Wolfdogs with fake FCI pedigrees in Italy
 

This is not true, the Italian Club's intention is to take serious actions together with ENCI to control possible "fake pedigrees". Who are you to tell the contrary of what is happening?

uuuups...sorry Lupis you wrote almost three years ago! :|:):oops:

Good to know. As you for sure know one of the hybrids with false pedigree is already imported to Italy. Do you plan to do something with it?

Two members of the technical Board of italian club breed with Mutaras, one of them even with fake pedigree!:lol:
You may expect a huge help from Italian club !
:rofl3

:bigcry2 And what are FCI doing about it :roll: ???
FCI working against mixbreeding :lol: Lolll... " :sleep$$$$$£££££... Zzzzzz.... "

Best regards / Mikael

If the FCI is anything like AKC then they will only intervene with mixed breeds when the majority of people in that breed find it beneficial to themselves (COUGHCOUGHDALMATIONSCOUGHCOUGH),

Even puppy mills are allowed to register dogs in the AKC and join breed clubs (COUGHCOUGHHUNTECOUGHCOUGH).

:lol: Nice they got there own Mixbreed dog name for all mixes 8)
But very very hard to spell :lol:

Maybe we can ask FCI to have a breed called " Pure Mix Breed Dog " :p

Best regards / Mikael

Which country would 'own' this breed? I predict a fight :lol:

I know that dogs suspected to have fake pedigrees came in. Some of them are well known because of Wolfdog, some others are not "openly attacked" by people writing here but nevertheless may exist.
What I want to say is that we need rules contrasting every "fake pedigree" matter

The problem is: how to prove that/if these pedigrees are fake,and what to to in case there is evidence they are.

I believe it firstly have to be checked which remedies are allowed to verify these "not clear" matters.
As you probably already know, in Italy ENCI decides everything and the Club has not any power on pedigrees.
Nevertheless, the club can propose ENCI to try to take some remedies
First of all, it has to be checked if any "control" and "measure" can be carried out:
(1) from a practical point of view (for instance: DNA test, how does it work? which entity is able to do it? can it reveal what we are looking for?), and
(2) from a legal point of view (people cannot be obliged to do this DNA test, but one thing that may be done by ENCI againts these "fake foreign pedigrees) may be to "block" the release of export pedigrees in Italy until this test is done)
This is the first and more important step to do, and the Club is keeping information on the above points

... laughing behind a computer and not doing anything concrete is unfortunately the typical Italian way of solving problems...:roll: but I don't believe it's the most efficient

The italian club has no power on pedigree, but can have power on his members; if you can, join with member of council that think like you (there are? I think one or two but...) and take action at first against the members of breeding committee that breed with Mutaras with faked pedigree.

After that the club may have the legitimacy to ask something to their members or to ENCI.

This is your point of view, but I don't agree with it
What I know is that they have normal LIR (RSR), and not fake pedigrees...but you were in the Club when this Mutara thing happened, not me...we already had this discussion in Italian forum and I don't believe it's of any use repeating it here

I can only answer for myself and for what I know NOW is happening in the Italian Club. Not more than that.
The Club IS activating for this problem. This is a matter of fact and is written in the boards of directors meetings minutes.
This is what I said. Simple.
You believe that the Club MUST take actions according to a certain sequence of steps you decided? Ok, that's your point of view.
But this doesn't mean that the Club is not doing what I said and hereby confirm. Fact. Not opinions.

Ok, so stranger faked pedigree is BAD and italian faked pedigree is GOOD ?
Stranger MIX are bad and italian MIX are good ?
:roll:

I don't know anything of DNA tests, but If breeders agree, I think should be easy to establish a relationship between official Mutaras offspring like Fenrir and so called "RSR pedigree" csw (Alaska) used by Passo del Lupo...

p.s.
as I said to you in ita forum, Susanna leaved the board of cclc many months before the Mutaras came to Italy.

Facts? ... Want to talk about facts?
So I would like a little clarification. and take a step back.
we are talking about legal or illegal market? (Easily traceable thanks to the squawking of Facebook....)
Everything becomes easier once clarified this detail.
because then the words CITES and Authority recover their true meaning...

I not very familiar with the Italian case but I think:

a- none of the Mutara breeders should be part of the breeding commission by the CsW Club.
REASON: breeding Mutaras with CsW pedigrees shows that that people have no BASIC knowledge about this breed. As they have no knowledge about CsW they should not have ANY influence on the breeding in Italy. Because all they can teach other breeders is: HOW TO DESTROY OUR BREED.

b- I checked and it seems all Italian Mutaras are kept illegal - with violation of the European Union law. So if ENCI or Italian Club do not want to clarify this case maybe the Italian officials responsible to keeping to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora will be willing to help?

This is also what I knew! And as far as I heard the LIR/RSR has been given by Czech Republic judges at first, not Italian judges. But this doesn't make much difference. It can be criticized, but it's done 2according to the rules"
That's why I don't understand why Navarre or others talk about fake pedigrees with Mutaras
Then, in hypothesis, also these "suspected" dogs from La Louvre Blanche or others (even if the pedigree will be "annulled") could take LIR/RSR pedigree, but it's different, as people which would want to use them, would know that they are using "CsW type kind of dog" without having any certainty about their genealogy. As it is for any LIR/RSR dog.
But this is permitted by the rules. They cannot be considered "fake pedigrees"
Completely different is believing that a dog has a certain genealogy, when it's not the case

As far we know Alaska was this dog:http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5570.html
In this photo she partecipated to an expo' (we were there) and she wins CAC, i think she had a pedigree (or not?)

After that she disappear and a very strange female, named Alaska, was registered in Italy with (new?) RSR pedigree.:roll:

I call it a "fake pedigree", rules (broken) or not.

But you have already a dog with fake pedigree in Italy:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11911

It is the illegal F1 cross with fake FCI pedigree from Finland.

It is a pity but it seems you are right - I think we start to have problems also with Italian breeders. Yesterday and today I received two emails from different sources with information about very suspicious "Italian" dog which lives in France right now. The dog is a AWD and is totally different than the rest of the litter. "Funny" - it was sold from Italy to "de la Louve blanche" kennel. (all suspicios cases lead ALWAYS to the same source and the same persons are involved)

It seems that this Wolfdog was replaced by a American Wolfdog. The question is if it was done with the knowlegde of the breeder (if he chated the pedigree) or the dog was replaced with AWD already in France (without knowledge of the Italian breeder).

It is about this dog:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11123

I spoke with some breeders and they confirmed that the puppy on the first photo (which I received from the breeder directly) DO NOT MATCH with the dog which photos are put later by the French breeder.

And when I look on the photos of the puppies of Blood's Lykan - they are 100% Saarloos alike (they are not purebreed). I must come to the same conclusion that we have another case of pedigree cheating in France (Italy?).

Good evening,
I feel duty-bound at this point to clarify my position on this matter, especially for the respect I have and that I receive from many people who are part of our race, by the owners to breeders or enthusiasts

Admin: before you write on the forum, was not a problem to write to me on my email asking for explanations.
I would have responded and informed of my position without any problems since I have always worked with the site wolfdog.org and as I have shown forever.
I have no secrets of nothing people for my work.

I give the dog to Frank Capiez to 60 days, with all the necessary documentation as I have always done with all my puppies.
The dog is given a sweet and beautiful female puppy that you see in the picture:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2747/fashionzx.jpg

The regular pedigree puppy in question came to my house after several months, because in Italy in the past to make a Pedigree ENCI we put 8 / 10 months, and I personally sent it to Frank who later I confirmed that it received.
In website of ENCI www.enci.it if you search "libro genealogico" you can find all dogs whit pedigree, also Bloond's of pedigree.

Seeing the pictures and seeing the dog in January I can not say that's Bloond resembles his brothers and sisters because it is different in appearance.
I am also thinking of why a person trip from Paris to Rome, pay the dog and incurs expenditure and change it?

IF something happened or if there was, as you say, some exchange is important that everyone knows that I do not know anything. The puppy that I have given to Frank is the photo.

I regret a little 'we have been, even if indirectly, any doubts about my work and that is why I am here writing in respect to knowledge of all.

Many people know who I am and how I work and I hope that many other people in the future will have the chance to know me and my way of working.
I hope to have been clear in making you understand my position in aswert at your post.

Greetings all

Even if this dog was replaced to have its registration and pedigree papers hung on a mixed breed, I hope that this dog is happy in a family now that cares for her, and not just simply 'disappeared'........................ :cry:

Just for your information and to speak about FACTS, i personally saw the entire litter and I was with Ricardo and Frank when he took the puppy to France.
The picture shown was taken by ME and I confirm that this dog was looking just like all the others, nothing special or different.
the rest of the pics are here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_...7615434271797/

The dog shown in THIS picture
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11123
for me does not correspond to the same dog, but this is just my own personal opinion, not a fact.

What about chip or tattoo - no possibility to proof it?

^^ Massimo: this is just an amazing picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_...7622782135796/
Some photogenic weather you got there! Wow! The wolfdogs fits perfectly in that landscape. :love

(Sorry, OT)

is real shit what french breeders do. i think for this - for replacing a puppy the french kennel club must kick such breeders out. something like this is not possible in normal country!

I will be honest with you. Yes, I kept you (and still keep) for a responsible breeder who was (and is) always fair. But for me it was unbelievable that a French breeder would dare to buy a puppy from you and replace it late with a AWD-mix (and when we look on the photos it is obvious that it is the case here). I couldn't believe that someone could feel so untouchable by the French kennel club and the FCI that he would dare to make something like this.

I asked for the same several breeders and I received the same answer - the puppy showed on the photo would never grow to the adult dog looking like this on photos.

The question is: what you plan to do? Should ENCI be involved? As it seems that the Italian dog was replaced? Or SCC - because different dog was registered with fake pedigree (the dog shows on shows in France is not the dog sold from Italy)?

Also me!
now I still can not believe this, and you have to know that I'm very sad and angry for this situation because I am very fond of all my dogs!


I don't know what happened...I think continue about this.

What to do?
I don't know...now...I'm thinking.

I know Riccardo, he is a responsable breeder, he loves and take care of his puppies and for sure he isn' t involved in any way with this french shit.

If I were you, I'd turn to my domestic Kennel Club and ask for help for dealing with the problem. I belive this is their role and obligation. Even if the local Breed Club is weak and unwilling to act (well, I don't know, just speculate), the Italian Kennel Club should have legal means to oficially support you and represent you at FCI.

Some official enquiry between the KCs should be made to DNA test the dog at the lab indicated by you with your lawyer being present, and the parentage should be checked. Should the results be correct, you'll have to cover the costs of the test (I hope your friends and other breeders or Italian Breed club would help you financially in such case), if not - the French Kennel Club/FCI should take action against the owner. They should also take action against the pup owner should he refuse to let the dog be tested.

I keep reading about the indolence of the kennel clubs and breed clubs and find it really weird. What is the reason for their existnce if they do nothing to save the breed from abuse? Aren't there any statuses, can't their heads communicate, organize some action plan and start its implementation?
It sadly seems their activites have been limited to pedigrees issuing and organization of dog shows :cry:

Rona
the kennel clubs are interested just in ONE thing...MONEY MONEY MONEY!

As for Riccardo, he is member of the Italian CSW club board...

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Over the last few years I've heard of several cases of CSV pups disappearance, mysterious sudden pup deaths never confirmed by any vets, resales of pups from solid kennels to puppy mills by the new owners, etc. etc. I'm not the best informed person since I don't breed, nor go to meetings, camps or shows ... so apparently there must be many, many more similar cases. :cry:

The indolence of KCs is really very short-sighted. What's happened to Riccardo, tomorrow may happen to any other breeder. I just don't understand such lack of solidarity and unwillingness to cooperate among people who claim to be honest and to love the breed :?

Maybe in the face of the crisis, it's time for new elections in the breed/kennel clubs in some countries? :rock_3

=Collecting money. That's what they do best.