Czech Mutara-Gate
 

hi when is the new crossings taking place? what effect will this have on the breed with the F.C.I., with new wolf blood introduced it will put an end to the czech in the u.k, & most likely in some other european countries, we have fought hard for long time to turn the views on people from the words ( wolf hybred ) to (wolf dog) it states clearly in u.k kennel club rules & asks ( have any crossings taken place from breed register closed ) i fought hard to get this added, now it seems it has all been in vain, the gene pool for the czechs is surely big enough without new crossings, problems arise in all breeds from inbreeding & the constant use of the same stud dogs, new crossings will no dought improve things in the short term , if the animals used are o.k ???? but if breeders dont work together to help each other then it will soon be back to square one & a waste of time, lots of breeds have developed from four inital crossings & are doing well i have bred dogs for 30yrs & problems can be bred out but people must work together & i think in the complete interest of the czech a health data base should be set up dogs that are bred from & produce problems should be made knowen to other breeders, we are all breeders, have i bred dogs that have produced faults ? of coarse i have, & so has everyone else !! we should NEVER CONDEMN A BREEDER or certain lines when faults appear, like epilepsy, pra, ect we as breeders should try & help to solve the problem, not cast aside others who have been unlucky, for untill the day comes that we DNA test every dog before we breed then every time we breed we take a chance that all will be o.k, best regards paul winder

Re: new crossings
 

When? :) We put the votting pools to collect our users' opinion because such crossing already took place in Czech Republic. You can find info about it in the database - there are three dogs with the kennel name "Mutara". But it's hard to describe them with "crossings" because "compromitation" is a better word for it... :oops:

Why? As you can read in the breed standard the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is "crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf". It is written very clear, or? ;) Now guess what the Czech breeding committee has done... They registered in the register to the breed book of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs three dogs which are offsprings of a white Tundra Wolf and a mix (the owner of this mix wrote in a magazine that it has the blood of a Alaskan Malamute, but the people from the Czech breeding committee sometimes say it is a GSD(-mix?), sometimes they say in it a CzW without papers :shock: ). When you will take a look on the photos of this (wolf)dogs you will see that this crossings have nothing common with our breed.... Simply said: they are untypical. And you will understand why the Slovakian Club (which is guarantee of this breed by FCI) and the German Club already send to Czech Club official protests. And also many breeders and owners in CZ Club don't agree with this "experiment". :|

But don't worry: none of the self-respecting breeders will ever use this dogs or ever breed with such crossings. So you don't need to be affraid that this dogs will ever capture the Europe. Maybe there will be some people in CZ which will decide to use these dogs but I don't think it will expand. Who would buy such crosses if there are so many nice, typical CzWs in this country...? But I promise you: to be sure we will collect info about such dogs and publish it here. So if one of the breeders will try to sell such puppies we will warn people that they are not buying a CzW but a crossing which is a wolfdog which we are common in the US and that have nothing to do with the breed called "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog".. :evil:

Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

For those of you that didn't know, in the dog show held this weekend in Prague, "Speciální výstavy ÈSV", a canadian wolf hibrid participated to the competition and won the open class.
WHY THE F***K DO THEY ALLOW A CANADIAN WOLF HYBRID PARTICIPATE??
WHAT IS THE MEANING??
DO THEY WANT TO "IMPROVE" THE BREED WITH THESE WOLVES??
DISGUSTING
(Netiquette: I'm shouting loud!)


My whippet Alvin lives with 2 wolfdogs and was bred up together with many wolfdogs. He think's he's a wolfdog to.
Next time I go with him and I want to be judged.
He's below the standard but very brave!!
MASSIMO :bigcry2 :flop :bigcry2 :nono

The whole special dog show was a huge comedy (article soon). The only good thing there was that BOB get nice male Last Navarre. The rest was a case of connections, politics and incompetence.

I already filled an official protest to the hands of president of the Czech CzW Club about this dog show and judging the mix Ave Lupo Mutara and giving the CAC title to individual that is not CzW (I show dogs for a long time but it is the first time when I wrote an protest).

Re: Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

This is the most crazy thing I did ever hear in dogshow world... :shock:

What are the FCI rules about these very strange things??

When it is allowed in the country of origine that hybrids can participate in dogshows like real CsW's (and even can win!), it can also have a lot of consequences for new governement rules about CsW's in other country's......... :( :ehmmm

Mijke

Re: Wolf hibrid CAC!!
 

The solution is really easy - if they will breed with this dogs and register them as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs you just have to speak with your Dutch Kennel Club to forbid import of CzW from Czech Republic. Sure it will also hit innocent Czech breeders but it is the only way to solve this problem if the Czech owners and breeders will be not able to solve it by themselve.... :|

Now i have to say something.

For me DNA test is best solution to take out all problems with purebreed and with "mum & dad"
I strongly recommend every breeder take DNA from their dogs, (puppies) only to make it sure, it is really purebreed. And what i mean, to make it sure for future new puppyowners, not only for breeders self.
DNA test is necessary ex. to breed GSD in Germany.

Some part of puppybuyers will be breeders in future and for them is very important to know what is behind their breedingdogs.

Of course, way to take DNA test is different in every country, even i heard that in Europe some kennelclubs ask blood/hair sample from BREEDER, if owner suspect purebreed of it's dog. And that is no sense. It must take by vet, or kennelclub itself.

For me, is not so big matter is somebody have mixed dog, even if there is mixed dogs in pedigree of mine dogs, but important is to know, WHAT THERE REALLY IS. And of course, important is that mixed/pure wolves is so far that i can register/show/breed my dogs. (if i looked breeding/showdog)
Of course if i looked pet, it can be Wolf X Dog

I wonder was this show UNDER F.C.I ?
and what will F.C.I. say, as they heard what happened?

If it was unofficial show, i guess, it doesn't matter so much, but with official shows under F.C.I must be careful, we can't start to make any problems with them.

By the way, this mixed dog looked very "doggy" in pictures, for me, example "Viki Passo Del Lupo" looks more wolf, than this one, which have pure wolf as it's mother.

Hereditary and Genetic is still big mystery..


-Suski-

Susi,
what you say makes sense but I do not understand what is the sense of using CANADIAN WOLVES??
Even if they used carpatian wolves it would be strange but CANADIAN wolves I really do not understand why.
It lookes to me that they are deviating a lot from the original purpose of the breed.
You replenish the blood in a race if there is a reason.
Is it for Displasia? Do CZW have too much Displasia?
It all sounds strange to me.
First bonitation made to these hybrids.
Then winning in dog show.
Someone is up to something strange, after 4 or 5 generations they would be CZW but completely from a different line.
I could decide to take a siberian wolf, mate her with my Oliver.
Continue mating with wolfdogs and after 5 generations have a pedigree.
Would you be happy to have siberian wolf in one of the dogs I would be giving (others would be selling!!)??
I don't think so.

Surely Margo knows if this show is under FCI. I think it is because the winner had CAC.

Massimo

Ah, I just forgot the craziest thing of all.
The father ARMIN is NOT a wolfdog!!!!
He's a german shepard mix.
Isn't it crazy!!

http://lupinavlk.tripod.com/

What do the clubs of other countries think about this??
The slovaks, owners of the race standard?

Massimo

You know - some people in CZ are living in Matrix. They had a bad dream - now they say the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is very ill breed with a lot of problems. They say it is not possible to find a Wolfdog without HD so they have to fight against it or the breed will die. It is really hard case of megalomanie.. ;) And also far away from the reality. If you look on the statistics you will know that the only problem is in thei mind. ;)

What they want to improve? No idea. When you look there is nothing what can be made better using Mutaras. And lot of things will be worser. Much worser. But the founders of this idea don't care fo it. They just want to have a lot of fun...
Thy say they want to improve HD results but I know that at last one of the Mutaras is not HD-free so this are just lies.

Good idea. Many from us have at home not only Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but also mixes and other breeds. Maybe we should make also fun and apply them for the next Club Show in Czech Republic. I await we will get "Excellent 1" and CAC of course. Maybe I even will stop with showing CzW and go to the club shows only with mixes - I think by some judges I will have bigger chances with a mix than with a purebreed CzW... ;)

In the form they made it? It is forbidden. But the breeding committee already broke a lot of FCI rules and also the rules of the Czech Kennel Club and even the Czech Wolfdog Club. But you know how Mafia is working... ;) If a member of Czech Club writes a prostest friends of the breeding committee from second group in the board of the club say: "there are no reasons for a prostest".

It is very good solution and we can think about it in the future but now it is almost impossible to go in this direction - here it is pretty hard to make the DNA tests.
But in the case of the mixes it is easy because we know all kennels which will breed mixes, we will know which stud dogs were used for them and also who buyed the puppy. When we will know about it we will warn the people and also puppy buyers not to buy puppies from this breeders and not to cover whith the males which we used for 'Mutaras'. Now it is easy: there are two females - one by J.Jedlicka (kennel 'Seda eminence') and second by Nada Sebkova (kennel 'Mutara'). We already know which dogs will be used - after it we will publish the names here so the CzW-breeders will know which dogs they should not use.
I think it is important to warn people because it will be horrible to pay a lot of money and just get not a wolfish purebreed CzW but a Husky looking mix.

I'm also curious. It is also on the way because garant of this breed by FCI is Slovakian Wolfdog Club and they are strong against this mixes.

It was official show with CACs recognized by the Czech Kennel Club. It is really interestings that in CZ it was so easy to register mixes because the breeding committee broke even the Czech Breeding rules... Is there nobody to control it if the people are not cheating?

You right. There was a man which said he had a Collie-Akita mix and it looked exactly like the Mutaras. This dogs have thin, long legs, head similar to Akita Inu Mix (long ears by side, wrong mask). Character similar like by Husky - not possible to say trainable.

No, it is not the craziest thing. Just hear this:
the people from breeding committee say it is not a German Shepherd Mix but "old line Czechoslovakian Wolfdog". You know why? Because the owner from Armin buyed him in a village near Libejovice. Libejovice was one of the army kennels which bred CzW. So they say it is POSSIBLE that one of the dogs excaped from this kennel and was the father of Armin... :stupid

But the owner of Armin wrote in an article in Czech dogs magazine that looking on his body he thinks Armin is Malamute Mix or something like this....

Sense? There is no sence. Ah....you also forgot to write "using WHITE CANADIAN WOLVES"

Because they have no idea there is difference between CANADIAN and CAPRATIAN (EUROPEAN) wolves. We aske for it and their answer was: what's the difference. Both are wolves. :banghead

There is no reason. We have enough different blood. Just take a look on your country - you don't even need to use blood from abroad because there are so many wolfdogs in IT from different lines (maybe not good visible but this dogs are there) to breed healty dogs for a long time. The same is in other countries - the cooperation between breeders goes good and there is no problem if there is not engough variablity in one country because it is very easy to find good stud dog abroad and use him.

No. The stats look good. But I saw the stats made fo the Czech Club members and it was really a huge manipulation... :|
There is other thing in CZ - they have problems with too heavy dogs (with suspension skin, open lips, wrong movement). But is is not problem by the dogs or breeders but by the selection - some of the club judges prefer only type of dogs which is contradictory to the breed standard (sometimes I think they never saw breed standard) because they say such dogs look more masculine. :?

There is more. This mixed have already "breeding list" - so soon they will be used for breeding. Or maybe they are already covered.... :evil:

I don't think they will be ever similar to CzW. So it is possible in some years you will import a puppy from CZ which is shy and agressive against other dogs. And after 2-3 years the puppy will became ....white. Why? Lupina (mother of this litter) had wolfish colour when she was young. But Canadian Wolves differst a lot from European Wolves. They have for example special gen which is responsible for changing the colour. So sometimes black canadian wolves became white after 5-6 years. I'm surious if members of this Czech Breeding Committee will be responsible for it and if they will pay compensation to owners of all this incorrect dogs.

We already though about it. We decided we will cover our bitches with Malinois to have better working abilities by our dogs. Our friends want to coved their bitch with Collie - to get better coat. But Husky is also good - you will get by the puppies nice small ears, short tail, and nice head.... :mrgreen:

Why after 5 generations? They were judges in the open class so it means according the Czech Breeding Committee they are already recognized as right Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.....[/url]

Hmm. I wonder same thing. Why use canadian wolves?
Was it easier to get than Karpathian?
Was it more nice than Karpathian wolf?

During these years many breed had go to "show type"
and for many people canadian/european wolf is more nice than Karpathian wolf.
For me, Karpathian wolf is one of the most important "mark" in our breed.
and makes difference ex. with Saarloos.

Dysplasia. It is very big problem, but i think, (like also many vets here) that is not only hereditary problem, but
also how you feed your bitch as it's pregnant, how you feed/keep your puppies, and how new puppyowners will feed/keep puppies.

I think, as bigger kennel, more problems. Too less time for individuals. Momentally we have 10 dogs, and 2 people to take care of it.
It is very expensive to feed young, growing dogs with good, balanced dryfood (In Finland meat is extremely expensive)
It's also very demanding to get your young dogs grow up healthy. No matter about breed (with large breeds, of course)
Most hardest thing is to find GOOD loving homes for puppies, with people who really want to listen to you with your feeding instruction, and what you can do, if new puppyowners will feed puppy on their "own way" (often couse it's cheaper) if they are too hurry to go on with puppy (ex. compulsion excercise). I have noticed also very big difference between dog livin in a house with garden, and dog livin in apartment. Difference can see how puppy is built, how puppy is moving, and often also in it's healthyness by HD and OD. (i am also breeder of Spinoni Italiano) Think about. Young heavy built dog get all excercise leashed. Walked stairs many times daily, almost all weight will accumulate to elbows and hips. Think about wolves. Free excercise on their own tempo.
I had have Spinoni (from litter of 8 puppy) mother was HD D, father was HD B, all sisters was HD C / D ,
my male was HD A, and his offsprings mostly HD A too.
I guess, HD is not biggest problem in our breed. As i solved out diseases of Saarloos,
I felt down of my chair. Such a healthy breed..? There was lot more than i ever imagine, and many other serious problem than HD.

I wonder, have CsV;s with HD D or E some problems to live with it? Or is the problem just F.C.I. index,
where best result is A? It is often so, that if you have possibility to be a winner, you must be a winner, no matter how.
Of course i wanted all my dogs to be HD A, but if i have dog with HD D without any problems, what is the difference between these dogs, except index result of F.C.I.?
Ok, that's all by now about HD. I guess, vets know much more, these were only my thoughts about this.

For me, best answers we all could get from owners and breeders of these dogs directly?

What you think about crossings of CsV and SWH? Do you have any idea how many of these are registered as purebreed?
Two totally different breed, and i can say, it is quite easy to notice mixed dog. If you are really interested in your dogs/breed
you just can see, which is not pure breed, and which is. (mostly)

Dna Test cost here about 60€/puppy, if you take test from all your puppies at same time, (if you test only 1 dog, it's more expensive)
but here it is easy. Vet take samples after had check chip or tattoo, and send samples to lab. Results will come to you by post, and also marks for every puppy's pedigree
that they really are from parents in pedigree stays.
I hope it will be easier in every country soon.

I wanted to say so much, but nobody wanted to read a book "lord of the rings" so
no more to say just now.

-Suski

still have to say something... :cheesy:

What is biggest problem at least? Character, Shyness, healthyness or exterior ?
I guess, one of the biggest problem in this case is hurry. Nowdays people want to get everything fast, and to waite 4 generations with dogs takes years. I really afraid F.C.I in this case, cause for me CsV is very special and important breed, and i really don't want to destroy it (out of F.C.I.)
We had seen how different countries can treat our breed (England, Sweden) so if F.C.I decide throw us out, what we do then? We have lot of dogs without nothing. Just pets. And all fine work of Mr. Hartl is throw away.

I must say, with CsV is more "open and honest" than with SWH. It is good to talk abot problems, and let everybody know what is going on, but i really wanted to hear opinion of Jindra, for example. :roll:

-Suski

Something really interesting is happening here!. Lots of prejudices and attitudes about purebreed vz. so called mongrels. What is positive in this special situation is that the crossing (which has so far nothing to do with a CWD as none of the parents are CWD) is not a "cover-up", but honestly exposed as a mix. This is a much happier situation than otherwise ! ??

I think it is nice to be able to see comparing "breeds" at the bonitations and shows. This should be done more often with other breeds too. We can learn so much about this. BUT THE DOGS CANNOT BE REGISTRED !!. At leas not until they have produces several generations of dogs typical in comformation and function as the "breed".

I must add that I think Suski must be a wise lady!. This HD-hysteria is truly not always a genetic probleme. And it is important to stress this fact. Even after many generations of x-ray examinations of HD, the probleme hasnt ameliorated in most breeds. Some minor HD (according to x-rays) may have serious symptoms, while some major HD can go on without reduced function. Nutrition is more important than most vets will admit. Dried commercial food is never good enough for such a large carnivoure. Also exercise is important. And do not forget (health problemes in general) that we do not know the long-term effects of all the vaccinations we inject into the veins of our best friends.

I agree with Suski that the openmindedness in the Checkoslovakian milieu is appealing to me too. I am a Saarloos-dogowner and find the secluded milieu a little hard to deal with.

fenris

Oh, no. Their data has been hidden. They appeared in the show katalog as normal CzWs - no word they are not CzWs...
You can see in the show results which appeared on Wolfdog.org the word (MIX) only because we want to show it to the people. But take a look on the official Club page and see the results:
http://www.cswolfdog.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=416
There is no word Mutara is an MIX...

And there is more - during the dog show when there was the time for the open class (with Mutara mix) the board said to the audience: "Now we make a 10 min. break so go to the bar and drink some coffee". So most of the people left the place. After few minuts (without saing anything through the microphones) they started to judge the open class and Ave Lupo. They done' good' work because only 1/3 the people were present. The others had no idea the judging is going on - so they didn't knew the Mix were judged there...

The whole story was top secret. Very tragic is, that about it was not inform the comitee of czech Club and not all members of breeding commision.
I get the informations about this "experiment" on spring 2003. I was just disgusted not only about this case, but about the situation generally (judging on shows, preference for one kennel, injuring the dogs, which owners have a other opinion, then some people from Club comitee etc.). So that I wrote oficially protest against this things. It was first time, when was information about hybrids published (see http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=276).
All 13 points of my protest were rejected. Incl. e.g. point 1., where was explain, that Mc Namar z Molu Es have a uranoschyzis-cleft palate, whats normally disqualified heavy fault. Dog get on youth presentation P3 (very good). The argumentation from Monika Soukupova (breeding consultant and same time breeder of this dog) was, that she read somewhere, that uranoschyzis must be not a genetical fault and by Mc Namar is the cleft relatively small !!!!
On the end of point of view of Club comitee is the sentence :
"... Výbor KCHÈSV shledal stí¾nost jako celek urá¾livou, v mnoha bodech l¾ivou a roze¹tvávající Klub. Výbor KCHÈSV vyzývá Pavla Hanu¹ku aby zvá¾il svoje èlenství v klubu a omluvu Monice Soukupové...".
"... Comitee of czech Club found, that the protest is whole defamatory, in many points sham and set Club against. Comitee of CZ Club invocates Pavel Hanuska to consider own membership in Club and apology to Monika Soukupova...".
As you see, the reactions of people, which are active in "Mutara experiment" is from begin very agressive and hysteric. Its very sorry, that this people have yet a majority in CZ Club comitee.
CZ Club recieved two oficially protest against the hybrids from german and slovakian Club. To german Club send answer in the sense, that "... Mutara is experiment, which have nothing to do with CsW and results of this experiment will be publish first after his end...". More funny was situation around slovakian protest. Because slovakian Club is garant the race and it was not so easy to answer only so, like to Germany. Monika Soukupova present on club meeting folowing point of view :
" ... we get protest from Mrs. Kollarova. I calling to my friend to slovakia and he said me, that dont know about this protest. So that its not protest from Club but from privat person ...". And only two facts, which make the situation clear - protest was written on oficially paper of slovakian club - Mrs. Kollarova is president of slovakian Club !!!
You see, that whole "Mutara experiment" is illegal and deceitful case. You all can help us. Activate in your clubs of CsW discussion about it and send the oficially protest against this "experiment".

Thanks for an extensive explanation Pavel and Margo . This puts the case in an altogether different light. The case is not "really interesting" anymore - I rather say a tragedy.

I must admit that it is an interesting breeding experience (wolf x shepherd-mix), but should not be falsified as CzW. You are talking about corruption!

fenris.

let me tell you that there is so much in the world that people are doing and i gues there is no way to know about it, and even if you know i am not sure that there is what to do.
i heard of this only because the person who is doing it did not know of my involvment with the bread.
there is a vet in israel that ownes a puppy of ambra and cezer. he has a very good dog. also he claims he ownes a the next generation a mix of one of ambra and cezer with a real wolf from the israel golan hights. i can tell you this wolf is differnt from the carpatian. this man was telling all exited about how he wants to continue breeding this dog with more csw. also he wants to breed he's csw with one of her brothers (same blood) because he has one of the better csw here and because for now there is no new blood lines in israel to breed. (i'm working on that part)
so i don't know what we can do about a person like this? i already let the israel f.c.i know about this, i don't think there is anything they can do.
on another subject- i used to work with a south african breed called boerboel, they are not known by the f.c.i but from what i anderstand it is by choice. they do not want the f.c.i to get a hold of there breed so there will not be deffections in the breed. so maybe it will be better to keep csw only by the origenal club.
ray

I already did send a letter about this subject to the dutch club :D

And I did explain on the ducth forum what is going on.
I hope there shall come a lot of reply's :mrgreen:

But when individual persons wants to complain about these crazy and illegal experiment (and bringing out hybrids on an official FCI show), where can they find more info to whom they can send a letters??

I think a lot of people should want to help, but they don't know how...

Greetings,
Mijke

Ray , you wrote: Only what i can say about this,
and i said to everybody just all these years:

-Think very careful to whom you sell your puppies,
-Don't mate your female for money,
-be ready to keep puppies which you can't find good owner immediatelly longer at home
-make salecontarcts with special condition (even if it won't prevent cases like this, it makes it slower)
-sell dogs as an partowning (breedingrights stays for you) if you doubt new owner even a little
-and once again: interview new owner A LOT ang again and again.
Be sure that new owner is RIGHT for the dog and Breed.

And if accident already happened.. i don't know. I just don't know.


There is just too many CsV in wrong people, in wrong hands just,
that it makes me sick! :evil:

look at the puppies list, is it really so, that every puppy can find responsible good lovin' forever home?

(just look at the adults list for an answer)

*Suski

Here's an article about the metioned dog show:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/1261.html

Hello all,
I am a silent reader for more than a year now. I found out about this breed and after researching (well, still am researching) just about decided to work on owning one. Maybe not next year, maybeenot the year after that, but as soon as I can safely say I have what it takes. What makes the breed so attractive to me is just the wolfy look coming on a DOG that can be kept and trained just like a dog. Because it is a dog and no poore wolf-hybrid creature. Condemned to a life with the bad of beeing a wolf (people shy; high prey drive, growing so much more adult then any dog, even the nordics) and the bad of beeing dog (not abel to survive in peace in some woods, being socialized etc.) and the worst of beeing in between the worlds and therefore unpredictable personalitys kept as pets. The long time I take considering is because I see the CWD needs some special time, care and space to prosper (as by the way much more working dogs need) , which includes for me to wait for my kid to grow some more and my garden to expand a little (e.g. by a new house) and -mainly because I was suspicious of the wolf-ancestry. It looked, as if the breed was stable and "dogg" enough to realy be a DOG breed (if certainly special), it had a base of good, healthy and characterwise stable breedingdog population. As a potential owner, and ther for buyer: I dont want to be afraid of getting a freaking hybrid that almost no one can keep for a lot of money for a CWD I wanted to live with me and my family. If I want a hybrid I ask for one. If I want a CWD I want to be sure I get one.
And. yes. CWD will definitely get into trouble with state laws for dogs. Many years it took to proof it is a dog breed. Much efford was put into getting the wolfs charakter traits out. It seems to me desastrous what happens, if the wolf comes back into the breed. Please if possible find at least some distinction for the non. hybridized lines, so I can still safely by a CWD some years from now.

Wiebke
(sorry for the booklength, but I think its aggravating)

Just one more quick input

PS: did you know about the genetic outfit of dogs beeing able to a certain degree of "interspecies communication" espacially with humans? For example a 4 week old dog-puppy is able to figgure out the meaning of a human pointed finger to help find some food, a wolf never is. Even if inprinted, socialized on humans etc. 10 000 years of coexistence did do some selection that should not be underestimated.
(Max-Planck-Institut for evolutionary anthropology, March 2003)

Wiebke

Hello Pavel,

of course the german club will again protest but I was thinking today that very likely this won´t be enough. I think we should try and find as many foreign-clubmembers as possible that
1. send a protest to the czech FCI section and
2. join the next czech clubmeeting to show there that Monika ist lying and
3. that they will advise their members not to buy any more dogs from the
czech clubmembers, because you cannot be sure of the genetic origin
because of the illegal methods used of the club commitee.
I am sure the slovakian club will help with that but it would be very helpful to have as much countries there as possible and to have translators for both protests and club meetings.
At least the slovakian, czech and german club can talk about that in Philippsreut, but maybe we can find some Italians, Dutch and French people to join us at the next clubmeeting.

Regards Ina

Thank you for help. You must discuss with "Mutara people" more hard, because they always present on club meetings etc. that only me and "my group" have problems with "Mutara". If I said, that e.g. in german Club Michael Eichhorn is against too, then Monika said, that its not true, because she spoke with him and he said no word about some protest !!!
If you will speaks with this people, then is always better to do it on public with othet people there., which can later give evidence, what who said.

Well, this problem can be solved pretty easily :twisted: we need to know the dates of the clubmeeting as soon as possible because of our jobs.
But this means too that the club members don´t know about the protest of the german club, do they never have a look at wolfdog.org? The letter was also signed by Michael. The next letter of protest of our club will have several copies, so you can give it to other people, I think there is no time to be polite to the club commitee any longer if those Mutara-bitches are allready pregnant.

Next club meeting (bohemian part of Club) is at 2.10.2004 in Hostivice by Prague.

Club members are inform very shamy. Of course the people, which dont know the situation believe more, whats written on Club web pages and in Club bulletin. The discussion about it on Club pages was just from server deleted, because we have just there publish arguments, on which have the "Mutara defenders" no arguments again. In this discussion was wrote, that all protests are "manipulation organisated by Pavel Hanuska".
How is possible to lie, you can see simply from answer, which send the CZ Club to german Club like the reaction on his protest (excuse me for the non-profesional translation) :
Mr. Steffen Baldamus, I think, that your doubt have no foundation, because the hybrids, which about you write, dont go and will go in any case to breed. Is necessary 4 generations, which will be very strictly controlled and selected. Meantime will be organisate many discussion and connivance, on which you can participate. About all things will be informed club members (not secret) because the supervision over all have Ing. Hartl.
Best regards
Benes"

As you see, the comitee of CZ club lie and lie. No informations about hybrids yet to club members. Everything is secret. Both hybrids are just after youth presentation, bonitation and HD tests. From this most important information was publish no one character.
And about some "discussion and connivance" I never hear. And you ... ?

Now i have to ask,
what thinks Mr. Hartl about this? Is he in it, or against it? (hybrids)

-Suski

Please lets stay sober in this difficult situation. I am sure there is more than one single point of view to this case. Do we see a cultural contrast here? Western europeans emphasize on purity of a breed. Our fancy for shows and exhibitions and the particular interest in the surface of the matter. Racism??? We better be careful.

Today "registered purebred dogs" havent been around until the last hundred years or so. Sometimes we seem to forget what a dog is, what it constists of, and what made and constructed it.

It was not conservatism and puretanism that created our breed. Those conservative people, like german shepherd folks, protested against our breed in the beginning. It is the crossing of "races" that made the vital, forceful Checkoslovakian wolfdog. It waas the openminded and freethinking men that created both the Checkoslovakian and the Saarloos wolfdogs. Despite puretanian protests!!!

All breeds need an outcross now and then. The question is how to do it. FCI has no practice to go by. Thats why breeders and breed-clubs have done this in disguise. Other animal-breeders (horses, cats, farm-animals &.c) do this regularly in a constructive way.

So what I trie to express here is that we should be a little modest in our criticism. Even in the early history of GSD breed-experience shows that wolf-blood is stabilised in a few generations of breeding. To quote Hr Stabel from G. Horowitz book on "The Alsatioan WOlf-Dog": ".....how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomene which are considered to be the result of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who absolutely had the temperament of a sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house. He tells that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolfs blood is lost in a domesticated breed.

I beleive Mr. Hartl and his friends know what they do - and to have a separat line with "mutara"-heritage isnt thad bad ??? You dont have to use it if you dont like it. The "mutara"-blood will quickly be diluted in a few generations. I guess the creators of the Checkoslovakian wolfdogs regret that they didnt take better care of the different lines from the different founder-animals. It seem to me that the breeding favoured a too limited strain out of too small number of founder dogs / wolves.

fenris

But why then use a Canadian wolf?????What the F@@##ck has a Canadian wolf to do whith Csw`s

Dear Fenris,
I understand every "experiment". But experiment must have any target and before you start it, you must make a analysis, what is target, how I want to go and under which conditions.
Whole "Mutara experiment" is more or less (isee today, that "more" is better word) a privat "partyzans action" (how we say in czech. Its mean, that is no rules, no target and no conditions for it.
First was whole "experiment" top secret. After my protest, when I publish first time some information about it, was argumented, that this experiment can improve HD situation in CZ.
Let me explain, whats "tragicaly situation" with HD in CZ. Club choiced 5 years ago new veterinary, who make a HD test for all CsW in CZ. After this changing slowly come the HD results by CsW in CZ worst and worst. First time was against this veterinary strongly Ing.Hartl and Monika Soukupova as well. It was a basic reason, why Jinrich Jedlicka steps down on conference 2000 from main breeding consultant of czech club. Ing.Hartl and M,Soukupova continue fighted against this veterinary and want to change him.
In year 2002 from night to day stoped this activity and about this veterinary was never more to hear from this persons. Why ? Because Mutara was just born and "tragicaly situation" with HD is the good argument for using this hybrids.
And whats reality with HD in CZ ? Just many time we let testing HD in CZ and same dog in other country as well. We have 2 dogs, which in CZ have C and in Germany and Poland A. We have 2 dogs, which have in CZ D and in Poland B. We have just 1 dog, which have in CZ C and in Slovakia A. And we have 1 dog with C in CZ and A in Italy. As you see, the problem will be not in really HD but in wrong system of valuation, which our veterinary used.
Now back to Mutara's hybrids. You write about we need a outcross. Please say, why ? What we need improve ? Because outcross only for refreshing the blood without selecting the quality have no sense.
So that who are parents of Mutara hybrids ?
Father is a GSD without pedigree. Its a good working dog GSD type. He is very good on tracing but absolutely wrong by defence work. Exterior is typicaly GSD. Because have no pedigree have no chance to have a officially HD test according FCI rules. Because have no pedigree nobody knows (the owner as well) who were his parents. What he can take to the CsW breed for improvement ? Do you think, that we dont have enought problems with GSD exterior signs, which are faults by CsW (long ears, long tail, not correct mask, falling back etc.) ? See the bonitation codes and you will see, that with this faults we fighting just from beginn the breeding. Can this GSD give the good gens for working ? I never saw any CsW, which have problems on the tracing. And if, then is it only fault of owner. But try to put piece of meat 2 m under ground and I guarantee you, that CsW will found it immediatelly. So this sense we dont need improve. We need improve a talent to defence work. But its very sorry, but this GSD by defence work falling totally down.
Mother is canadian wolf. Because is it pure wolf, nobody knows something about her parents. Because no pedigree, have no chance to get officially HD test. She is relatively good socialisated but nothing more. Character of wolf we dont need to improve. So that last argument can be exterior. But our breed came from carpatian wolf and not from canadian. Mutara "defenders" argumentate, hat wolf is wolf, doesnt matter, which subspecies. Did you ever seen e.G. bengal wolf or other asians subspecies ? Am not a biologican, so that I cant say more about it, but I know, that from crossing GSDxcanadian wolf came Saarloos wolfhod and its totally other dogs breed. Maybe abou the possibily problems e.G. with black or white colors can write here somebody, who have more knowledges.

And on the end. CsW is not more race, which owned czech border police or Ing.Hartl. Its a international recognised breed and from this reason belong us - all CsW owners and breeders. And so that we all have right to decide about such very seriously steps, like new line founding. The group of people, which defend Mutara dont give any informations, everything is hidden, they refuse any discussion about this thema. They only say again and again like mill ".. everything covered Mr.Hartl and breeding comission, and we believ this people 100%...". Do you think, that its a fair access ? Name of Mr. Hartl is only like a trade mark. Dont forget, that he is 80 years old and dont want to have any conflicts with people. He NEVER yet on public speaks about Mutara. Only on web are two articles about this thema signed by him.

If is Mutara seriously experiment, then I waiting published information. And if is it really experiment, which can take improvement for our race, then I will be first, who will vote for it. But yet ...

There probably is, but....

When a breeder makes a crossing with (an other breed or wolf) it is their decision and their responsebility.

But for me the point is that such important people in the CZ breedingworld, can manage to bring these hybrids in an official FCI show like these dogs are real CsW's!!!
And for me it is total weard that a hybrid on such a show can get CAC of the judge!

Even on the list of the CZ club you can't see it is a mix. Everywhere Ave Lupo Mutara is mentioned like a real CsW. :(

You did write: You dont have to use it if you dont like it.
Indead, but how will new owners know that pups of these dogs are not real CsW's?

Thanks to a few alarmed people in CZ , now we all know what is happening. Otherwise nobody had heard of this....

Mijke

The canadian wolf has certainly fresh blood. The mutaras arent canadian wolves, they are crossings with a shepherd mix. So I guess the mutaras have similarities to CzW, not identical, but similar. And it is similarities we must go for when cross-breeding. But there can be many reasons for using this crosses in stead of carpatian wolf-crosses. I cannot answer this, but I am curious as you are !. Maybe carpathian wolves are hard to come by ? But I regret to ban this before I know the reason and the true background for it.
fenris

Fenris,
your arguments sounds fine. But first question is, why we need it ?
I can tell you, what we need in character. We have many problems to reach good results by IPO, SchH or similary universal exams. Why ? Because is very less CsW, the biting so hard and rasant like e.G. GSD. Its a worldwide knows problem by CsW. So if we need something, then taking some really guard GSD from army, which is really "hard killer". Then we can with him something improve (I know, taht some people will be not agree, that we need "bitting dogs, but its only theoretical example, what and how we can something improve).
But with Mutara ... ?
Please answer on my basic question, what you mean ?

I wouldn't say it. I'm against Mutara and I'm from middle-east Europe and by the way: there are many people in Czech Republic and everyone in Slovakia who are against it.


Canadian and european wolves are different "breeds". They differ from eachother in regards to exterieur, character and genetics. I will put it simply:
Czechoslovakian wolfdog = european wolf + German shepherdog
This is what the breed standard says and if someone wants to make a canadian wolf cross then nobody will be against it. BUT the involved people should create a new breed and not try to put these animals into our breed!!!

Then I will give you more practical argument: some time ago there was a problem with CzWs in your country (Norway) and some people tried to put CzW on a special list of dangerous dog breeds. And some people tried to do the same in other countries. Luckily there were no reasons to ban CzWs and it was easy to make a protest. But with new wolf crosses we will give a strong argument to opponents of this breed and it will be only a matter of time when CzW will be banned in Norway and other countries

The Czechoslovakian army started CzW experiment because they had a special goal. They wanted to have an extremly resistent dog with perfect orientation sense and unbeatable tracking abilites. This experiment was successful and that's the only reason why we have Czechoslovakian wolfdogs. There was no place for scruples. The breed selection in
army was extremly strict and cruel. And only because of this the breed exists. Now we can't expect that normal people will be able to repeat such selection.

No, they are not similar. There is huge difference betweeen European and Canadian Wolf.

1) European Wolves are more compact & packed. But also smaller. They have different heads than Canadian Wolves. There is also huge difference in the coat. Wolves living in USA and Canada have different genes which are responsible for changing the colour during growing. Lupina (mother of Mutaras) was born as wolfish puppy. But now she is totally WHITE. And these genes are also in Mutaras (don't forget Canadian Wolves can be red, black aso.). The ears of European Wolves are shorter, and different settled (Canadian Wolves and also Mutara Mixes have ears similar to Akita Inu - hanging out).
So maybe European and Canadian Wolves are WOLVES but f.e. Husky and Malamute are SPITZs. Similar but still different breeds.....

CANADIAN/AMERICAN WOLVES
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...e_D8DD2784.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w..._DSC_0368B.jpg

EUROPEAN WOLVES
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...Pistoia/44.jpg
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...s_C24S3478.jpg

2) There is different character by European Wolves and Canadian Wolves. Canadian are more stable but their mixes are also more similar to Huskies - useless for protection or proffesional work. European Wolves are more nervous and hot-tempered but I think exactly is was the reason that Hartls work was succesfull.

3) There are many breeds which ancestors are Canadian or American Wolves. Almost all spitzs: Huskies, Malamutes, Gronlandsdogs, a.s.o. The most famous is here Saarloos Wolfhound. Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are unique - only CzW have blood of European Wolves which is visibible by them. If we will use Mutaras we can already start now to ask FCI to merge Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
Because why to have two different breed if both are THE SAME?

Hmmmm....or maybe we should compare real European Wolf:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...Pistoia/14.jpg

with

Lupina - mother of the mixes

as puppy:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...pina_puppy.jpg

and now:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/gallery/w...na/Lupina3.jpg

There is one more thing to say about it, the slovakian club is the responsible club for such decisions in the FCI and never was consulted and never wouldn´t even have heard about it without Pavel. Nobody else would have heard about it eather. If they think they really need wolfblood, they could have used European wolf with a CzsWolfdog instead of using the cross they have now. Knowing about European Wolfs the reason propably was that they are more difficult to cross, it takes more time, you very often have to let them grow up together or they won´t mate. But shouldn´t an experiment of this size have enough time to go on properly? There is enough genetic pool at the moment if you just cross slovakian lines in but I have the very strong feeling that they just don´t want to do this, there has been some very nasty talking about the other country in former times and as I know in not so former times from one of the heads of this commitee, it would be quite difficult to explain why the person uses a slovakian male now. They have a quite good male with bonitation and as far as I remember HD A one of the club members bought in Slovakia for breeding, she was told she has to repeat the bonitation and the X-rays!
And as it was mentioned before, everything was done absolutely secretly, they lyed about everything when asked, even to the slovakian club who is the only one to decide about such an experiment, who is the only one who can decide if the mutara mixes can be registered and they have been registered on the csv-list last year - illegally. They are shown as csw now, not even as registered dogs and two bitches seem to be pregnant, do you really think those people will stop their experiment when it shows its a mistake? I am very sure they won´t.

Ina

We just recieved a mail from a member of the English Kennel Club who wants to get information about our breed because of the troubles they have in England. They want to know especially if they are purebred and if there has been any wolf crossed in in the last years. The English breeders and owners desperately need help ( and of course will get it) but some days ago I would have said there hasn´t been a wolf crossed in since 21 years, they are selected for working dog abillitys, just have a look at wolfdog.org you will find everything about it - I can´t do that any longer and I have to keep secret about the mutara experiment and I am not happy about it. When I imagin the German Bild Zeitung (a yellowpress newspaper) getting onto this I feel sick.

Ina

To Pavel:
You think HD is the cause of the mutara crossings. I dont know if the hight incidence of HD is a x-ray phenomenon, or if an increasing number of CsW really suffer functional handicaps. If the latter is the case I understand the wish to add new blood. But due to your experience and also scientific investigation X ray results of HD are often false positive. If so this crossings can be an act of rush.

To Mijke:
If for any reason the mutara crossing is a positive add to our breed; I fully agree that it should take at least 3 generations of proper selection BEFORE the dogs fluxed into the registry of CsW. It is wrong to register another breed directly.

To Przemek:
I understand your practical argument. Because CsW have already been banned in Norway according to new law on "dog-keeping". The arguments against CsW was not only wolfblood but also its history and trainability as an attacking dog. The Saarlooswolfhond is yet not banned despite its wolf-blood becaust it is believed to be calmer and friendler and of no use in attacking. But new wolf-blood in the CsW will no doubt make it impossible to ever approve CsW in Norway - and even in other countries. So this is a good argument against the mutara-crossings.

You mentioned the strict selection by the army in the beginning of CsW history. My impression is that the Checks and Slovakans still practice good selection on function through their bonitation and training practices. Maybe strict show-breeding is the biggest threat to the breed??

To Margo:
I agree that there is a difference between european and canadian wolves. It is also difference between european wolves. But - if you want to improve HD I cannot see why canadian wolf would be contra-indicated. You must remember that by doing so we must breed back to CsW-lines anyway. The results will be CsW in the end - with improved hips if selected properly. We need not end up with canadian wolf characteristics.
See article on "backcross projedt" on Dalmatians (outcross with a pointer) to improve health. http://www.canine-genetics.com (scroll down to The Backcross Project). By the way; you will find a lot of informative articles on Canine Diversity Homepage.

fenris

Suski:

Yes, this is a sad truth. First of all wolf-crosses are illeagal through law. The checkoslovakan wolfdog is illeagal because of too reacent wolf-crossing and its ability to attack. Saarlooswolfhond has been spared to now, but the breed has many enemies who tries to ban it. Just say :"wolf" and its like putting gasoline on fire.

Margo:

You quoted a text from the NVVSWH about timberwolf-blood in SWH. I have excactly (by word) the same text in a book; The Encyclopeida of the Dog by Bruce Folge. I also beleived this till I consulted reputable breeders and folks knowing the breed for decenials. They reject it. But there can be a difference between the NVVSWH dogs and the dogs bred outside the Club. Maybe this is the cause of the inimical stands between Club-members and outsiders in this breed. CsW-breeders have something to learn here. SWH is a small breed with very limited dogs, lines and founder-animals. And the breed is split in 2 groups (Club-group and liberal-group) that cannot cooperate - even when the breed suffer serious hereditary health problemes (vz PRA).

fenris

Fenris - civilian breeders cannot select as effectively as the army - in army, dog-keeper is told to keep a dog or put it away and he has to obey. In civilian life, you can only suggest and as you dont provide the money, you cannot expect people do something that does not suit them. Of course, we have done a lot of work with improving the breeds character - you can see it clearlyu at our meeting, but we are already working with previously selected population.

Second thing against mutaras is that now we have CsV, which can be used as a partner for breeding with wolf, we dont need GSD with unknown origin. Also the popular belief of "blood dilution" is a very simplified view - if it worked, we would now have normal GSD. As we are now fighting recessive traits which came from GSD (HD is probably one of them, if it really is not present in wolves), the same way we would be fighting unwanted traits from canadian wolf. So use of canadian - GSD cross is quite bad, especially if we have CsV and carpathian wolves.

There was an argument, that no crossing of CsV and carpathian wolf worked - but how many were tried? If we want to do experiments, we have to prepare them. And we have to try out one solution as long as it takes to prove it is impossible (though, of course nothing can be proved in science ;-)). Now as the crossing of dog with carpathian worked once, you cannot say that easily it is not possible.

Also popular is that Mr. Hartl is standing behind this. But CsV is not only Mr. Hartl's work. Mjr Rosik did a lot of work with the breed and we have to thank him that the breed was not exterminated when it proved it was not that suitable for army as was first expected. Slovak club did a lot of work and is the garant for FCI and should have some say in this too, BEFORE any experiments start. And, any dog resulting from experiment should be showed internationally, and judged by people that have at least no connections with their producers and supporters. If the people that want mutaras also judge mutaras, how can we know that they really are good for the breed?

Hi to everibody,
first of all I've to say that, as my English is not perfect, it's possible I,ve not understood perfectly all the discussions. So, before speek about the CWD, only a answer, in many magazines or books about dogd here in Italy, it's written that the SWD is a crossbreed between GSD and siberian wolf (in a magazine is written tha it suffer warm temperature because its siberian origin); what is the truth, there is a differente between carpatian and siberian wolf?
About CWD, as I'm a neophyte of these breed, and as there is a very little literature about it in Italian (a little book from the Italian club, that written from MR. Hartl is out of print from long time), all I know is what I've found on internet, but I Know that from when the breed was recogniced from FCI in 80', it's forbidden to improve the breed with wolf blood.
How this "dog" has the pedigree?
I also agree with all that say that as the problems that have actually the English owners, why use other wolf in breeding? Also in Italy we have many problems for all the breed of "big" dogs. I can speak only about our ministers here in Italy, and as a lot of them haven' t never had, or seen, o dog in their life, if they know that somebody cross dogs with wolves at present time, and sell them, I only imagine what will happen, a mess!!! (isn' t that so Stefano and Massimo?)
It's really necessary to use new blood? It won't better to control the pairing off (it's right? I don't know the exact word) of the all CWD we have?

Laura/Vlad - there is no siberian wolf in CsW. Difference between siberian wolves and carpathian ones are quite small, but these tqo subspecies evolved separately for quite long time. By the way, I don't think siberian origin would make wolf descendants feel bad in warmer climates (I mean southern Europe, of course Sahara is bit different ;-)), because there is also a warm weather in Siberia (even warmer sometimes than in middle europe), only winters are harsher than here. And I think CsW suffers less in hot weather than most of other long-coated breeds. The coat is quite good isolation against warmth, either.

It is true, that since 1982, when the stud-book was registered, no mixing with wolf or other dog breed shoul take place (at least such puppies shouldn't be registered). But there is this problem - Mutaras are registered in "help register" which should be used for dog which are not registered, but which have all the properties of the breed and could be helpful in next breeding. So they can be used for breeding and after 4 generations their puppies can get registered normally, if all the generations were typical for that breed (no unwanted characteristic occured). So, if Mutaras get good marks (no matter who judges them, just it has to be recognized judge), their progeny in 4th generation could get into the stud book.

For Saschia,
sorry but I lead you into error, writing SWD I meaned Saarlos wolfdog, and I have only translated what was written in the magazine.
In the Italian post there is now a translation of an article of Mr. Hartl; ok, I've quite understood now, it's a sort of an experiment, but how can it be compareted in a dogshow with CWD? It had to be presented alone, not in comparison with other breed, it is the only one; this is my opinion, i don't want to convince anyone, I only ask because I'm very ignorant.
Only one thing, then I'll go, my old vet, yaers ago, said me that the HD problem, that all the "big" dogs have not only GSD (at that time he and I didn' t know anything about CWD), descend from wolves.
Is this true?

Basicaly have no sense today speaking about the founders of breed or each persons. CsW is today FCI recognised breed and so that this breed own all breeders and owners of CsW. And all this people have the right to be inform and asking about agreement by such most important steps for the whole breed.

Yes, but whats a most shamy si, that in oficially apply form of Mutara litter is by "Father" written "Armin (CsW without pedigree)" !!!

In the oficially formulation of breeding committee of CZ Club from 15.9.2003 is written (I put here the original czech text, which you can found on http://www.ceskoslovenskyvlcak.cz/art/clanek.asp?id=294 :
"Pokud budou køí¾enci splòovat podmínky standardu ÈSV, budou posouzeni na chovném svodu a bonitaci a zúèastní se mimo soutì¾ i klubových a spec. výstav ÈSV."

English :
"When will the hybrids meet expectations of CsW standard, will be valuate on youth presentation and bonitation and also take a participation, out of contest, on club and special shows of CsW."

Here you can see, how manipulated is whole situation. "Out of contest" means for Mutara fanatics, that simply participating on shows in normally show calsses and get normally show titels. This people simply made a rules, which themselves counteracting.

Dear fenris,
I think, that open discussion and publication of real dates cant hurts anything. We dont want hidden any informations about our dogs. We want introduce true picture about our dogs, which are not only positive side. Nothing is only black or white. And mor destroyed the breed such people, who inform the public only about positives by our dogs.
Believe me, I know many people, which buying CsW without deeper knowledges about this race. Later were such people very disapointed and dogs are poor - landing in shelter or rest of life close in cage.
Our dogs are not only perfect. They have HD as well, epilepsy as well, cryptorchism as well etc. CsW is not race comming from space and the breeders and owners too. We living on this planet and also between us are super openly friendly people and on other side bleeders and just criminals as well.
Hidden informations only put the problem temporary to the fog and everybody will self imagine what can be in background. Later come the problem any case back deeper and stronger. Do you think, that such situation is better ?

It's a fact that the CZ club is doing this experiment.

It's a fact that they are not hiding it completely (they done bonitation and done 2 dog shows (yes, it's not the first one).

It's true, as I think fenris mentioned, that if their experiment improves the breed without harming it, then it can only be positively judged.

That's enought positive thinking I can manage, sorry.

Before starting to make experiments on canadian wolves and German shepards, did they think about looking for CLEAN HDA bloodlines out of CZ???
If it's good working dogs they are looking for, did they even try using the best working CSW bloodlines??
It's amazing!
Compare what has been done with my example:
AIM: make a FAST wolfdog.
What do you do, look for fast wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or :
mate a greyhound with a timberwolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
AIM: make a small wolfdog:
what do you do, look for small wolfdogs, mate them and select them and then look at the results or:
mate a chiuahua with a mexican wolf and then mate the result with a CSW??
Do you understand that the whole thing has no sense at all?? It's not a matter of racism or anger against the CZ breed, it's a matter of common sense.
I'm happy with my wolfdog's HD, with his behaviour (particularly with children), with his looks, with his biting skills.
Why should I want Canadian wolf's blood in his future?? Why not selecting an experimental super CSW bloodline and use this as much as possible instead of using something which has NOTHING to do with CSW?
Massimo

Massimo,
let me little bit correcting such "facts" :D (as you see, some people dont understand yet) :

Club , how I understand it, is all members and their representants, which comes from votes. About Mutara "experiment" decided only 4 members of breeding comittee (commitee is only support authority, which have no rights about something decide, its must make only club board). The other 2 members of commitee and all members of club board was not inform about it. So that am not sure, that "experiment" doing club ...

Not hiding ? Did somebody seen the youth presentation and bonitation codes of Mutara hybrids ? Or their HD results ? We ask about it many times and answer was always the same "... Mutara is experiment and as long as the experiment will be not finished, no informations will be published ...". If somebody have this informations, please put it here. I will apologize on public for my comments.

Please again, explain to "stupid czech CsW breeder" :D, how will this hybrids improve our breed ? I never hear on yet any argument or fact about it.

"HD free bloodlines" its anly dream. It cant exist really. All our dogs comming from same grandparents and so that, all have in own gens HD. Only by some dogs are this gens dominant and by some are weak.
HD is a biggest "argument " of Mutara fanatics. But where is true ? Both parents of Mutara hybrids have not pedigree, their origin is unknown and so that have no HD tests.
Now is just fact, that minimaly one from 3 puppies is not HD free. How can I built "HD free bloodline" on improve HD with animals, which have unknown origin ?


Never. The whole population of CsW is so small, that we cant separate some "working line" or other similary lines. But its true, that by some breeds you can see more successes by working, then by other ones. But I see, that mostly is it not because the dog, but because breeder selected the owners and prefere this, who is ready to working with dog.
About "working gens" can we not speaking by mother of Mutara hybrids (canadian wolf). Father Armin is good working dog but not good in the disciplins, which we need improve. He is good on the trace, but obedience and defence is on average of GSD niveau (according the valuation of tor trainers is under the average).

Yes, your examples are absolutely excellent. But some people simply dont want understand. And for some people if is under anything name of Mr. Hartl, then believe it 100% and dont check if he really stays behind it or if somebody misuse his name only.

It's really strange what we see on Ing. Karel Hartl's article about all this...

Andrea translated it on Italian forum... Did you saw it??

THEY MUST BE JOKING....!!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

It sounds like a soap opera .... :P I swear...
It says they tried first soooo many times to put wolves with CsW... but with no results......
(????What do they f***ing mean???Maybe they didn't saw any red harts lightin' inside wolves eyes, :Rose the female wasn't a Model like, so the male preferred the footbal game on tv...????)

One zoo answered that they should quarantine the CsW FEMALE before to put her together with the wolf (IT'S RIDICOLOUS, but still, what's the matter???the breeders have surely done it to go to the Craft in England in the past, so why not for... SCIENCE????).

So it was sooo impossible that they had to give up....
They were crying in one corner but then one day..... :bigcry2
What's up?????? :shocked
Lupina had her lucky day with Armin :klatsch, the rescue of the CsW!!!!!

Someone wrote here that if the wolves don't grow up together, then the male get's too aggressive or the female hate the male....

But....

If wolf's blood was soooooo important, we are in 2004...
Artificial insemination is commonly used by all....
Last results in vet's statistics are around 90% of success with fresh seed, 80% with refrigerated.

This means that THERE ARE NO quarantine, or dominant character, or distance or soap opera problems...

NOTHING that I saw in that article about the choice that took them from discarding CARPATI to using CANADIAN wolf is plausible

And I'm really unable to find a logical reason...
In our forum I've asked Andrea, the person that translated the article in the name of the CZ Club, to ask to the Club why they didn't tried with artificial insemination.
Still no answer.... :frown:

That's all Volks...
Stay tuned... It smells really bad...

Its no joke, its reality. I ask just many times - please help us and activate discussion in your club and eventually send the protest against this "experiment" to the czech club.

In this point I mustsay, you are not right. According breeding rules of FCI is artifical insemination possible only in special cases, when just the same pair has had a puppies by naturally way and later come some physicaly problems. So that if pair dont have any puppies before, then is artificaly insemination forbidden (always I speak about FCI rules). I know, that this kind of insemination makes in many cases by first litter, but its ILLEGALLY.

Illegal...
 

They are not working in a politically correct way.... first of all...

I see somthing like "we absolutely need that blood" in their acting.

Second... as we know some breeds are actually done MORE through artificial insemination than with natural one, with FCI blessing (they know it, but shhhhhhhhhh....)
And considering problems with wolves, they maybe should say yes, expecially to avoid to spread infections.

FCI is against artificial insemination to prevent untrue paternity (but all people use it like they do with cows, pigs horses.... wasn't it better to do it with DNA control than to put it in a secret underworld?)

Giving the CAC to a F1 that is even not a normal F1 of a breed it's better than this???

Ing Hartl, even with open mind on Mutara's experiments told first he wanted to see if they were really HD free (they say they don't) and then to show animals NEAR official expo to let people see what's up...
After F1 2 and 3 if maybe they were ok so they should be used ecc...

It seems liike they have used his famous name to have his popular blessing but after that they do what they want even very far from his thought, isn't it?

In Italian forum most people answer "I'm not a breeder so we trust in CZ professional club", I think something strange appears even to those... :mrgreen: 'Caesariensibus Tiberium Pontius Pilatus Praefectus Iudaeae' :mrgreen:

And there's a friendships net stronger than breed's love.

Where do you think we should write to? To our italian ENCI or to CZ club or what?

Re: Illegal...
 

Massimo, I read today the italian forum (with translation of my friend, of course :D). I see, that maybe in Italy you will have today one "Mutara agent" :D as well. Its me very sorry, but it looks, that its my friend Margotwolf (Andrea).
As I see from her answer, she take close contact with somebody from "Mutara fanatics" in CZ (maybe Monika Soukupova) and publish on italian forum her opinions. I dont say anything against, BUT ... Sentences like "... belive czech breeding comittee, because there are profesionals only ..." are absolutely not acceptable. Its only "proclamation". Everybody may have own opinion and own mind. OK, please, let the "professionals" put on the table facts and arguments. They proclamate absolutely generally opinions without facts support yet. I can believe somebody, who shows me by discussion, that is really profesional and not only because his name or academical title. We all are humans only. I accept very much role and work of Mr. Hartl. But neither Mr.Hartl is God. And is not dogma, that what he says must be a true. And who knows him personally knows, that he shows self like normally man, who must have not always true. Today only some people, which have no more argumets, misuse his name like a shield against other opinions.
Margo wrote on italian forum very seriously facts and arguments. If Andrea is in contact with "Mutara fanatics", please her, then she translate their answers and opinions on Margo's arguments. Then everybody can make slf a image. Am not 100% as well, but my opinion is, that true come only from a discussion and not from always repeating proclamations or dogma.

Best way is, when you decide on club meeting and send oficiall club opinion on this situation to the czech club.

Fenris, by the most things in compare with your opinions - at the first look it´s a new idea t try the experiment from Mr. Hartl again with Timber-wolves instead of European Wolves (why not ?). But Timber-wolves are more shy, the difficulties seeme a lot higher of breeding pure CWD; and the existing Genpool of about 3.500 existing CWD makes it not necessary.
A bad opinion is the meaning, we need more hard killers, whatever that means. Dangerous dogs may a race like CWD faster destroy than this Timber-Wolve-experiment. One desaster with a child may destroy the legal basics for the whole population.
Regards
Ralf

I did see it also, but my knowledge of Italian is very bad :roll:
Is there anybody able and willing to translate the whole original article in english language?

I know also a lot of dutch people (and the dutch club! :D ) want to help by sending a protest to the czech club.

And I should like to have an english version of this article, so I can translate this also for the Dutch forum :mrgreen:

thanks in advange!

Mijke

Please, dont falsify my words. Nobody here wrote, that we need "hard killers". Read again my comment. It was only real theoretical example, when the question was, what we need today improve in working gens by CsW. Then I wrote, then biggest problem by training and exams by CsW is less "bitting motivation" and if we want to take a GSD again to breed, then must take some positive improvement for us. GSD take to the breed again the seriosly faults like long tail, ears, dark eyes etc. So when just use GSD, then with some character positives, which on the weight overcharge the exterior faults.
Ralf, I see, that you must be always in oposition. But please dont falsify the comments, which people write. From reaction is clear, that everybody understand, what I means with this "hard killer" example. Only you will now shows here, that we want to have a agressive dogs. Please, show us your dogs, how well balanced are. Am ready to show my dogs always. My dogs are trained to bitting as well - and not only on arm cover, but to whole body, but when are with me everybody can come and touch or let from my dogs suck the face. The best chance compare our dogs is this Saturday by special CsW show in Phillipsreuth. I will be there with both my "killers". Am just looking for your well balanced, not agressive, not shy CsW. :D

Pavel,
nobody likes to take this "war" about the training (for example IPO) for a longer time on this page - it is less than any sence.
We will agree, that the Mutara-Experiment is a big filthiness; it is not necessary to do this. And, if we shall need new blood, then please by the old way. New lines from european wolve and CWD. So far we will compare, by the way. But this problem concerns not only breeders, also the whole owners are shocked by the Mutaras. And it is also not only the problem of some Clubs in several countries (Poland, CZ for example). The Italian breeders are quit strong and seperated, and no one knows, what the hell they are doing...
RP

Pavel,
Andrea's participation to the forum in general but for what concerns the MUTARA matter is fundamental.
In our discussion there are both parts, the Mutara opposers and the Mutara sustainers (well, at least they are not opposers...)
It's a real DISCUSSION and we are not speaking against a wall.
This for me is positive.
Italian forum is probably the one with most messages. Maybe because we speak too much and also write too much. Maybe because we have the most wolfdogs...

I am not against the experiment itself.
They can experiment a monkey with a horse and call it a CSWolfdog for what I'm concerned, as long as they don't hide, they don't let it participate to dogshows, they don't try to make things "sneaky", they don't mix mixes with purebloods.
Unfortunately they have done all this, and that's why I'm an opposer!
It's good to know the reasons for which the experimentors are working, it's easier to oppose oneself!
Andrea is a good person and with A LOT of effort in breeding.
She works with her dogs (many other do not) and that's good.
Many italians are thinking that if it's REALLY an experiment and it's REALLY done to improve the race, then why not.
But all this Uncertainty does NOT allow the experiment to use a correct and analytical procedure (GS without pedigree, different wolf, crazy displasia numbers), the experiment itself has no reason to exist (maybe in a different way yes, but not like this!).


I'm not understanding, please clarify.
In italy we have the highest number of CSW, a very fast and clear communication between owners, a strong participation of owners and breeders to dogshows both in CZ and SK. What is being done seems quite clear.
I'm not a breeder but I like to explain what I mean when I write but I'm not understanding what YOU wrote. I for example don't know what YOU are doing either...but If I want to know, I ask.
Have you asked??
Massimo

Massimo,
Andrea is my friend and I wrote her just a privat email, because I think, that she have only subjective informations from one side only. And it can be a problem (for other people here - Andrea is czech girl married in Italy). I hope, that she will collect the infos not only from "Mutara fanatics", but from other side as well. But she dont doing it yet ...

To Massimo:
it only means, that the informations about the italian breeders are too thin; it seems for example, that one breeder, who have aknolowegded in fife ore six weeks babys from five different she-dogs , that he makes it only for the money. Please, i wrote it seems. I see also, that in Germany are only 7 breeders and i see the great number of italian existing wolfdogs, owners and breeders, and therefore the official informations here in Germany are needy.
Regards
Ralf :mrgreen:

Dont get it
 

Exuse me, i'm a bit suprised?

First of all I'd like to state that I don't attend dog shows for very specific reasons.

And what do I see, on the forum lots of proffesional breeders or over involved poeple start to do exactly the opposite of what should be the general idea of a dog show, i.e. the promotion of the dogs. Instead we are arguing eachother, over power, status and even money, overlooking the most important of all. On this forum specific dogs get hammered for not being a real vlack or whatever. That means that our dog group is getting attacked from within, that is what politicians misuse against our dogs.

Sorry, bud even a hybrid wolf or dog or whatever you want to call it, will be ascociated with our wolfdogs. So please be carfull about statement surrounding our own race. Even the hybrid wolfs and its owners should get support from us and they should support us too.

For me this is an exelent excuse to not attend shows and promote our dogs just by showing poeple how lovely, exteme thrustfully and safe they are.

I noticed, walking my dogs, that poeple without looking to a dog, just looking at its eyes get scared, agressive or whatever. This is because they dont know our dogs. So if whatever hybrid walks along, it wil be ascociated with our dogs too ans so on and so forth.

Be carufull,

Big howl,

Jeffrey

Be aware of article
 

After writing my first respond, I read the second article, this fully supports my statements.

People, please be aware of what you are saying and doing, it aint about the most beautifull dog its about promotion of our and comparable dogs or hybrids.

Howl,

Jeffrey[/b]

Here a short consideration!

A crossing between shepherd dog and an canadian timber Wolf ?
In his origin form the Sarloos Wolfdog is an hybrid of german sheperd and canadian timber wolf!
Yes I know maybe it was not the right way how this breeding do that but in the end he has a pure lawn legend Saarlos Wolfdog in his origin look!

But if it wasn't an Canadian timber Wolf may this breeding wanted to breed a new Wolfdog race!!
Sorry I dont know how difficult and how the laws are to create a new racestandard and which peoples are permits to do that but in the end its a new dograce! Or not?

Greatings
Mike

No, no. By introducing fresh blood we dont create a new breed. It is something that should be done now and then in every breed. Try to understand what a dog-breed is. It is NOT a separate species - only a variety of a species. To develop and conserve a breed is all a matter of testing, selecting, testing, selecting, testing, selecting...........The pedigrees and the heritages are not goldstandards - as genetic variation may drift you off anyway.

Please read "the backcross project" by Joanne Nash. You find the article on http://www.canice-genetics.com (scroll down to the article.)

fenris

My dears,
the discussion (specially from fenris side) have no sense. Nobody is against "refreshing the blood". But as I just wrote - owner of CsW race is not Mr. Hartl, breeding committee of CZ club or somebody else. Today is the race international recognised and owner are every owner and breedr of CsW. Such prosess like "blood refreshing" may consult before starting with minimaly all clubs of race in the world and if the "Mutara fanatics" today says, that its only our domestic "experiment" then may consult it with CZ club members.
About the whole "experiment" decided only folowing persons :
Ing. Nada Sebkova (breed Mutara)
Jindrich Jedlicka (breed Seda eminence)
Monika Soukupova (breed z Molu Es)
Ing. Karel Hartl

About decision were not inform members of CZ club board and members of breeding committee. Whole "experiment" is yet secret, no informations about HD results, bonitation and yout presentation codes etc.
So that discuss here, if is "blood refreshing" good or necessary or not is no sense. Basicaly "Mutara experiment" is done just from beginn against all breeding rules and club rules and in this sense is illegally. Sorry, we lived long time under the dictature and we are more sensitive on democratical principles. We dont think that "end justifies the means". All illegaly steps still be wrong through their targets are positive or doing in goodwill. Sorry am just so and I cant change self ...

I get the idea that some people are trying to talk good wat is wrong!!!
The whole project stinks and is against all rules and regulations,so dont say its good for this or for that,if they want to improve the Csw lets do it the right way and not with some secret stupid experiment!!! :x :x

Hi all!
In the italian forum something very peculiar happened.
Margo made some comments to Andrea Pecharova (one of the Italian Mutara Fanatics as Pavel likes to say) and Andrea replied after speaking to Monika Soukopova Directly. After a long time it was like Monika and Margo were speaking to eachother again. WOW
:shock: :gunsfiring :snipersmilie :krach :blowingup
I think this is usefull so EVERYBODY can make their minds about what to think about this reall delicate subject for our race.

THIS IS ANDREA/MONIKA ANSWER:
Here are some clarifications from Monika Soukupova, one of the Breeding board of Czeck club
Both Hybrids were judged in the dog show because according to the CMKU rules, the subjects which are written in the Register (the one for new races or test litters) must participate at least at 2 shows obtaining at least very good, so our initial program has changed.
Of course the better evaluation cannot be excluded as CAC but it doesn't mean anything
-What Margo wrote about Armin is really false. The list of the levels obtained is really long: ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2 (kind of IPO 1,2,3), ZPU - 1, ZPU -2, ZPS -1,(special track 1 -2) ZPO -1(special defence), TART 1 - 3 (kind of SCH), SPT -1, 2, 3, (special track 1 -3 Tart) OPT 1 -2 (special defence 1, 2 - Tart ). Armin is prepared for participating to the Republic defence and if he enters in the limits he can have OPT 3, special defence. He really cannot do better.
A dog with problems or without defence qualities wouldn't even be able to do OPT 1.
Margo has never seen him in her life, she didn't mention which military gave her the information and so her speaches are worth nothing.
We saw him while he was working and it was a pleasure to see him.
Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS è means Pohranièní stráže, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libìjovice ; unfortunately Hrach really doesn't know his name because when he took the puppy it was in order to make him grow up with the wolf and didn't care about anything else, he didn't know if the puppy would have survived to the wild education of the she wolf. Puppy survived and he started to work with him and he didn't loose his working attitude not even after being grown up by the wild wolf behaviour. We think that the hybrids have a very good character also because they have Armin's blood, not only because of good socialization. (those who saw the bonitation say they behaved even better than some wolfdogs that already tested bonitation before)
-Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.
Int the last years very little quantity of CSW are A or B in CZ.
If we go to make Xrays in Poland a HDC in CZ was considered perfect A
We have various examples: some time ago I was with Mrs. Nekvasilova in poland with Qeron. I wanted to compare the results because vet said they were ok and Sterc said they were D!
We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.
What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B
Both the females are above the average of wolfdogs in CZ.
It would be stupid not to mate them and observe how things evolve.
But we don't want to observe only F2 but the development and variations from F1 to F4. this wasn't done 50 years ago because HD was not monitored.
We have the hybrids but we don't have the conditions of the Boarder Guards. This is the difference, but at least we have the register at CMKU. It's importatn to know that the genealogic book
is at the ÈKS ( Èeský kynologicky svaz ).
The two books are separate. To monitor the F1-F4 hybrids is and will be difficult, without economical income and without future.
The people that allowed us to participate to this study know and it is difficult to find others.

We are not Boarder Guards, when a soldier received a dog he shoud prove what he could do without comments. It's impossible to abuse of the actual hybrids.
They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers as an insurance for this Ing. Hartl's name should be enough, he created the breed.
-It's not true that I made bonitation alone. Ing. Hartl was with me, he was key person and without him they could not be selected. Other present people were Ing. P. Laufkova as member of Club. other people not from club were present (even Andrea that is writing)
-Why do Hybrids provocate so much hatred, they are not an illness.
- For what artificial insemination is concerned, if you manage to take sperma from wolf, documentating the thing, please let us know...instead, inseminating the shewolf, who will let us? ZOO? Zoo obviously could not accept. Even if they would, we should do it under narcotics. But it's easy that the dog would be stressed and not be pregnant. We took in consideration all variants, but to do something is not so easy as to write them. Simply when Hrach informed us about the litter (both subjects corresponded generally to our request to monitor HD) we took the occasion, there is nothing else under that.

FOR MARGO FROM ANDREA
It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)
I tried to express my opinion always writing the origins of my information, i tried to translate from Czeck to italian what I thought was important, specifying were my information came from, not like you, you said you read on a paper but don't remember the name, you say you remember that Armin is not pureblood, don't make me laugh, specify well the names were you get your informations, only this way you can be believable.

Of course after all this translating work I would like to express my own opinion.
If what is said by the EXPERIMENTATORS is true, that they only want to monitor HD evolution, that they will not use and mix with CSW, well honestly I cannot be against this.
Of course, the dog show was really a bad move.
in italy a dog without pedigree can participate to a show but cannot be CAC or BOB.
Also Ing Hartl's articles are too old, something Official should be written by the club or Hartl himself in order to clarify the situation once and for all.
Not saying anything puts a lot of maybe useless suspect on something THEY say is CLEAN!.
However, I truly hope Margo and Pavel are wrong and that it's really JUST and experiment to be monitored.
I have some doubts, but some hopes.
Your faithfull translator
Massimo

Thank you very much Massimo ! - for this extensive translation.
Interesting indeed.
fenris

Hi Massimo ,

Thank you very much for the hughe translation work!
I am very glad that someone did all this work :D
So we all can understand more what is going on.

This week I did try to translate all kind of texts with translation machines of internet, and the results were very bad :(

So I am very grateful for your work!

greetings
Mijke

Hi Massimo,
as I see, you dont understand yet everything correct. Let me please put here some corrections of facts :
Am 100% agree with you and nobody would protest here against such experiment. But excuse me, just in the basic school we learn some basically principles of every experiment which must every experimentator made before the experiment :
1. Set the experiment target
2. Choice the way, how try go to the target
3. Set exactly conditions of experiment and his rules

I never saw something from this 3 points (excl. very generally proclamation about HD improvement). The "experimentators" settting some rules as well (like take participation on the shows outside the competition, if will be by every hybrid not 100% negative HD, then the experiment finished immediatelly etc.) - dont forget, that it was made first on 15.9.2003 and the hybrids were registered on end of Mai 2003 !!! But this rules dont keep. As I said in last year, I feel that they want to use hybrids in any case and first argumentate with HD improvement, when hybrids will be not HD-free, then setting the rules on other argument (e.G. exterior or character improvement). And in the time (only not whole year) shows, that I was true. Minimally one hybrid is not HD-free and "experiment continued.

Massimo and everybody, who dont understand it yet. Mutara hybrids have a CsW pedigree just now !!! Only not regulary pedigree, but pedigree from "support register" which is using only for mixing some dogs without origin to the pure breed. Its true, that this pedigree is not full valid like normally. But such dogs can participate on normally shows, get the all titules. Only on International dog shows cant get CACIB, because register is a national registration and that is dont accept fully on international level.
If today come somebody with Mutara hybrid to italian show, then MUST be valuate oficially in ring, only dont get titules. But can be, of course, winner of class and in the case, then nobody get a titules as well, then can get BOB in Italy as well. Its a fresh information, which I get yesterday in Czech kennel Club (CMKU).

I accept very much the work of Mr.Hartl in the past. But I must say, that with Mutara case he made for him self a bad. As I wrote, I can accept everything, but not, when somebody write one and doing other. And its 100% true in Mutara case.

I would like hope, that we are wrong too. But all steps and information about "Mutara experiment" shows, that we are right yet.

1. Basicaly information, which you dont understand yet is, that experiment dont go outside our breed, like says "Mutara fanatics". All 3 Mutara hybrids have pedigree of register of CsW. In the light this fact looks whole case little bit on other side, or ... ?

2. Why were beginn the experiment top secret and all informations still be yet ? If is it a really experiment only, then is no sense hidden something. Am sure, when if would be it really and seriously experiment only, then after publish his target, conditions and rules will 99% of club members support it.

3. What I dont understand (maybe am little bit stupid :D ), why dogs, which using only for HD heredity need a youth presentation, bonitation, shows and basically a pedigree ? If is it experiment only, then dont need oficially FCI HD result but enought to do it under a short simply subcontract with a veterinary.

4. If is it experiment only, then I dont understand the sentence in oficially opinion of breeding committee : "... 4. V pøípadì prokázaného úspìchu u F4 by chovatelská komise podala návrh výboru klubu na za¾ádání o povolení regenerace ÈSV tìmito registrovanými køí¾enci...." (4. In the case the documentary success by F4 would breeding committee put on club board sugestion about regeneration of CsW breed with this hybrids ...").

Massimo, please, can you put here your opinion on this facts ?

mijke wrote:

> Is there anybody able and willing to translate the whole original article in english language?
> I should like to have an english version of this article, so I can translate it also for the Dutch forum.
> thanks in advange!
> Mijke

there is a recent post at the official CsW website stating that an english version of the official site should be launched quite soon..

actually, there are two articles on the mixes-topic by Karel Hartl:

15.09.2003: Attitude of the Breeding Committee towards the mixes registration
24.11.2003: HD & mixes - why?

i can translate these two for you, but i think i can't make it before monday or tuesday evening.. is that fine with you?
________________________
charlie + josefina eden severu

Thanks in advange!!

mijke

Sorry, but as a veterinarian that is a breeder too I have to write something about it. I can´t follow this argumentation.
There has allready a lot of longtime research about HD-Genetics been done in the past. We allready know enough about how to decrease HD in a breed. Therefor the Mutaraexperiment is absolutely unneccesary.
The FCI classification for HD-x-rays is clear for every country. If I have such a big variation in classification, for me, as a person who is used a little bit to proper research-systhems, the normal way to go would be first to take a big amount of x-rays and let them be judged by official vets in several countries, especially in countries that are known to be quite strikt, like the ones in the nothern part of Europe. And I don´t mean to take the dogs there, I´me talking about sending the same proper taken x-rays (dog beeing sedated until musclerelaxation, legs properly streched and rotated inwardly).
If Dr. Sterc differs from most other countries, she may be strict but not good and experienced enough to do the job, I change the Veterinarian and that´s it.
If Dr. Sterc doesn´t differ I use the help of a genetic adviser (that isn´t involved with anybody in the club!!!) to set up a breeding program to increase the situation.
Looking at HD results all over the world inclusive countries that are quite strikt the situation of the whole breed isn´t that bad that you have to get into uncontrolled breeding experiments with two parents that are of unknown origin (even Monika says that nobody knows the name of the father of Armin) or a wolf from another continent.
If you really decide you need knew GSH or wolfblood in the population you should take your time to set it up properly, with extremly good selected parents. There are several stud dogs all over the world that are HD-free out of lines that are almost not used in czech breeding so far, it would be much more sensible to use this dogs first and it would give me the time to set up a experiment like Mutara in a proper way instead of head over heals if I really come to the conclusion that I need it.

I am a real CSW lover and for me no ones name is an insurance for such a secretly kept experiment. And Ing. Hartl didn´t create this breed all alone for himself, there have been other people joining him in this process, some of them are Slovakians and the Slovakian club is the one that is the garantee of the breed, nobody there got informed about registration and experiment.
For me an experiment that is set up this way and therefor the involved dogs too are a menace. I live in a country that reacts quite hysteric about wolfs and has dangerous dog lists.
I joined a bonitation with a constillation like this, Mr. Hartel was there, but in my opinion Monika was the key person.
By the way, the way the character test was done and the character of the dogs was bonitated, the next problem we will very likely have to solve is genetically fear aggressiv dogs.
Nobody hates them, we just don´t like the experiment they are misused for.
What nobody talkes about: Wolfhybrids of the first generations cause a lot of severe problems and they don´t really start with it before they are fully and socially mature - with 3-4 years, so problems with Mutaras can still occure.
Both bitches are said to be pregnant, that means about 10 new problems. Who is supposed to keep the dogs that are not used for the experiment, who is supposed to keep the next generations??? The army won´t be there for keeping and selection, do they want to put the puppies down they can´t use?? Have they till now even thought about it??

Male wolfs don´t produce fertile sperma out of breeding season, if you find a Zoo that lets you do this you could get Sperm from a male wolf under anesthisia then. If you use modern narcotics and do the semination at the right point of ovulation you can use a female wolf.
If you want to mate wolf and dog it normally is necessary that they grow up together a breeding project of this importance should have the three years of time this needs. There are European wolfs available on the market like there are Canadian wolfs. Crossing European wolfs with dogs has been managed before many times, it will work again, it just needs some planing and time.

Like Margo I appreciate the work from both countries. I asked Dr. Sona Bognarova, member of the Slovakian club and club judge, Andreas question, her answer was: compared to the situation 10 years ago they have less puppies/year, compared to the situation 5 years ago they don´t have a decrease. Compared to 10 years ago they have less breeders because breeding, if you do it properly costs a lot of money, the country has gone through great economic changes.
I personally don´t understand why that has anything to do with the quality of the breeding work of a country unless you think that puppyproduction is something positiv.

Ina

Right. But you know what's funny? Mr. Hartl wrote on the official paper during the registration of the litter of the Mutara mixes by the Czech Kennel Club: "Mother: Lupina. Coat colour: wolfgrey"....hmmmm...maybe I drank too much during our holidays in Slovakia and now I see white mices.... :wolfie sorry WHITE wolf... ;)
It is really puzzling that even the official kennel club has been cheated in this case.... Or maybe someone of you really see BROWNGREY wolf on this photo:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Lupina.jpg

It is not forbidden - if there will be a REAL need we can still use such crossing to add fresh blood. But we don't need it now - there is really no need to do it. The whole population of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs have about 4500 dogs (some scholar says a "healty" population must have a last 2500 individuals). So what we need is selection, propagation of the breed and breeders which breed typical Wolfdog (acording the exterier and character). It is all....!

There is always a possibility to register dogs without the pedigree if they are typical according the character and look. It is often used to build "natural breeds". For example we use the same by Polish Tatra Shepherd Dog - there are many such dogs living in mountains. Most of them are real working Polish Tatra Shepherd Dogs but they don't have pedigrees (highlanders don't care for something like this). So we make a bonitation of such dogs and if they pass it we register them in the registry.

But Wolfdogs are something different - they didn't developed naturally. They were an experiment which later was evolved to a breed. Every dog was registered - all had pedigrees. So there was no need to register any Wolfdogs without pedigree. Also the breeding comittee was against it - none of the owners of any mixes similar to CzW was able to register his dog by the Czech Kennel Club.

First the current breeding comittee broke this rule and used this way to register Mutaras.... Of course they had to lie about the origin and other features of this dogs and they also broke some FCI rules but they were successful and the whole A-litter get pedigrees....

Italy is not an exception...there are more countriesgoing the same way. Now there is nothing what can be used against our breed - we are as pure as the driven snow... :|
But if the Czech breeders will use this mixes it will change...and after it all that's laft for us to do is to wait that CzW will be banned if the most EU coutries....Nice future! :nonono2

Hmmmm....there are some false concepts.
In Europe we have only one wolf: Canis Lupus Lupus. It has been called as "European Wolf" or "Common Wolf". Canis Lupus Lupus looks the same in whole EU but differs a little bit depending of the region he is living. For example European Wolfves living in cold parts of Europe are bigger. European Wolves living in South of Europe are much smaller and have shorter coat. For Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs the founders used Carpathian Wolves - it means European Wolves living in mountains of Slovakia.

There are also European Wolves living in Siberia - they are much bigger that wolves we know but look exactly the same. But there are also totally different wolves - in Siberia you can meet Siberia Wolf (Canis Lupus Albus), in region of Canada and America also Arctik Wolf (Canis Lupus Arctos), Canadian Wolf (Canis Lupus Occidentalis) and other subspecies. Lupina - the mother of Mutara Mixes belongs to one of the North American subspecies - she is a white Canadian Wolf.

I'm not so sure about it. Lupina was mated with Armin when she was already 10 years old.... There were 6 puppies born - 3 of them died. Nice example of responsible breeding, isn't it?

It's a pitty but it is not true. The breeder of Mutaras and owner of Lupina and Armin is not a big fan of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. He even attacked our breed in an article in a newspaper "Pes" (one of the most know Czech dog magazine). He had no interests to help us....it was not his goal....and it is also not his goal now...

But ...there is no logical reason. There is no logic at all... :roll: Every scientists reading this theses will get sick because it is breaking the main rules of scientific research. They say it is an experiment which have to check if the genes of a Wolf (it means witout HD) are stronger than genes of a GSD (it means with HD). But:

- even if it will be checked by testing the Mutaras the only result of this experiment will be: genes of CANADIAN wolf are stronger then genes of a GSD (Mix). So for our breed they have to REPEAT the same experiment because Canadian Wolf is different than European Wolf so something that is true fo them does not have to be true for European Wolves.

- I read this question on the Czech Forum and it is true: how they want to check whether the "healty" genes of a Canadian Wolf are dominant if they mate a wolf with HEALTY dogs (and wolfdogs)? If they really want to make an research they have to mate HEALTY wolf with a dog with strong HD. After it they can see if the next generations are healty (it means genes of a wolf are really helpful) or not (it means wolfsblood don't help with fighting with HD).

But now we are talking only about an experiment so the FCI rules are not important.

That's right. I will write it in different way: the biggest problem for CzW by a protection work is they don't want to bite... 8) Really. Compared with Belgian Shepherd Dogs, Germans Shepherd Dogs, Rottweilers or Dobermanns our dogs are really peacefull creatures... :mrgreen:
Sure our breed was made for tracking and not for protection work. But as "real" working breed are recognized only dogs which bite hard and for fun (that's the point where we are attacked by other trainers and other "working breed" owners). So if we want to make our breed more "working" we have to improve this characteristic. And as Pavel wrote Armin have lot of exams but he is really not that good in protection work. So for improving this feature of our breed he is useless...

That's right. The mistake Andrea made was she didn't explained she is writing the words of Monika. You know we are really sensitive to the words of Czech Breeding Comittee - if someone is just repeating their words it is really easy for us to find it out because we know all arguments of Mutara Wolfdog founders... :twisted:

I really understand it. The same problem is in Czech Republic. The breeding comitee told to some club members: we made a GSD-Wolf crossing and now we will use it to mate with CzW because of HD problems. So the answer of the people is: "Why not, that's the way Hartl made our breed before". NOBODY have ever said to this people Lupina is a WHITE CANADIAN wolf and Armin is NOT A GSD. Nobody said there is no real problem with HD by CzW.

If someone is more inquiring - it means if someone is against it the breeding comitte members say to such people: why you are against it? It is just an experiment. We just want to see the heritage of HD a.s.o. This mixes have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
So the answer of the people is: "Why not, it is just an experiment which will not hurt our breed". NOBODY have ever said to this people the mixes are already registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and this year will be covered (if they are not already mated) with CzW males.

So the answer to Italian people is: it is NOT an experiment and it is NOT made to improve the breed.... It IS just for fun of some people...

We already spoke about it with Italian breeders (they are also people which are angry about puppy mills) and we decided if someone is not interested in cooperation and is not sending us the info about their litters and dogs we do not advertise their litters.
Italy has the biggest amount of CzW breeders and it is not surprising there are also people which make it for money. But we can't attack all Italian breeders because there are also some which really care for our breed. And exactly this discusion with presence of the Italian owners/breeders is the best example for it.

Yes. Right. They created a new breed....hmmmm... Mutara Wolfdog. Sounds nice, or?
If they don't want to create new breed we still can pack up all Mutaras (the whole Czech breeding comittee too) and send them to the Dutch Saarloos Club. This mixes are useless for us and have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolves but maybe it can help Saarloos people.? Do you want them? We will give you extra charge if you will free us from them... ;)

:D We already spoke with Monika about this mixes almost in all know languages. So Italian is just another one... ;)

It is not true.
First - according to the CMKU rules the dogs have to be judged BEFORE writting into the Register. So they were registered without fulfiling the conditions... Illegal.
Second - you have to participate in the shows ONLY if you want to register the mixes as CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. So in this case it means: Mutaras are not an experiment but (false) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and will be used for breeding for sure. And the words of Monika are only proof for it.
Third - you don't need to take part in the CLASSES with these mixes. For example: if you applied a dog for a show but you came too late to be judges you can still be judged outside the classes. You will not get any titles but you will still have official note and description. So it was not needed to apply Mutaras INTO the classes. Additional: it was also a real paranoia because the mix was also taking part in the Best Couple competition.... For what reason?

First - ZVV 2 can be compared more with IPO2 than with IPO3.
Second - it doesn't matter...
I know nice Malinois with HD-A, Working Interchampion title, with IPO3 and very nice position in the World Championships. But so what? Should I use it?

Dear Monika - I never saw Armin. I never said that. :D But I have a judgement of his protection work abilities by someone who knows him. And I'm sorry to say it but for me his opinion is more worth that opinion of a just dog owner... Sure Armin is biting but not as good as some other dogs so if you want to improved this features by our breed you have to choose an other dog...
But...it doesn't matter...you don't care for character. You just want to improve the HD results. Don't you? 8)

HEH? :roll: Sorry, but I saw one of the mixes on the training ground and it working abilities can be compared not with GSD or CzW but with autistic Husky. OK, I didn't see a lot because the mix tried to attack our bitch. Nothing big happened but it was not the only case according to the words of the mix owner. And don't forget the mix was very young - I'm really curious about them when they will be adult...

?!? And who saw the bonitation? It was made specially during the camp in Jetrichovice to avoid too many witnesses. I was in Hostivice when Audrey Lupo made the youth presentation and it was so hidden that I even didn't register it. After the happening some people told me that "German Shepherd Dog mix" (as they told me) also made the youth presentation...

Whose decision is it? It seems to be the reason why Czech Republic have the worsest HD results of all countries. Do you think it helps Czech breeders? If yes than why they want to change it and only the breeding committe is against it?
If you think that only your Czech vet makes right HD-results why you let your puppy owners to go to make second HD in Poland? Why do you make the HD of your own dogs in Italy? Many Czech CzW owners have no money/time to handle like it so they are really injured because their dogs are HD-C and not HD-A from Poland, Slovakia or Italy.....?

What results does Ohnivak have? HD-A? You forgot to mention that all dogs whith visible HD had the same result in Poland (it means they are also not HD-free in Poland). For example L'Rocco - (3/4) in CZ and (3/3) in Poland. And don't forget about dogs X-rayed in CZ. They have also different results depending from the vet which makes the judgement.

There are some guidelines - I think Pavel or Ina wrote about them. There are different levels for HD and general rules to recognise them.

Hmmm...as far as I know ALL checked wolves were HD-A. So it means Armin brough problems with HD. But it is nothing new - it was well know: if you want to have better HD-results never use GSD (Mix). :mrgreen: But in this "experiment" everything was made false... :roll:

Main question: why did you register them if you don't want to use them for the breed? If they are separated? For a single experiment you can print the pedigrees at home - you don't need to handle them like CzWs...

It is really surprising... :| :evil: I can't imagine any responsible breeder will take part in this experiment as it is. It is a real morass - no rules and at last nobody want to be responsible because if you will use the mixes for breeding with CzW also all these mixes owners/breeders will bear responsibility for it.

Sure - the mixes were not a menace and nobody had something against them. But after you registered them in the Help Book of the Breed Book by Czech Kennel Club they started to be a danger to our breed and the whole story is the best proof for it...

Sure. I learned a lot from them... :mrgreen: In Slovakia you can still speak with people which were by the setting up of the first CzW Club or some which remember even ealier times... I always appreciate people which work for the breed....not only people from Slovakia.

You want to have a honest answer? Here it is: it makes no sense to breed dogs if there are no buyers interested in the puppies. It was hard to sell puppies in SK so many breeders stopped with breeding CzW.
In opposite to it Czech Republic had huge increase of bred puppies in the last years. Why? Because there were many people from Holland, Germany interested in the puppies and what is the most important: Italian salesmen which bought WHOLE litters. So the Czech breeders produced as much as possible because the Italian dealers bought everything - it was no matter if the puppies were nice or not, if they were young or old. If a breeder had problems to sell puppies in CZ he had always the possibility to sell all remaining puppies to IT. And they got nice money for it. Market rules....
Now it changer already: there are enough breeders in Italy, Holland or Germany so only few people import dogs from CZ. Even the Italian salesmen started to breed CzW in Italy instead of importing dogs from CZ. So I think in the next years the number of puppies born in CZ will also decreased. Only good breeders with good dogs will stay on the market - people breeding for money will stop with breeding. Already now it is hard to sell puppies and some breeders gave up and don't breed anymore.
In Slovakia it goes in other direction: there are more interested people than puppies (not only from other countries interested in "Slovakian Wolves" but also directly people from Slovakia) so I think the number of litter will increase soon. Or if we will take in consideration number of litter where Slovakian dogs were used it already increased... ;)
So even in Czech Republic there is huge interest in Slovakian type of dogs. And the announced litters listing are the best example for it.

Hmmm...no problem. And please don't laught because this point is the best example how the breeding comittee is lying the people in CZ (and now also the members of this forum). So back to Armin:

1) Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee):
Armin is GSD.
Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also German Shepherd Dog from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice. Hard to believe because I can say the father on my GSD-mix Dora is Mickey Mouse and because she has no pedigree you can not say it is not true. The same is Armin. These are just words without meaning....

2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee):
Armin is a CzW.
Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree" (if someone is interested I can send you a scan). It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry")

3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin):
Armin is an Mix.
In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes:

Czech:
"Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv".

English:
"I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place".
So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin.
This article was published on the forum on the Czech Club pages by Hana Kaufmanova (26.9. 2003, Subject: "Jeste neco k Arminovi" ["Few words more about Armin"]). It was removed together with other posts few days later as being not "politocal correct".



So we have 3 different versions .... but only one is true. Who is cheating? If you are interested just read this topic:

WHO IS ARMIN?

and take part in the funny game: "Please help the Czech breeding Comittee".... :mrgreen:

And for all Mutara fans :wink: - here are some photos of the "beautiful, wolfish mixes that are better than other CzWs":
Ares Lupo Mutara
Audrey Lupo Mutara
Ave Lupo Mutara

EGO
 

Dear,


How big can ego's be, its about the dogs, not about you all.

Kind regards,

Jeffrey

Only for fun - here is quote from FCI Show regulation :
"... EXCELLENT may only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, and is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored, it must however have the typical features of its sex...."

"... The only dogs which can be considered for the CACIB are those which have been awarded "EXCELLENT 1st". A CACIB can only be awarded if the dog in question has been assessed as being of superior quality. The CACIB is not automatically linked to the "EXCELLENT 1st” ..."

Is it fun or tragedy ... ?

As I wrote before I made official prostest because one of the mixes was judged on the special dog show in Svetla in Czech Republic. There were two possible answers for my letter:
1 - Mutara is only a experiment (as the (old) breeding comitte said) and Mutaras have nothing to do with CzW. And judging the mixes on a dog show for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs was a fault.
2 - Mutaras are registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and can be judged on the shows and can even receive CAC title.
Today I received an offical letter from the (old) club board. The second is true: because the mixes were registered by CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) they are the same as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. They were judged on this shows because they need judgement so also their offsprings will receive pedigrees.

What it means: Massino translated us answer which Monika Soukupova wrote to Italian people where is said: Mutaras are only experiment and not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Now I have written official answer that is was just a lie....

I think it is an end for our discussion here because everything is clear - it is NOT an experiment and they want to use Mutaras for mating with CzW. It is the reason for all manipulations which the (old) breeding comittee made in the last two years. The people in Czech Republic had enough of it and it was one of the reasons why all Mutara people were removed from the board of the Czech branch of the club. In February there will be Club conference in Brno and I think mixes will be one of the main topics there...

The author of this question asked Hartl about it. The answer was: they used HD-free wolf and HD-free mix because offspring of such parents fits better for breeding with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Simply said: it is another proof (this time already from Hartl) that it is not an experiment because they do not care to make any scientific work. They just want to have mixes which they will use to breed with CzWs... :|

It would be wise to consider that breeding of wild wolves is based on natural selection and genetic defects would likely not arise in the wolf population due to this fact. Only the strong and healthy survive in the harsh environment. Therefore only the strong and healthy subsequently mate. Wolves are not inherently immune to the genetic defects that afflict the domestic dog.

In breeding domestic dogs, out-crossing can have many benefits, but only if you know the genetic factors you are adding to the gene pool. So here is the problem, it has been stated that Armin is a GSD, it is obvious to anyone familiar with the breed that he is not. It has been stated that Armin is a Czech Wolfdog, it is obvious to most that he is not, and even if he were, he would be one of the poorest examples of the breed now established.

However, it would not be surprising to find that he is an F1, F2, or F3 wolfcross, or even a mix with malamute. The only reason one could find for using this dog for breeding in the Czech bloodlines is to out-cross to broaden the existing gene pool to either help eliminate or prevent future genetic defects. This would only be a benefit if there were known genetic factors, but instead there are too many unknowns. This can only lead one to believe it was done for purely personal reasons.

These offspring are only going to move the breed backwards and not forward. Are there no quality Czech Wolfdogs that could have been used to out-cross to a wolf? Wouldn’t that have made more sense to the community? If what they really needed to do was add new wolf blood to the breed, which in itself is still highly debatable.

When developing a breed it is important to have the largest genetic pool possible, but unfortunately human intervention prevents natural selection, and eventually every domesticated breed has its own problems to deal with. The only recourse one has is to provide strict breeding guidelines, but even then, judgments and opinions even from veterinary staff are subjective.

Breeders often breed dogs they shouldn’t and there are innumerable reasons why they do. Welcome to the world of domestic dogs. Standards are written to help breeders breed the ideal of their breed. Not many dogs will ever measure up 100% to the standards, but that is what you need to strive for. Breeding dogs with faults may result in some offspring not visually possessing them, but those faults are still there in their genes just waiting to come out.

Responsible breeders do not breed dogs with known genetic defects or faults, but then I have found that there are a lot of irresponsible people in the dog world. I had a female Great Pyrenees that was the most beautiful bitch anyone had ever seen. She was perfect in conformation. I did not show her. I took her with me to the shows and was asked many times by nervous exhibiters if I was showing her and a sigh of relief when I said no. She had a defect, her temperament was not good (would bite children) and she had a littermate that also had a temperament problem, so I knew it was genetic, and I knew I would not show or breed her.

When you wrap all your hopes into an animal, not to mention a lot of money, it is disappointing to say the least, but when you love your breed, you have to choose to do what is right for the breed, not what is right for yourself. I had to stop showing and breeding Great Pyrenees because there were not very many breeders like myself, and over time they were showing and breeding dogs that were not even close to the standard, could have even been a different breed altogether, and judges seemed to be unfamiliar with the breed standard. It was very disheartening to see the breed ruined.

If you can move breeders into DNA testing it can only help the Czech Wolfdog and prevent fraudulent registrations in the future. It may also be a selling point for a prospective buyer, so defraying the cost to the buyer, which would be minimal, would not be questionable. This is done with certain horse breeds all the time.

I say all this from the point of view of a prospective owner. I hope to one day be graced by a Czech Wolfdog. I have also owned a wolfdog, or what you might refer to as a hybrid, 87% wolf, timber and arctic with Malamute and GSD thrown into the mix, she probably could have passed for a Czech Wolfdog, but that would not have made her one. She was beautiful, but that is not the point is it?

I'd like to thank Margo and everyone who has been involved with uncovering the truth and getting it out in the open.

Respectfully,

Standsalone

Hallo Standalone,

Maybe you have read several answers from me in which I mentioned the DNA test.
You mentioned the DNA test allso. All of our CW's with we breeding with are tested for DNA but not every breeder is interesting in it. But in the case of Mutara it seems it will be necessary to do it for in the future.
I hope, that other breeders will follow us and let testing their dogs. Then you will be sure that you will have a real CW.

Letty