Puppy in California
 

I recently received an email from someone in California who (supposedly) imported a CSV puppy within the past 3-4 months. He is having HUGE problems with his puppy, and wanted to quickly get rid of it...I really worry for the safety of the puppy's life.... The guy also is not too happy with me, since I refused to reserve him a puppy from my own litter - so it is hard to get much information from him now. I don't know what breeder he got the puppy from, or even which country - only that it was Europe.

I will try to help this puppy as much as I can...but I would really like to talk to the breeder and see what their thoughts/wishes are - if I can get a reply from the new owner...I am so worried from this email.... Maybe the breeder (or someone who knows this breeder) will read this and send me a PM...

I really beg breeders in Europe...please, please, please get to know new owners and think very carefully before shipping puppies to the US. There are some really good potential owners in the US...but many more people that have no idea what it takes to be happy living with a wolfdog.:oops:

Translations to other forums would be very helpful!

Thank you,
Marcy

I have translated it for the German Forum but I don´t think the puppy comes from there.

Ina

I've translated your post and published it on the Polish forum. I doubt if any Polish breeder sold him the puppy, but maybe somebody knows who did.:|

Marcy
why this owner does not contact breeder? I think every breeder will help to his puppy,when puppy has problem....But-maybe . His breeder does not know puppy has problem??????

Dear Marcy,

I posted your call for information on the Dutch forum. Update us if you receive more information!

Gr Robbert

Thank you so much to everyone for their help - I will certainly update if I receive more information. :tard

All of the very best,
Marcy

I have in California city one friend which works with dogs.Maybe he can help to owner with puppy????

Hanka,

I also have friends in California who would help, and also know some CSV owners there who would probably help - I told the guy this, and even offered to pay to ship the puppy to Virginia (and my kennel), in addition to suggesting he contact the breeder. So far, no response... I have emailed him one more time - maybe he will check his email this evening and respond, I hope.

Thank you for your offer of help!
Marcy

Nobody is answering the phone.:cry:

Or answering emails for one week...maybe he has some kind of family problems, or is on holiday...

Just going to translate it in Italian and put it on the Italian Forum.. I hope the puppy will be well (why people just can't THINK??!)

Thank you so much...but, now at least I know who the breeder is, no more translations needed - so they are also able to address the problem...if only the owner will respond to everyone who wants to help the puppy.:roll:

Marcy

Ok, perfect, I'll tell to the Italian forum then... Paws crossed for the puppy!!

Any news about the pup?

Yes, there has been contact with the owner - between the breeder, me, and a few other helpful folks in the US. The owners have decided to seek some training with a professional trainer - and have finally "opened their eyes" that the breed is not a GSD.:roll: No matter how many times someone tells you, or how you try to see it in your mind - there is no way to "know" a wolfdog until you have met and lived with one. Or 8.:shock:

If they decide not to keep the puppy, now they know for sure there are safe places for the puppy to go. So, this is a relief for me, at least.

I think more people feel relieved! Well done!:lol:

Great Job Marcy!!

It's almost impossible to adequately describe the differences to new prospective owners/packs of training a CSV versus any other breed. It's the information sharing, support, and networking such as this example that will help provide a stable base for the CSV breed in the U.S., or anywhere else that this breed is so rare. Thanks everyone!

I wonder, now that the first CSV litter has been born in the U.S., what language will they speak?? The biggest challenge I experienced when first receiving my CSV pup was of course the language barrier. For those of you on this forum, you know that the challenge I was referring to was not with the dog learning "English", but with me learning CSV...

Since we're on the subject, I'm curious about actually getting to meet/interact with CsVs before actually planning a huge trip to Europe or anything. :) Does anyone know anyone in or near Chicago? Or, are any of you attending dog shows in that area, or do you ever visit? This wouldn't have to be any time soon (I'm probably 5-10 years out from owning one, sadly) but I figure it can't hurt to ask. :)

Quite Possibly a future friend!
 

I live in Texas... It is a little further than what you described (I do however have a close friend in Chilicothe), but in October 2010, I will be returning to Texas from Italy, to start a boarding kennel as well as going to school to train working dogs. (Either Tarheel Canine or Vohne Liche) Anyways... I've read some of your posts, and you are really on top of things. You have asked certain questions which either I wanted to learn for myself, or wait until I was confident to know exactly what to ask.. I am in Italy and have fallen in love with this breed since I bought my first in 2008. Please feel free to write and ask questions... I believe that is the best way to receive the answers we want. I know only basics of training (as per the reason I want to go to school to learn more).

Seeing won't work. Especially if it is a grown up wolfdog. They look just onderful then, nothing worse than retriever :D And people do not believe, this amazing dog used to make owners just sit and cry 8) Maybe someone should start a topic "Real stories. My CSV made my cry by doing..." :D

Agree! Especially that they tend to switch on their demo version when visitors come in to see the worse of the breed. :p
There was as similar topic on the Polish forum but people stopped adding their CSVs 'crimes', when some others started commenting how nice and gentle wolfdogs they had.:rock_3 :p
But:
I read the topic after a couple of years and realised that some of the greatest wolfdog troublemakers, that in their 'teenage' period literally walked on the walls, grew up to be lovely, predictable and well-trained animals and some of the "perfect pups" that destroyed nothing were later abandoned by their owners for some unknown reasons... :?

I suppose some CSV pups are more ingenuous/difficult than others, but in principle, the first year or two with a CSv is not easy time for the owner. The general rule however is, that the more time, energy and care the owner offers the pup during this time, the easier it is to handle the adult wolfdog.8)

I know... it is in Italian, but this Thread is amazing and very very useful for us to let new owners "know"... you can see the photos and make your own conlusions.

This is very off topic but we had one here to >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...ht=Destruction

But I think it is locked away in the forum basement ;-) even if you post I do not think it will show on the 10 top list...

Very best regards / Mikael

Old thread, but is this pup still in CA? I live there and I'd love a chance to meet one. Vicky actually sparked my interest in the breed recently and recommended me to the forums. It's going to be a long time till I'll be able to actually get one but spending some time with one would be great :)

I'd also like to say there is a ton of great information here and I've been reading the board constantly as well as all of the articles I've found here over the last week or two.

Sorry, no - this puppy has found another happy new home in another state. 8)

That is pretty much definitely the best for the pup in this situation. I just can't believe someone would be so pushy to have to bring a dog in immediately and then a few months later just try to get rid of it as quickly as possible :(

Sadly, out of the 50-60 dogs that have been imported to the US and Canada, I know of 5 of these stories. 4 of them had happy outcomes...the other, did not, I think. Several owners have had real struggles, but managed to ride out the "storm" of adolescence and have reached the peaceful side of maturity. As a breeder here, I get so many emails from people who are totally inappropriate or not in the right place of life to take on a big committment...people in the US have such a different idea of dog ownership - almost delusional sometimes - about their capabilities, or what a dog like ours actually needs in terms of mental stimulation, exercise, socialization, etc. Later, I see that they have imported - and I immediately try to make contact so they have support. Young people often find it totally acceptable to turn their dog into rescue or the pound, others blame all the problems on the dog (rather than their human abilities) and ponder whether their dog is genetically "dangerous" - and ask my opinion if they should euthanize. :evil: It's really scary for me...especially when they are across the US and far from driving distance...but I always try to offer assistance if I can.

Yeah, I'd imagine as being a breeder you probably see the worst of it. After seeing so many terrible breeders though this community is a sight for sore eyes in that aspect. I don't think I'll ever be able to understand people who think that just dumping their dog at the shelter or putting it down because they are difficult as a puppy is acceptable. I actually had a good discussion with Vicky recently regarding the difference in the average quality of breeders between the US and Europe as well as the level of knowledge the average dog owner has and just how much that seems to differ.

That's a pretty high rate of dogs needing rehoming :( I hoped it would be smaller, that maybe since it's such a new breed especially here in the US that the people importing them would be more responsible. I definitely agree though that so many people in the US who have dogs really just don't understand how much responsibility it is. I live in a college town right near the campus and on my block and the next block there are at least 5 dogs who are kept primarily outdoors, never exercised, and constantly bark and whine. It's really depressing. The average college student who just wants a dog because they grew up with one or whatever really has no idea what it means to really care for one (and I say this as a college student graduating in 3 months who spends pretty much every second of his free time with his dogs :)). This is a rant that I could go on about for way too long, but the way so many people handle having dogs in the US is really sad.

Rivals, czech wolfdogs are difficult dogs.

Christian

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Rivals, czech wolfdogs are difficult dogs. For it is the pitty that the breeders who send the pups over the atlantic does not sort out the right owners... It is not during puppy hood but the first 4-5 years till they settle down. If the breeders would be honest they would not send csw to the US. Only to experienced people. And if you ask the right questions and lets show you pictures, videos you will notice fast, if someone will be able to care for a csw. These are wolfdogs! The most are 7-9 generation after wolf mixed with highly working german shepard. What do you think will come out?

Christian

That's very true. I'm sure a lot of people rush into getting one without understanding that at all, very much like so many people I've seen here with getting Huskies. Sadly, it's not that surprising to see people here getting into a breed which they don't understand and it's not them but the dog who suffers in that situation. But I also agree that some breeders should be more strict with who they ship to (I obviously can't speak for specifically CzW breeders since I have no direct experience just what I've read here, but more in general).

Also I hope I'm not coming across like I have a full understanding and a ton of knowledge of this breed (and I apologize if I am). I am very new to it and have a lot to learn about them still :)

I don't know if it's so much that they are difficult - but they have very unique needs. All breeds do. LOL - I spent all day in the emergency room of our local hospital yesterday with a good friend after his hands got torn to shreds when he broke up a dog fight - a 6 month old puppy he owned had a toy, and an older dog he is fostering for a rescue became jealous - they got in a fierce fight - which resulted in many deep bite wounds on my friend and the puppy. A wolfdog? or a pitbull? or a german shepherd? no...2 Golden Retrievers. My dogs would never dream about that kind of jealousy over toys, food, or anything - after training, of course. The goldens are quite needy in terms of attention - which frequently leads to jealousy and seperation anxiety, and dogs that are constantly in your facew - a trait which can also make them great pets and good therapy dogs. To me, that is a difficult trait...I like more independent acting dogs that don't constantly crave affection. For our breed, the energy and bold/stubborn/intelligent personalities of our dogs can make them super fun to work with - but a nightmare for the wrong household. That's exactly what I mean though...to most Americans, a dog is a dog...little thought is given to unique needs of a breed or individual. Once problems start...forget it...committment is a rare creature here. :( The most difficult age, I have found, is between 6/7 months and 18/24 months...my 3 older dogs became quite mellow after that, Bongo seems to be following the same pattern - and I have heard similar accounts from other owners and breeders. Of the cases where dogs were given up here - one was a lady from the Czech Rep. - she had met the breed many times, but found her dog too much to care for when she had a baby. Two of the cases were people who wanted a GSD in a wolf coat - they couldn't get the working results/drive they wanted using GSD repetitive training. Another was just incompatible - I think the guy had mental illness...and used cruel physical punishment. The last case I'm not sure about - they had several small children and were in the military (lots of moving, maybe to a place that didn't allow dogs). They had a bold male puppy. 4 of those dogs are doing beautifully in their new homes - perfect, beloved pets who will be assets to breeding programs one day.

I really, really wish European breeders would shoot our breed club a quick email when they are approached by an American trying to import a pup. Usually we have had some contact with the person - or can even meet the person to help the European breeder have a better evaluation. We don't see it as breeder rivalry - we really want more people to import to the US - especially interesting males.;-)

Rival, send me your contact info in a private message - I will forward it to some owners your way who might be willing to meet with you.

Marcy

I agree wholeheartedly.

Besides that, if anybody who brought from a breeder was thinking to put the dog down or rehome it, I would hope that the breeder cared to reclaim the dog to find another suitable home for it.

If CSVs ever reach the level of backyard breeding and mill breeding that GSDs and other 'popular' pets are unfortunately prone to, it'll be a very sad day indeed. I only hope that breeders will invest in a good, legally binding contract and intend to uphold it through all circumstances. We know of breeders who have punitively sued successfully to get back their puppies who have been turned into shelters without their knowledge, rehomed, or bred without permission.

Hence her nick name "Hurricane Luna". :rock_3:p

I don't think I've ever had a dog that's had this much energy but around 7 months old she started to calm down, she's almost 8 months now.

The only really high energy time now is when she and Pongo are out together. Then it's a category 5 hurricane. He still has a lot of energy but hopefully he'll start to calm down in the next few months, I think he just turned 6 months a few weeks ago. (Is his breeder here? Was his birthday Feb 3 or March 2?).

But - I was proactive and to keep it out of the hands of squatters, I did register vlcakrescue.com and vlcakrescue.org (both now point to the CsVCA website).

As for EU breeders contacting people in the USA, while it is a great idea I'm sure there are some breeders who don't want to bother with that with the fear of losing a sale and if the prospective owner is rejected by one breeder, they can just go to another and another until they get what they want.

For European breeders, responsible ones, anyway, PLEASE do research on suitable homes before exporting a dog to the US. Internationally, contracts are near un-reinforceable.

At least if both parties are in the same country, contracts have been successfully upheld in court... it won't be the same if the two parties are from different countries.

For the past couple of dogs I have had, there are existing stipulations in their contracts barring the rehoming of a dog unless it is back with the breeder, or immediate family per breeder consent... I would hope that ANY breeder who brings life into the world would feel personally responsible to find another home for the dog should the primary home be found to be unsuitable.

I'm happy that another home has been found for this dog!

European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required.
I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand.
As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...

Well, Catahoulas have very demanding needs too.. And rescues I know of and work with have seen entire litters put down and many adults currently needs homes..

So I wouldn't put I past people to exploit just about anything... :cry:

Perhaps not mill, but certainly backyard breeders of all sorts, I can see..as is the case in countries they are already popular in.

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder, I am sure that there are also US breeders without contract.
In our contracts it is clearly stated that the dog has to be offered to us if it can´t be kept any longer and that we will find another owner if we can´t take it back ourself. In the German contracts we did also put fines of several thousand Euros on giving the dog away without announcing to us and to breed it outside the FCI.
As for the puppy from our kennel we did send to the US, I think we didn´t really send cotracts back and fro but we had a good contact to the former owner for a very long period via mail and phone, she was an experienced owner with already another wolfdog who kept contact and gives us updates every now and then. As I have no possiblity tho upheld any contract in court I didn´t bother too much but I wouldn´t sell a puppy overseas not knowing the person since quite a time and making clear that we will take any puppy back if necessary.
And I know that almost all German breeder do the same.

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

What I am familiar with in the US:

For example, one of our dogs developed 2 luxating patellae around 7 months old. Her breeder offered another dog, or refund her cost to help her surgery. (We picked the second... we didn't need another dog at the time).

Especially for when a dog was brought with intention of showing or breeding, say that the dog develops debilitating hip dysplasia, I know of a few breeders who will give another show-quality dog when the owner is ready in addition to the disabled dog.


That is what I know of personally here.

As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different.
For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example.

Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent.

Ina

Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed.

Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show).

But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear.

I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.'

There have been done studies in Berlin by Dämmrich ed.al. on the influence of feeding and exercise on HD. It must have been in the ninetees and I think it was published in "Kleintiermedizin".
I mainly agree but there is a legal difference between guarantee and taking care.

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!). It cannot be re-sold without the agreement of the breeder and if anything goes wrong the breeder should be informed about it asap under a penalty clause.

It's another question whether the owners obey the contracts or not :x Unfortuantely, our courts do not treat breaking breeding contracts too seriously and it'd take ages by the time the case appeared.:( So it's more a matter of honour/decendcy to fulfil the requirements, than a legal issue.

I'm curious, how would something like this work in a country like the US where there really ARE no "breeding rights" to speak of. :roll: Would it transfer to getting show or sport titles? Or is there a way to gain breeding rights when you're out of the country (as in, gaining the right to breed in Poland while living in the US). I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.

In Europe almost every country has different national requirements for granting breeding rights + there are particular breed clubs that may add additional conditions, such as bonitation, endurance run, HD/ED X-rays, etc. etc.

Most national kennel clubs function under the auspices of the FCI and FCI encourages to respect the law of particular countries. This means that if the dog gains breeding rights in country A he may be used as rep in country B even though he does not fulfil the requirements for a rep in country B. This is theory, because in reality national specific breed clubs may limit such practices by not agreeing to certain matches or refusing to register litters of such parent. It could serve in favour or against breed development, depending on the knowledge, ambitions and intentions of the policy-makers.:?

I have no idea how this system corresponds with the US one but I think Marcy has already conducted research and wrote about it in some other thread some time ago. Check on her website if you don't find it on WD.

I think breeders solve the problem of sending pups abroad according to their common sense and to the extent they feel responsible for their pups' welfare. Usually they try to get to know future owners by corresponding with them for a while, gather opinions of other owners, ask them to come to collect the pup personally (which often is cheaper/ safer than cargo), or even take the pups themselves to see in what conditions it will live and to check if the owner may be trusted. I think the personal/ethical side is more important here than the contract, especially when one sends the dog to another continent.

Unfortunately, breeders who send the pups most eagerly abroad, without even a contract not to mention proper 'owner research' are usually the least reliable... :(

problems posting!!!
 

testing to post

guarantee's
 

Sorry I am having trouble posting for some reason. I have 2 WD's from Germany and I love them. I have raised Cane Corso for several years, my first had HD at 5 months old and I was given a 14 week old pup with a limp, terrible temperament, lunged at kids that young and never stopped, scared of everything and everyone. I named her Belmonte's Double or Noth'n and guess what I ended up with!! From there I imported my pups flying over several times to pick them myself. I have bred many very nice litters and I have always offered a 3 year health guarantee on all pups. I have delivered pups to Vancouver and Halifax to meet the owners, I have driven almost to Canada twice to meet people and rehome adult dogs. I am available 7 days per week to all my puppy owners, I request pics to be able to watch thier growth and health. I have been very lucky not having to replace pups left and right like some have and I am happy with that, so are my puppy owners. I feel my 3 year health guarantee shows my confidence in my breeding program unlike those that offer 2 years as one poster stated when HD might just start to appear. I understand HD is/can be genetic and or environmental but I prefer to back up what I produce unless of course I have reason not to. I have only replaced a couple dogs for HD and I know most owners don't xray unless there is a problem but there are breeders having to replace pups before they are even a year old so I consider myself very lucky. I like using email rather then phone calls because I then have something to refer back to and if I feel something in that email is not right I am able to question it in a later email and in most case's that person does not remember what they have already said. People can tell you what they think you want to hear so even the best screaning sometimes is not good enough.

Pete, with the CCs and the CsVs, I assume you're Blusteel, right? :)

Good morning Yukidomari, yes I am Blusteel Cane Corso. Our breed just recently went full recognition with AKC and I proudly say that 2 of the 5 invitations to our first Westminster Show have been given to 2 males produced by 2 of my males! I will be there to watch this historical event, I don't even care if they place they will always have the invitations!

Good luck at Westminster! I will be there showing my Malinois, Ch TriSorts Zorro del Mango, RE. Can't wait for the day I can show one of my Vlcaks there. Hoping to at least be able to do Meet the Breed at the upcoming Eukanuba National Championships in Orlando...

Re: Contracts & HD
 

Ina, the problem with contracts - especially from Europe - is enforcing them. I have been involved in importing (probably hundreds by now) GSD and Belgian Shepherds from Europe since 1994 and have NEVER had a breeder even suggest a contract. It is nice to see there are a few Vlcak breeders who do it, but even so, how to enforce it here? We have problems enforcing contracts even across state lines, let alone across the pond... I have a contract for each of my puppies, but again, I can list a bunch of "failed" contracts I have heard about from other dog friends... especially if you do not have the money for a big legal battle. And even the flip side - I know of a guy whose 7 month old GSD dropped dead from Sub-Aortic Stenosis and the breeder ended up not holding up her end of the bargain...
Yukodomari, I have attended a multitude of Breeder's Symposiums both at the University of Pennsylvania and University of Florida and HD is described as a multi-factorial issue. Yes, genetics play a big part, but environment and nutrition do, too. A pup with the best genetics can develop HD from inappropriate environment (slick kennel surface) or bad nutrition (puppy food which has an inappropriate calcium to phosphorous ratio and often too much protein as well as unbalanced raw diet). In fact, as a vet tech I saw this so often that in my own puppy contract I stipulate environment and nutritional needs to hopefully prevent problems.
I am sure you can find scientific studies and information by contacting PennHIP vet Dr. Gail Smith. There is a lot of "anecdotal" stuff out there online, too - ask the Dane people about the evils of puppy food! - or I am sure if there are breeders seminars offered in your area... Pat Hastings goes into it in her Puppy Puzzle seminar, too, with a very impressive collection of her own information - pictures, etc...

Congrats on the invite, Pete @ Blusteel!

Additionally,
I did go to some UPenn seminars on HD since one of our dogs has pretty severe HD... it is multi faceted, of course. Just one thing about "puppy food" and giant breeds - I disagree wholeheartedly with the old practice of switching puppies to 'adult' food at 4 months... the problem is, as you say, Cals/Phos ratio, not the additional fat or protein in puppy food. In fact recent published reports confirm that high protein is not the cause for things like irregular rapid growth.

In "Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll

(emphasis added are mine)

Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value...

Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium).

Out of all grain free food I know of, the only one with appropriate Cal/Phos for puppies are Orijen and Acana.. even the ones like Taste of the Wild that claim to be "all life breeds" have calcium and phosphorus levels that exceed what I find acceptable and acceptable by published reports.

The problem is finding a correct food with correct cals/phos, not that puppy food is inherently bad for giant growing puppies. In fact many foods marketed as "puppy food" probably don't meet the appropriate levels, either. Suffice to say that adult foods generally have inappropriate C/P levels for puppies, too. A mentor/breeder with Great Danes as well as friends showing Mastiffs have similarly reflected these ideas - and for them, keeping a puppy on an appropriate puppy food is recommended until at least the giant breed is done growing, at least around 1 year old if not more.

Well we can agree to disagree. I have been "in dogs" professionally since 1991, and base my opinions on not only emerging science, but what I have seen with my own eyes. Dogs presenting with Pano due to Puppy food, switched to Adult or even a Senior formula and seeing the disease resolve, not to mention the other growth disturbances I have personally seen in dogs raised on Puppy food, like severe "Eastie-Westie" fronts. You can diagnose E-W fronts due to nutrition vs. genetics by picking the dog up behind the elbows and letting the front legs dangle. If they hang straight but go E-W on the floor, it is nutritional. If they hang E-W it's genetic.
Scientific studies throughout have brought in cal-phos and protein-fat ratios to the table as reasons - regardless of the mechanism, I have seen it time and again.
It is likely that some of the pet food companies have made steps to help regulate growth through large breed formulas, but I don't necessarily trust them. I know of vets who see a Dane come in and their first thought is "cha-ching!" - yes, go ahead and feed puppy - I will tell you to switch once you present with Pano and later, bloat...
I never feed Puppy at all - simply Adult formulas. I stay away from crazy high protein level foods (like Evo) until the pup is at least 12 months old and make sure that chicken fat is not in the top 4 ingredients if I can help it, as it has been linked to bloat.
I also take care to keep them lean, no "pounding" (running a distance or jumping a lot) on the joints until they are 24 months old, and I exercsie them moderately.
It has worked well for me - none of my large breed dogs have ever had an issue - all have xrayed as good as, or better, than their parents, and so far the few pups I have produced have also followed suit.
Everyone raises their dog(s) as they see fit. What works for one may not work for another - even individual metabolism is different - so there are no hard and fast rules - just what I have found to work for me.

Yes, agree to disagree. I tend to view anecdotal evidence with a skeptical approach, being that they are unproven and not empirical. Everyone is different, as you say, though. :)

I am just as skeptical about scientific research - many studies have been skewed so that the results look favorable to the funding party. I have been in human medicine my whole life (my parents are a cardiac surgeon and an Operating Room Registered Nurse and I am a Nationally Certified Surgical Technologist), and I have seen many, many studies being disproven, many new drugs being pushed based on skewed numbers, while cheap long-time standbys are ignored, even though they are the better choice, and patients DYING because of it.
Of all the things I have done in my life, I consider myself primarily an "Ethologist" - someone who studies animal behavior in their own environment - and this field is all anecdotal. Is it fair to say animals do not have "feelings" because we cannot prove it scientifically?
So, for me, I read the science, I listen to what others have experienced, but most of my beliefs are via my own eyes. Do I believe a study that someone may have skewed for their own benefit or my own eyes?

Of course whenever business interests are involved you can get skewed results, even so called studies. Ever read some 'studies' (read: marketing) produced by Purina? Hilarious! That's why it's important to note the funding parties and if the study is conducted in a scientific way with things like reproducible results and peer review.

That doesn't discount science for me.. Simply how and why it is reported.

You cite being 'in dogs' for x years, where you work, etc, but I don't understand what that adds?

Anyway, I don't really want to argue, so .. :)

Happy new year and congrats on the Westminster invite too.

I think there is a huge difference between say, having had a dog or two your whole life versus someone who has professional experience "in dogs"... for instance, I have personally trained hundreds of dogs of every breed (just about) and mix of breeds, with every sort of "past history" you can imagine. I cut my teeth on shelter dogs for the first 5 years I trained - and gained invaluable experience about aggressive behavior in the process. I was a Vet Tech for years - not only for a "regular" small animal vet, but for a canine dermatologist as well as an exotic vet. I also have been training and competing in AKC, UKC, schutzhund, IABCA for almost as long, earning titles, as well as dabbling in other sports like agility, herding, water work, seiger shows... from having so many contacts in all different breeds, venues, etc., you gain not only experience with your own dogs (or client dogs), but through learning from peers and mentors in the various fields.
I think there is something to be said for someone who has gotten invited to Eukanuba 3 times with 2 different dogs, has competed at Westminster 3 times, has put titles on not only my own dogs but client's dogs - you get to know a lot of folks, and if you are a total pain in the ass when it comes to picking people's brains (I love talking to judges, etc.) you learn a lot. Mind you, I didn't get into the above national events because I have money, either - I did it myself. Granted I have some nice dogs, but it is also hard work and experience that makes for a well-conditioned, well-behaved, professional dog out there in the ring.
I also am probably a little obsessive about learning everything possible... for instance, it was 15 years "in dogs" before I dared breed my own litter. Yes, I had whelped and raised litters for others, but it was not until I had what I thought was "enough" knowledge about my breed and bloodlines before I took the leap... 15 years of Breeders Symposiums, and I wasn't even a breeder yet!
But that's what I think "adds"... that I have a LOT of not only personal experience, but "inherited" experience through my mentors and peers... not just studies or things one might find on-line, but personal exposure - often my knowledge even has to be kept hush-hush because certain people do not want the "bad stuff" leaking out, but at least I get the benefit of knowing things that others don't...

:popcorn: OK.

And I'll try to get my own benefit from this :D Do you mean Orijen and Acana for puppies or regular foods? :roll: (I skipped many chemistry lessons at school :lol:)

Lunas mom, but modesty isn't your strongest feature, is it? :roll: ;-)

Vaiva-If I do the conversion from % to grams, all Acana Provincial grain free has appropriate levels as well as all Orijen except the newest 'Red Meat' formula.

By the way, dry weight protein may seem high, but raw meat on a dry basis is comparable in protein content. The difference of course is water content.

:lol::lol::lol: This is purely cultural, Vaiva. Self-appreciation, very common in the USA, in Europe is considered a bit... weird ;)