Winners of shows
 

Is it normal when winners of shows ary shy wolfdogs?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/gallery/pic/100688/
It is not in standart. Why everybody who wants can to do judge for our breed? My God, it is way to Hell......................:cry::cry:

It is also very normal in Holland :evil:.

Groette Martine.

Hmmm, really very good publicity for our breed..............
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/40853/

With this photo I would be carefull with my judgement. It could be that the dog is afraid of the other wolfdog, it could be it doesn´t like the podium.

Ina

Yes, it can be, of course. But everybody can to do fotos for magazines, to Tv, etc. And nobody will ask WHY is his tail under....The people can see shy wolfdog only. And people will think, it is normal for this breed.

i'm agree with you, and the photo has been take at 1 moment !!

but on the show in france on champion class one dog had agress on judge
and he said " no ,no it's normaly " :evil::evil: THIS ...... ISN'T NORMALY !!!!


BUT on this picture it's one moment out off the ring

Alud was in my hand in Budapest Klubshow last oktober, I hadle her in the ring in the competition for klub winner female. She was ok, absolutly handable, not agressive,not shy.
Every dog has bad moments, and everybody could make bad photos............to put it to public? ...hmmmm and than write bad things without knowing the dog...(?) hmmmmm

I would not judge that hard on a photo or two...

The same dog was at WDS in Stockholm 2008, I did not se her shy, I did take a look again now on all my photos, but no photo of her shy ;-) either way I do not know the dog in person and I would not judge her after just one meeting...

Shy show dogs and lines might be a problem, but way not just talk about that, way just talk about this dog or hang her out :roll: ???

Best regards / Mikael

I think it's unfortunate for the reputation of the CsV breed that their temperaments are so close to wolves that all their visual cues when it comes to behavior are exaggerated. What may look like very shy submissive dog in another breed like a labrador, who doesn't exhibit many wolf-like traits, could be one second of "communication" for a CsV. Wolves, and therefor dogs close to wolves, communicate their feelings through very exaggerated visual cues, and show how the dog is feeling in one particular instant, instead of other dogs who only show traits like that in very extreme cases.

Even though this is a normal thing, obviously dogs who show submissive/shy behavior as their normal character should be excluded from shows and breeding. Also, pictures like these that may show only a second of the dog's character (which ISN'T the norm for that particular dog) should be excluded from press because people unfamiliar with the breed will make assumptions. It's really hard working with a breed that is so misunderstood!

Yes...but the person who started this topic is a well known breeder and she must know the caracter of the breed, behaviour of csw as she deal with wolfdogs for ages. So I'm just wondering why she open this topic and started to cause bad reputation of this multiCH female, for her owner,for her breeder....and for the breed.
But this is not the first time and unfortunately not the last that she did it :|

This dog isn't a really shy dog but not even a dog with strong character.

She' s simply a dog without a secure point of reference : she travels all around the world with several handlers only to win an exaggerate number of silly championship like Bosnia, Croatia and so on, just to compensate the ego of its owner.:cry:

Hello Vicky, please read about this breed more. It was made like working breed. Thear character is not closed wolves. In standart is nothing about shynnes. Shy wolfdog = bad wolfdog.
Jasmine (Edit Molnar), please don´t write about me, I don´t it too. Thanks

In my first article could to be some other fotos too, because on much shows in the world I can see similar fotos. Winner of show with tail under stomach. Very good imagine of our breed.
It is not saarlos, it is czechosl. wolfdog. Much owners, breedes forgot it and much of them don´t know first idea for making of this breed.
But it is always the same. Breeding without bonitations, breeding without selection, every wolfdog is good for breeding.................But it is so easy and good for producing of pups. I am not suprised.

Vicky didn´t write about charakter but about temperament and I think what she ment was body language. I very often have seen the situation that somebody thought a wolfdog is afraid of something because it´s tail was down and maybe a little bit curled to the inside, knowing these dogs in daily life I know they aren´t shy at all, they haven´t been afraid, they simply didn´t like this special situation in this very moment but passed it without any problems. The reason for this is that they show more body-expressions of their emotional status than a normal dog, simply because they are still able to show it anatomically. The human taste in bodyshapes has robbed every breed of a lot of it´s ability to show body-signals out of anatomical reasons. It has nothing to do with charakter it is only a lack of body function.
Being used to wolves and working with them every day I do see that already our breed has lost some of this language, seeing hundreds of dogs of all breeds every year I can see that they still show a lot more signals than other breeds. The latter is the problem in judging for people that aren´t used to wolves that much but used to other breeds.
One of my dogs won´t carry it´s tail high all the time on an exhibition and very likely will carry it down on a podium because she doesn´t like to sit in noisy surroundings being bored all day. She is able to do several week old cartrails through the center of a very big city through heavy traffic over several kilometers and has proofed so several times. I can surely say she is a true working dog even if she may carry her tail down on a podium.
Dogs can´t be judged on charakter out of one very special situation.

Ina

I would like to pay your attention Hanka (Kaufmanova), that to write bad things and put bad pictures in an open forum is not too ethical and not too intelligent things.
And this is not the first time from you.

This is exactly what I was saying. I know full well that shyness is a trait that should be excluded from the breed, but I'm saying that this is a quality that should always be judged while actually, physically, in front of the dog. I am in no way confusing CsVs with wolves, I see the same exaggerated body language every day with my siberian husky, as well as others that I have worked with, and the behavior is constantly misinterpreted by people who don't understand this language.

The way I see it, a dog is allowed a photo or two in one instant where something in the situation made them unsure. However, if this shyness is a dog's normal state, and there ISN'T a time the dog is confident, then THAT is the dog that should be disqualified.

I'm not commenting here or there on the dog posted in this thread, because I don't know the dog. However, I am commenting on the use of one photo to judge a dog's character.

Edit, Hanka, if you have personal issues you might want to clarify them in private...otherwise it becomes boring for us, sorry.

As for that dog, surely to see a dog with tail under belly is not nice, but if the tail under belly was not the usual position of the dog but just one moment, then a moment is not important to judge a character of a dog.

I've seen Alud personally and I can assure you I can find thousands of dogs shyer and with a worst character than her.
Maybe she's not a lion, but definitely NOT a negative example for our breed.

Massimo

Hi,

what was the intention of this thread anyway?
I've seen dozens, probably more dogs behaving like this in certain situations they didn't like through the years.
Dogs from every country and every breeder.
I've seen dogs during the bonitation trembling and tail under the belly while measured, but receiving an Of in the character test.
And I've seen dogs perfectly trained for dog shows, but not able to cope with everyday situations.
Old and well known stories, so again, whats the intention?
And by the way, as everyone already wrote, you can't judge the character of a dog by one picture on internet

Michael

So far I think it have something to do with the fakt that Alud is winning some dogshows, probably only because she have a handler well know world wide also by the judges.

its nothing new, as very fell judges know the breed in question for really make a judgement.

I really don't like this comment...sorry but I think you should have thought a couple of seconds before writing it...
I am NOT a friend of the owner of Alud... so I try to be as objective as possible.
I don't care about the shows she won in Switzerland and Greece and Lithuania and Slovenia...but Alud also won BOB at Special Club Show in Bratislava with Oskar Dora...
Maybe Oskar Dora is not good judge enough?? Maybe Oskar Dora sees only the handler and not the dog? maybe Oskar Dora cannot tell a shy dog from a normal one?
Please...I think this thread has no need to continue...
massimo

Or maybe he saw the show, not the dog, sorry I do really like Oskar, but he is human as anyone here.
Sorry Masimo, but I know very well how works a professional handler, as I know that they can make even the worstest dog in the world a nice exemple in the front of judges, and the worst, make this dog winn, no wonder why as its their work.
Maybe its because it still didn't arrives to CzW, but this kind of behaviour only brings problem to several breeds, and people must be warned.

It would be high time to OFF this topic,before you hurt more people!!!!!

Hello Massimo,
I only answeerd, I did not start attack somebody :o))
I want only write: (and I know I write the same again)
If dog is normal, sanquinik, selfconfident, it has not "bad moment" and nobody can make bad fotos of this dog. I am only sad, when will be more and more normal to see on shows wolfdogs with tail under. Not care WHY. If they don´t like podium, noise on shows, etc.
If I will have shy wolfdog, I will not take him to national, international show, where is much other people, cameras, maybe TV....It makes bad view to our breed.
I can take shy wolfdog to some clubshow, because club show is more about results of breeding, seeing to genopool,.....
I don´t want degrade our wolfdogs to level of Saarlos.
Czech. wolfdog is working breed and I am sad, when I see, it is more and more only pet dog for garden with wolfish face.

Sorry but this is simply not true as everybody knows who knows about dogs. I have seen dogs of yours having a bad moment and could have made a bad foto if I would have wanted to.
Dogs are living beings and have bad moments like we do...

Ina

I have got some bad pics about Hanka's dogs.....;-) shell I put it to this forum?????
Of course not....this is the big differences inbetween the people who just like mix the shit here and those who want use this site realy just for the BREED!

Hanka, your words are very true in theory but in reality the % of dogs who correspond to this description is minimal...
If I was judge of course I would give a lot of importance to dog with tail under belly as a negative mark...but tail under belly is not only sign of shyness but also of moment or uncomfortable moment.
I have to agree with Ina, all dogs can have "difficult" moments.

I don't care and don't want to see bad photos of Hanka's dogs, and would strongly appreciate if we returned to a more relaxed attitude. After all we are humans and not wild wolves... (aren't we?? :roll:)

And I repeat once more, a dog like Alud doesn't win shows with Dora or Stefik if it is really shy or just because of its good handler.

For me this is absolutely my last post on this thread.

I do not know this female, indeed since a number of times I see his name arising at the time exposure. Also, Hanka, I completely include/understand your fear on the character of dogs and having however excel result… I also put myself questions about the titles gained by dogs in France…

now, I think of why a dog adopts this posture :

* all access, as you think it in connection with this female, fear

* at the time confrontation, many dogs carry their tail in this way in order to protect their genitals

* at the time of play some also adopt this posture in same optics, protection of genitals

not knowing this female, I cannot to express on it, but just to have enormously possible assumption…. :rock_3

Do Hanka know enough this female to conclude so quickly on its character?? already saw in a context except exposure??

my male Apache very recently passed its bonitation, it had the note Of

http://www.horvathimre.com/media/CBE.../G_9075138.jpg


this dog fear of nothing has, a super character, and in exposure, when it crosses a Yugoslav shepherd or other guards of herd it adopts sometimes this posture. I always am very astonished by that coming from him


to finish, the photographs are very misleading, and always does not reflect the truth, I believe is not needed; to stop with that. If one day I cross this female, Alud, I could make me an opinion I think just :rock_3

Helo Martiou, Massimo,
I must write always the same. If I will have shy dog, I will not take it to some show, where other people can see shy wolfdogs. It is bad for our breed, what was made as working breed.
All my dogs what I have in my kennel in my hands from puppy age are normal, not shy. And I can take them to shows with good feeling. The dogs, what are back to me in older age and I see they are not OK, I try "repair". But: everybody can read about them on my web. I write there open about character of all my dogs.
I think, everybody can have bad fotos of other dogs in gallery. Or no and they are liers. And- of course- from some kennels have people more fotos of shy dogs......
But base idea of this article is always the same. The showing of shy dogs on podium or during afternoon shows is not good for our breed. Not care why this dog have tail under . Maybe these dogs are normal in other situation, but nobody look at them at home. The people on show make fotos of dogs on the podium and these fotos can be in dogmagazines and much people can see it.
Bad is- much people what see wolfdogs on shows in the World things, it is normal character of wolfdogs. Tail under stomach. Brrrr. And if we will do it always and always , more and more people will have bad meaning about this breed.
Is it the same wolfdog what Mr. Hartl and Mr. Rosik made for czechoslovak army?

If I had a shy dog of any breed (luckily I don't 8)) I wouldn't take it to a dog show either, but for entirely different reasons than you, Hanka. Why should any decent owner expose his/her "best friend" to stressful or uncomfortable situations again and again?:shock: For me animal welfare is more important than sick ambitions of the owners or what other people think of the breed!!!

Hello Hanka, I said includes/understands your point of view, me completely I know this female that on photograph, can you say to us how is it in the life of the every day?? except exposure??
of course, it is preferable to present well in exposure dogs in their head, but even with a bad character, it is good to present dogs if they have a real potential for the reproduction, what do you think?
That timorous dogs obtain titles, c' is the choice of the judges, and like to you it done, with each one its own opinion on this subject…

Success also is this, success exposes to the critics.They take so many prizes and so many applause but the critics and the observations cannot be avoided.We are not able to pretend to receive only praises and compliments.

Alud is a dog so destinated to the success that she had a particular life( as justly it noticed navarre), she had to pass a great part of her life around for the europ with extraneous people and among different stresses.

I have seen her the first time to campobasso,(15/09/06 she won all:bob,bog etc...), she had the tail among the legs(she wosthe only dog present in open class female). When I drew me near to her in a moment of break she showed very timorous and reserved .


I don't know if now she is improved but in good part I find the observations of Hanka are in right.

Sad story to read
 

Please everyone, dont judge a dog, because of a picture!!
I´m quite new on this forum, and I´m sad to read all your comments on this tread.
No one knew why the dog have the tail betwen its legs, a normal dog react this way, if there is trouple nearby. Other dogs show their theeth, and lay their ears down, shake legs and hold their tale bagwords. I found this dog more dangerous, because it will bite before you know. A dog with tails betwen legs, are a surrender, you can read clearly.
My son is driving Speedway, when you take photos on the driving area, the picthure never tell the real story, someone looklike they are in front, when they are in the corners, but when they are coming to the longside, you really see who are in front.
If a judge has given the dog a price, it must be allright, the judge was at the showplace this day. and found the dog allright in the moment.
I breed horses, and when we are at showplaces whit our horses, one of our horses also can have a bad day, or someone can take a papparazzi-picthure of them in a stupid moment. I can put some wery stupid picthures of one of our horses on this tread, if you like, picthures taken of our selves, the same day the horse won everything!!!
So please don´t judge, if you was not there.