Galiba guilty ??
 

it would be more than 189 descendants ....... I stopped counting ..... to 189
and this affects nine farms or similar in France not including those in Italy, because they would be more too, more than half of those that everyone knows are affected

they all go to the "MIX" I get to FINALLY see that this becomes the "great no matter what"?

what makes me say we pay the piper bullshit that people have of the TSE at the time the "crying wolf" was the reference he had to follow and that it was essential to work on these lines ....

and realizing NOW proves he does not have some incompetence on the monitoring of purity?
Galiba parents were born in 2000 and 1996 and probably dead now, so a complete inability to check .....

Galiba:
http://www.wolfdog.org/site/fr/dbase/d/3596

So if the problem is there, the questions I ask myself are:

would not it be the original breed club who should be responsible for this mess for not properly followed this line? The same breed club who now swears by DNA testing.
would not it be these bodies "all powerful" should review their copies and give some order to regulate what can still be?
rather than be sporting a "cross" hung on the back of our jackets as a shameful disease (this reminds me of a time we did that one for a religious affiliation).

I call it a beautiful "ball "...... the size of a country ..... (This is a beautiful sacred ball). So instead of typing on hypocritically YOU breeders who have trusted in a time not so long ago and blame OUR French breeders, should not you rather wipe your door?
What I want to show that WD is the way to take a lashing out at our farmers, the perpetual hard to see in our breeders people incompetent and worthless, so that as far as DNA tests are done to prove the good faith of some, as you try to find problems earlier in the lines.
If you had done your job before, if you had alerted people 10 years ago by telling us "attention we issue a doubt about the genetics and breeding Galiba crying wolf do not you think sincerely that French breeders n ' have not changed their view?

So the breed club has it not its responsibility in this Bazard unnamed?
Would not it be just your disability and your lax that takes us in that direction now?
You have yourself created a breach in which we have fallen innocently!
And we treat you incompetent?
And the other question I ask myself: do you defend not just a small "monopoly" that you would still flourishing a while ??... is the question many people ask .... For the recognition of that race in two English-speaking countries, this opens a significant financial perspective (maybe I'm wrong, but I get the top spokesman for many people "ignorant" like me.
And the last question is:

How will we get out of this mess immeasurable?

I invite you to simply watch the descent of Galibi? these brothers and sisters should also be criminalized

http://www.wolfdog.org/site/fr/dbase/d/3596

and see if one of these dogs is not part of the family tree of your dogs ....

It is at this point that it becomes annoying ...

Friendly

Is it really the time and place to look for the guilty ones? Maybe instead of blaming the original breed club, it should be clever to test the suspicious dogs officialy?
So little people care about the regulations of original breed club (HD tests, bonitations), but it is confortable to blame it in this case :lol:

5 generations of descendants known ........... 445 dogs ..... my GOD !!!

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d=3596&depth=5

What you write here about some 445 dogs? I don´t understand. Do you want write here they are mix or what?

Offspring1Gen=17 | 5Gen=445 | allGen=445

Yes, I see he has 445 offsprings. But I want know, why you write 445 dogs- my God. Do you mean all his offsprings are some bad dogs? Mixes? Or? I have 2 his offsprings and they are czechoslovakian wolfdogs.

I totally agree with this, I myself a descendant of Galibi and I see in it a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, but if one follows the logic of WD, all dogs should be spent in category "MIX" , that is what makes me say "my god"

Aha, sorry, now I understand you what you mean.

Hi Ariminium,

the problem is not Galiba or some Crying Wolf dogs.
In 2002 I saw Galiba at the age of five weeks, when he was still with his mother and I know most of his ancestors. He is a pure CSW.
I didn't want him because he was much too shy for my purposes and even panicking when Edit took him into the house.
The problem occured in the following generations in France or Finland, in fraudulent breeding like the C and D-litters de la Louve Blanche or the G-litter de l'Ostrevent, by the ones like Capiez, Domer or Turkilla.
Ruining the reputation of sensible French breeding.
Neither wolfdo.org admins nor some persons posting here are the problem of the admittedly not really good reputation of French breeding at the moment.
The above mentioned (and others in Germany and Italy in the next future) persons are the problem.

Michael

Lorry, I think you dont WANT to understand the question about "why Admin writes english at all other foruns", because it's easier to you simply come here and write in French using this silly excuse.
Admin does not need to speak all the languages of Wolfdog.org, but at least one language everyone can understand ( or will have someone to translate in every language) and it is English.
Because Admin did wrote in English at French forum does not give to you or any other french people the right to comes here writting in French at english forum.

It's a simple common sense question, isn't it?

If YET you havent understood, is very different the moderators translate few posts done in english by admin and the moderatores translate whole pages of topics with several members writting in different languages to English.

Moderators and Admins have their own life outside wolfdog.org.

Then next time you do it I will freeze your account for 2 weeks. ;*
(it's valid for all the others members)


Of course, I will start to remove all posts in "other languages" which appeared at this forum from now on because I consider that some kind of lack of respect to the English speakers wich comes here to learn and also to the international members who make part in this forum.

Here in Finland the Kennel Club just lately published terrible news in Cotton De Tulear breed; over 700 dogs in the breed have found out to have falce pedigrees, and so they have now been removed to 'not for breeding' -register.
They were still pure breed (not mixes of several breeds) but had wrong parental information.

The high number of the offspring does not make a difference; if some dog is found out to have falce pedigrees, all the offspring of that dog will also pay the price for this no matter how many there are. So in a small breed this could cause serious problems after a huge part of the whole population should be left outside breeding.

Oh, I did moved also the post of Ariminium in reply to MichaelundInaEichhorn, which he translate to english, as I cant bring it back here is it:

I really hope I get it right - but: there are two SEPARATED cases.

One are the mixes in France. They have not a lot to do with Crying Wolf. There is no sence to attack CW for the mixes you have in your country - there can see Saarloos mixes among CW dogs but they do not explain the AWD crosses in your country. As I wrote some time before there are proves that Franch breeders cover their females with AWD and use AWD for breeding.
What happend in France is simple cheating of the pedigrees - parents do not match with the dogs listed in the pedigrees. Dogs are replaced with AWD-mixes. And it seems that some AWD puppies are also "added" to the born litters. It is the main reason of the mess you have in France now.
michaelundinaeichhorn already listed kennels responsible for it. Because it is hard to check which dogs are replaced and which pedigrees are cheated we can simply said that nobody of us can be sure on ANY dog bred but the mentioned kennels. What we CAN be sure is that at least some of the dogs are pure AWD or AWD-Csw crossed.

THIS must be solved by your own kennel club. Let's say it openly: Slovakia can easily ban ALL French dogs. The breed will survive without French dogs. BUT I think it is not fair against all the breeders who not only want to breed pure CsW in France and those who really breed pure Wolfdogs. But it is your work to clear the situation in France.
We will not put any "MIXES" text to the French dogs but all "de la Louve blanche" and their offspring will be marked with "suspicious" - there are to many untypical dogs born there which do not even resemble Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. I hope your kennel club and breed club will arrange any OFFICIAL DNA test and verifu the pedigrees as soon as possible.
I REALLY HOPE SO.

The Crying Wolf is another case and the "involved" French kennel is "de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale". There are the red puppies born. There were cases of untypical puppies born also in Czech Republic. Additionally I was informed also about the untypical character of some CW dogs + the fact that there are a Saarloos living by CW. And we must add also the strange behaviour of the CW breeder who is so offraid of any DNA tests.
Of course we can add also some problems of "de la Louve blanche" - but CW-case do not explain the French AWD crosses. It is possible that the Saarloos-mixes from CW can make the French mixes looking much more untypical. But they are just "addition" to the French problems.

So we have two cases: AWD crosses in France and possible Saarloos crosses in Hugary. The breeders do not want to make DNA tests - and/or the national kennels clubs are not interested to solve the problems (to keep to the FCI rules). So the "simple" CsW breeders can only "guess" the possible mixed lines basing on the uptypical dogs appearing in those lines. We will follow it with "suspicious" text. I hope it will be a good motiovation for the breeders and owners (and the kennels clubs) to solve the problem.

Exactly. That there are mixes among the French Wolfdog - it is a FACT. There are no doubts about it.
All mixes will lose the pedigrees - if we will solve this problem now - maybe olny the mentioned number of 445 dogs will lose the peodgrees. But if we will wait some years the 445 can turn to 4450. What will cause much more "damage" to the breed than just signing "suspicious" by the few dogs today...

I do not understand why the Slovakian club must be responsible for it? In the fact the Slovak club do not have any influence on the Hungarian or French breeders.
The Hungarian and French kennel clubs as FCI members must GARANTY that the pedigrees given by them have any value - the French and Hungarian Clubs are responsible for it. In this case we know that there are some serious irregularities - that at least some pedigrees has been cheated. So: either the French club will decide to investigate this case or we will come to the conclusion that if there are such cheatings allowed we can not be sure about ANY pedigree given by the national kennel clubs in the mentioned countries.

The red puppies born by de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale kennel come out of the two Crying Wolf-dogs and the parentage has been tested and confirmed. At the moment there is not doubt that the "red colour of a Saarloos" come out of the Crying Wolf kennel.
The same is with the Czech case of white puppies - the parentage is also tested there.
In both cases "Galiba"'s blood was involved.
Although I also think that not Galiba is the possible Saarloos mix but there are serious questions if he is father of (all) his offsprings and not the Saarloos Dvorack living by Crying Wolf.

In other words, there is a possibility that Galiba himself is not a Saarloos mix, 'simply' that his name was hung on papers which were actually sired by the Saarloos Dvorak?

Hello admin, you know nothing (!!) about my pups, so be so friendly and don´t write about my pups like about untypicle, OK?
You attacked them when they was 2 days (because you hate owner of father of pups) old and it continues now, when one of these puppy is World winner. Are you really so envy person?
You know nothing about genetic base of this pups.....
You don´t know history of breed here in Czech.
You never had seen pups in 80., 90. years....

There is another possibility - if the matings were made unintentionally (because for example Dvorack or the females excaped from the cages) the females can be really covered by Galiba but ALSO by the red Saarloos. So there is a possibility that even in one litter some puppies can be sired by Galiba and some by the red Saarloos.

Of course there are some arguments against the word "unintentionally" - first because it seems that the same story repeated again and again. Second good argument given by one of the breeders is that fact that CW kennel base on breeding and rising money - there was no logical explanation for buying a MALE Saarloos in a country where there were NO females for mating. In all neighbor coutries there were maybe 3-4 females. So from the "economic" point of view owning a Saarloos made no sence.

But there is also (almost) no possibility that Galiba is Saarloos mix - he was born 2002.01.14. Dvorack (the Saarloos) on 05/10/2003 - we have no information when he joined the CW pack but basing on this information we can say that the CW litter A (1999.02.03) - M (2004.01.31) are pure. In fact there were also no untypical characteristics appearing by the offsprings of those dogs.

The red puppies born in the litter of Thalia and Sibir show that a red Saarloos was "involved" in this line. There are problems with the colours, Saarloos character and exterier appearing by the offsprings of "V". Now it seems also by "R".

So it would be good idea to make the parentage test of ALL Galiba offsprings. Galiba is still alive - his offsprings too. There would be a possiblity to take the blood of Galiba (by a OFFICIAL comission) - send it to Laboklin or Antagene and to send there also the blood of his puppies. The owners would get confirmation that their dogs are sired by Galiba (or not).

What is also unknown: there is the possiblity that also other litters can be sired by a Saarloos. At least there are some "strange" things happening also by some other litters - as the mentioned "Y" CW. In this case the same thing can be done - the blood of Issar can be stored by Laboklin or Antagene and the owners can get certificates confirming that their dogs are sired by him.

In this case at least some dogs can be cleared without any "help" of CW-breeder (who is not interested to help anybody).

I do not hate anyone - I have no reason to be envy. Being not a breeder has its advantages.
What I wrote base only on the arguments/facts written in this topic: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=20855
After it I asked several (also long-time) breeders and all of them described the puppies as "strange". I do not say the puppies are mixes but they vary a lot from the "standard" - it is why I wrote "untypical" (maybe it would be better to use "not typical" word).
Anyway it seems to be another "abnormality" appearing in the CW line which must be cleared.

An Idea
 

In defense of the breeder, who apparently is 100% confident that no problems have stemmed from there kennel, I recommend to them (in there best interest) to give DNA samples from Galiba and the "red Saarloos" and send them in to the officials for the sake of their honor since it seems everyone is "out to get them". They obviously have nothing to hide; they even said so! :roll:

Then what are you waiting for these tests?
Galiba that passed away?

it would be a lot of innocent dogs

I don't think Galiba's owner or owner of other suspected CW dogs is cooperating at all, and there isn't any 'dog police' which can compel or force such an action upon an owner :/

and yet when I read the many posts I really feel that we are in full Judgement without evidence, with little chance to defend themselves properly because even openly asking what evidence we have, things n 'no change, worse, they get worse with each new "discoveries" to each new revelation unfounded, just based on "one says" ......

I can not go to Hungary. I can not ask for the blood - especially that the breeder is against the tests.

The ONLY people who can make it are the owners of the puppies - they can ask for it OFFICIALLY due to the fact that the whole can IS suspicious.


Please read the topic once again.

There are red puppies born. IT IS A FACT. The b-colour NEVER existed by our breed. SECOND FACT. The parents of the red puppies are Crying Wolf CsW. THIRD FACT. And the Saarloos was/is living by the CW breeder is another fact.

That the cages by CW are not "Wolfdog-proof" and that the breeder is AFFRAID to make any DNA tests are just another small facts. And there is much much more...

Do you have another explanation how the red colour (bb) appeared by Crying Wolf and why it is present ONLY THERE?


I really undserstand the problem of Galiba-offspring owners BUT if we will not solve the problem NOW in few years we will have MUCH MORE "Galiba" offsprings. What will happend when (new) DNA tests will show that some offsprings of Galiba are Saarloos crossees? NOBODY WILL ASK THE OWNERS - nobody will care. The dogs - ALL OF THEM - will lose the pedigrees.
Do you want to be one of the people who will be responsible for it? We NOT.


The whole problem looks like this: you are trying to protect Galiba-offsprings owners. There is the possiblity that some of the dogs are mixes - and some not. It seems that some of them are kept for "guilty" deservedly.

What we are trying to do is to protect purebreed CsW-breeders. They do not want to breed mixes - and they really ask to mark ALL suspicious lines. Because they don't want to use ANY possible mixes. It is not about not using the CW dogs or dogs from any other kennels. But abnout not using any untypical dogs which can be a mix.
If you will ask the breeders you will consider that there was no such casee for MANY years in Germany, Czech Republic or Slovakia. The same apply as far I know to Lithuania and Poland. It was sure that the dogs bred there are pure. But now also this pure populations can be destroyed - "thanks" to the French and Hungarian mixes.

My suggestion: WE can not do anything. We are not a organization. But the breed clubs in the origin countries ARE. Ask them for help - they can speak with the Hungarian kennel club and send a breeding comittee with veterinarian who will OFFICIALLY take the blood of the suspiciousd dogs. I think they will be interested due to the fact that some of the suspicious dogs are living also in CZ and SK.

So far I like the behaviour of two male owners: Juri and Issar. Thanks to it the cases of "Y" and "P" litter from Crying Wolf can be solved pretty fast. The blood of Juri is as far I know already stored. So the owners of the "P"-litter can test their dogs. Mother of this litter - Yolka - was sold to "nowhere". But the second owner - of Issar - Sona Bognarova is was prepared to offer the blood of Issar for testing. So the "Y"-CW owners will have the possiblity to test their dogs too.
It do not solve the "real" problem of "Galiba" offsprings but at least few CW owners will have the possiblity to sleep calm.

I see you are from France - you country is the best example what will happend when we will not care about purebreed breeding. Whan you will take a look on othe CsW population in other countries you will see that the Saarloos mixes story will not make bugger damage to them - there are only FEW dogs which can be "afflicted".

In France you have the situation showing what will happend if the breeders will not care for the fact that some dogs look and some are for 100 % MIXES.
If the breeders do not care and use all the Saarloos, AWD and White Shepherd crosses and the Kennel Club do not make anything to verify the pedigrees even in the cases where cheating is OBVIOUS the only result you get is a population where maybe the biggest part of the population is not purebreed and the peidgrees are worth NOTHING.

No - we really preffer to verify (or to suspect) more dogs than needed. Than to allow them to breed and to spread what will cause that soon we will have to change the name of this breed to "Czechoslovakian Mongrel" or to "French-Czecho-Slovakian White-Saarloos-Malamute-Shepherd-something-wolfdogs"...

Now I ask this question:
Are you sure that there is no other red puppies in other farms but these farms have not declared the puppies to avoid being put in default?
I've seen in other races unreported atypical color not to be excluded from probgrammes dde selection with the fear of being misjudged.
I highly doubt that e is only the fault of the French and Hungarian, sorry ...
seen the mess that it has a transaprence from a French breeder, I highly doubt that another breeder make such a statement one day seamlessly, because even me, if such a thing happened, I do not show everyone. I have two more of Galiba down, so more reason not to other descendants in the Tourment.
by against, what I would do is a DNA test with the search for gene "B" on my four dogs and do my comparison.
as I put on a French post, looking at best practice, the possibility of a marriage to some accidental Dvorak (the Saarloos) would represent more than one dog on worries Because of this litter were born 3 males but only one has reproduced Sibir and if this is the case( sirius and siegfried and reported no puppies), you can pay tribute to the farm that has been transparent, because with this statement, we could isolate the problem now and not in 10 years.
before condemning all the descendants of Galibi, do not you think it would be simpler to test in the first place the marriage with flash crying wolf?

publicly here.

DNA profiles from juri is at laborklin :-)!

I pay the DNA of my puppy!!!

I hope so sign up owners ...

owners from Juri Puppy "P" ....
please contact me :-)

What a great attitude! :)

Exactly! Transparent and cooperative! 8)

For sure Galiba is not a SWH mix!
I did bring Dvorack on 10-04-2004 to CZ (you even can see this in gallery: http://www.wolfdog.org/site/nl/gallery/cat/5/0/78 )
And a few weeks later Dvorack did join the CW pack in Hungary.

I have seen Dvorak many times and from what I remember he should be sterilized since years and he is younger than Galiba.
Don't you think we are really hunting down ghosts? getting proper info instead of spreading shit around would be more appropriate, don't you think?

I really do NOT think that you are investigating on the right direction...

massimo, maybe this is the second coming of christ??

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/phot...92d5adee9d.jpg

no...i don't believe in miracles...i believe there are breeders who lie and cheat and make false papers and maybe even false tests...
i just don't think that the country is right...
there is too much mess going on...DM results which do not correspond, strange colours...ORDER should be established (i wrote it ages ago but mostly i was ignored, because it's better to attack aimlessly and destroy than to be creative and focus...)
I will wait and see...

Should, but he did officially an Sarloos litter in 2007, means that till this time he wasn't sterelized, it fits perfectly with the birth data of the S (2005), V (2006) and Y (2007) litter born as CzW in Crying Wolf kennel.

Exactly, you are absolutely right.

The doubts are also on Y litter??
Father of Y is Issar, owner is Sona Bognarova, not Edit Molnar so why not ask DNA samples to her?

Ms. Bognarova answered the question here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=130

Appears that Issar is at CW kennels. I do not know if DNA has been carried out since Ms. Bognarova posted in June of this year.