Breeding mixes - the other side of the spectrum.
 

It's clear that the vlcak community doesn't appreciate fake pedigrees, mixes, etc.. trying to make their way into the breed registries but oddly it's the opposite (to some point) int he GSD world.

There is some wolf in many GSD lines (you can be pretty certain that if a GSD is working DDR or working Czech line, there's wolf in there). The kennels that were part of the ini9tial vlcak program were GSD kennels and it is highly suspected that some of the dogs that didn't stay in the vlcak program were put back into the GSD kennels and even later, some wolf was added into the lines.

But - you don't see the outcry over this, in fact, the opposite to some degree. Some people actually want that for non-military work (schutzhund, ring, etc.). Some seek out these kennels or their lines just for that.

Please provide your sources. Thanks.

You're not going to get any because you're talking about a reime that was very secretive - even vlcaks were top secret.

But - do you really think cash strapped countries like Czechoslovakia would take the non-vlcaky dogs out of all gene pools? The kennels and lines used then are still in existance.

So.. this is just your simple assumption, then?

From my point of view, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, that's also accusing CZ kennels of inaccurate pedigrees..

Why doesn't it make sense? Well as far as I know, the CsV project was not to create a new breed, it was an attempt to make a better German Shepherd Dog. If they could have succeeded in incorporating the progeny of the outcrosses into their GSDs, the experiment would have been considered successful. It wasn't.

There is NO reason as I can see for zPs to lie and say that the experiment was a failure, and then to falsify pedigrees so as to incorporate the progeny into their GSDs anyway. It would have made more sense to simply say that the goal of their project was a success and that their GSDs are now an improved product of their project.

Besides, based on zero evidence anyway, all is purely conjecture..

>>> http://www.ruffgsd.com/

http://forumbilder.se/images/2702011120652e29f.jpg
check german shepherd dog lines from Kennel Straze

>>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1149.html

>>> http://www.jinopo.cz/bloodlines.php?lg=en

;-) Best regards / Mikael

PS, I like this kind of GSD´s ;0))), DS.

:confused2

Something about Grim zPs and Xero? I don't see the significance? PD is down right now too.

Everything is seen so well from USA, isn't it? ;-)
Well, there is one thing that is not money - it is decency :lol: A non "cash strapped country" like UK still breeds liver or blue colored GSD, while in these "poor" countries people have clubs that forbid breeding GSD with no IPO training :lol: No matter about the money.

Back to topic - GSD are not wolfish dogs, they have no character similarities to CsV, so even if there is a wolf, it does not make real influence to the breed. What is this discussion about really?

Hi Draggar, I read your text a few times and I don´t understand. Dou you mean in this family of GSD is czech. wolfdog? Why?

Originally posted by yukidomari:

"Well, California is officially bankrupt" ..:twisted:

Correct - also caused by the "help" of a political dilletant who is more well-known now as being the "Sperminator"....:evil_lol:shake

So far to that - (yes,it´s very off topic...but I couldn´t resist that little joke.:lol: )

Originally posted by yukidomari:
"And the cities, at least Krakow, aren't a commercial wasteland like Los Angeles is. It actually has art, city planning, and history.. :lol:.. oh, and it's beautiful."

Yes, Yuki- I agree to you ! Krakow - just like the inner old city of Warszawa also - was reconstructed and rebuilded after war in a really exemplarily way ... It´s simply beautiful, just like you tell !

(And I think I´m able to talk about that because I´m Dipl.-Ing. for architecture by profession.;-))

I only know one city in Germany which can be compared - this is Dresden.

Best regards, Uli alias Silvester

So they crossed Carpathian wolves with GSDs to make a "better gsd"?

Sounds like your statement supports my claim. :)


Well, as far as I know Czechoslovakia wasn't a rich country at that time, they were under Soviet occupation so most of the money went to the Soviets. So they had ot make the most of what they had. Offspring from the project who didn't make it in the vlcak project could have stayed in the GSD project, sold to other people, and bred.

I look at it the same way why we look at the Belgian shepherd and why they're so versatile. Belgium was never a rich country so unlike more well off countries (like the UK (well, techncially England) for many years who could afford one dog for guard work, one for hunting, one for herding, one for companion, the Belgian shepherd became a dog that was good in many aspects.

It is highly suspected in some DDR nd Czech line German shepherds that there is wolf in there.

So true. My wife and I are trying to plan a trip to Europe sometime in the next few years. Belgium to meet up with Kiri's breeder, then the Sieger tour with Fred Lanting, then over to Czech Republic and Slovakia to meet up with vlcak people. I've always wanted to see Prague. It looks like one of the very few cities in the world that has truly kept it's history and culture (but I hear it's the new Amsterdam, though?).

Sure, as I understand, that was the initial goal of the outcross project. Which also as I understand was considered a failure. .... It didn't make a better GSD. And I think persons who understand the nature of a wolf today, would know why, in regards to the wanted temperament of a GSD.

Course.. I've no proof to the contrary, just like you've no proof to the affirmative, besides some unnamed persons who 'strongly suspect' so.. ;)

Yes, living in Lithuania under soviet occupation, Czechoslovakia looked like a nice dream :roll: But still it doesn't mean people there had no decency. Offsprings from the project, who weren't "suitable" were simply killed (at least most of them).

Does your disrespect for a breed come from thinking that there are similar mixes also in today's GSD? Or it is because you think that people, who created the breed, were liars and cheaters, so thay also allowed GSD-wolf mixes to become pedigree dogs?

Yes, I have so much disrespect for the breed that ti"m trying to form a UKC club for them, I made a website just for the vlcak breed, we have one of our own and have been fostering another on and off for over a year now (and over 6 months non-stop now). I've also educated a lot of people about the breed and always refer to them as "vlcaks" and not "wolfdogs" because of the negative connotations and legal aspects of "wolf dogs" here in the USA.

I'm also trying to get ethical breeding standards set here in the USA for the breed (including several health certifications, DNA for parent to puppy testing, and so on) as well as taking a lot of time and money out of my own pocket to help develop resources (including an American based vlcak database / registry).

I'm also working with others so that a vlcak rescue "in the ready" so if it's needed we can get it into action quickly.

Yes, I have so much disrespect for the breed that I let Luna sleep on our bed and cuddle with either Pollux or Luna (or both) while watching TV. I've also taken a lot of time to help stabilize Pollux's temperament issues as well as taking every Saturday afternoon to take Pollux just so he can take some sleeve bites in schutzhund (which he loves to do).

Seriously, does that sound like someone who disrespects the breed? :roll:

Well, this side sounds nice, but we also know a part about Pollux the movie star and his breeding, no matter about the character...

But Saarlos was not ment for military service, so that is why it is the way it is. But if it would be a breed still made for military purposes?

i think used malinua :)

I guess a more modern approach would be Sulimov's dogs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulimov_Dog

And they are successful, I think?

we tried to discuss it here

Is it the same thing though? I thought the dogs in that discussion were wolf/GSD crosses used for military work? The dogs I have seen in the news stories here are husky/jackal mixes, used only for sniffing bombs.

* Nevermind, it is still early here. I didn't read the 2nd page. I must wake up. :P

jackal/laika i think. sulimov dog is so called shalaika. i heard that they are in use in airports (explosive detection), but... there is no extraordinary result still

well... what i found in internet about shalaikas. they are extremely shy and surely can't work in crowded spaces, but one shalaika pup costs more than new mercedes :lol:

and even more (sorry for my english, we are from ussr :lol:). their cynologist takes a sample of air with a vacuum cleaner, shalaika sniffs and detects the presence of explosives or narcotics etc. because shalaikas are so shy of strange people:lol:

mama mia... i just imagined...

More lies from the American and British press!:lol: They had a 2-3 minute news special here one night 1-2 years ago on a national broadcast (NBC, maybe?). They showed the dogs and hailed them as "Superdogs" - but, as I recall, they only showed the dogs working in a hidden corner of some airport, with no other people around.

exactly... terrorists shouldn't worry :D

and to vaiva. i think csv would be something like shalaika in our capitalistic days :lol:

Though...on topic of shalaikas, the video from Uli in the other post seems to show them not being too shy - they seem comfortable jumping up on benches near strange people in the airport. They are wonderfully cute! :p

Originally posted by GalomyOak :
"Though...on topic of shalaikas, the video from Uli in the other post seems to show them not being too shy - they seem comfortable jumping up on benches near strange people in the airport. They are wonderfully cute!" :p

Hi Marcy , I think with the shyness of these dogs it depends on individual pre-dispositions and on good socialisation during the first weeks - just like with all dogs.

If you know about the tendency to shyness because of wild canide genes inside the breed ( no matter whether it´s wolf or jackal ), one must take care much more with getting them very good socialiced, by spending a lot of time with the puppies... If you don´t do enough, they will become shy at last, sure. May be this is the only "secret" on what was told about this behaviour of "shalaikas" ( I already told that I like more to call them "sha-la-laikas"...:lol: )

And - as you tell it in your posting- the dogs in the video are not shy at all , as everybody can see.

Best greetings to USA sends

Uli alias Silvester from Germany

i'm sure nobody will show another kind of video while one pup costs so much :lol: i have some friends working in the same structures and they confirm that shalaikas are suuuper shy, sorry :|

Agreed! It's one of the most difficult things to explain to new people with our breed. Shy is not typical, not desired, not common...but not rare, I guess, either. Much of it (not all) is preventable through early (and continued) socialization, and understanding individual dogs as well as lines. It takes a lot of time and research (or good luck!) to know what you are seeing or getting in a CSV puppy. In observing my own dogs (I have the whole spectrum, from the boldest of the bold - crazy! to a quite shy dog, everyone else is inbetween )- the biggest trait they all share is that they are very intense and complicated in their personality, more so than other breeds, I guess. Each one is a puzzle. It's clearly not something everyone is prepared for that buys one.:roll: And this after many decades of very controlled breeding...I love the enigma we have now with the CSV, but recognize it's fragility too if breeders of the future aren't careful.:|

Could moderators separate this stuff to a topic called "Here we talk about everything" or similar? Thanks...

But wikipedia (very trustworfy source :roll:) says, that the experiment with these shakalaikas (it translates so nice to Lithuanian - word jackal and dry branch of a tree, also used for "very skiny" differs in one letter :lol: Šakalas and šakalys) started in 1975 :roll:
It would be interesting to know how individuals, suitable for work, are picked, also what happends to these "unsuitable". Sold to noew russians, if so expensive? :lol:

I am not sure if I told this on this forum, if I am repeating, sorry. I saw a documentary about dogs, where people made an experiment with taming wolfs. They took 5 days old cubs, hand-fed them, each little wolf grew up in families, with other dogs, slept in beds and so on. They were treated as dogs, but never became dogs. They weren't shy - very well socialised. But! I could not stop laughting, seeing how a teenage wolf simply jumps on the table and takes food from owners plate, no matter how many time the owner drops him down, he jumps again (while two dogs are staring with horror). This was so similar to my dog in her early age :lol: So when people ask me about the breed and say "yes, I understand, that dogs can be naughty" this is a nice example to show what "naughty" mean in wolfdogs... So in fact socialisation helps from shyness, but still does not make them "normal" :D

Vaiva, you are describing my house! :shock::lol:

Not really :) Every time there was new enrolment announced, I was absent from school ;-) But I did play the piano at the October Revolution anniversary celebrations :oops::)

I agree, Marcy :) It's so hard to answer questions like "Are they good with kids?" or "Do they bark or howl?" or "Are they friendly to people" or "Do they escape from their owners?" etc. Once, when I tried to be exact, I heard "You own the dog but don't appear to know much about the breed character" :rock_3

Originally posted by Vaiva:
"So in fact socialisation helps from shyness, but still does not make them "normal"" :lol:

Yeah Vaiva that´s surely correct - but I was ONLY writing about shyness.
And that was the only question about what was asked in connection with the shalalaikas...( sounds like "balalaika", so I la-la-like it !:kiss_2:happy)

I´m sure that also these dogs have some differences in behaviour to "normal" dogs, just like a lot (or most) of our vlcaks.

Greetings to Vilnius , Uli