CLC mixes in France and Finland (subject on French forum)
 

Hello,

a subject on dogs produces in France has to start, a member of the forum required that is opinion other stockbreeders more tested in order to know their opinions.

I leave you the link, so as of time you want to take part in it, all the opinion are good to take ;)

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16432

try to put of with dimensions the various remarks from some which are frankly except subject…. :roll:

if those dogs are pure or not only an specific DNA test will show, the fact is that they should not be used on breeding as they are not tipical according to the breed standard.

Does not matter if someone find it wolfish or not, even because "be wolfish" often have more to do about "what your imagination about the wolves said" than "what the wolves really are", there is a breed standard which should be respected, people are suppose to be breeding Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, a DOG BREED recognized by FCI at group 1, remember that.

Hi,

very interesting thread indeed...
I thought it's already known for quite a while that there are wolf crosses and crosses with so called American Wolfdogs around in France, registered as CSW's.
They've already produced (not only in France) FCI registered pups.
I saw them in several dog shows.
Paula, it's not the phenotype but the genotype which is interesting.
Forget about the breed standard...

Michael

Genotype produce phenotype, both are connected even if the genotype often hold some features hidden, what can genotype produce at phenotype can be full shown in an animal mantained in good conditions as can stay hidden or be changed in an animal mantained in bad condition or which had some kind of problem.

Im not talking here about defects but about typical or not according to the breed standard, when you see this dog you say "it is not a CzW", independant of his genotype this dog should not be used in a dog breed as something wrong happen or something is hidden, like fake pedigrees and mixage.


Without the breed standard and without dogs which follow it, there will be no breed at all.
If people does not want to breed typical dogs according to this standard, then they should change of breed.

---EDIT----
Oh, sorry, I didn't got the irony first and I've already jumped in the neck.
I'm getting traumatized with wolfdog people when we talk about breed standard and selection. :lol:

---EDIT²---
I will let it here as it will be informative to some people

I know what you mean, but I've seen many purebred CSW's looking much more untypical compared with this animal we're talking about. Many!

So what do you think, does this animal http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10293
look typical according to the standard?

To me this animal looks bloody perfect according to the breed standard.

And, hand on your heart, do you think this animal is a purebred CSW?
With all the ancestors you can see in his pedigree?

Michael

Me too, believe me.:cry:

Michael

He does not have the features we could expect comming from this line and from these parents, also everyone who used similar line didnt got such dogs then something is wrong.
Being CzW coming at his bases from a mix between Carpatian Wolf and German Shepherd, I dont wonder that if you mix an European wolf with a CzW you will get very standardized dogs looking like pure blood animals, pricipaly if you see that the standard itself requires something very similar to a carpatian wolf.
I also not wonder why he did such mix and why it was mate with C'pouchka, a dog which CzW and Carpatian wolf had pass far away.
As Genetic is not like matematic, his intentions failed.

I not know if i help you much. I not know french dogs from pictures but for me is not real wolfdog. But i can be mistake.
But i can tell other what i know very much. you can put "mix" in all dogs from litter of dog in italy:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11911
you have wrong information in database. because is not real pedigree. mother is wrong in database because true mother is wolf from Czech Soukupova kennel and not female you write in database. all litter is mix and not CLC.
if you not believe you can make DNA test but make it official because finland is third world and all cheat are possible. same with breeder - if you ask she for blood she will cheat you so make it normal way.
brother of Dik Passo del Lupo is by same breeder name in france and it is not czech wolfdog. you can see it good on photos.
i think if someone buy mix from finland is possible other dogs are mixes too. for me too much different from wolfdog. not normal wolfish but mixes like american wolfdogs. very much different.

Perhaps for the CsV which appears to draw people who like to do unauthorized back-cross breeding, DNA verification of pairings should be required. :|

I do not know if there is such a thing available within foreign kennel clubs (to show up on pedigree), but there is DNA verification on AKC and UKC in the USA available.

lupis, person all the time revealing others' lies and faults must be ideal. i hope you are ;-)

Any name of the wolf ???

Best regards / Mikael

And one can also wonder way there are NO photos of the Puppy´s / offspring´s ???

/ Mikael

Here is one photo of Wolfsirius Dakota

http://forumbilder.se/images/e4201195106PM39c6.jpg

I know, it is bad quality, but it was the only one I had ;-)

Very best regards / Mikael

It is in Sweden and Belgium, but that do not really helps if we get mixes into the country, as the DNA test only show if the dogs that is tested are the parents of the new born litter or not...

But if more country’s or FCI require the same, that would be the end for mix-breeding whit wolves whiteout a permit from FCI / the original CsV clubs.

And I will talk to and ask the Swedish Kennel Club to forward the question to the FCI !

Best regards / Mikael

Hmmmm, No... Probably not :roll: ???

I not know name but it true. i show you something and you will see i not lie - is 100% true:

on breeder page you can see wolf of who is mother of litter and you can see alone it is same look and 100 percent same family.

you will not see because today breeder Wolfsirus after my post delete all photos of mother wolf of she fake litter.
maybe someone has copy?

I want to say only to Wolfsirius breeder: now everybody know 100percent that you are cheater because other case you have no reason to delete all your photos with your wolf.
now i understand why you are so shy - is because Wolfsirius Dakota is 100percent copy of your wolf female and is not czech wolfdog but mix. and finish pedigree is fake!
and you litter is 100percent fake litter too with fake papers.

thank you for making all people sure

Lupis, if you saw a wolf on wolfsirus website why the hell did you not copy it?

I do not believe you a word. You are a virtual master of desaster. Nobody knows your real name, where you live and if you have a csw, wolfdog or wolf. Or did you mentioned it in the last month?

Christian

Cheating was/is common in horse world. Like it also did become more and more common in dog world when somebody could earn money with this . (show, export)

A lot of breeders will cheat for money...

And there are unfortunately also veterinarians who will do a lot for money... give big breeders signed health certificates before a litter is born, change chips, make secret teeth reconstructions, give wrong info about identity .... (and these things are really not only rumors!!)

Why somebody is surprised when all this horrible things also are happening in wolfdog world?

But personal I don't want to blame any specific breeder, nor I want deny any message of unknown member on this forum ....

I only can advice: think, be alert, always compare with standard of a breed, open your eyes and ears for other opinions, and make your own conclusions and opinions :rock_3 :)

Is this the reason why several large kennels that produce prolific numbers of puppies each year are taken out of the "Breeders Listing" on this page? Like Wolfsirius (Finland), Louba-Tar (France), Louve Blanche (France) and Passo Del Lupo (Italy)...

Yes, of course... But what if one makes a mistake :?

And what will we do in 30 years when there are mixes in almost every line... I think we must ackt NOW, and get FCI to demand DNA verification !

For me they can mix breed al they want, just do not register the dogs are PUREBREED !!!

Very best regards / Mikael

Or, maybe because they do not put up any photos, which is a demand to bee on the Breeders Listing ?

Very best regards / Mikael

Dear Fenris,

you named them (nearly...) all.

Michael

I am a big supporter of DNA registration of every dog in all breeds! :)
But.... when (like in my country) every owner can send a swab of their dog for this, it is not of any use for me personal...
So it would be GREAT if FCI would demand DNA verification of a dog of an independant veterinarian of every dog :)

Because I also know "big breeders" have mostly a "special relationship" with their vet.. I would prefer that FCI and every national breeding organisation would make an agreement for all countries with vets who are alowed to check identity and make the identification :)

Yes, that is a problem to I think...

I will do my DNA verification by blood at the Swedish Board of Agriculture, District Veterinary ;) Owner is Swedish Government :lol:

And, Nop I do not know them at all :p

Best regards / Mikael

It's the same for DNA testing in the US - and puppies don't have to be tested, only imported dogs (however, AKC can make random visits to breeders and do DNA tests on any dogs at the facility, but this is very, very rare). I wish the FCI would follow your "orders" above, and require the AKC to do the same in order to continue their reciprocity agreement. Things could get very bad for the breed if mixes were ever created/imported here, and we achieved full recognition. :?

for my part, being right a small breeding family; idea of tests DNA, I ever was frankly for because I am the quiet aware, however it appears as an obviousness that we must turn to this option henceforth…

For France, idea of obligatory test DNA, I believe unfortunately that this is not for tomorrow............ :roll:

In their actual form DNA test are completely useless -at least in France-, they are too easy to cheat.

I hope you're meaning here only D litter, not C'pouchka, F'eyra & co, which are far of what CzW standard ask for.

I mean D-litter de la Louve Blanche and D-litter Wolfsirius, but the other dogs mentioned are not that far from the standard and definitely nearer to the standard than many purebred CSW's I know.

Please, stopped speaking about Diamon, it is realy the son of Volos and Yvanka.
He looks like a lot has her sister Darwen and they are the truths CzW

Diamon and Darwen
http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2011/01/21.260.jpg

Darwen
http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2011/01/21.258.jpg

http://fotoforum.fr/photos/2011/01/21.259.jpg

Yes - they were removed because on the list we post only breeders which work on Wolfdog.org. This site base on reciprocal help - breeders help us to builds the database. We help the breeders to advertise their kennels on different ways.

If a breeder want only to use Wolfdog for selling the puppies but gives nothing back (do not send the information) it gets removed.

It apply for all the kennels listed here with one exception: Passo del Lupo. This kennel was removed because it is breeding mutts (non breeds - not purebreed Wolfdogs) - such kennel are also not listed on Wolfdog.org.

One more fraud made by the Finish President of the CzW Club - one more illegal litter made and registered in Finland...
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmK...961%2F14&R=332
(litter of mixes with false pedigrees - puppies registered and chiped first 6 months after they are born)
I'm curious when the police will start investigation also there...since the Finish Kennel Club is unable to solve this problem with violation of the FCI regulations.... :?