Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)
 

One french breeder had the surprise to see red (Saarloos color alike) puppies in the litter Thalia Crying Wolf x Sibir Crying Wolf.

Ever happened to any other breeders ? (Send me an email if you prefer [email protected] )

Do you have any photos? Do you mean reddish like Belke Outlaws Heaven?

no, red color typic Saarloos :

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/phot...92d5adee9d.jpg

Other problem, it's not secret, we have also other dog in France, typic mix, same origin this mariage.

What do you think ???

All people, we like CSW, what let us can be done??? :?

Slowly....slowly... strange results from normal mating start appearing.
Till they are super wolfish everybody is happy (although they are just as unlikely to be real)..but when they come out with a beautiful Saarlos red, people start worrying.

For those who didn't understand what I meant in THIS POST....maybe now you understand!

Solution? EASY!! DNA TEST....without consent of breeder...unofficial.
I don't trust "certain" breeders anymore.
I dont know Lorry and cannot say anything good or bad about her.
Just know that Vorss is owned by her and Vorss sons look strange too...

Martiou, funny thing is that with these "strange" breeding results in france, purchase is INCREASING , not decreasing, which means that the brain of the buyers are getting smaller and smaller...

Hello Massimo,

there are DNA test, Thalia and Sibir are good parents ....

What do you think ????? :rock_3

the big problem now is that touches a very known breeding…. On the English forum we have participants of all nationalities, I would like to have your opinions ..... The French livestock has a very bad reputation, normal, much of very atypical dog… these dogs are for the majority of the descendants of breeding of Sibir and Thalia…. there is what to raise questions ..... no ? :?

Very surprising color. Well, the two dogs are closely related, Sibir being Thalia's uncle on both sides, but still even in close inbreeding I would not expect that color on CSW.

Those are very heavy accusations. Be carefull about what you are saying and also, please read something about genetics before you spread such gossip about any CSW.

If we are really talking about brown pigmentation (red puppy, brown nose):

* To have such a puppy born in a litter with parents with black pigmentation, both parents must have gene for a brown color/pigment. If such gene is possible for Czechoslovakian wolfdogs, we would have brown puppies quite often over the years!

* So, from a CSW statistic, you can NOT have puppy with brown pigmentation from a litter in which at least one parent is pure CSW!



PS: Don't you have a larger photo?

Yes, I think this is the point of the question :p

Best regards / M

Or if they want to understand, maybee this one is better >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...ighlight=mixes

Best regards / M

Who of all wolfdog forum readers did ever see this red (saarloos alike red color with brown nose) before in a CsW litter?

I am only intersted in what you did see (not in names or blaming breeders) :))
Because mutations can always appear in every breed!;)

I would not be surprised if start to appear diluted colors in CzW as weird characteristics due mutations, principally when it comes from a consanguineous mate, but show a different feature in a tipical dog, with tipical proportions is very different than show this in dogs we can see are not tipical.
Im nor even entering here in the merit of "someone cheated or not" but the fact that even by this simple photo we are able to see that these dogs are not CzW independant of their color, it's water clear by their heads.

Well, I did not write accusations but deductions, the facts are:

- Thalia x Sibir gave some red puppies (Saarloos alike)
- DNA tests tells Thalia x Sibir are the parents
- From what I know both parents have to be carriers, so finally hundred of dogs may be involved worldwide

The question of parentage seems to be very important now - it is possible to find out if Galiba really is father of Sibir, but even more important - and harder to find out - is whether parnts of Thalia are the ones that are declared. Thalia and Galiba should have the same father. And there are a lot of offspring of Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora. It is hard, but genetic tests should be able to at least show, if it is possible for two dogs to be half-siblings.

Either way, birth of such red pups from supposedly purebred mating is a grave matter and brings issues such as parentage testing to new levels of importance.

Purely in theoretic part, since we never seen brown CSW before.
Carriers of brown color are quite easy to find by DNA test. Maybe it could help to consider this:

Brown dog (bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are born black pigmented and all are carriers of brown gene (Bb).

Black pigmented dog with brown gene (Bb) + CSW (BB) = all puppies are black pigmented, some puppies are carriers of brown gene (Bb), some not (BB).

Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 50% Bb, 25% bb

You would have to know where to look. If the genetics of red/brown color in wolfdogs was so simple, then finding the mutation would be as "easy" as finding the one for dwarfism... And I do not think there would be enough funding for the research...

Saschia, I don't know. This whole situation is weird.
I've never seen brown European Wolf, CSW or German Shepherd. That indicates CSWs are BB.

Maybe there is some exception for brown/red sable as for example I know the exception for two black&tans to sometimes have puppy with different colour. So I could be wrong.
But system really works so simple for solid brown colour/pigmentation, as far as I've seen with my other breed.
Maybe I'm doing too big jump from solid to sable colour, but I'm sure about solid color and pigmentation should go with it.

This is so easy and universal for all dogs :) Test is avalible. I cant link here but for example in DDC VETERINARY test for one locus (we are intrested in one locus- "B") cost 58 $

Martiou, is the photo you posted a photo of the actual dogs in question, or just two red Saarloos to show the color?

jefta, I looked at the web and the coat color test is only for few breeds and I would not know which locus to test for.
How would this gene work in agouti-colored dogs (like wolfdogs)? The liver-colored nose is not enough to say that this is the gene of interest. You may ascertain it by crossing a liver-nosed wolfdog with liver-nosed labrador and look at the noses of the puppies (but that would be cruelty in my opinion, so please do not try it ;o))

OK, I was mistaken about the funding, apparently.

Agouti is determinated by different locus "Aw"

csv are AwAwBB, this dogs are AwAwbb

The agouti gene would control where the pigments are disposited, the dilution one would transform black to blue (not black to red/liver) ; so here what we see is different, it's the red/liver from bb.

For Saarloos pictures, here are the brown Saarloos I have in the DB SWD Forest-Brown, click on the dog name, then on the next page on "Pictures of this dog", you will see picture of the dog if any found (bad request msg otherwise).

Yes elf, but is it the same gene? Is it the same mutation? If yes, why is it not offered for huskies/malamutes?

Saschia,
I found czech website about testing, for B locus: http://www.genomia.cz/cz/test/locus-b-dog/

I wrote e-mail to Vetgen about testing husky malamut and canis lupus lupus.

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site...RUBRIQUE=31468


After seeing the pictures of these puppies, and having used the ascendants of these dogs I am ready to do the necessary tests on my marriage in order to know if Saarloos were used to make these lines.
And as you stop taking us for idiots.

Nadia CLEMENT
Elevage des plaines de l'Est

Hmm, to my knowledge it's the same TYRP1, you know special breed cases always exist but I guess we can safely consider this valid for our breed.

Hi every One!

My Nickname is Jet, and I m Glad to meet you. After all, exchange every information about our lovely breed is my hobby, since a few month.

I m the owner of Fitz Chevalerie des Plaines de l'Est, a young CSV (10 month : Robin Crying Wolf x Asta Sokoli Oko) who have as Grand Father Galiba Crying Wolf. He is born at Indianous Kernel ('Les Plaines de l'Est' See th post above).

She is a great breeder, and she gave me a wonderfull Puppy. In France, You Know, we have a lot of CSV which are coming from east lines. Crying Wolf is one of the famoust, not the only, yes! uhh? :)

Now it is sure in France, and Wolfdog Website Admin is agreed with that, ADN proof is showing us that Sibir Crying Wolf x Thalia Crying Wolf is giving us wonderfull puppies, but with a very very Saarlos look like.

The purpose is now to understand why... Nothing matter with our Wolfdog, they are beautifull, we love them. It is just to understand.

It seems that the only way is to analyse Galiba's ADN. I don't know if this wonderfull dog is still alive, Where he live... But Rambo, Rubin, Robin, Sibir, Volos, ... have their puppies here in France, and some of them have already got a lot of puppies too (and so on...).

Do you understand? We need your help to know the truth...

Sorry about my English, I m from Bordeaux, better speaking in french about wine than CSV in englih! :)

And never forget, these dogs are our best friends, we love them! :)

Here is, in french, the begining :

http://www.chiens-de-france.com/site...RUBRIQUE=31468

And Warning, these informations are given by a french Breeder (MLS), who is playing the true way. Never forget that it is the most difficult way for a breeder. She'is the only in France to show reality. Thank's for her.

I hope nobody here attack Lorry.....

I hope too.
But in France, across other forums, things are difficult.

In fact, I don't know her. I Just know she is in the right way. But she is just a french breeder, time is to listen the olders one, from all country.

I get answer from vetgen. They can test any breed of dog and wolf.

I would consider it valid for our breed because i've seen such mutation occur in very inbreeded pure european wolves here, but the inbreeding was so high that together with the color mutation we got other weird mutations as well, better saying, deformations, like a wolf with the one paw positioned at the side of the metatarses instead of the right place.
The mate was not such high inbreeding and the problem of these dogs are not only the color, but the tipicity, then is better we forget about a nice thing as an simple color mutation and get real that there happened an mixage which we had no idea about and maybe nor even the breeder.

Looking right now, I dont think it came by Galiba, but by Mona.
Im not telling here that Mona is not pure, but that maybe all the pups of one litter does not belong to the same father, in this case im not thinking about the possibilitie of cheating but remembering that the same litter can have 2 or more fathers depending on the ovulation of the female and when the male covered, also that we all know that wolfdogs are scape artists, much more when you have crazy males and a female in heat.

There are two different types of pigmentation; eumelanin (black/--> blue or brown) and pheomelanin (red/cream). The gene (bb) that causes black pigmentation to turn into brown (liver), only affects eumelanin. So this basically means that whatever the colour of the dog is, all the normally black areas in it's skin & coat are brown. So if the dog would normally be agouti ("wolf grey"), with genotype bb it will end up looking like the forrest brown Saarloos. Or if a dog would normally be solid black like Labrador, with genotype bb it will turn into solid brown.

Here are two sites that explain it all more spesificly:
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net...cs/pigment.htm
and
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/liver.htm

Eumelanin affects skin aswell as hair, but pheomelanin only affects hair.
Some exceptionally reddish wolves do exist, but they always have black skin pigmentation (nose, lips, nails etc), that shows it is only more "pheomelanistic" individual than usual. Here are a couple of pics by photographer Lassi Rautiainen. They are wild Finnish wolves. Wolves of this color are found more frequently in eastern Finland and in Russia.
As you can see, they still have black pigmentation and black hair tips allthough their coat is overall more pheomelanistic.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...owwolfjump.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...owwolf-4-1.jpg

But whenever a canine has also brown skin pigmentation, it must be genotyped bb.

German Shepherds have brown/liver (bb), allthough it is disqualifying trait due to the standard aswell as white (ee) and blue (dd).
http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html
It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from alot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos.

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :

"It is possible for all breeds that are derived from GSD, to carry these genes.
But like someone allready said, it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning.
So it is more realistic to think that it derives from a lot more recent heritage; propably from last decades mixing with Saarloos."

(Hmmm..."last decades ??" - Yeah may be - but may be more probably in some of last one or two generations before...! )

But very good informations ! The whole posting is very interesting especially also what was told about "reddish" ( pheomelanistic ) wild wolves.

It´s quite probably that this kind of colour / pigmentation in nature is caused by inbreed in small population of wolves- like in Finland.

The pictures are great also ! I never saw photos of pheomelanistic wolves, ( and in comparison to normal coloured ones !) ...very well done !:thumbs

Originally posted by Nebulosa:
"...but that maybe all the pups of one litter does not belong to the same father, in this case im not thinking about the possibilitie of cheating but remembering that the same litter can have 2 or more fathers depending on the ovulation of the female and when the male covered, also that we all know that wolfdogs are scape artists, much more when you have crazy males and a female in heat."

That is completely true also.

Best greetings, Silvester

The wolves pictures are interesting but as said this is very different, those wolves are not bb, whereas the red puppies (not a single but 3) the breeder had are bb (more pictures at the bottom MLS) , CSV is told to be BB so this gives that Thalia and Sibir are mixes.

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

Hello, I am sorry to think this, all this extremely interesting, but you is tried to find an explanation scientific whereas the answer is very simple, like says it Indiananous, do not take to us for idiots, there was a contribution of Saarloos, quite simply, maintaining the only question is, which is amused to rot our so beautiful race in this way!!!
tomorrow I produce a CSW harlequin, you will find me an explanation??? let us be serious!!!! :roll:

martiou, I am not taking this lightly or taking you for idiots. But, while Thalia and Sibir are DNA-proved to be the parents of the red pups, than it follows that their parents are in question, and that is already an acusation of an individual breeder. The question is how to prove or disprove it, and that is hard... As I suggested, DNA typing of siblings and half-siblings, as well as Galiba, might show the level of relatedness and answer some questions. Meanwhile, looking into the allelle causing the color might or might not, clear it up a bit.

If it would be shown that both Sibir and Thalia are mixes and not pure CSW, than it of course would be a big scandal. Either way, red color is not accepted by CSW standard, so even if the two parents were proved to be pure CSW, their carrying the trait for red should be noted and kept in ming during breeding, and the red pups should not be used for breeding at all...

As I already said in my posting before this morning , I think it is VERY likely that martiou07 is right with his posting !

Because "...it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning." ( What Jennin Lauma told before.)

(Ok, it´s not 100 % sure that crossing with Saarloos is the reason - but close to this ! And much more likely than a spontanous mutation...or caused by inbreeding, like supposed by Saschia.)

Silvester, I would agree with you, if I was not involved in a study of a series of mutations that cause sudden cardiac death and that do occur spontaneously sometimes. Not often, but loss-of-function mutations do occur and if we cannot prove otherwise, we should keep it in mind. But I agree that looking into the crossing with SW is important, but very very hard to prove (and saying dog is not typical is not proof enough I am afraid, not at courts of law).

1) This Puppy is red, (and beautifull).
2) DNA proof show us that he is coming by Sibir x Thalia
3) Sibir and Thalia are not MIX and pure CSW, from a great CSW breeder

==> So we have now a new colour line... You just have to change the CSW Standard ...

Why looking for complicated issues?

Are you joking? :lol:

How did the red color come to be in the Saarloos? Aren't they also crosses of GSD and wolf?

Hmm,we can continue with this thread to new and new levels. I think in French is more of csw mix (with wolves too), I don´t mean kennel of Lorry, I am sure these mix will be on World show in French too.....What will be if these dogs with csw pedigree will winn? Breeders will mate with them, we will have mixes in much of next pups.......
Will we do DNA tests of all breeding wolfdogs in all world? When we will beggin with tests? (because now is late, we have mixes with csw pedigree)........
This is big problem and I think we can do nothing agains it.....

I press my fingers for Lorry, to found out why she has brown pigmented puppies. And I hope for calm and reasonable solution of everything.

Think about the CSW. Any speculations without proofs about many mixes harm the reputation of the breed.

I would like to believe in mutation, it would be great.
But as I wrote before, I think the mutation would be here much sooner.
But please, remember, even if there is SAV or anything else, we all know what craziness our dear pets are able to do because of the mating.

Let's calm down at this level, until we get some new proofs from Lorry. We talked a lot about genetics and many important and helping things were said.
Now, the next step should be done elsewhere and I hope, for the sake of my beloved breed, that this discussion will wait for proofs.

If it can get things done quickly, I am ready to scan licenses genetic Sibir, Thalia, and Rambo (do not forget that Rambo has the same father as Sibir)

- Maybe, Daniela will determine if there Saarloos in these 3 dogs ?
- Maybe, she can determine that Rambo is the brother of Sibir
(if not her brother, we can already get a more real things)

What amazes me still, in a subject if burning is that neither the owner Galiba nor the breeder of Sibir and Thalia, do not take the trouble to explain what might be happening ?

The hyposthèse a projection with an accidental Saarloos, is not a shame ..... Why not come and talk openly .... I know ..... this is the minimum ......

Because among all the MIX which already been accused (by inventing outright lines) and true MIX looming on the horizon, we will of course add me, I'll have you know my breeding becomes the shame of France's !....

Lorry, it is not your mistake. I wish more breeders like you are...........We are ready to help you with all what is possible.

I would really like to see a reaction from Edit and the owner of Galiba. Things happen and not always are the fault of the breeder, but in that case the breeder should be open about it and help solve the problem.

Lorry, you have my full support and I think I speak for more of us when I say that we are grateful that you spoke about the trouble (and I am sorry that you had this problem in the first place).
Shame is not making mistake, shame is when somebody lies about it (even if somebody lies about somebody else's mistake). I hope you will get a good solution for this problem.

No. In the fact they are mixes of different breeds and accoridng to different sources also nordic breeds (husky or malamute) are involed. They are "Wolfdogs" only on the paper.

Yes... But sometimes, stupid ideas can reveal a better way, the only hope is to find a way to resolve this problem.

French breeders ar not in quiet position. It is not easy for them to find a way, because their job is to sell us Puppies. They are inside the problem.

So us, simple owners as me, we are just the end of the chain, outside. So we ask you, in this universal forum, to do something. To help our clean Breeders as Nadia and Lorry, to get out them this witch hunt.

I fully agree with you: being just a "simple" owner helps keep the right perspective to dog issues ;)

My French is not good enough to follow the discussion on the French forum, but I don't see any witch-hunt here. On the contrary, people are trying to brainstorm possible reasons of this 'anomaly' and are grateful to Lorry for bringing out into light a problem that can eventually save the breed!

There is a saying: 'If someone doesn't know how to behave, he should behave decently'. IMHO it's very relevant here!

a thing of sure Lorry, we are not friendly, but you do certainly not be the shame of the French breedings, you speak about this problem whereas much would have hidden that…. now if you can to us poster various photographs of these dogs which you had, that would be very interesting. like seeing their evolution…

:lol: good joke Jet :lol:

As far as my understanding Saarloos also have as Margo says Nordic breeds in foundation. I think the earliest 'original' project was GSD x wolves but later additional breedings involved wolves outside of Europe as well as Nordic mixes. If so, I could easily see how a red Saarloos would be of similar coloration to red huskies.

so saarloos were similar to Tamaskans?

No... because Saarloos are still admittedly wolfdogs.... :lol:;-)

Some Saarloos have white masks like Nordic sled dog breeds. This is hard to believe to have come from GSD, and even harder to believe to originate from wolf...
So there are some coat color patterns in Saarloos, that question the officially stated origin of the breed (=GSD & European Wolf)

BUT, the brown (bb) coat color does exist in GSD (see my previous post), so it is possible that this color came into Saarloos from GSD's.

I have tried to find out more information about the brown color in Saarloos;
-when and where did it first occur?
-were any of the early stud dogs (GSD's) known carriers of the trait (brown themselves, or had brown in their lineage)?
--> I assume that it could be possible to trace back the early stud GSD lines to see if there were known brown individuals or not. :confused2
And if the brown gene (bb) where there from the beginning, it would most likely have been seen allready in the early Saarloos. If it showed up later in the game, then I think it is a sign of more recent heritage.

I'm sorry if this starts to go a little off topic...
I've once started a topic about this on the Saarloos section. I didn't get much answers there...
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16187

:fingers1 :lol:

Hi,

Personally I prefer the scientific point of view on this matter than the “Mixes possibility”...
I have some difficulties to understand why some big breeders, supposedly like Crying Wolf, “would do” mixes between Saarloos and CsV... and after that be oblige to cheat on their dogs pedigree... :roll:
I can understand (but don’t agree) why some “neo breeder” will be tempted to try this kind of thing... But one more time, why cheating after that?...
Best regards,
And my sympathy to you Lorry :)

So do I and I suppose, everybody here! Confirmation of this hypothesis would save a lot of trouble, costs, worries, efforts and maybe even some dogs' lives :( We should keep our fringers crossed when the DNA tests will be carried out.

That's exactly why some people suppose it might have been just an "accident". The question is, if the breeder didn't know about it (saarlos/CSV pups could be almost identical with CSV pups), or knew and deliberately cheated on pedigrees. I prefer to belive in the first hypothesis. The wilingness to cooperate in order to research and explain the problem would be the best test for the affected breeders/owners honesty and goodwill and, in the long run, would be in their best interest :|

We know by experience in the breed (high inbreeding level) that the probability have to be ultra low, IMHO in this case with all associated problems around, this should not be researched as first evidences.

This is difficult as if you don't fit a current research program, universities won't put a cent on this. So right now the effort should be put on DNA parentage testing.
Won't breeding clubs, with help of law(?), could help going in this direction ? Implication regarding number of offspring is scaring...

An interesting part in the paper, the fact that the authors did not consider for "Grackle" case a de novo mutation possibility could show their thinking about the time scale of those kind of mutation is not so short:

"It is not sur-prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in
black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back."

How many generations in CSW? I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

Between the creation of the breed and nowadays, there was at least one bottleneck, maybe several, that caused high relatedness in the breed. Such a visible trait, as the red/brown color is, would be noticed before, if it came from GSD, no?

And de novo mutations do occur all the time, we just usually do not see them. Maybe the authors of the paper did not take them into account just because the dog that had the unusual allele, was related to brown animals in just a few generations back. And may it was a mistake not to take possibility of de novo mutation, but it actually was not the scope of the paper to ponder the origins of the mutations, but only their presence and mechanism of their action.

But, the testing for the color allele would say a lot I think, so that's the fastest way to get any answers regarding Thalia and Sibir right now. If they do not find the mutations tested nowadays, that will tell us something. If they find the one that is also present in SAV, that tells us something too. If they find two different mutations, that again tells us a lot.

But this is not the point, the point is to know if the line is clean or not (blaming X or Y is another topic) and how to proceed for checks. In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.

Furthermore, those red puppies are only one of the "anomalies" we have in the line, I guess you saw some other pics Margo put. With the huge number of offsprings of this line, the impact in the breed as a whole is really important and should be investigated as best as possible the sooner possible.

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

Originally posted by elf :
"In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it."

Hmmm....interesting...!

Originally posted by saschia :
"I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers..."

Yeah, you are right - such breeder SHOULD BE able to do so, no question!

Hello friends. Is here somebody who has children of pair Moňa z Krotkovskeho dvora + Fallko Kollarov dvor? Or maybe we need pups from Moňa separatelly and Falko´s pups separatelly too.We will be happy about their DNA for help to explain what hapenned in Lorry´s kennel. Thank you.

Scientifically, there may be a reliable, to make comparative DNA with the genetic map of personal Crying Wolf Thalia (daughter of Mona and Falko) ??

If so, I thank in advance all those who have taken the step to want to help me understand :)

Merci Hanka de tous les efforts que vous faites et de votre soutien ...

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Attention, first of all I never said it was a male! I even pointed that, for what I could understand, it was a neuthered female of C.Keiser...
It was after the birth of the red pups, when I've warned Mr.capiez Frank by phone about Volos (among others) and he told me it was an male (neuthered)

Suite .....Après de longues recherches, j'ai retrouvé une photo où on apperçoit le chien (ou la chienne ?) en question en arrière plan de Sibir ....(photo datée de mai 2007, date à laquelle j'ai été le chercher)
Je ne parviens pas (comme déjà expliqué dans un précédent post à déterminer si c'est un mâle ou une femelle) mais c'est bien un saarloos roux !


Continuing.. After a long search I've found an photo where appear the dog in question at the background, behind of Sibir. ( the date of the photo is May. 2007).
I cant (as already explained in the previous post, to determine if that's an male or a female) but it's an red Saarloos.

I hesitated to put pictures, but lets go:

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...om/IMG/cw2.jpg

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...om/IMG/cw3.jpg

It's a male, you can see the testicle at the photo you posted.

knew I was not dreaming and that I had seen red Saarloos, from this breeder, I will not pretend to yesteryear, it is the same as your pictures (or even year) because I simply do not know ....

Moi je ne vois pas assez nettement des testicules pour affirmer celà........je préfère donc rester prudente....

I cant see quite clearly the testicles in this photo to say this, then I prefer remain cautious.

I think this photo can solve our problem. :lol:

This Saarloos is Dvorak de Louba Tar. Not sterilized at the time of the picture as you can see here (had offspring in dec 2007):

https://www.saarloosuvvlcak-miraja.cz/products/vrh-a/
http://saarloos.webnode.cz/products/...aarloosu-v-cr/

If Dvorak also had other Saarloos litters, is it possible for DNA test to be carried out on Saarloos offspring to find some familial ties to questioned Vlcaks?

For me a photograph is not enough .... it may be a track and it is in any case for evidence that I have not told anything, when I said that I had seen a Saarloos ..... but otherwise, only the results of a DNA test to be conclusive evidence to my eyes .....
or by comparing the DNA of Rambo, Sibir and Thalia, who was sent to Daniela
or with the help of people who have dogs, whose DNA can also be compared ....
is of course, with the consent of the owner Galiba (if it were to change his mind)
or concrete information from the breeder ....,

I do not know what basis of scientific research will be preferred and will get replies unassailable, but one thing is certain, I do no fies a photo to pretend that I have found irrefutable proof

En effet, sur cette photo grossie, je vois mieux .....

Nor me, I only told that we can see what should be an testicle at that photo, and that's why I guessed it's a male.
Even if what looks like a testicle could be several other things. :p
But well, Elf already found even the datas of the dog in question. :)

Hanka, remember my mail recently sent .....
Is it possible that Daniela comes into contact with the person who agrees to conduct such tests with his dog (she is a veterinarian, so no problem for it to make itself the levy in the rules)
In terms of lineage, it is a half brother Galiba (1/2 frères de Galiba) (with Falko in father) so very interesting for a reliable result

No Lorry you were not dreaming! I am sorry I did not notice your question before...
I did bring this SWH male to Edit...

The Saarloos breed is indead just like the Csw based on crossings between Wolf x GSD!
And since the start of the breed red and white pups did appear. Only with the red ones was also breeded. (in Holland this color red is mentionent as “forrest brown” )
And never were made official mixes with nordic breeds!

But maybe (like in all kind of breeds!!;-)) some breeders did cheat and did make “crossings” and did registrate like Saarloos.
SWH colors accepted by breed standard are: Light till dark wolfgrey, light till dark brown (forrest brown), light creme till white . Wolfgrey with black nose, forrest brown with liver color nose, white both color noses are accepted but liver color is to prefer.

A lot about colors of GSD you can find HERE (3 pages and also photo’s)
The saarloos database you can find HERE

The owner of one of the offspring of Fallko Kollarov dvor is willing to cooperate with DNA research :) Just contact me in private for more info.

Before I was thinking that F Crying wolf could have double parentage, now that we have more informations about a possible accident coming from an forest-brown Saarloos things changed a bit for me.
Dvorak, the brown Saarloos born in 2003 (according to the ShW stats), that turns impossible to F litter have double parentage.
We have S, V and Y Crying Wolf doing weird puppies, S born at 2005, V at 2006 and Y at 2007, all possible years to an accident happen if this Saarloos was there all this time, we could be sure that he was there in 2007 due the photo done by Lorry (???).

If it is so, then would be easier to take samples of these litters (specifically the pups which are showing this problem) and compare with the blood of Dvorak itself.

Probably easier said than done, unless Edit agrees to cooperate. :|

But possible to test if they are half siblings to Dvorek's known Saarloos litters, right? Because at the least they can't share dams.. Assuming they may cooperate.

Yes, I know, we can use his SAV pups too. But first we ask about help owners of csw. We prefer not mix to this problem other breeds.......
Thanks to people which contacted me with DNA of their dogs, it is nice.
I think it can be interest, if we can know what hapenned.......
If we will have more samples of DNA, we can know more info.
Daniela will do everything what is possible to research.

Thanks Hanka! You are right, that would be the best possible method. Thanks for your explanation.

if need moore example from dogs M z Krotkovskeho dvora only say I can send salive example from this line dogs who we have

Hello all, thanks to all offers of DNA from all people here. Daniela is so sorry, she can´t continue with this researching, for her personal reasons.

:( That's really sad :(

are others laboratory and others people who can due this.
Only mas make testing plan and make this

There are also two other genetic "issues" to consider... the first is spontaneous mutation - for additional information on this Google "Panda SHepherds" - pure West German highline GSDs that produced white-patched pups - one parent had a spontaneous mutation for this and it is currently being studied by University of California. ANother is "Chimerism" - Google "Chimera" where unexpected DNA plays a role - brindle colored horses, for instance, and it has been seen in humans, where a woman gave birth to her SISTER'S offspring (the baby she concieved and gave birth to was NOT genetically related to her but to a "sister" whose genes she carries as the "sister" was absorbed by her in the fetal stage).
Just because wild wolves, GSDs, etc. do not display mutations of color does not mean they do not exist in the gene pool.
Remember all dogs descend from the wolf, so there is the potential for anything in the genetics. Pushed-in faces are not seen in the wolf or GSD but is seen in wolf descendents like the Bully breeds, showing that wolf genetics are indeed a maleable "material" and likely to have spontaneous mutations from time to time...

a little streng when this "mutation" have not only mutation in collor and pigment but and in anatomy :twisted:

Good Work Hanka !!!

Very best regards / Mikael

Yes that is extreamly strange ;-) And only the DNA will / can tell us way, where and when :p

Very best regards / Mikael

Hmmm... And what is her personal reasan if I may ask :| ???

She do not want to find out, where when and how :twisted: ???

Best regards / M

Mikael, you must ask her personally....

Thanks! :) the Panda Shepherds case is really interesting!... :o