are formally not allowed to work in dogotherapy. Is that true? Because I remember seeing photos of Amber being defense trained. Or am I mistaken? I know that Amber is exceptionally amicable and sweet, but wasn't that a formal obstacle towards his certification?

This is just a plain question asked out of curiosity, so don't treat it as an attack on Ela, please. 8)

Honestly, most of Czech journalist cares only to write about things, that will make people buy their newspapers or magazines! And many of them will adapt the real story to make it sound better (or worse) just to make it more interesting. What they themselves believe, is not relevant at all.
But I think this is the case for many journalist in every country.

Believe it or not, this not the way I write. But that´s another story.

Oh and just like you Rona, what I say here is only my personal opinion and my personal experiences. Of course different people can have different opinions on the thing.

I strongly believe, with many foolish obstacles for the breed in Norway, UK, USA etc. we should only support any kind of good propagation for the breed. Not to make it popular like labradors, but to show they are no wolf-hybrids, but normal dog breed able to work in all kinds of situations.

My frustration it relatet to the fact the Norwegian ban of the csv as a breed, despite the favourable information from among others the Slovakian club of breeders, was based on accusations communicated from our Ministry of Justice to our Government mentioning the breed as a dangerous one and hardly to handle by man. I'll suppose it's in the interest of the breed to show our new Government that the ban of the csv was based on desinformation provided by individuals having specific interest of having the breed banned ?
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Per Olav

It is true. But he wasn't train to defence. Several times he took part in an execices which could be a beginning to defence training but we didin't develope this.
Except of it - he worked with childrean 3 months, now Beti is working. I wrote it on my page - Amber will not be used any more. It is too big stress for him.

To conclude the above discussion I think it would be fair to write only about the first attempts to train CzW for dogotheraphy, not that they are already in in, because this may be misleading: CSVs have not proved to be good therpists yet, though of course they might in the future if people like Ela, Mijke or Daniel (Andariel Wolf's owner) put a lot of effort and heart into it.

Per Olav, I really understand your frustration at the ban of CSVs but remember that handicapped kids are sometimes unpredictable, they may hit, bite, scratch, pinch etc. the dog and he must be fantastically well trained and socialised in order NOT to react instinctively. I have a friend who is a therapist (not dogotherpist, though) and she told me that during the sessions sometimes things happen in fractions of seconds and however well she controls the situation she cannot fully anticipate the reactions of kids.

If only one stupid guy hurts only one handicapped kid by offering him only one unqualified dogotherapy session with a CSV, it would be an additional serious argument AGAINST the breed and may spoil the work and efforts of many people. Imagine the uproar in the media and all the "catchy" headlines about wild wolfish beast that attacked poor, sick kids, not to mention the feelings and reactions of the parents. In such a case nobody would mention the fact that the kid first "attacted" the dog! These are simply very, very serious and sensitive matters, especially that they involve the element of unpredicatbility of both sides: the kids and dogs.

Personally I'd rather concentrate on the CSVs' versatilty as companions and friends of people of various ages, professions and lifesyles, as well as friends of other animals and NOT ONLY their working abilities, however great they might be.

Hi Rona. I do fully agree with your conclusion. Until the usability of the csv as therapy dogs are proven it's better de-emphasizing on the subject. However I think it's worth mentioning?
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Per Olav

Sure! :bigok

Hi Rona,

I would never take any risk with dogs and kids or probelmatic youth. I agree with your conclusion because not everyone knows what is his dog like (in Holland there are even frightened CsW)

But..... when people have experience with (even "probelmatic" dogs) for years, I can say they can judge a bit :cheesy:

And then I can tell you even a CsW is able to do such a difficult work! :D
So I think Per can tell everyone that also a CsW is a normal dogbreed who can also do such things :D

But like all other breeds also in the CsW breed not every dog is the good type to show this :D :roll:


Mijke

Mijke, I full agree with you. See my post from April 20th:
Though I suppose there are probably breeds that are better predisposed for this particular type of jobs, which Ela mentioned earlier.

CSV breed was initially "created" for working in tough conditions, for running, tracking, searching for people etc. I suppose they have such abilities/skills in their "blood". But that doesn't mean that that they cannot do any other "jobs" which other dogs can. It's just the matter of how, where and by whom they've been brought up. :D

I don't know how many certified therapy dogs we'll find in my country, if any at all - but I suppose working with children with different disabilities requires dogs with an excelent character and temper. I suppose that's why we don't see a large number of trained and certified therapy dogs?

Therefore I must admit that even thinking of the csv as a therapy dog will astonish those who was in favour of banning the csv i Norway as well as our legislative authoryties. The first one will certainly refuse any allegation of the possibility, the second who followed the advice from the ignorant desinforming opponents of the breed will maybe start some rethinking on the subject.

Anyway I'd like to have information of training and usability of the csv as therapy dogs. I'll promise to communicate the information down-to-earth :)

--
Per Olav

Of course it's true. We had such situation at our school.
Amber used to touche with his tounge childrean's faces (I don't know English word - lick? :oops: ) and one day a girl bit him at his tounge. It was a terrible pain for him and he jumped 1m high and cry. He didn't make an agrresive thing, but for a long time he was affraid of this girl.
A situation hard to control. Even though we have one adult person for each child.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
He must have a fantastic personality!

I believe that the dogs can feel that childs and "special persons" is "harmless" for they, depending on the personality of her, he will have a different reaction.

Amber IS a very special dog, a real darling! :bussi

My friend, the physiotherapist, almost lost her eye once, when working with a very young spastic kid with ADHD. Of course the little girl had no idea she might hurt the person trying to help her, but the blood and pain were still the same, really hard to bear.

I suppose not many dogs were able to behave like Amber in similar circumstances. Unless they were brought up to such 'work' from puppyhood, and even then it sometimes might be too hard for them. 8)

Today BETI passed an exam (for puppies) to be a theraphy dog!
She got a grade - excellent and was one of the better dog starting in it :)

A few words more about CsV in dogotherapy.
There are two kinds of dogotherapy:
AAA - Animal Assisted Activities
AAT - Animal Assisted Therapy

AAA is more easy, and many CsV with good character and socialization can do it (like Andariel or Mijke dogs).
They can go to schools, camps and more... They can educate people (specialy childrean) and work with people with dogo-fobia. They can visit hospitals and houses of special care.

AAT needs a special selection of dogs, training, exams and a big knowlaged (a person). It is a work of a group of people: a therapist, a doctor, nurse and more... and also a dog.
In AAT we should be very cautious using CsV.
This breed was not creating for this. But it is possible...

Congratulations!!!!!!! :klatsch

Mijke

Congrats from Norway too :cheesy:
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Per Olav

Many congratulations - it is fantastic both for you and Beti!

J.

Exactly!

That make one dog good or bad for this is not the breed, color or size, but the personality of the dog (and the knowledge of the owner too) :D , this is different in all dogs, like in humans, is only, I believe that is impossible find 2 dogs with equal personality, same.. can but equal never.




As I said, this go depend on the personality of the dog, that is only 8)

What you find about this? :mrgreen:

Congratulations!!!


Paula

Great news! Congratulations!!!