Information about the list of the stud
 

Good afternoon,
I'd like to know if there are new laws about the list of the STUD.

Which he must have a male dog to be inserted in this list?

- Must not they be us dogs without bonitation?

No, because in this list there are much dog whit never bonitation.

- Must not they be us dogs with results of the dyplasia B or C or D ?

No, because in this list there are much dog whit result dysplasia B and C.
Is there straight some dog without not even the results of the dysplasia.

I don't understad what is the requisite that a dog must have for being inserted in this list.
Are there also perhaps some restrictions for the dogs that are not perfect of elbows?
Possible and respectable.
But because he must not be in this list a dog that, it for example, has the results of the elbows ED 0-1 (what does it correspond to a C) and must he be us a dog that has C of dysplasia instead? Or, worse still, why must be a dog that doesn't Have the results of the elbows?

In all list of all language there is this information:
Stud dogs:Bonitation code:Hip Dysplasia (HD):Offsprings:
And not elbows result.
If is to much important the elbows result, so much to remove dogs with ED 0-1 (not prefect, but almost perfect), because they are not also removed dogs that don't have the official results of the elbows?
Dont' have a elbows result is a lot of worse to be elbows little not perfect, is wrong me?
And still, the evaluation of the elbows ED 0-1 mean that 1 elbow is perfect (A) and 1 elbow ok but not perfect (C). Why must a dog with a result of the kind have removed while who is C still has displasia there is?

Mine is not at all a polemic but a verification and I would want to understand better

I'm sorry, but I have not Understood The Logic, can Someone Help to Understand me?
THANKS, YOU I'M SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH.
Riccardo Lubrano

Ciao Riccardo,

As far as I know, only official HD-result is needed to be at the stud dog list !

No bonitation or ED-results is neededand ...and if results of HD is A-B-C-D-E does not matter, the dog only need official HD result.

I can only say that I wish the list only would include dogs who have official HD + ED + Bonitation results.

Best greetings Rolf

Hello, I think it is confusing because there are different rules in each country.
There are countries where you do not need bonitation to have a stud dog. Or you do not need ED results. In the end each owner has to decide whats important for him/her. I think it is great to have this information availible- it is just up to me, what I do with it.

And when I find a good dog I can still ask the owner about what I want or need.

Maybe it would be interesting, what it takes to have a stud dog in the different countries of europe? What the rules are? Then you can decide if it makes sense, or not ;-) or if you want more or less.

Regards,
Kerstin

Thanks for the answers.
I think that it is true (as Kerstin says) that it is the ower of the female of dog to ask other information however if it is interested to a stallion.
But it is true also that the list of the stud of this site is also a list that directly or indirectly publicizes a dog.

They must be us of the requisite to insert a male dog in this list and they agree.
But the requisite must be correct and equivalent for everybody.
Lately a male dog has been removed in the Italian list with official results HD A and ED 0-1. Motive (perhaps) is because the dog to 1 elbow is not 0 but he is 1. Only 1.
Ok if the laws are this the laws they must have respected.
But the laws must be correct for all!
Why a dog with HD A and ED have 0-1 (almost perfect) been removed while they are continuing to be us dogs Without official results of ED?

If the results of the elbows are very important and fundamental, they must be important for all the dogs. Should not be the dogs without results of the elbows, or I am crazy to think this normal consequence to a law?

Why dogs are there with HD C? What equal is to the 1 of the ED...

For me is not correct.

I hope to be explains well me

I ask at all if somebody know other information about this situation.
And if somebody write what think about all this situation.
Regards from Rome :)

Riccardo, i don't think the ED 0-1 is the reason a dog is removed from studlist.
There surely is a different reason.
Margo will reply to you about it as soon as possible (i suppose...)
massimo

Massimo I'm agree with you, in fact I'm waiting for an answer.

Is Strange however that of all the people that live this world of ours and that they live ours beautiful website anybody has not almost answered...:roll:
I'm waiting....:roll:

Hello,
I'm still waiting for an answer from the persons responsible of the site.

Ciao Riccardo,

This is ONLY a private website and owners can do what ever they like, not that I agree with this example, but when websites are private(even if it seems to be an official and objective website), it is almost impossible not to make their own politic and personal dislikes influence the shaping of their website which in my opinion is a shame for this site as it in many other aspects seems to be equal for all.

I know for example that Czech breedingcommitee(still waiting for answer from Slovak breedingcommitee) have no problems with Italian, Slovak, German, Poland, etc. bonitations or HD/ED results, ONLY the owners here on this private site choose to make it a problem :roll:

Too bad that new owners and people who don`t seek answers elsewere(official sources), will actually belive all what is written here is facts.

Greetings Rolf

Please can somebody answer to my question?

I still saw too many "stud" dogs that are in the database absolutely WITHOUT ED results !

This is really unfair. We should think that No result is a bad result..
I m not a great fan of parents of Voice, but i agree with rolf and riccardo, this new politic seems very strange and unfair and seems to reward only who hide the results.

Please don't hide behind the rules of each country, as in Italy there isnt any requisite, even hd D x hd E can have pedigree...if we make hd and ed is only for our sense of responsabilkty.

So I please the new Admin to remove me asmoderator of italian forum, because I really dont agree with this new "administration"

I absolutely recommend ED x-rays and our own younger dogs are all ED-controlled. But our older dogs aren´t. The reason is simply that ED was an unknown problem of this breed when they were x-rayed and I see no sense in doing it on an older dog that never had any problem and has only free offspring. So when we ask for ED-results we should remember that some dogs are not x-rayed out of the same reasons and simply look on the results of their offspring.

Ina

They can be what they want, BUT to be honest there should be some REQUIREMENTS that are the same for all, not changing anytime.

If the requirement (right or wrong) to be in the stud list is the ED 0 exam, every dog without this exam should be removed together with dogs that don't fulfill this requirement.

Hi Admin and thanks for the answers.
Would it be interesting for all of us to also know your name, don't I think that he is a true secret?;)
If is possible.....

I am not interested in to speak anymore of genetic HD or ED.
We will See in the future if your theory is exact.
It doesn't interest in me anymore to know where you study your theories.

You owe, kindly, to explain to me as does to know with certainty this thing if so many so many reproducing dogs of the list don't have the official plates ED


you must excuse me but your question it doesn't deserve answer.

I repeat : why have not they been removed by the list all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows?
I hope that this time you will respond to this question.
The site to remain a transparent and believable site, since there are these new rules, he must be impartial and correct with everybody. he Owes Therefore to Remove The Dogs That don't Have The Official Plates Of the Elbows, Stings.

question to Admin: if I had not made ufficial the plates of the Elbows of Voice and I had sent only to you the plates HD with result To, would Voice still be in the list of the reproducers?

I agree with some of the questions asked on the forum, why only remove the dogs with not so good ED results, and leave all the dogs on the list with NO ED resuts ?
How I see this is that you punish the people who made the ED plates and you are giving a privilage to the people that don't make the ED plates.

for example: in Holland you don't need to make the ED plates to get a pedigree for the puppies, Yes HD results is needed, but also with HD C you can breed your dog with a HDA dog

So Why is wolfdog stricter than some breeding clubs and official authorities ? I think that people can make their own disision to want a puppy yes or no from a litter anouncement on this forum.

I love the wolfdog.org site for their litter anouncement, but I think i can make a good choice for myself If I want a puppy from a certain litter.

Of course ! :roll:

The problem is very simple : why dogs without ED are in the list ? Are they ALL good ? Sure ?

Sure you don't know !

I think this is a big mistake for WD and there is no weakness into recognize and correct mistakes.
So please do the right thing and clear off the list the most (all?) of Czech and Slovakian studs...or put again into it the poor Voice.

Again...the Italian stud dogs with HD-C are removed from list.

Ok.

But...in all other country dogs with HD-C are still in the stud list :roll:
I don't think a polish or german or czech o slovak HD-C is far better than an italian dog HD-C.

Don't mind, that here in Italy is "someone" has good friends in right places, his ill dog will be HD-A or B, not C.
Dogs "C" or worser are "C" for sure (or better!)...as in other country.

to answer only a noisy silence ...?:roll:

hello,

i see the italian stud dog list, there is one dog with HD C :rock_3

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/6353

the problem for the X-ray ED , there is not official reader, we are late it above... :roll:

all this talk is rather useless as we are speaking to ourselves.
It would be quite useful somebody simply replied "you are right, there are some mistakes, we are updating the studlist soon, within for ex. 7 days and rules and data will be correct and clear"
That would be enough for us I believe.
I don't need ED 0/1 to be included, as long as rules are clear and dogs included in the list really tested.
Let's not forget that the majority of CSW in the world are in Italy and Italy is also the potential biggest buyer of CSW dogs...not only from Italy but also from Czech, Slovakia...Poland...

Massimo you are always so diplomatic 8)
...but I would still like some questions answered, as I think that this is the purpose of a forum !

Rolf

No - the rules is different: we remove all ILL dogs from the list. So on the stud dog list you can not find dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, PRA and ED.

The problem was: the breeders (owners of ill dogs) DO NOT INFORM the puppy owners and other breeders interested in the dogs as stud dogs that the dogs have the problem. We already received complains from breeders who covered their females and they accuse US of "advertising" of ill dogs. As you can see there are different parties: here you can see one (real family: rolf, massimo - check the database and you will see why they keep toghether). But we receive also messages from the other type of breeders.

We know that many breeders do not check the heart, eyes, or ED. We know some breeders cheat with the HD results. And we know there will be still some dogs who are ill but not "uncovered". But it do not change one thing - dog with diagnosed illness is an ill dog.

Instead of admitting a mistake you are mentioning family.
This is RIDICULOUS, until I know the identity of ADMIN i will NOT consider this user as reliable in any way, sorry.
My only family is the one I live with, Rolf is just a friend, as I have many many friends who I often do not agree with. But maybe this is too complicated for you to understand.

Anyway...try to think, from the top of your ADMIN position...
If a dog with declared but not proven ED 0 goes on the stud list and a dog with proven ED0/1 doesn't.... it's automatic that you are PUSHING people NOT to declare bad elbows... as many other may be in the stud list.

By the way, i am NOT against taking away ill dogs from studlist, so you see i do not agree with Rolf. I am just against putting dogs with UNPROVEN health in studlist.

Last thing... this new administration is slowly pushing away members who have always contributed and helped this site, with info, pics etc.
If that is your choice...free to do it. But wolfdog.org has worked until now ALSO thanks to those who helped build it up for free...

I keep on not seeing the answers to the questions that I have done to ADMIN.
If this is democracy tell you him you.
A site of information must Be Correct it is Democratic, even if it is a private site.
I repeat the questions so all can read her:
?????
????????
????????
????????


through which certification on the page of a dog he succeeds in knowing that the dog doesn't have problems of epilepsy or problems of heart?
You as you show that a dog doesn't have problems of heart or epilepsy?

it is all right, every owner / breeder can be different from another for pure good sense and desire to work well. But if you don't remove all the dogs without the plates of the elbows don't have kept on making publicity to dogs that thing can be sick is it this incoherence?

it is really this the thing that I don't understand and that I find unfair. You have established some criterions (without informing all the person of this site, before wrong thing) according to me wrong but that I must accept and them accept.
But the criterions must Be Equal For Everybody.
You paint (your give answers) you to you as a site that is trying to give correct information on the health of a dog that is able' to reproduce. Ok, but in reality all of this' it is false because the health of the elbows of as dogs of the list of reproduction is not known.
WHY?'
Why do you want to appear as good informants on the health of the dogs and then not Dates the information but do you remove only who seems you??????
why?

I don't understand how is possible to make statistics with ED and declare a family responsible of it, if there are so small data to compare !
Czech dogs don't have ED results, Slovakian too, Germany France and Poland so and so.
The main data for statistics is only from italian dogs...so what ?

Please, for WD to remain an affordable website about wolfdogs, we NEED some RULES that are the same for ALL.


p.s
I'm not "familiar" of Massimo in any way, but I agree with him 100% and so many users and owners of italian forum.

To be honest I don't care if you think that ED 1 is worse than HD C, I don't think that THAT is the real problem.

The problem is that you encourage breeders to hide ED results... from a breeder's point of view, Riccardo has been unnecessarily honest. Foolishly honest... because he sent the result and "your" honest breeders don't even make the x-rays.
But Italians are the cheaters, don't they?

The only opinion I would like to read is the one you should write as an answer to THIS question:

Rolf please, stop "fighting" about ED classification...we need an answer to only a simple question repeated so many times, but that can be formulated in another way :

WD encourages breeders not to make the ED x-rays ? Yes, because the message sent is : don't do ED, don't do PRA, don't do bonitation, don't do anything than HD and your dog could be a super reproducer...

I don`t want to fight about ED classifications, but I will defend my self and my scources when we are accused to not know what we are talking about.

In this I agree with you 100%(even that we are not family). :twisted:

Greetings Rolf

Nebulosa you have seen the problem, we are not talking about Ed, if it's or not a genetic matter, we are speaking about the stud dog list and the rules...
When there was similas discussion about HD, Margot asked the evidence of the HD result, you send?You are in the list, you don't send?You're out!
This is an hard lex but it's clear. (dura lex sed lex...)You propose another way...ok, we can speak about this..
But This ADMIN refuse to speak about this matter!
He delete dog from the list, (only the italian one?) without an explanation, without a notice to the owner of the dog...
It seems the revenge of a child....not the actions of a man (or woman) who loves the breed....
I'm nothing, just an owner...but I'm really disappointed...
For me wolfdog.org was a lighthouse between the interests of the big breeder...but now?Now seems just one breeder like the others...

Paula, at the moment we have too few cases of x-rayed wolfdogs and most of them( ED x-rayed) are from Italy.
In our country no requisite is requested to breed, but many owner and serious breeder do ED test since 2001..as I can remember !

Again, as Stefano said, all italian stud dogs with HD-C (apart one, forgotten!:lol:) were removed from stud list too but in other country this is not happened. HD-C is not good anymore? Or some HD-C are more HD-C than others ?
Of course there are many (too many?) stud dogs in Italy, but our country is the most big producer of csw in the World, so this should be normal.
-----

I think we will miss the administration of Margo...may be after years, but she replies everytime to everybody on every question.

I'm not talking principally about the stud dog list ( even because I only saw it now for see about the HD), but about the ED problem in the breed.
We also don't need to make any exams for breed any breed, by our kennel clube rules we only need the pedigree of the female in your name for be breeder and be able to make pedigree dogs. :lol:
I really won't disagree is all studs with HD C get out of this list.
I was suppose to do it last week but I had no time for select the posts, I will separe this topic and pass the talk about ED to health forum. ;)

Not perfect but better than nothing
Now we can argue about ED genetic here, and leave this one only for Stud dog list

it is simply Ashamed that an answer is not received, we wait. And according to the motion in which the person responsible of the site will act they will be understood so many things.

can someone respond to my questions, or it is impossible to communicate?
The question that more it interests me an answer is always turned to ADMIN and I hope that he have the education to answer me PLEASE:

- if I had not made ufficial the plates of the Elbows of Voice and I had sent only to you the plates HD with result To, would Voice still be in the list of the reproducers?