DM Testresults
 

Last week I did receive the DM test results of Paco and Atlasz and both owners did give permission to publish the results.
Also these 2 males are Carriers.

So on this moment these official DM test results are known:

• Justine Stella Atoi de Louba Tar - Affected
• Male X - Affected (the owner does not want to publish the name of the dog yet)
• Male X - Carrier (the owner does not want to publish the name of the dog yet)
• Hogan Sky van Hagia Sophia - Carrier
• Chunami from Bandit's World - Carrier
• Phylax Paco van de Ursidae-Stee - Carrier
• Atlasz Cannus Lupus - Carrier

Also several other CsW's were tested, and the owners wait for the results.

This list with test results is not any reason for "panic"!
But it is clear that DM exists in CsW breed in several lines and countries.

That is why it is useful to test more CsW's for DM!
And again: not any dog needs to be excluded for breeding!

On lecture last weekend about DM of Dr. Paul Mandigers (neurologic specialist) was also mentioned that it would be a disaster for a breed when DM carriers would be excluded for breeding.

Thanks again for all you hard work Mijke :tard

Thanks to you many dogs will not have to suffer !

Best regards / Mikael

Good post. Thanks for sharing - it's good to know that there are breeders who care about testing for and limiting DM in CSVs.. as the breed is still in its early years, I do believe good control can provide a healthier future before DM becomes too wide spread or causes more dogs to suffer.

Yep. I hope the two active dogs are not used in breeding unless they are phenominal in every other aspect - and then only breed to a truly normal / normal dog.

Carriers can be bred - just breed them to N/N dogs and the puppies will, at worst, be carriers. The breed is small enough that with some monitoring of this we might be able to eliminate DM from the breed (yes, it will take a while).

DM
 

Hello,
can someone explain me what clearly is DM?
It is a short "word" for what genetic disease exactly?
Thank you very much.

A few links on it:

http://www.fredlanting.org/2010/02/t...athy%e2%80%9d/

http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm

OFA test:
https://secure.offa.org/cart.html

It's short for Degenerative Myelopathy.

Test results DM from Italy
Arimminum Andromeda N/N FREE
Arimminum Storm N/N FREE
Arimminum Naboo N/N FREE
Layla Zlata Palz N/N FREE
Anish Pura Gioia N/N FREE

That's awesome!

:thumbs For testing all your dogs !!! And congratulations one the results !!!

Best regards / Mikael

I have ordered my DM tests from www.offa.org - USD$65 - soon I will have results for Anthea and Wasabogoa, and after for Hronec and Jovice - I have my fingers crossed! Really glad to see people are testing! It's really nice to see people from Europe are also using this organization - normal results are automatically posted, and owners have the choice of submitting abnormal results (it's not required).

Congratulations Sarka! And thank you!

Marcy

Did you used a FTA card or you sent a blood sample?
This price is much more acessible for me, and with the FTA card everything gets more easy for long trips. :rock_3

Hey Paula!

I have only just ordered the tests (they will come by mail). They are FTA - using the saliva/cheek cells. Shipping was included with my order - but maybe it is different to a different country. There is one owner from Germany who has used this test, and is listed in the database - clear results. :o Maybe they have more details on ordering internationally. I ordered the test from this link:
https://secure.offa.org/cart.html

I wish the same kind of test was available for dwarfism...that's a very expensive test for me, I think, to send blood to Europe. :oops:

Let me know if I can help you!

Marcy

Marcy - please let us know when you get the results so we know if we need to test Luna or not. If I remember correctly it didn't take long from ordering the test to getting the results.

Will do! ;-)

Arimminum Wakan N/N free
Arimminum Odette N/N free

How the test can be made? Alternatives...

Also

Arimminum Wasabogoa = Free
Anthea od Vlci Skaly = Free
A Galomy Oak = Carrier
Taabernakkelin Hronsek = Carrier or affected (not official, but produced at least 1 carrier in my A litter with Anthea od Vlci Skaly)

It's a blood or saliva (FTA card) genetic test - there are no alternatives. One option is to order the test from this website:
https://secure.offa.org/cart.html

The cost is US$65 + small cost to ship the test card overseas and back - the same weight and size as a standard letter. This test uses saliva, not blood, so it doesn't need the same amount of careful preservation of blood. If the results are normal, they are posted publicly in the offa.org database. If the dog is carrier or at risk/affected, it is the owner's decision to post the results.

Are there other companies that do the test? In Europe?

Laboklin (www.laboklin.de) does.

Another result from Italy

Arimminum Rihanana Of Syria

Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N = FREE

The first DM result from Poland ( by LABOKLIN) :

EURY z Peronowki
Genotyp N/N = Free

I have test results (Laboklin)

Ave Tajga Arimminum N/N
Anne Lee Srdcerváč N/N
Amore Mio Srdcerváč N/N

Me too (Laboklin):
Delan van Hiemrod N/N

More DM test results you can find HERE

people, tell me please how do you send blood to germany, is there some special post? :? stupid question, but i asked at us and all post companies answer that they don't send bio materials :cry:

I sent a buccal swab (no blood). I used regular mail.

thanks. i thought they need blood. then it's ok, i'll test my guys and girl too.
ah, i forgot to ask. how much does this test cost?

At least our vet can take the sample and send it himself. Of course, for an extra fee 8) So you just need to come to clinics and then wait for the results.

we have clinic, i only thought that laboklin needs blood. and i still don't know what's the price :? i'm ready to go right now, but i need to know how much money does it cost. maybe more people from russia will test their dogs.

You are right Laboklin needs 2 ml EDTA blood! :)

Unfortunately in "dog world" and "breeding world of all kind of animals" a lot of people are cheating with info and pedigrees :evil:

That is why we in de past with Laboklin did make specific blood sample forms.
So we could be sure that all the info of CsW's was correct. :)
The veterinarian has to check the chip or tatoo (comparing with the number on the pedigree) and his to confirm and sign the blood is of that specific dog.

And then the vet has to send the tube with 2 ml EDTA blood (and the form and copy of the pedigree) to Laboklin.
The vet can send this by normal mail with normal stamp (in a common envelop with bubble plastic inside)

But.... like everyone, a lab wants to earn as much money as possible.... :rock_3
That is why Laboklin (like more commercial labs) also accept a swab that is send by an owner (without checking any chip or tatoo number!) :shock:
This is a pitty... because then it is possible to cheat :cry:

Don't misunderstand me: I don't say that people who did send a swab for DM test are cheating!!
I only try to explain why I think it is trickey to send swabs.

And that is why I prefer (and would like for future) every owner of a CsW to send 2 ml EDTA blood by his veterinarian for DNA tests :)
Then we always can be sure the results are realy of that CsW.

-----------------------------------------------------------
General info:

A blood sample from for DM test you can Download HERE (in pdf)

How it works and how you can send EDTA blood to Laboklin you can find HERE

The price for DM test is € 66,-

Last updates DM test results: Click HERE

Last updates Dwarfism test results: Click HERE

--------------------------------------------------------

shiiiiit... i knew... so it's pactically impossible to send blood from us to germany :| i say, i asked some posts about this and they all answer they they don't send bio materials... there is the only chance if somebody goes to germany... ehh :( but how muc does this test cost? i must know it, even +/-

ah, sorry, i"ve found the price :) and i think i must translate this info and publish it on russian forum, aha :)

:shock: on the number of dog tested, the number of carrying dog is relatively important, I think, it would be important indeed in testing…

My dogs more are not tested, but I will do it as soon as possible…

The veterinarian has to check the chip or tatoo (comparing with the number on the pedigree) and his to confirm and sign the blood is of that specific dog.
Taking of buccal swab is done in the same way, if the owner is responsible.

Do we have any informtion on how many of the Affected dogs actually end up developing DM symptoms? Or anyone studying this in the CsV?
Some veterinarians here say that 50% of German Shepherd Dogs are Carriers, 25% Normal and 25% Affected.
Of that 25% that are Affected, not all of them develop DM symptoms. Sometimes something else kills them young (like Gastric Torsion) and the GSD lifespan is not as long as the CsV.
So, if we extrapolate that CsV have similar statistics, shouldn't we see a LOT more symptomatic CsVs?
According to Dr. Clemmons, there are obviously other factors that cause development of DM symptoms - which they are now studying in GSD.
It is entriely possible that the wolf genetics mitigate development of DM symptoms somewhat, or that certain lines have a higher predisposition to developing symptoms - but is anyone collecting the information?
I ask, as here in the US our gene pool is small and given the above statistics, it is not necessarily an option to not breed 2 Carriers - in which case, some Affecteds may be produced. But if the amount of Affecteds that actually develop symptoms is low, than breeding 2 Carriers is an acceptable risk to keep our gene pool healthy.

4 of the 9 by DM test diagnosed DM/DM CsW's have already (or did have) physical problems. (not all affected DM/DM dogs have already the age for appearing physical symtoms)
Besides this, we know 4 very closed family dogs of these DM affected CsW's, that were euthanized based on diagnosed DM with physical problems (without tests results) .
(because we don't have official test results, they are not mentioned in the publication list)

Not all DM/DM dogs get physical problems!
For example the Universities of Bern and Missouri do study and resaerch about devellopping of DM and the appaearence of physical problems.

Sorry but I have to ask. Is there not the option to not breed if all you have is two carriers?

Charles Wilner

That was the reason why we talked Bern into doing a study on our breed.
Nobody knows on any breed at the moment because as far as I can oversee there is no breed where all dogs are tested so you cannot say how many dogs really are DM/DM. The numbers I could find about how many homocygotic carriers will get ill have been around 60 - 75%, though it might be also 100%
But there is a big consense about other things have to drop in or if it follows the human model there might be different forms of DM. In humans there are three different genetic forms and ways of heritage all causing the same symptoms.
We simply don´t know yet and we won´t know the next years.
That makes the research so important and it also makes it very neccessary that as many dogs as possible will get tested and send their blood to the research and keep somebody up to date when the dog gets ill (about everything not only DM!)

Ina

That is an option, if you have a large population. But if you have only a couple of animals on a continent, then the problems you'll get from inbreeding and bottleneck effects are much bigger than the ones you get by crossing known carriers.

It is a pity that the genetic tests are so expensive still, it would be best if one could test all the puppies, sell the one which are affected to owner who don't plan to breed, and adjust the environment so that the problems that will develop will be less hard or better adjusted for (like with high risk of hip dysplasia you can help by good supplements and targeted exercise).

Me too.. I think that's a good idea and would like to ask our breeder.. Does anyone know how long the results take to return?

within Germany one to two weeks.

Ina

Thank you!

Hi
congratulations for yor litter.
Could I kindly ask you if you have done the DMA tests on your dogs before mating them?

Thank you for your reply!
massimo

Your dogs too not see in DM testing list :) :p

Since when this is a reply?
Jasna has done test and is waiting for reply.
Oliver is 8 years old and will not reproduce anymore.
Echo is tested and is N/N, so any female he covers will give HEALTHY
puppies and MAXIMUM carriers (depending on mother)
Lunatica is castrated since 1 years old because she is HD/D.
As you can see, my ONLY dog who is reproducing at the moment is tsted and N/N negative.

Mine is a simple question, and knowing Kay's sister (K-lee, who has made puppies with Echo) is a carrier, I am making a very straightforward question.
I have a friend interested in this litter and maybe others too may be interested in this simple question.
Is that wrong?


Now, considering my reply to you was full and complete, in the joyful xmas spirit should I also ask if Jolly or Iran or Harmonia have been tested?

but this female Joly and Harmonia TOO NOT go TO Production like you Oliver :twisted:

I think she have good owner in spain and not mas have owner in others country. And all time can about all who interesing You quest in email way. Or not.

Exactly, that is why I said "should I ask it too?" considering you asked about my dogs. However the heritage of these dogs is much much wider than that of oliver...


I think we are all nice to say congratulations to the best litter in spain but maybe they should have a bit more information about health issues too.
or is this not good when we speak about certain dogs or lines and good only when we speak about others?
what is there to be afraid of? nothing I guess!
nothing to hide if we speak about the best litter in spain!

Klee is carrier, so, there are chances that Kay could be too, and I am curious to know about Enor.
All is important, bloodline, Hd, Good blood, bonitation, Elbows and now we know also DMA is important.

I think it is time to be more objective when speaking about litters and not always attacking the usual breeders becuase we don't like them.

New owners should be aware of what they are paying for.
This applies to others and also to myself, if a breeder is honest, and I am sure Tuky is a very very honest person and has been informed by his breeders about these problems and will do the same.

they can be who be but this are THE best litter in Spain :)
p.s. do You have permission from K-lee owner to publishe this results in all forums posts?
Sarka one time publishe italian dogs results and have later problems with this, for this I think better when make this owner but not friend from away

Are you sure about this info? :shock: I was talking with Gia, K-lee owner, a couple of weeks ago and she told me she was planning to do the DM test in 2011. I think she even wrote this on the Polish forum the other day.

Not knowing if K-lee is a carrier or not, her owners who are very responsible people decided to select a DM n/n rep, just to been the safe side 8)

I am owner of Male who mated K-lee.
I am planning to take one puppy as studfee, so I have been informed by EWA and have been authorised to speak about it becuase, responsibly, she knew before mating that Echo is N/N.

Now that all these informations have been given to you...can I FINALLY get some relpies???
Gosh..objectivity is down the drain these days!!

Why is everybody so scared to speak up??
It seems that I make one question, I receive many other questions, I reply but I dont get any reply.

Ewa is a responsible person and did things responsibly...but I am not asking about Ewa.

Said by the greatest expert of CLC around I guess...

thanks for nice worts for me is VERY important nice opinion from this type like You people

Look. It is not my intention to spoil this beautiful thread about tuky's litter.
I believe the last comments have no reason to be in the thread.
If mod wants, they can be taken off.
However i believe that my question about health and dma results of parents is appropriate and should be left.
Tuky, responsible breeder of the litter, may decide to reply yes, the dogs are tested an negative or whatever result they have, or may not reply at all.

I think it is correct to give right info to everybody, both that the litter is great (and i agree) an that the parents are tested or not for degenerative myelopathy.

I think she can make this ( and make ) without good people help :twisted:

But it was YOU who mentioned K-lee's DM results.

I think you must have misunderstood her (after all both of you didn't use your native languages talking to each other, right? ;) ).
On the 28 November Ewa wrote on Polish forum clearly that K-lee WASN'T testet yet, and because of it, being a responsible person she had chosen a testet stud dog just to be sure that K-lee's puppies would be healthy. http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=107
(I have really no business in this matter, just wanted to put things clear. :) )
Regards.

Calm down people - you really see "puppy time is comming" :rock_3 (in the case of Massimo it is hard to explain it as PMS.... :rofl3)

Yes, K-lee is carrier, but I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.
I did a DM test earlier, because Massimo asked me about it.

Ok, I understand.
Sorry for butting in. :)

Yes I agree 100%

And as nor Wolfdog.org or any Cs Club has DM or Dwarf as Demand for breeding (as I know) I think one can not demand info about it online ;)

And if one really wants to know and the dogs are not on the test list, way not ask in PM ???

I see DM and Dwarf questions as off topic on a topic like this :roll:

If this is happening every time a breeder wants to tell something, I think very soon No breeder will want to tell anything online at all :(

Therefor I would kindly like to ask the Moderators if it is possible to put this all in a new topic :roll: (DM questions to breeders) And put ALLL the future DM questions to ALLL breeders there ???

Very best regards / Mikael

PS, I´m for testing, but against witch hunting, DS.

Witch hunt will not help or save are breed !

Mikael, you're right :)

So... Sister!!!!!!!!! Congratulations!!!!!!!! Your puppies are so cute!!!!!!!!!!!! :)
Kisses to all family from K-lee Vornja z Peronówki ;)

Of course it is not the right topic... All results are and will be published on Mijke's list and in the topic about DM results on the forum...

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

I sense that some gossips are being spreaded :lol:

Look, if my questions are boorish..then I will stop asking questions, so you will all be happy.
I don't think you need my "support" or "contribution" anyway, there are enough little helpers...

Personal fights??
:shock::ehmmm
Since when I have personal fights with anybody on this thread? just because I asked a simple question...I got a whole tidewave of replies...so I am obliged to back off by the "stream".

Funny.
If I am a breeder I have a female and I use a male.
I choose the male according to some criteria.
One of these is his health.
If I use him, I get info on his health, like DMA.
So , if Tuky used Enor, he could have asked about DMA results and so could know it, just like Ewa knew about the male she used.
But...these rules apply ONLY when we care right?
If we DONT CARE, then this applies to all the others.
Margo, do YOU care?
Does WOFLDOG.ORG site CARE?
I don't fight anybody.
I just ask you to CARE more about DMA and to test your dogs and to breed responsibly.
Are you (all breeders) doing this?
I honestly don't think so...More than ME witchhunting others it seems that there is a big Tabu on this argument, so the best I can do is to be silent...
All I ask for is health info on dogs...on super dogs, on best litters...but this seems not to be a nice argument.
How many litters published on this site have DMA results?
OPS, sorry, i did it again...i am just a booring italian...cannot keep my mouth shut.

This is an example of the new wave of how to behave on wolfdog, wofldogetichette.
Same question from Daiva, same reply from me.

DNA test on Degenerative Mielopathy is relatively "new".
We can send blood tests to Germany from Italy or from Spain or from Poland in the same way.
The dogs I own who can reproduce have been tested.
I REPEAT: MY DOGS HAVE BEEN TESTED.
My 8 and 7 year old dogs, one without offspring and one with only one litter, will not reproduce anymore so I have no reason to BREED RESPONSIBLY with them.
But i guess my replies are useless right? somebody else will ask me again, when I kindly ask them if their dogs are tested, if I tested my dogs instead...

Rona, I very often appreciate your comments and I am surprised you do not get my intentions.
Kay is sister of K-Lee.
If K-Lee is carrier, so ALSO can be Kay.
Is this correct till now?
If you had a female who was carrier... If you could chose, what male would you use?
I can tell you what I would do.
I would use a carrier with a carrier only if he was SUPER SPECIAL to my eyes and only if it was the dog of my dreams.
BUT, I would test all puppies before selling them and I would inform the owners of the results.
I know, i am a dreamer, but here i am pictured as a witchhunter...(i think it's just because of being against the mainstream, but it's just my idea i guess)

So...to my eyes, breeding responsibly means choosing the right male for a female who is carrier.
But completely DISREGARDING the DMA means, to my eyes again, not being completely responsible.
Can somebody tell me what is wrong with this argumentation and where is the witchhunt?
I am sure Tuky is a great person, and maybe if he had more information he might have been more careful or chosen differently.
But often information doesn't flow the right direction I think.

Anyway, maybe to be better appreciated on this forum I should start writing nice things, like wow great litter and stuff like than...popularity means compromise...:?:cry:

why not - I see this very good are maked in italian forum :) bellisiiimooo cucioooooli :)
can this try and in this forum too :twisted:

I will no longer reply to any further provocation from who prefers "counter-attacking" instead of replying.

This is a very interesting article posted on the Czech Club Site:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/index.php?op...ravi&Itemid=44

And this is a bad google translation of it.
http://translate.google.it/translate...d%3D44&act=url

I hope and wish and wait for this to be different soon...

Information against Ignorance, health prevention against carelessness....

Massimo but why you are affraid of publishing the results? Oliver was used and it could safe a lot of work. His result is also very important for his puppy owners. And Lunatica - it doesn't matter that she is not for breeding - her result would be for sure interesting for Edith and other dogs from this line.
I know "carriers" or "affected" dogs can be reason for (similar) insinuations. But only if everybody will start to publish the results the breeders fights will stop...

It is exactly the witch hunt... ;) The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

Of course the DM n/n and this is not the issue.
I wouldn't call it witchhunt....Sorry, but I don't think it's fair to publish the results of somebody else's dog, even if it's not a secret. Knowing your usually elegant manners and class I just thought it was a kind of misunderstanding.

This is exactly what I try to tell the Swedish Saarloos/Vlcak Club, but they want to demand DM testing and take all Carriers of breeding, YES ALL CARRIER OFF BREEDING !!!

I´m in the club board and I support a recommendation for DM and Dwarf test, but think a demand is not scientifically supported yet, as for to have a demand by the Swedish Kennel Club it must bee a "Breed Problem" like we have whit HD. And as I know DM is not that common.

We only have very few CsV in Sweden, (10) but only 5 registered :oops:
take away 50% DM carriers and we have maximum 3 dogs to breed on, take away lines whit HD, we have maximum 2, take away the ones that do not have ED test and we have 1, take away the ones that do not have a Bonitation code and we have 0... :lol: And how about bad character, bad movements, other diseases and shy dogs... Than we are about -15 CsV in Sweden for breeding :( Lets get a bus and go down Europe... :rofl3

I´m the only one that did the DM test on my dogs, Hronec Taabernakkelin was a "Carrier", the response was PANNNNNNNNNNNNNIC !!!! DON’T BREED HE IS SICK :lol:, but I have a free female and understand we can not take 50% of the CsV OFF BREEDING...

Now some of them think I´m a bad breeder :cry:... :?... :lol:

But as I know, I’m the only one in Sweden that did HD, ED, DM, MH = Mental dog description. And as far as I know non did any of the test above yet...
Except one that did the MH.

Witch hunt has started before breeding has :rock_3

Very best regards / Mikael

Mikael, you touched exactly in the main problem of lay people and the hystery caused by them, which only hinder a possible future selection for ends with this problem without affect the genetic pool of the breed or the quality of the animals, thing wich requires a lot of patience, time, study and understanding.
with the reaction of some people we can arrive at the conclusion that not all people are prepared to receive real informations about health issues also as they are not prepared to work with it. To worst, we have also several people spreading gossips as using the results as excuse to accuse a breeder with the pseudo-talk of ethical and responsibility.

I think people choose to make selective reading, there is write that the preference is avoid mates between both affected dogs or both carriers, and IF POSSIBLE only mate affecteds and carriers dogs with free animals, obviously. that it's the only way to diminish the number of affected animals and carriers, and in a future clean the breed of this gene, simple genetic, but instead of it, lay people understand it in extreme way and spread that every affected or carrier dog should have his usage avoided, and then, the hystery starts.
They also choose to dont read the part that say DM is a disease under research, which people still does not know for sure what causes, how to cure, how many types of DM exists, which is the differences between these types and how to find those different types in an early exam, like the genetic SOD1 test.
They know that SOD1 gene points a risky factor to DM and they are studying it.

They does not ask themselves:
What is possible to do in our breed?
Which selection should we make?
Which kind of DM is showing in our dogs?
If more than one, in which lines?
Which one we should give preference in selection?

It's kind different a dog which get paralitic because of DM with 6 years old of one which is still walking with 13, but showing some silly symptoms.

But unfortunately, seems that we will never be able to reply most of these questions thanks to the hystery.

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

I may be wrong but I think by "affected" is meant "positive" and not "Ill"
A dog may be genetically "positive" DM/DM but not physically "Ill".
Of course if a dog is "Ill" then he will surely show signs.
But this is not true if a dog is "positive".
There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

than could you please name me one of those..cynical as i am, i only hear of those being put to sleep, never the names of those that run care free!

I've been thinking about the DM tests and Dwarf tests, etc. and have some reflections. Mainly some of our "moralists" question the ethical condition of breeders who have yet not tested their dogs.... They are right: responsible breeders and rep owners should test their dogs against all possible diseases and health hazards. But there is one catch - money!
Each of these tests isn't extremely expensive (maybe excpet Dwarf), but adding up costs of several tests and multiplying it by the number of owned dogs makes quite a lump sum.

Paradoxically, the so-called "ethical breeders", who invest in good dog food, suitable conditions, medical care, dog shows, training, socialising etc. of their dogs are in a worse position, because making all the tests would mean less means for other 'dog expenses', not to mention family needs, kids education, holidays etc. It's obvious that hardly anyone has unlimited financial resources...
One of the solution could be to include the test costs in puppy prices. However, in the light of many litters available and the fact that good breeders do not sell CSV to anybody but try to select suitable homes (not necessarily the richest ones - see the discussion about puppy prices!), makes this solution not very practical.

So we have on the one hand puppy mills where the owners could probably afford doing the tests, but don't care very much about their dogs/pups health, and on the other - devoted breeders who sometimes would want to test their dogs, but jus can't afford and plan to do the tests gradually...

One may say: if somebody does not have money for testing his/her dogs he shouldn't breed at all. True. But if people stop breeding, many of them would have even less means for testing the dogs. It looks like a vicious circle. The tests have been available for very short time; as Mijke wrote in another thread - any change needs time, education, discussion of side effects, etc.

So maybe instead of blaming people for not testing their dogs, spreading rumours about the results, publishing results of other people's dogs, asking questions: "have you tested your dogs yet?", making owners/breeders feel guilty, etc. etc. we could just assume common goodwill. Lets take that caring, ethical breeders have tested their dogs, intend to test their dogs and will test their dogs at the earliest time feasible for them. I'm sure people will not object to publishing the test results if nobody will use them against them, their animals and their kennels.

By attacking others (even indirectly and with best intentions) nothing is achieved! People will only close themselves and hide the results, which is just the opposite from what is best for the breed.

And one more argument - there is a proverb "who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones". CSV teach humility and while looking at our dwarf free, DM clean, HD A and ED 0 dog we should remember we still don't know what else he might carry inside him :|

Happy holidays to all! ... well I'm a couple of days of Wolfdog and I find this discussion focused on my litter:shock:

I knew it would not give so much to talk about a birth announcement litter's Kay

Only the English forum announced (other than Spanish) to where some of the friends knew of their development and because I was (and am) very excited about it

I will not round, Kay has not made the DM test, why? that did not know how to do them from Spain, and when I found out I had to do and mating.

DM test Kay?... of course, When? Kay is recovered when the puppies, before other tests are more important to me, but you can rest assured that it will be before her next litter. Honestly I did not worry because the "half-brothers " Kay, were free

And by Enor, then, what to say without a flutter? ... hehe :roll:

if you worry for the puppies, 3 of them have houses, they know how to act and rely on my decision. Still need a female without knowing where it will be their new home, be well informed as it enters Wolfdog advise to follow the news of breed. (a female will stay in the kennel 8))

anything else? ... I will not get into fights, but thought it necessary to respond.

There is a saying that says a fight is necessary for 2 people, (I do not want to fight;-))

As always - I can only agree with you.
Yes, these "once in life" tests are important, but when you count the costs of blood and urine tests to check if a female is really strong and healthy before she is even on heat, all the estrogen/progesteron tests (we know wolfdogs may need more than "normal" breeds 8)), traveling to male and other costs, one pays for every litter every time a female is mated... The puppies are golden :D So it is normal that people might want to save some money for additional tests, like DM, Dwarf or, still nobody speaks about how important they are (or aren't???), PRA and other eye tests :roll:

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.

Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

And who now says but that is an old dog cant be an owner of a TWD.

My own dog Hogan sky is an carrier of DM and I will make sure he's never bread with an untested bitch.

Gr
Tatiana

Hi Tatti,
Just for exactness' of terminology sake, a Carrier (DM/N) can't get ill. An Affected (DM/DM) as Falco (and his brother Forrest here in Italy :( ) sadly indeed can.
Anyway... the more dogs we test the more we'll know about the spreading of the illness...

Ok sry i did wright it wrong, English isn't my favorite language
I totally agree

Gr
Tatiana

Very wise words.

I would say true, very wise and also farmerswisdom, and miss the point that is being made..specially we do not know what other diseases our dogs might carry i only see more reasons for testing and being open about those we do know about and being more carefull abou he combinations we make...

but getting back to my earlier question that is sadly still unanswered, can someone give me the name of just one dog with dm/dm that has reached the age of 10 without showing any symptons?

In the document Understanding and Applying ThE Genetic Test for Degenerative Myelopathy there is an interesting stat:

"For the DM test dogs coming back "At-Risk" is the probability that the dog will later develop the disease known? Are there any statistics on frequency or number seen of affected dogs in the general Chesapeake population?

As we do not know the other factors that cause the clinical onset of DM, we cannot predict what percentage of dogs testing “At-Risk” (homozygous for the susceptibility gene) will develop the disease. Dr. Coates’ research of the Veterinary Medical Database (VMDB) showed that 13 of 1,567 (0.83%) Chesapeake Bay Retrievers presenting to veterinary teaching hospitals had clinical DM. Presently, 15% of Chesapeake Bay Retrievers test “At-Risk” for DM. It is obvious that the vast majority of “At-Risk” dogs will not develop DM."

I suspect that our late Tina might have developed DM at the age of 13,5. She died at 14, but during the last few months she had problems with walking and they seemed non-orthopeadic. We X-rayed her and her bones and joints were in suprisingly good condition! Two independent vets said the symptoms looked as if coming from the nervous system. We haven't tested her for DM obviously, but when reading about the disease I realized several symptoms seemed familiar. We carried Tina up and down stairs in the last month but she was able to walk weakly and slowly until her death. :cry:

At the age of 13 she was running and jumping, but apparently suffered when walking upstairs.

interesting! Was she used for breeding and has her offspring been tested? (if she was dm/dm her offspring would all be at least be carrier consequently)
*edit, not meant as to label any offspring, just cause i have seen dogs that suffer from the disease and have been put to sleep because of it at an unfair early age and since i first heard of it several yrs ago, the information and research has been intensified and new info seems to get out daily, i am very interested

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....


Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

I think it is exactly what we can observe by our breed... Only small percentage gets ill.
What would be also interesting is the age when the 0.83% get ill...

=======
I'm not for ignoring the DM problem - because it is really important to make bigger reseach and to test as much dogs as possible... But the whole "DM panic" started by some breeders is really without sense.

Because now we miss one VERY important thing... There are lines by CzWs which have SERIOUS problems to move properly already at the age of 2-4 YEARS... And some dogs from these lines have been tested with N/N. So for 100% they do not have DM... They are also HD-free...
So there must be also some kind of much more "dangerous" "illness" that DM...

At the moment some breeders went crazy for DM tests and there are already some which decided not to use DM-carriers but took "DM clear" dogs from... the "bad walking" lines.
So for sure their puppies will not have DM problems at the age of 10, 11, 12... 15 years. But it is very possible they get problems already at the age of 2 years.... (because of the hip problems which are not diagnosed now)...

No, she wasn't. She had no pedigree nor breeding rights and we knew nothing about her origins. We found her as a puppy in a park http://wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1268.html
PS. When Tina fell ill, she had her blood tested several times and she had no traces of tumour or other cancer. Her detailed blood test results were always perfect or close to perfect.

I think is important DM regarded as a disease and DM test result because we have some important scientific certainty, even if full knowledge of the disorder is still far, even if the risk and the incidence appears to be low.
Similarly, the panic does not make sense. But this panic can rule only where there is lack of knowledge, all you need to know for a clear and thorough knowledge of DM can be easily found. In Italy was held a meeting with Dr Gandini, a leading veterinary neurologists in Europe, which is contact and follows the staff of Professor Coates that has discovered the gene SOD1 and developed the test.

It states that there are more serious problems before considering the DM (and I'm not doubting that there are) talking about alleged problems of movement, in unspeakable blood lines, I find it not very scientific and serious.
This problem is a disease or a problem due to poor physical construction? What would be the dogs with? I'm always interested in health problems and all information that may contribute to genetic improvement of the breed.

Could you open a thread, and in addition to a serious research (as did Mijke for DM) about this problem?

The fact that there is an agent for activating SOD1 is still a hypothesis under investigation, not a certainty. Talking to the SOD1 gene in a family is more active than others is not serious and scientific.

It 's more useful to consider that the probability of finding a recessive gene as homozygous (DM / DM) is directly proportional to the higher inbreeding coefficient.

This is very likely what's happening, this is the case for many many other diseases or gen traits, i.e. genetic regulatory networks expressivity pattern.

My dog has one of these "new disease", she starts walking not properly at the age of 1.5, the scanner showed her disease is related to the central part of bones, this central part -spongy bone-, does not show the correct structure and have too much soft tissus (showed in the scanner as large black parts -some cm long- whereas regular tissus looks light grey). Vets are likely for a genetic causes, but know nothing more about it.

:( Very sorry about your dog, is it a CsV ? And how old is she now ?
Did it get worse whit age ?

Best regards / Mikael

On the dogs today that are Affected and ill, can one see anyhing that has any similarities ??? Like high COI % or Line :roll: ???

And NO names please !

Very best regards / Mikael

I meant it as for DNA tests :)
DNA testing is pretty new - the universities are just developing them... But it was possible to test DM already since several years. Since 2008 you have the "official" test. But before some laboratories made researches and I know polish breeders (not CzW breeders) which send samples to USA before 2008 to help to develop it...

2 years long nobody was interested in testing CzW for DM... Long time in the world of DNA tests... ;)

Test available form polish breeder from several years?? The test out of Uni Missouri is recent!

I know the possibility of test on end of 2009, i have made my research and i test my bitch on March of 2010. Many owner know the test from some mounth, although Mijke inform us on 2009.

Not the "official" tests! :p

Look - the cases of DM by dogs were known for many years... It was pretty known illness... It is why universities started to investigate how it is heritated... They asked for blood samples of healthy and ill dogs which helped them to prepare "official" tests....

Polish breeders send samples for the researches which were made before 2008......


It is like with dwarfs - some dogs were tested by the Dutch laboratory BEFORE the official test was "published"...

I hope now it is clear.... :p

Yes is clear, but Dr Gandini say us different cronology about the first tests done for research (not ufficial) by Uni Missouri, outside of the first sample of dog on wich the research develop. But is not very important :p

Important is the fact that in their choices of breeding, aimed at combating a disease, a test can be considered valid only after all the necessary scientific availment, and then from 2009, which is a recent test. All Veterinay says than is new the possibility to select in breeding (with all scientific bases) SOD1 gene.