Czech Mutara-Gate: WHO IS ARMIN?
 

OK, as you for sure already read the Czech breeding comittee have huge problems to find out the true about Armin.

So again - we have three possibilities. Here are some hints for you:

1)Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee):
Armin is German Shepherd Dog.
Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also GSD from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice.

2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee):
Armin is a CzW.
Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree". It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry")

3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin):
Armin is an Mix.
In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes:
Czech:
"Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv".
English:
"I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place".
So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin.


As you see the breeding comitte can not decide what Armin really is. Please help them - please look on the photo of Armin and take part in the votting pool. Choose the right answer....

http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/d.../768_Armin.jpg

Is this the only picture of Armin?

Joyce

No - here you can find more:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/d5536.html

And take also a look on this page:
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto3.htm
You can find here many photos of Armin where is better to see that he has nothing to do with CzW or GSD.... 8) Best examples:
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0208.jpg
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0207.jpg
http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/foto0217.jpg

Thanks Margo.

Joyce

Very nice dog indeed. Sure this will be a valuable addition to the breed.
Looks like old working-line shepherd. Not a show-dog. Very interesting. 4th generation progeny after him will not harm the conformation of the breed. And much better than a show-line GSD. Much stronger backline and structure than the common GSD.

fenris

Sorry fenris, but it is not good place for jokes... :roll:

Have you ever saw a old working-line shepherd? I 'm sure - NOT... :mrgreen:

...but with HD-problems by his offsprings. Congratulation - he is a real help for our breed. :twisted:
And if we take into consideration that Czech CzW lines still have huge problems with the faults typical for German Shepherd Dogs (what even Hartl wanted to change) after the Czech Breeding Comittee will use Armin they also can change the name of his offsprings from "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" to "Czech Shepherd". :mrgreen:

Czech Shepherd Dog
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/d...udrey-Lupo.jpg

....we can already start to write an breed standard for them.... :cheesy:

Margo forget to write, that this creature on picture above get just on 2 Club shows a valuaton "very good" (VERY GOOD CONFORMITY WITH CSW STANDARD !!!). In FCI show rules is exactly declarate, which dog can get "very good" :
"... VERY GOOD may only awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed and which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated, but none of a morphological nature. This award can only be granted to a dog which shows class...".
See the picture above and you can see, how "typical" CsW Audrey Lupo is ...

And who were the judges, who valuate so high Audrey Lupo ? No amateurs or beginners - Jindrich Jedlicka (CsW breed Seda eminence) and Monika Soukupova (CsW breed z Molu Es) both members of breeding committee of CZ Club.

Armin....
 

I don't know WHICH kind of breed is Armin.

Anyway :( HE IS AWFUL :(

Lupina is better, still too white and too much far from CWD.
And I ignore all about her character and her healthyness.
But she is nice. I love wolves.

Still I would like CWD with the character that we know, so who knows if this new wolf-blood will keep it or destroy it...

But Armin is really BAD, rough and out of CWD proportions , and you say even unhealthy...

:shock: U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E....... :shock:

I saw soo many mix in state kennels that were really better than this, but soooo many.... :frown:

bleah :P

I like wolves but also dogs... :) And if we use this criteria than I like both: Armin and Lupina... :) For sure the owner loves them and they are nice companion for him...

.....but....

....if we talk about them in the context of CzWs than Lupina and Armin are untypical and 'awful' and too far from CzW...

Armin isnt that different from the original shepherds used in this breed?
The "army-shepherds" used are at least very different from the show-shepherds seen on most exhibitions. Shorter legs, smaller, compact, strong and dynamic.

fenris

Hello everybody,
that is not the CzW which I wants. I have one CZW of these. Between my dog and Armin a difference is such as day and night. If this is the way of the breed, then I will buy a guinea pig!

In serious: This breed is a verry dangerous way!

I hope I see you somewhere with nice dogs............

Greetings
Markus and "Bragi von der Wolfsschleife"

Once again
 

Hello everybody,

I understand that we need some breeding guidelines and that we dont want HD dogs in our lines. Bud when I read the discussions and what everybody has to say about he dogs I'm asking myself wether people are fighting for the breed or for their ego. And to say that a dog is awfull by its picture.............................


Once again these kind of discussions don't belong on a public forum and should be discussed with the officials in private. All of these bullshit statements about who is doing what and look at the results again we tell that this isnt good and that is dangerous and so on and so forth. Try to imagine what people will think when they are not familiar with the breed and people.

Kind regards,
A dog lover,

Jeffrey

Hello Jeffrey,
here I will tell you what I mean what is dangerous: In Germany the police has shot down an wolf. They thought he was a mix between dog and wolf. Everybody has know that was a wolf, but not the police.
I wrote a letter to the “State of Minesterium for national security”

Here is an excerpt from the answer:
“This dog was an bastard.It was a breed between wolf and dog, often Husky, also a hybrid.These where breed in the Czechoslowakian Republik and there are verry considered biting and agressiv.”

As I already said, this is an official answer to a wolf-firing from a German Minesterium. So I think this breed is dangerous.

It that what you want? Whithout permission of the FCI?.

When someone will breeding a new line, he can propose this by the FCI. But only whith German shepherd and European Wolf!!!!!!!

….by the way: Armin dont look like a German shepherd or a Czechoslowakian Wolfdog. Look the voting!

Please excuse my englisch. It is not so good.

Kind regards

Markus

Hello everyone, Just thought I would add my thoughts aswell. This animal doesnt look like a CW to me or a Czech Shepherd. I own one of these and they look nothing alike. It does look like some kind of hybrid though. I dont think the animal should be used for breeding. Who knows what kinds of things its inherited. :wink:

Armin looks more wolf than dog and more like a wolf/Siberian Laika than GSD or even Husky cross.
Simon

Simon,

I can´t help but have you ever seen a real wolf? Armin looks as much as wolf as a poodle does! I know Armin personally, saw him few times and I can assure you, it is normal non pedigree German shepherd of unknown origin.

Mirka

Mirka,
Having only seen the pictures of Armin,I would say that he is as you say but would think there may be something else in him as well as GSD but it is definately not wolf,everything about him is wrong to contain wolf DNA in the last 100 years.
Paul

Mirka,
Yes I have a wolf,in Alaska and at zoo's.I have also owned and bred GSD's,maybe in Europe a GSD looks different to thse we have in Australia,cos to me he is not purebred anything but a big bulky cross breed of something.
Simon

hmm ...
 

:evil: first: HE IS NOT AWFUL!!!! :evil:

every creature has its own charm!!! how can you dare to say something similar!????

second: i live since i'm on this world, together with German shepherds, siberian huskies and a quite long time with Vlcaks. I'M QUITE SURE THERE'S NO HUSKY IN IT!

i do think, that Armin is a mix .. and i think a very gorgeous looking mix!

third: it does no matter either! as long as he is treated well and has his beloved family around him ..

so long
wolfwoman

Wolfwoman,
I totally agree with you.
Paul

The wise thing about Armin x Wolf descendants is exactly the fact that Armin is a mix. Probably Armin is more heterozygous than the purebred CWD. Armin x Wolf cross offsprings are less homozygous than a cross between a pure CWD x Wolf. And it is the offsprings (Mutara) that matters. They are the ones that will be bred to a pure CWD. Not Armin himself. When the CWDs are more linebred, inbred and homozygous than the "Mutaras"; the CWD genes will dominate the offsprings in less generations than if CWD would be crossed with a purebred, linebred Shepherd or (often very inbred) zoo-wolf. So braking up the wolfs homozygousity with a different dog can be fortunate before crossing it to a purebred CWD.

The next wise thing about Armin is that he has good working qualities and temperament. A very important factor when breeding to a pure wolf. Cant you see that this is strategy - dogbreeding is a tedious process. Go look at the original Working-Shepherds used to create our breed. Genetics is more than a beauty-contest.

Armin is NOT an ugly creature. Such characteristics are not descriptive of a working dog. Those of you whom cannot differentiate more exact than between beautiful and awful are in danger of reducing our working breed to a simple show-dog!.

Fenris

That is often the big problem,breeds get hijacked by the show people and are bred to conform to a standard which is changed to suit the market and all working ability is lost,two breeds I work with have suffered badly from this and it is now very hard to find a real working GSD or Rottweiler hence everyone is turning to the Malinois.
Paul

Hi,
Wolfwoman I don't think Armin is awful,I just think he is a crossbreed.I, like Paul, totally agree with you.
We humans can learn alot from our animal sisters&brothers about love,community support and respect for each other!
Whether Armin is pure or not is the question posed,he may well possess qualities that could enhance a breed but thats by-the-by.Everything has a beginning somewhere and it's not how it began but what it brings to our lives thats important!
Simon