Artificial insemination only solution for the breed in spain?
 

Hello

Seeing a little the evolution of the race in Spain I have seen a high increase in the number of copies (from my slightly worrying point of view), right now all young people and of similar age … and especially much brothers … without genetic changeability … I do not comment on the genetics in if of the Spanish CWs, but there is not greatly where to choose since brothers are the majority.

With this thought some Spanish breeders strain (now and in a future) in bringing new blood by means of litters, to leave genetic changeability in Spain. On having been so isolated from the center of Europe, our best option is the Artificial Insemination (AI) … used enough in other races and countries, but being a problem in this breed.

Why is the acceptance of the AI so difficult in this breed? Being this a method that can help to the increase of the genetic changeability and to the evolution of the breed

regards

I am agree, the situation in Spain is very dangerous for the breed. Because is Spain not have many wolfdogs, the breders repeat the same litter many time. And some breders that want to do litters with new blood, quality blood, have the problems of higt cost of fly and many club forbide the artificial insemination. Is this, the artificial insemination the only way for the countries that is to long of the center of Europe

I don´t know how much females is in Spain. But: is it possible to make a list of females? And somebody can look what blood are the females and you and all breeders can lend some ideal male for all spain females. Maybe every year one male for all females? (If you want save money?) shipping of one male is not so expensive, if all breeders which will want use him can pay it together.......
Bad idea?

Maybe some male dogs wil be in spain for a holiday :) , or you can come to the male with the female and have a good holiday also :)

You can also use fresh sperm that is sent by a courier, althought you cannot keep the sperm in a good condition for a long period

In this case I would say.. go for it and use AI , better than inbreeding to much

hi, you live in Spain so what is the problem? you can travel to any European country without any bother? I live in uk and travel to Europe to get bitchs mated, and from where you are based you dont require lots of crap we have to do just to leave and re-enter the uk, Breeders that i use can let me stay till my bitch is mated, even if i had to sleep in the car so what, there are good people all over Europe who will go out of there way to help you, but you must make some effort yourself, Spain is a long way from places in Europe, i lived in Spain for two years and i drove to uk to pick up one of my wolfdogs from La Hoya to Calais takes 22 hrs with 2 drivers, mant European breeders travel many hours to get there dogs mated,I dont see the problem being you can not get suitable dogs or bitchs, or that you can not get breeders from Europe to help, sounds like you dont want to travel///////////, Pacino

I talked about to that, IA with cooled semen… not congealed, diminishes a little the espermatica quality but even so she is very productive sallying of good I number. (here in Spain did one in that puppies left 6 being female beginner), if the veterinarians are communicated and the owners of the reproducers… at the moment that the female is in its point, would be to call to the owner of the male so that they did the extraction to him and on the following day already would be the inseminada female

The problem that espongo is not mine only, is what I see in Spain, right now I do not have intention nearby to which my bitch has a litter, since for me it is technically impossible both for time (more or less it coincides his ideal moment with my examinations of the university) and for money (it is not cheap to go out of Spain to do an amount ... in car you lose time and plane there are many problems (the majority of the air companies so big dogs do not accept animals and any either).

I speak on behalf of some that want to breed with head and not to cross with any CWs or always to repeat the same litter (being this the easiest thing since they already have a male) ... I do not know the bitches of the rest of europa ... but those who I know have varied jealousy ... they can be with a hormonal concentration one week and overnight to be prepared for the insemination ... also it is necessary to excuse the Spanish veterinarians since in this race they use dogs' parameters of similar weight not being in the end his day of insminacion the one that was predicted in a beginning (having to change tickets of plane or days of permission in the work)

I do not question the amiability of the persons:) I am even very grateful since someone of them have helped me very much, when I was for my bitch and the friendliness that I saw am grateful for it very much.

For trips I want to return there and to visit persons (that will be easier since I will not have to look when my bitch will be pointed)

Sorry Solowolf, I went to Lituania for Ituborys Girios Dvasia, and to Germany for Emba von der wolfranch and the past month I went to Czech Republic for to do one mate. Do you think that you can say me that the problem is that we don´t want to travel?

I see that you went to Holland and France for mate with your dogs. Next to UK.

I think that the problem is that the breeders should be serious and responsible. The breders should use the very good hd lines and, to use the most wolfish wolfdogs and with good character. This is my idea for breeding.

How many wolfdogs are with this characteristics? very very few. And too long from Spain. The fly to travel is necessary. This is very expensive because you need to buy the fly the last minute and this is very expensive. The AI is the unique option for the serious and responsible Bredeers of Spain.

If you want to breeding only for breeding, without the best wolfdogs, is very easy and not expensive. If you want that improve the breed the AI is necesary.

Really interesting topic...

In the US, I have wondered the same thing...it's not a problem here yet, since (at least to my knowledge) the first litter has never been bred (although, I have seen some ads online recently trying to pass off mixes as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes :evil: - different topic...).

Most people that import to the US choose to import females - either because they want to breed their own litter, or want a dog that they believe will have an easier temperament. So, the pool of males becomes small - dogs that would be good for breeding much smaller. And good breeding males from genetically diverse backgrounds...very, very low.

Obviously, driving to Europe is out of the question from here - carrying an adult female (or male, if it was an option) by airplane is possible - but stressful to the dog, and very, very expensive. Also, most airline companies ask for reservations for dogs well in advance - this can be difficult to time with a female's cycle.

I'd be very interested to see the evolution of the process and local CSV population if breeders in Spain (or elsewhere) begin using AI as a means of breeding.

Best wishes,
Marcy

The same problem here, no wonder why :p
I was searching for the possibility to use frozen semem, but seems that it still didn't develope well and the problem is not only the small percentage to the female be pregnant, as the fact we will need to anesthesie the female for make the insemination.
Mainly its about to 30% of chances of the female be pregnant with frozen semmem, I read somethings about evolutions in this area, turning possible to upper this percentage for 60% ( much better) but still I have not enough information about it.
For bring cold sperm we will have about 48 hours for transport untill make the insemination, by our rules its simply impossible as the burocracy can make you lost days for took out the semmem of the airport, sometimes you will never be able to see it.
Anyway, 48 hours when we talk about travel over continents, you wil need to have much luck to have the female in the properlly day exactly when you back home, if not have any delay.

So, the way would be travel with the female, very stressfull thing that without doubts can make the female change her heath, if be everything all right, we will need to back with the female in the correct day and still you will have the possibility of the female absorbs the puppies for stress in the back trip, pretty common in Bernese Mountain Dogs for exemple.

So, the best way would be talk with a breeder, chose a male and try to bring it here for a time, let this male mate the females and back with him after.
But I wonder how many breeders would allow it :lol:

I wonder - does the effectiveness of AI differ between different breeds? For example, I know some breeders of working dogs (for actual work, not just show - mostly GSD, but also Rottweiler, etc.) use AI here with semen from European dogs (because it is difficult in many cases to find good working dogs in the US:roll:) and they seem to have good results, I guess - or they wouldn't keep doing it, I suppose. But, I know our breed is different...so, maybe it would be less effective...

Haha - Paula, maybe we can make a "real" plan here....8) Maybe you and I can talk to our females, and convince them to come into heat at the same time - and then, we can make plans to bring all of our dogs to a mid-point between Brazil and the US - somewhere nice and with many comforts - Cancun maybe?:) And then, we can pay to bring a nice male along with his owner - and we can all take a holiday - wolfdogs, beaches, and happy times!!! :mrgreen:

Ahhhh...back to reality...in truth, I think you are right - it would be most efficient to bring a male across the ocean...

Marcy

Do you know if its with frozen semem or with he cold one?
The cold semen normally is very effective and don't need the anesthesie, but its only 48 hours for make everything after it be collected, I know some people breeder of Deutche dogge that made it with sucess, but the person who brings the semem was a "well know" person of the airport, so, they could jump the burocratic part, exactly what impeaches the others "mere mortal BR breeders" to make the IA with cold semem, but its a problem for me, different for you. :p
The main problem in breed difference is the wolfdog heath, but its not impossible when we already have cases with positive results, like the litter of La Llamada Del Lobo kennel. ;)

Dreaming holidays 8), next time, I cant forghet to play in the EU lottery if its get accumulate. :twisted:

So far I think its the better way of be sure that we will not expent a lot of money and time for nothing, because in this case, even if the male don't want to cover, we can make the IA direct in the female, with 100% fresh semmen and how many times its be need, without count that the same male can cover much more females than only 1. 8) We will only need to convince the owner to accept it :mrgreen:

ok so you are willing to travel as i have just been to Hungry to pick up dog by car as air travel i dont like for my dogs,only 16 hr drive, the dog Iused in Holland give me more wolfish looking dogs and produced great coats, this dog had all health tests as did my bitch, you want the best as do we all,you say that you want good HD lines, most wolfish looking ,good character, that would be nice,,,, you must then also agree with me on the changing of the czech as a breed as there are many variations of this breed now, one only has to look at the pictures on this site, the breed varies alot, from short coats to long coats, from the small thin to the large, also a lot more health problems over last 10 years,Ai is ok if you can get premission from the FCI,but it may be hard as the main gene pool is in Europe, I have used AI for thr Akita as gene pool in uk was low, straws from USA where sent and my vet done this it was good sucess with 8 puppies being produced,there are other types of wolfdogs now available in Europe, even in Spain there are now some, good luck with your search. i will be watching for your progress, regards pacino

I think that the insemination is a good good option for the spanish breeders. It's good for open lines, because there are many people that cannot travel to make a mount.

I found this article on the topic of AI in dogs while browsing the topic - I found it to be very descriptive (but, I am no vet, so I can't guarantee it's accuracy, or how up to date it is :)). So many considerations!!!

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com...s%20frozen.htm

Best Wishes,
Marcy

Thank for the paper. I think that the First problem that have the spanish breeders is the negative of the breeder of the other countries for the IA. Sincerely I don´t understan why in 2009 years in this breed the breeders not let the IA. Pleased anyone can say me this reason?

The point why I am not a fan of regular used AI (in the here discussed case it has a good reason) is that in very many breeds it is used because the dogs aren´t able any longer to reproduce without this help. The bitches don´t show a normal heat or fight the male, the males aren´t able to get on the back of the female in mating position, the males aren´t interested in the bitches and so on. These problems are heritable to a very high amount, the dogs are kept in breeding with AI out of the usual reasons, being a multichampion etc.
If you use AI as a normal way to reproduce these problems are likely to occure sooner or later and being realistic I don´t think that the owners of these dogs will take them out of breeding.

Ina

This is a very good point also...one that I had never really considered. I totally agree with this point. But, I guess maybe it would be less of a problem with established stud/brood dogs who had proven themselves in the "natural" way before being used for AI? Maybe this could be a criterion for males and females if AI were to start being used (and only in cases of distance, not to mask a breeding or genetic problem) within the breed...I guess once again, it would come back to the regulation of an international committee...

I guess another concern might be false identity of the male (in trying to breed mixes, perhaps...:() Is there any kind of DNA test requirement (to establish verified parents) from the FCI with AI? In the US, it is required of imported sperm (and maybe also domestic, I forget...) and also imported dogs (who breed naturally) to have a valid DNA result from both parents before the AKC will register a litter.

I am agree with Ina and Kaiku and Wildenmorgen. Certainly the AI is not perfect and will have some problems. But I think that the AI if it is doing correctly is the best options for the countries that not have many quality wolfdogs.

To go to the other countries with the female for to do the mate is very stressfull for the female and is very probabily that is not pregnat. This summer I went with Emba to Praha for to do one mate and when I arrived to Spain the fly company losed Emba. And the next day I recupered Emba. More than 24 hours one animal in one transportin without water.

Many people not want the AI. I contacted with many breders for to do the AI and ALL not want to do de AI. Is better that the breders of Spain repeat many times the same litter? Is this the better???? In what year we lives?? Sincerely I don´t understand it

I travel many times with my dogs 12-24 hours(by train), just for shows, exams and holiday and I never have any problems with stress, because my dogs are use to traveling ...all I want to say by this, all(most) dogs can be trained for everything, if the owner want it strong enough ;)
...another option could be to pay the owner of the stud dog to travel as I think stress would not have any big effect on the stud dogs performance and it that way you would eleminate the risks by stressing the female in such a way that she will not stay pregnant.

Just some thoughts !

Rolf

ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION

13. Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before. Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases. In the event the bitch is to be artificially inseminated, the veterinary surgeon collecting the stud dog’s sperm must provide a written certificate to the organisation which keeps the stud book with which the litter is to be registered stating that the fresh or frozen sperm was indeed produced by the agreed stud dog. In addition, the stud dog agent has to give, free of charge, the documents listed at Art.8 (a-g) to the owner of the bitch.

The costs for collecting the sperm and performing the insemination are charged to the owner of the bitch. The veterinary surgeon performing the insemination has to confirm to the organisation which keeps the stud book that the bitch has been artificially inseminated with the sperm of the stud dog originally foreseen. This certificate should also include the place and date of the insemination, the name and studbook registration number of the bitch and the name and address of the owner of the bitch.

The owner of the stud dog from which the semen was taken must provide a signed stud service certificate to the owner of the bitch in addition to the veterinary surgeon’s certificate.


... So ended that its up to the breeder ask the DNA, but even if it not be truth, the situation will be really complicate because it will put in cause the credibility of the vet which collected the semen.



You see, I have no problems at all to travel with my dogs in the car, trains and land transport, independant of the time it need, the main problem are airports, not all companies are experienced in travel with animals, not all airports in the world gives real attention to the dogs and are prepared for receive animals, as sometimes we can see pretty confusing situations, like the one mentionated by carlos.
Anyway dogs with the size of a addult CzW canot travel in the cabin, they go alone, in a box, passing for a very different pressure, speed and so on on the up and down of the airplane, shakes in the air because the turbulence, with the box handled by some different people, putted in a moving giant car together with the baggage ( sometimes more than 2 times, because the conections), believe me, its a very difficult situation for even think in training, no coment about the stress of all that.

In truth, If I live in europe I would go by car everywhere finding all so close, so mate dogs would be no problem, but I really can't be used as exemple. :p

It would be nice, but remembering that not all stud dog owners are breeders and have idea about the breed situation, selection and so on... not all stud dogs owners have time enough or even possibility to travel all that suddenly ( because the time we know the male must comes its pretty close to the one it must be already there for mate) only for the dog make "sex", because someone that he never saw in the life, that live in the another side of europe, or even of the world, need it for the breed sake. :evil_lol

I think, in Europe it is possible in most cases, to find a company who have experience with animals, maybe it will be more expensive and maybe it will not be a national company, but I think it is only in rare cases that it will not be possible to find a company who have experience with animals, but ofcourse I don`t know the exact situation in all European countries, so maybe I am wrong ?

I too think in most cases it will be possible to go by car to a stud dog in Europe, just like you wrote. ....I fully agree with you, that you can not be used as an example in this case :lol:

Nobody said breeding should be easy, but I think there is better options than AI ....at least inside Europe :)

Sincerely I am surprised that people think that is more better to travel 6000 km with one wolfdog female in the car than to send by fly the sperm and do IA. Sincerely I am very surpresed

Personally I were speaking about Europe ...if you travel 6000km from Spain, you will no longer be in Europe !
I don`t see what the problem is about traveling 2500km by car ...if your dog is use to traveling by car ?

Rolf

Ok Rolf, you have one opinion but I don´t agree with you opinion. Only one question, if you are a breeder and you have your job, why you prefer to travel 6000km in car and you leave your job (is very complicate because you don´t know when your female is in heat and you cannot to plane your hollidays) and never you would use AI?

Do you think that is posible? do you think that the spanish breders will do your recomendations?

Ahh from my city to the French frontier is 800-900km. I live in the south east of Spain

The problem is when you have a holiday fixed and can not take anytime. How do 2.500 km. to go (24 hours) and the same back (5.000 km) and be in residence (any days) for the mate?.

Not is possible for me.

Greetings

First of all, it is not necessary to choose the male who is living most far away, Italy is pretty close and have the largest number of CSW of any country in the world, it should be possible to find a stud dog there.
Another possibility could be to let the stud dog travel by plane, as there will be no risk for the stud dog to stay pregnant(due to stress by flying or what ever the problem might could be by flying with the female) as it is the female who gets pregnant and not the male, I am sure it will be same price if male goes to the female or if female goes to the male and it take exactly the same time :)

Rolf

Rolf, but in Italy is the same, any days for the mate. And depend of the place of Italy, about 2.000 km.

I think that the AI is very good for people like I.

Greetings

Same ? last you wrote 6000km ...France or Italy is a lot shorter than 6000km.(ofcourse depending on the place). 2000km is not a long way to travel for mating, in my opinion. I travel with my dogs several thousands km. every year, just for shows, exams and holiday ....by train !

I am sure it will be possible to find a stud dog who will be able to fly to your female, if it is a problem for you to fly or drive the female to the stud dog ...or maybe best choice will be to import a stud dog(just like Nebulosa wrote earlier) ?

Personally I don`t like the AI-concept, in any case it should be last choice, as I think all other options is to prefer, but that is just my humble opinion !

Greetings Rolf

I not say 6.000 km, I say 5.000 km, but in total, go and return. For example I have Roma +2.000 km. France is more near. But, if I like a dog for my female of Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland..........?. I like more the natural mate, but if not is possible, I think that the AI is a good option. Is my opinion. ;-)

Anyway, the more problem is the stay, I have holidays only in summer. If my female into in heat in other date????.

Greetings

Sorry it were Carlos who wrote 6000km, but still I see no problem ?

So you must travel even longer... but why not choose stud dog from Finland or Brazil ? :lol:

But it is possible ! ...my mother always told me that everything is possible, if you want it strong enough. ;)

Have you considered, some of the other options mentioned earlier ?
The easy solution, is seldom the best solution and sometimes the solution who seems hardest, is actually the more easy and better solution, in the end ...in this case I think it is so 8)

Greetings Rolf

One notice only :

FCI International breeding rules
"...Artificial insemination is not to be used on animals which have not reproduced naturally before..."

Please dont break basic breeding rules with our lovely dogs !!!

Pavel, I'm totally agree.

Its not for agree or disagree, its simply rule, what must keep all CsW breeders as well.

I'm agree with not break the rules. ;-)

And only lack this part:

"Exceptions (either the male or the female has not yet reproduced naturally) can be made by the national kennel clubs in certain cases."

So, they can do it even if the male and the female still wasn't used on breeding, but they will need the agreement of the national club in this case.

Anyway, I disagree completly to make AI in dogs because "its too far away" when you can still go by car.Sorry but travel is a huge oportunity for breeder to meet other dogs and compare the quality, see what you need improve in your country, for me its a completly nonsense you use IA for avoid travel because its "too far away by car", sorry but travel by car is compeltly safe for you go and mate, as you have no difference in preassure, no different people handling the dogs box like a potatoe bag and, if the dog is well trained, no stress for the dog ( that mainly enjoy the trip).
As breeder people may have idea that will expend a lot of time and money for mate their females, its breeding, its improve the breed and its needed, if you cant or you don't want because " its too difficult as its far" so, don't breed, when you choose the breed you knew it was a new breed in your country and that needs a lot of work still, teorically everyone imagined that they will need to travel a long way for mates and bring new blood, so the road and the car isn't somethign new.

there is a saying that he says: " wanting is to be able " (querer es poder in spanish)

If it is wanted you can do in not alone car 2000 km, but the triple one if you propose it ... but it is necessary to think that they not all have the possibility of saying in the work that they cannot go because it has to go with his bitch to X km to mount it with a male

Let's not speak about the expenses that it bears.

This post began with the situation of Spain (as it is said here, Spain is different (to Europe). Few litters they have been I begin and 2 of the breeding ground more ancient are only repetitions...

In other races it is quite common to do it (both with refreshed and frozen semen), and common practice in the veterinary clinics (it is necessary to have special products but the same companies of transport of semen they usually give it)

One does not ask that they all should do IA, only they attract attention of us the rellazo towards her, being that it gives good results and helps to the genetic local changeability

If everybody buy first CsW and want to breeding in the future, then must know any rules and eventually problems with it. Buying the dog just with planning, that I must have some speciality or breaking generaly breeding rules is, polite to say, miserable :( .

I like very much this post, I see very intelligent and razonable argument for not use the AI.

I think it is quit interesting, that non of you who have been speaking for AI, have commented the other solutions, now when you have so big problems by traveling to the stud dog...

Have you even tried to ask owners of stud dogs to fly the dog to you, so you don`t have to travel ?
Have you concidered to buy a stud dog(or more), which can be used more than once and with different females ?

Greetings Rolf

I think this is stated simply, and perfectly. :) Even living in the US, if I had a bitch I was hoping to breed, obviously my preferred choice would be to actually use a stud dog and not AI. Natural breeding is very important and lack of its use can do more harm than good. Not that I would expect CsVs to ever get to this point, but with English Bulldogs, for example, AI (and also C-section birth) is the norm because the breed has changed so much that 90% of the time, this is the ONLY way the dogs can be bred. We would never want something like that to happen with the CsV!!

However, I think a note should be made that quality is definitely a factor in this. The biggest effort should be in finding an appropriate stud dog that would blend well with the bitch. I don't think quality in this regard should be sacrificed if the owner of the stud couldn't send him over for a "vacation" :rock_3 if there were a less desirable stud who could. I think that the quality of the dogs being produced should be a major, major factor in the decision to breed, and if the case came up where no suitable stud could be used naturally, that's when AI should be considered.

We all have to understand that as in everything that matters, there are going to be grey areas, and decisions really need to be made on a case by case basis, and not broad, sweeping generalizations one way or the other. :)

I like this option, but it's a slippery slope and one that should be considered heavily before putting into action. While I'm sure you'd get a lot of useful litters out of the stud, you have to remember about genetic diversity. Going this route, you may run into the same problem of having a lot of repeat breeding. However, it's definitely a great idea, especially if the stud is an adult already and fully developed, so you know how well he would work with the females you'd want to breed.

Something also to consider is that "popular" stud dogs have been a problem with bottle-necking genetics in dogs in the past. The German Shepherd, for example, the dog used in producing CsVs in the first place, has this exact problem because in the past, popular, high-winning studs were used so often that they really shrank the genetic diversity in the dogs' pedigrees. GSDs are plagued with a host of genetic problems, and it's quite possible that the use of stud dogs in this way has played a factor. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I remember reading before that the ratio of studs to bitches in wolves in the wild is close to 50-50, but with purebred dogs, the numbers are greatly skewed, with far less studs being used than bitches.

Just something to think about! :)

To bring to males studs is a good idea, but since Vicky has said, you do not also solve the genetic changeability that is about what we "complain" in Spain, since the same would happen but with this new male.

To rent a male ... good, this year all the litters (if it comes to them well to the breeding grounds) would be almost equal ... in a country with many breeding grounds good can come, they not all will do the amount with.
I prefieron a Natural amount, but it is necessary to say that the IA is an advance for the increase of the genetic changeability and development of the race, (being scarce in the CsV). The post was alone to open the minds for the veterinary advances to help

As last, in my opinion ... it is difficult that they leave you a rented male, for the simple one I throw that it is an alive being ... to that his proprietor has fondness, I have not bred CsV but when I send my female of husky (when his days keys prevent me from going for study or university) to house of the male stud remains a gap and a worry until she returns... Do not tell that there is many male's proprietors that he does not like that strange dogs remain in his houses, especially of particular proprietors

A little of common sense!!! Thanks Tuky!!!