Russian Army Wolfdog Projekt
 

Hello a video on Russian army wolfdogs under training...
Can anybody that knows Russian tell us all more about this ???

When did the projekt start and so on... ????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YB_v0dCVpU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXoYb7tnugQ&fmt=18

Are they making there own CsV :lol: ???

Very best regards / Mikael

I realy like the jumping Wolfdog in video nr 1 ;-)
But I´m happy my CsV do not do it :lol:

Best regards / M

Don't write it loudly....:evil_lol

http://perm.canislupus.ru/

Google Chrome does an OK job translating.

Aaaa thank Ed

So they started before 1999 and are now at generation F3, if I understand it all right...

Looks like they want there own Vlcak´s, but are to proved to buy from CZ or SL :p

But as it looks to me, are own amateur trained CsV are both better at protection and search than what we can see these military dogs do, after military training...
And CsV are lighter and maybe also faster...

Best regards / Mikael

Hey Mikael, how are you ?

Originally posted by Mikael:
"But as it looks to me, are own amateur trained CsV are both better at protection and search than what we can see these military dogs do, after military training...
And CsV are lighter and maybe also faster..."

I think it´s not surprising what you are telling - just because of longer breeding and may be more strict selection what was made in the first time with CsV.
( You said before that russian "Vlcak" have now about F3 generation.)

And you don´t know how F3 generation of CsV did behave - like Rep may be. You can only compare TODAYS CsV with these russian animals.

It´s easy do understand that the longer and the more strict the selection is, the better results for ability to training you will get.

Have a nice sunday !

Greetings, Uli alias Silvester

Ok, I just had a look in my little "archiv" in my pc - and i found this video

( only in German language , sorry)

http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-33905.html

Hope it´s interesting for people here on English forum too.

ehh... some info from russia :rock_3
i know some people working there in perm with these hybrids. and i can say for sure that all you see is just pr and nothing more. they only "suck" money from government. these animals don't work, only 2 or 3 (you can see on their official site all, but not working exams, yes, only stories about their perfect work). others have problems with agression and shyness. we only meet some cute photos and dithyrambs in the internet. nothing more. i personally tried to invite them to some working competition after they put doses of shit on csv on their forums. nothing. and it happens all the time, the only answer is "this is very serous military project, we are restricted to travel". one more thing. for the simple reason that they do not work, but eat money from the state, they report that their experiment is aimed at fixation of gene... of loyalty to human (yes, they found this gene, haha). so i think further comments are not required :lol::lol::lol:
may be you don't know, we have many wolves here, very many people which want to make money from nothing and even more stupids ready to spend they money for such thngs. that's why we have not only "volkosobs" in perm, but also wolends (laika x wolf) which cost more than csv, russian wolfhounds (canadian x malamute)... by the way, these wolfdounds already killed a child in petersburg...

ah, how i could forget it. on of their points is - volkosobs live until 30 years. yes, they say it seriously. let's wait, 25 years later we'll see who was right :lol:

Thanks Silvester and Morian :)

Morian... What is the name of the (breed) in the video and what are they mixes of ???

Best regards / Mikael

all 3 videos are about volkosobs from perm, this crazy military experiment... they all are gsd/wolf mixes of different generations. you can find their so called pedigrees on their site (link was given here earlier). i don't know how many gsds they used, but it was only 1 she-wolf najda. so f2 etc have super strong inbreeding.
example (taken from their site) is in attachment

Thanks again :)

Russian BIG wolves was used, right ???

But this are just military wolfdogs, not for private owners :? Or am I wrong ???

Are they planing more lines and to try to get them to be working dogs in the future ??? Or will there just be a few at this military base ???

Very best regards / Mikael

PS, BTW, I´m only interested in info, not a dog :lol:...DS

russian normal wolves, i think :)
also i think they can sell them to private owners too... unfortunately. about lines etc. - yes, they have plans, but nothing more. but i can't share the info i have from people which worked with them, it would be just a low blow :lol:

In 2003, I met one man who took part in that test and he told the experiment was over.
Big problems whit character and healty.

big problems and... big money ;-) they still continue their "work" and still try to advertise themselves in russia :| nobody saw no outstanding result (i mean working abilities), that's why they started to tell new legends about 30 yars long life, gene of loyalty and other fish stories from the same kind.

I did find this one to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkaqO...eature=related

What do they say Morian :p... Just kidding :lol:

Best regards / Mikael

ahhaha advertising of non-fci mixes on wd! must i ban you? :lol: (kidding too)

the only interesting thing said is about motivation of dogs and wolfdogs, she told that it differs very much, how dogs make tricks for food etc. 90% is about how cool they are. by the way, it was iterview with olga druzhinina, one of the main persons in this experiment. she started to tell about 30 years :lol: i spoke with her many times on some forums and even by skype. every time after my question "why do you want to create new breed if it already exists?" she used to start long and boring discussions about csv - not able to work, shy etc. but every time we had to finish the discussion with another question - have you ever seen one? :lol: i don't want to compare csv and volkosob (as minimum because i didn't have it), but imagine - how many dogs are on their site? for so long time (and so much money and attention) it's not too optimistic number. how many of them passed even most easy exams? 2 or 3 maybe. how strong inbreeding is - did you see information about any health test on their site? i didn't. only one paper where they compared biochemical indices of dogs and hybrids (and found out that their dogs are not healthy). it's all looks like a bad joke, nothing more. so much ado about nothing.

ahh! thankyou..only saturday my friend and i (tassle) were watching a you tube clip about this but it was in russian! grrr!

i couldnt understand why they were trying to breed what already exists :?

does anyone know of the experiment of crossing siberian huskys and jackals for use as 'sniffer dogs'? is this project still ongoing? (seemed an odd idea to me)

Thank you Mikael and Morian, it's really an interesting thread. It's amazing how wolf hybridation can sugest that much interest... Personally I'n really glad with my pure breed dog ;)

This is probably why they're doing it. Coolness = more attention = more money.

yes, exactly :)

Sulimov dogs, I read somewhere that now they are Lufthansa's dog, someone know more about it?

I found this video on youtube about Sulimov dogs - have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6Y7pBN7toE

Sulimov was trying to create best sniffing dog for security work on Russian airports , he was working for Aeroflot. I don´t know whether Lufthansa here in Germany are using such dogs too - but I´ve never heard of this.

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

ah! i know this, but at us we call this god "shalaika" :lol: from "shakal" (jackal) ana laika.

Hey Morian , great nickname - "shalaika" .... I like it.

But what about telling them better "shalalaika" - sounds more melodically, right ?:happy

(And it has a little more affinity to Russian folklore...!)

Ok, and how we´re going to call our race now ? May be "wosheps" ( from wolf and shepherd dog ) would be a fine nickname ??

Or better " Shepwos" ? :grins

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

NICE VIDEO Uli :)

Best regards / Mikael

Shalalika and Sulimov are different dogs, Sulimov started that project mixing Laponian Herder and golden jackal. Since jackals are best sniffers of all canines. 25 Sulimov dogs working on russian airports...
BTW i dont know why all of you are against making new breeds like CsW, who knows maybe they make something that fits better for military purpose then CsW. Be happy with your CsW's and let others do what makes them happy too :D

Konstantin I agree absolutely with you. Sometimes I think csw owner especially breeders are jealous if someone likes other wolfdog breeds ... In the light of 400 recognized breeds and 400 non FCI recognized breeds it makes no sense to be against other wolfdog breeds. The "invention" of other breeds will never stop because the world turns around and at every second somebody will invent new things - and of course create new dogs breeds. It is always a matter of selection if dogs turn out to be good ones.

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de

People are not even able to breed properly the "over 500 already recognized FCI breeds", some of these FCI breeds are under risk of disappear or having huge problems to solve, people cant cope with only over 500 breeds, accept new breeds would be surely the wrong choice.

CzW is a working breed and was bred for militairy purpose as well, if they dont fit this standard because "lack of something", go and select respecting the breed standard, it's much easier than create a new breed and put several dogs in the world as "experiment" for "try to make something new".

Of course i'm not talking here of all breeds, because there are several breeds which already exists, are historical animals and arent recognized yet due the FCI rules, but of the "new-age dog breeds" which are more like "mix breed X with breed Y and you get F1 of Z Breed".

1. now it's the same ;-)
2. "working", not working.
3. i'm totally agree with paula. people can not keep already existing breeds' types, there is no need to create anything new...

btw i'm not jelous, i don't breed csv. i only trust my eyes...

http://www.krestianin.ru/articles/8919.php

is this enough? 8)

It's not, i am from Serbia but doesn't mean i know Russian :D both our languages have similiar words, etc... but i dont understand russian. I understood that in text you linked they mention name shalaika , i think i explained that Sulimov dog and shalaika are different breeds. Sulimov dog is dog with best tracking and sniffing abilities and they were selecting since 1975 and in 2002 they entered in airports to do their job...
They are working dogs !!!

you can use google translate
and sorry, but i live here and get info from "first hands", so... :|

So far dog breeding is not a professionell work under the eyes of a biologist you will always find bad breeding in every dog breed. But sorry, for 98 % of dog owners in the world it is a hobby and not a job! And who thinks to be god to decide who is allowed to breed and who not?

The real problem are the people who are looking much to close to have, hold or create "pure" dog breeds.

Please look in nature. Nature is full of hybrids! http://www.boston.com/news/science/a..._with_coyotes/
http://www.timberwolfinformation.org...s/wolfnews.htm Even the east wolf population in the US are mostly Hybrds. Hybrids of wolves and coyotes and the coyotes are hybrids out of coyote and dogs! Genetic will explain us the world. So an open mind for life is always good and helps...

I hope the second link will work. Otherwise go to www.timberwolfinformation.org North East 03. june 2011

Christian

"The genetic techniques used in the recent study allowed researchers to estimate that hybridization, in most cases, happened when humans were hunting eastern wolves to extinction, Kays said. “The few remaining animals could find no proper mates so took the best option they could get,” Kays said."


Because hybridization is happening in nature it does not turns it "natural" or "right", the animals are doing it probably because they have no choice, also because these hybrids fits well in the new enviroment, its an adaptation due human changes in the nature, if there were no human impact in their enviroment forcing them to interbreed, it probably wouldnt happen.

That's why the mean topic of all this is about the orign of these canids.

I dont think you're able to enter in this topic and talk about "new dog breeds and if it should be accepted or not" when you clearly show here that you have no idea about it.

i honestly do not understand the connection between what is happening in nature and thoroughbred breeding of dogs :ehmmm maybe this idea would look better in any topic about mixes? :D

@Morian, what do you suggest are russian wolfdogs? Mixes?

@Nebulosa, it seems to me that you do not know that in nature are not to count hybrids - hybrids of plants in first row and f course hybrids of animals!

It is one opinion if Kay says that because there are not enough wild wolves, single of them interbreed with dogs. That happened in germany too in 2003. It happened in italy and of course in all other countries. But there are not so many wolf hybrids as people could belive. But there are some. So I wanted to tell you, even in nature "new breeds" are coming - and going. I do not see the reason why people should not be allowed to breed new breeds? And of course not if these are natural dogs close to the father of all dogs, the wolf. I can not understand why especially people here in this forum are so narrow minded! Sometimes I think, you people are afraid that you will not find new good owners for your dogs because potential interesting people have a bigger choice in wolfdogs and decid to take not a csw. If you really are convinced of your dog breed so why are you afraid not to convince people to get a csw?

It would be better if some people would not breed so many dogs and not every heat cycle of the female.

It seems to me that some of you are blind how life works. As I already wrote in every second someone is inventing a new car, clothes, drinks, meals, houses etc pp. Without these people we would not have internet, which starts 20 years ago! So why stop in inventing new dog breeds? If everybody would think like you, we wouldn´t have any dog breed and of course not the csw - but only tame wolves! If Karel Hartl would think like you, we would not have any csw.

Christian

I agree with Christian on this subject. I have been arguing about this same issue many times in differect occations.
Who is to say that the dog breeds we have today have the right to be here (and the creators of those breeds had the right to create them), but no new ones will ever have the same right again? And why some people think like that?!
-Because there are allready too much terrible breeds that suffer from horrible illnesses and/or too narrow gene pool etc?
Well, I do not think that is a valid argument. I would rather see a hundred new, HEALTHY build and stable minded (suitable for the purpose they were created) breeds instead of some of these older ones that exist today and can barely breeth or move, not to mention breed normally.

What I think is terrible is that there are breeders who produce puppies like factories, and sell them to anyone who are willing to pay the price. And breeders who do not care for selective breeding for health and temperament, but instead they breed just about anything that sells. -Usually it is something that looks beautiful or cute or funny..
And the poor animals suffer.

In my opinion the biggest problem in dog breeding is that it has started to resemble racism.
We should go back to the old times when we had different types of dogs for different purposes instead of closed breed populations. Or atleast we should start once again to put more value on the purpose of every breed, and breed more for function instead of only beauty.

But while I do not understand the negative attitude towards developing new dog breeds, I have to note, that as it comes to wolfdogs as working dogs, my opinion still stands as I have wrote it here before in another topic:

When creating a new working breed, I do not think that it's necessary or wise to add fresh wolf blood. I think that there is a big enough population of dogs with different characteristics to make a suitable mix for different working purposes. The wolf has many unsuitable characteristics that makes it a poor working companion for any human purposes compared to an average dog. -Shyness is one of the biggest issues, but there are many more.
The dogs we have today were selectively bred and domesticated a long time ago. Why to start over?

Of course wolfdogs have their own place under the sun, and of course they should also always be bred selectively! -But for what purpose they should be bred, and more importantly, for what purpose it is reasonable to try selectively breed wolfdogs these days?

There is enough work in trying to selectively breed wolfdogs that can successfully live a quality "pet life" in human society.
In my opinion, with the large variety of different dogs in the world with all their different features, it is a waste of time and recourses to try breeding hard core working canines out of wolfdogs.
-It would be much more effective, and alot faster project with fewer unsuitable individuals as side products, to mix dogs with suitable traits to create working dogs.
Why waste decades to produce a homogeneous stock of suitable wolfdogs for some military/police work, when we allready have superior dogs for the job?
The authorities will most likely continue using the type of dogs they have allready found to be perfect for the jobs, and the people who compete in different dog sports will most likely continue buying dogs that excell in those sports.

Most wolfdogs end up as pets (though a little more high maintenace than average dogs) for active people who love outdoor living and who are fascinated by the wolfiness in their dogs. -The "wild" and natural looks, the intependent character and the intense body language, to mention a few features often heard listed as reasons for owning a wolfdog.
The most important thing for the majority of wolfdog owners is that the animal is capable of living a healthy, stress free life with people. And I would say that it is allready a big enough challenge for all wolfdog breeding to be able to respond to those criteria.
To try to jump into the boots of an average German Shepherd, Border Collie or Labrador, would be such a challenge that I really can't see the point at the moment. -Maybe then if we would find ourselves in a situation where we have completely (genetically) ruined/destroyed all dogs in the world. Then we might need to take that step back for getting strong genes from wild populations. But concidering the extinction rates of most large carnivores, I'm pretty sure that if we'll find ourselves in the situation mentioned above, there will no longer be wild wolf populations to thrive the fresh genes from... :(

Morian:
Do you know what is the situation with this program now?
I visited their website and it says (in Russian) that the program is over.
What happened to the wolfdogs, and does they still have some of them in service?

as i understood from other forums, everything is ok (with the project and wolfdogs), it is just their personal showdown, some people don't want to keep this site up-to-date anymore etc.

killed child
 

russian wolfhounds (canadian x malamute)... by the way, these wolfdounds already killed a child in petersburg...

when was this?

Yes, I would also like to know more about this. When did this happen, and is there any news links about this?

Are these the animals in question?

http://huskygo.karelia.ru/en/partrace/Ivanovich/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owG2CcXHbZc


...And doesn't Russian Wolfhound mean Borzoi?

I Googled this in Russian, and found this:

http://www.fontanka.ru/2009/09/07/031/

Google Crome translator helps ;)

Borzoi is Russian Greyhound ;)

But still for some reason when I Google Russian Wolfhound, all I get is sites about the Borzois.
Nothing related to wolfdogs / "hybrids". :ehmmm


...btw, off topic: I love Borzois :)
And also Salukis.