How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?
 

I havent been writing much on this site because very disappointed and lost after so many cases of fake looking CSW dogs and fake pedigrees circulating in the last years.
I will NOT make any names of breeders or examples of dogs, many already enjoy playing guessing games already and I am not in the mood for games now.

This is a serious issue and I believe the breed as we know it is dieing...
It is obvious when we look at pictures that some dogs CANNOT be sons of their claimed parents.
Red saarlos looking dogs, american wolf looking dogs, extremely wolf looking dogs, replaced puppies...
Of course, these things are noticed by a trained eye, but cannot be proved.
Sometimes DNA results stand out and shout...like when DM tests are absurd.
Stupidity in these cases claim that the test is wrong or there is some kind of miracle or exception...but who do we think we are kidding with??

The question is, seriously, WHAT CAN BE DONE??
With Mutaras, the clubs have moved in a way to avoid dogs with unknown pedigrees before a certain date, but when the pedigrees are fake, this is useless.

For all of you who fear, like me, that this could cause serious issues, are you ready to subscribe to a worldwide action?
I was thinking of asking all clubs to request FCI to make some investigations, to oblige some breeders to make DNA tests (paternity) by taking blood samples directly.
If these breeders do not agree...they should be prevented from breeding again.
I am speaking IN PARTICULAR about some french breeders who clearly show that they think this is all a game and that honesty and truth is just an option.
Maybe the clubs can select some judges to chose, judging from pics or from shows, some dogs who they believe can be from doubtful origins and request the breeders to perform the tests.
It is just an idea...but believe me, this situation seems to becoming worst and worst every month....will it ever stop if we do nothing about it?

My opinion about experimenting new blood in the breed is NOT the point here, I am mostly concerned about FAKE PEDIGREES.

why should honest breeders work for years and years to obtain small but significant results when others just use a mix or a real wolf, pretend the father is somebody else, mix these again and obtain results which are amazing, I admit, but fake?
Any opinion is welcome.
massimo

I am in the US now and because the American club isn't a regular FCI participant, I don't know how much influence people in the US would have by petitioning the FCI. But I think that owners and enthusiasts in the US should really try to look into asking the AKC-FSS to stop approaching this breed with an open stud book because of the possibility and likelihood of outcrosses and fake pedigrees. The stud book has been technically closed since the last outcross decades ago, so there really isn't a reason why the AKC should be the only club left that explicitly accepts a dog which simply looks roughly like a CsV. For the US, this is probably the most important step next to DNA testing of all parents.


To me these 'results' are atypical, the shepherd mixes and most of all the American wolf mixes. They look 'wolfy' but they don't look like CsV type. There is a huge difference. 'Good results' in a breed must not only be physical/exterior type but also temperament and development, and the ability to recreate these traits in future generations. Dogs from false pedigrees can claim none of that, and so-called 'breeders' of these dogs are probably the same that think that winning in a dog show makes a dog breeding material. They contribute nothing to the breed en large and I doubt care much about the breed known as Czechoslovakian Vlcak and its history.

For whatever reason, why can't people making false pedigrees go and make their own breed, like the American club and the 'American Akita'?

but what can we do?

Yes, absolutely we must act and not just talk, I think DNA swop ALL dogs at ALL Bonitations, will be one way...

And (we) must make a DNA map of the CsV breed so that we can se by taking one DNA test on only one dog later on and see directly if it is pure or not... ( a DNA Pure breed test )


Sweden has obligatory DNA test on Saarloos and Vlcak´s before we get any FCI pedigree´s and as I understand it is the same in Belgium, the reason is that on this two breeds there is just to easy to mix whit wolf or GSD and get away whit it...


I have already bean in contact whit the Swedish kennel club and they are interested to get info about a future Pure breed DNA test for the Vlcak breed and as soon as there is one, it will probably be a obligatory test before register a CsV in Sweden + suspected wolf mixes can be tested by the Swedish police and prove the Vlcak pedigree is a fake...


I do what I can from here, but I think nothing will happen world wide before the SL and CZ club demands DNA swop to get a Bonitation code...

What do you think can be done about the situation in Italy ??? Can DNA swop be something that can be standard on a Italian (Bonitation) ???

Best regards / Mikael

Hoping you will find a way...

That is the problem. In SK and CZ, the breeding is already much more regulated than in other countries. With the income/expense ratio being what it is and with lots of people interested in wolfdogs being too lazy/uninformed to research further than their own neighborood, our breeders are already quite pressed in comparison to others... Unless this kind of thing can be made obligatory everywhere, this will only lead to further spreading of dogs from untrustworthy sources.

Sasha, i think this is a serious matter.
The CSW world starts to populate with fake dogs.
I mean, some have on their pedigree a dog without ancestry, this is easy to identifiy.
Others have a blood which is totally different from their declared pedigree...
what is happening?
i think there should be a serious action taken, to the FCI level, because the breed as we "knew" it is at risk.

DNA tampon on bonitation is useless for me because the countries where the problems are do not have compulsory bonitation.

As I said before, it is time for the clubs to meet and discuss and agree on a decision, its a serious thing!
CZ/SK clubs should take a lead on this.
I would chose 3 or 4 expert judges who should specially investigate the issue and review shows and pics.
When they identify a "suspect" dog, they can request to make dna test to dog and parents.
If the owners or breeders refuse to do so, they can be officially put in a suspect list or something like that.
It is my opinion that these fake pedigrees can slowly destroy the breed as we know it and cancel the traceablity of the lineage...destroying years of work!
this is just my opinion...nothing more

It's not just your opinion! :klatsch

I will add what was already writte here - the test must be done by an official commissions. Because they are easy to cheat as it was done already in the Dutch case...

Yep, I think so to... As it is now nothing will really hapen at the other clubs, becose Sk and Cz clubs has not say nothing ( = No problem ) and the dogs have pure FCI pedigree´s, so we can not really do something, And some breedes do not even know if there dog is 100% pure...


I thinkt that...

Nr 1, We need to prove it ! So we need a DNA test that works !

Nr 2, The Sk club need to talk to the FCI about the situation, so that they can take away this dogs pure FCI pedigree´s... Or not let any offsprings from them get any new pedigree´s ( might work better and easier that way ? )

Not as easy as it sounds / Mikael

I'm very sceptiacl about institutional steps, too much red tape involved and too many personal interdependencies present. IMHO there are three driving forces that can change the world: fame, sex and money.

Continuous warnings about not buying CSV with possibly faked pedigrees, not only on wd, but also on other dog sites, articles in kynological press with names of the 'suspected dogs', petitions to FCI judges, etc. in my opinion would be much more efficient.

Such and similar steps might result in a decrease in the number of puppies sold in some kennels (money?;)), in fewer if any, requests for some stud matchings (sex and money? ;)), fewer titles at shows (fame and money?;)).

Eventually, this would create such financial pressure that breeders who would want to keep on the market will have to prove their reliablity by storing DNA profiles of their dogs in Laboklin, OFFA or some other respected lab, so that any potential owner/breeder could use them for genetic comparisons.

Just looking at the recent furious reaction of Furyos :twisted: I suppose such business pressure might be quite effective.:p

Just to be exact... Does French kennel club know about these fake pedigrees? Did anyone inform them? :roll:

Yuki, the stud book is not close! (or maybe this year?) But last year it was still open.

Massimo: Mutara was only in first generation named, in second generation there were named another names in the lineage and fake pedigree started.

AS Margo wrote a comission must take dna samples personally(!) from the dog and the parents. Otherwise cheating would go on.

But you are right Massimo, now there are a lot of csw on the road where you can see - and you do not need to be expert - that there are other wolfdogs in the lineage and not only csw.

Special judge who will see? I know from special judges who say, if a csw looking wolfdog fits in the standard, I can nothing do against it. And as we all know in 2009 world dog show even special judges were not able to see the difference! That is maybe the problem of beauty shows, because there it is only the beauty what counts and people can not see the different character.

And if I think in germany you can go with a wolfdog without pedigree and they will get registry papers if he/she fits to the standard - and it is not a special judge who will decide. So I could easily bring a F 1 or F 2 csw into the breed. But of course his/her papers would not be fake but real. But I know that is not the point what you mean, Massimo, the fake pedigrees.

Mikael, the slovakian club is so small in fci world that he can not do nothing. FCI is not interested in these matters. I wrote already in 2004/2005 and I never got an answer! Ok, I was in private and not "well" known - because being a beginner a bit blind with blue eyes, lol.

So I cross the fingers for you. I started with my crazy Myla and I learned so much from her, so that I think the csw have the right to stay a pure breed. Everybody has the possibilities to create his own breed.

Good luck.
Christian

The FCI judge MUST judge ALL dogs in the ring after the standard, EVEN if the dog might not be pure...

No, we first need to MAP the breed and make a pure breed test, after that we can test just ONE dog against the MAP = CsV pure gene pool and say if that dog is pure or not, if more than 4 wolves = not pure, if other DNA than from the original GSD = not pure...

And it need to be obligatory for breeding / taken whit DNA swab and sent to lab by the Bonitation committee in the countrys where there is Bonitations... In others it can be sent to the same lab from a veterinarian... ( And yes, some still going to find a way to fake it, but than it will be very very clear that it is illigal )

On suspected fake pedigree´s one can do a Swap at any dog show and send it to the lab, if the owner do not let a club representant Swap the dog, the dog end up on a (suspected) list = Did not let us do a random Swop list...

I do not know about that, as they are even exporting them :roll:
And some owners and even breeders are not sure they have a 100% pure dog or not... AND they are asking for a test, but there is not one yet...

But yes, all of this is not as easy as it sounds ;)

But if Check, Slovak and Italy do it, very soon many more will folow, Sweden and Belgium already has obligatory DNA test for breeding, but not yet a Pure breed test to test it againt, we only test against the parents, so whit a future pure breed test it will cost much less :p

Best regards / Mikael

Exactly :) How do you get the questioned dogs DNA tested against the will of their owners? :?

The question is if the results can be called "amazing". First you forget all the untypical "German Shepherd Alike" dogs which are brother, sisters, half-brothers and half-sisters of the "amazing" dogs... Everybody see the nice dogs and nobody want to see the mongrels...

Second - is "amazing" a dog which is looking like American Wolfdog? Dog who not even RESEMBLE a European Wolf? Sorry but i personally see there only one dog which looks similar to EU-wolf. The rest is totally atypical.

CsW breeders are fans of European Wolves. If they would like to breed American Wolfdog-style dogs they would breed Saarloos, working Huskies, Lajkas or even American Wolfdogs. None of them you choose CsW...

So the "wolfish" dogs comming from France are nice. Some are wolfish. But wolfish like AWD. Compared to EU-Wolves they are more "husky'ish" ;)

Honestly? Till the French kennel club will not finish the MESS in their country with the replaced dogs and fake pedigrees we can do only one:

NOT TO USE ANY DOGS COMMING FROM THE "de Louba Tar" KENNEL (because of known Saarloos mixed), " de l'Ange Gardien de Faujus" (known White Shepherd mixes) and "de la Louve blanche" (because of the visible AWD mixes).

NOT TO USE ANY DOGS WHICH HAVE MENTIONED DOGS IN THEIR PEDIGREES.

DO NOT COOPERATE WITH ANY KENNELS WHICH USE DOGS FROM MENTIONED KENNELS BECAUSE THERE IS NO WARRANTY THAT YOUR DOGS (STUD DOGS) WILL BE REPLACED OR ABUSED AS THE GUISE FOR MIXES.

DO NOT BUY ANY DOG FROM ANY FRENCH KENNEL IF YOU ARE NOT 1000% SURE THE DOG IS PUREBREED. (the words of the breeder are not a warranty because some of them have no idea that they own a mongrel and some do not want to believe in this)

And to hope that honest French breeders and the French club will finally clean the air...

Yes, this is the first and more important step!

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither :lol:

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again :twisted: :p

FCI only wants are money not are questions :cry:

But I think they might have to listen to the patronage club = SK club, right :? ???

Best regards / Mikael

Yes, and looking at the video from the WDS there is more than one reason way one is not to buy a dog from France, I was not even sure I was looking at the Vlcaks, But it was :cry: Only that 50% of them had Saarloos mentality :shock: :? :(

And the judge did not even seam to care about it :huh
Like it was just normal standard dogs :confused2

Sad regards / Mikael

And PS, I know there are good dogs in France to / good breeders, but they are just very very few at the monent, DS.

Mikael, dont be a idealist :) . FCI is a big bussines and some parts of system like a mafia. :(
Sending any emails or letters are not sense. Our breed must defence only we self.

this is not true. i had to deal with fci 2 times... it helps, really. letters, petitions etc. we must not say "it's sensless", we must not sit idly by, we must act :) i wonder how many words were said, why are you all still here doing the same - words? the only questions are: who will make, what exactly and when/how. enough. who has tried to write a letter, to create a petition, finally to make promised so long ago dna tests? auu? we have not many csv at us, but even here people are interested in pure breeding, we offered financial help if somebody decides to make test, we also want to test some dogs from here coming from the "doubtful" lines. some people from here offered to test these dogs for red pigment (i don't know is there any sense, but i'm happy that our people are ready to do anything, not only to discuss this problem virtually)

I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless.
NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed.
I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess..
disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it...
disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers...

Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit.
BULLSHIT!!
Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines...
These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it.
AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake.

When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious...

Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing...

Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan

Christian, i am NOBODY.
Clubs should take action, strong action.
Owners of the standard should do it.
I am just shouting my worries...but my life continues easily.
I am concerned for the breed..but my dogs are the only really important thing.
Clubs are natural connection with FCI, not me.

About Edit, I have visited her kennel many times, and genetically they all seem following her own breeding logic, to my eyes, so I would put my word that her dogs DNA and her pedigrees correspond exactly.
What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility.
m

Christian, I would be very interested to know in which kennel you think the CSV was "refreshed" by wolf blood.

The post regarding mixing/cheating in Slovakia was mine. I cannot of course tell about wolves, as there are plenty of those in Slovakia :lol:, I have my reserves but would not consider it impossible. And I don't say people in Slovakia would not cheat, although I would like to believe that. But my post which you mentioned was specifically about SWD inmixing, and I gave several reasons why I consider it very unlikely to happen in Slovakia, at least untill now http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=116.

Massimo, you are right that the clubs should do something, so I hope we will be able to think about something and, most importantly, to get a good cooperation between the clubs.

But I must say, that although I find it hard to believe Edit would cheat intentionally, the red puppies were born after the parents from her kennel, and the paternity was proved by DNA tests, so that means something is wrong, and her saying nothing and not cooperating doesn't help. On the other hand, I don't like making judgement based on limited knowledge, so I am not judging myself until I know more.

Making the overall DNA testing would be the most revealing thing, but as Sonya posted elsewhere, the question remains who will pay for it? And if we find the money somehow, in what way will we decide, what/who to test first? The money is never unlimited, unlike the ways you can spend it.

Saschia
who sent dna samples to prove paternity?

Als I remember there was an issue with DMA results which were not logical, dna paternity proven as well...
why doesnt the SAME laboratory handle DNA paternity and DMA? this would be the only way of proving the results, or not?
I am really lost...
I dont trust anybody anymore.

What is the typical cost in different countries associated with DNA parentage tests?

the paternity testing I believe was done by licenced laboratory, and concerned the red puppies and their parents. The DM testing with inconsistent results was in a different dogs and as far as I know the results of simultaneous DM and paternity testing were not published yet.

The mistakes in DM testing might easily come from DNA contamination or from mixing of samples, as it is mostly done not in licenced lab, and incoming samples are not taken by a strict protocol. That's why the results are only partly official, there is no certificate. So mistakes can happen and sometimes do. DM test are also done by licenced lab (in that case the results of parents and offspring should be consistent).

Highly off-topic paragraph: The only official results of DNA tests you can get with samples being taken and labeled by a licenced veterinarian (who puts a stamp and signature on it, so should carry consequences if it is shown later that the samples were mixed up before coming to the lab), so that there is no question of their being taken from declared animal (that means the vet should check the chip or tattoo number against the passport or the pedigree). Then the sample goes with the copy of pedigree (proving the identity of the dog in question, and having the same chip or tattoo number!) to the certified lab which has to at all times keep track of the sample with proper labeling of all extracts etc, so that the results can be unquestionably traced back to the original sample and from it to the animal in question.

You can get results on any DNA samples which you send to a testing lab, but it only proves that the results were obtained from that sample. If you have no way to prove that the sample was for sure taken from that animal, than you don't have official results of that animal!

I disagree with this and hope that's not the same mind set all breeders have.

Please explain??
You mean somebody should check what all the puppy owners do with their dogs? if they change the puppy , if they fake data, if they mix with other breeds?

...

you are maybe far too utopistic...
One shoud look at the real responsible instead of always picking on the easy target.

Should I be sorry if I prefer breeders who attempt to place dogs and puppies responsibly? Nobody can be perfect and everyone makes mistakes but it's still their responsibility nonetheless. To me and other breeders I've known, a dog or puppy is 100% their responsibility for having caused them to be created in the first place. A puppy is not a one-way sales by which one can wash their hands clean of any responsibility once money has changed hands.

If a breeder knows their dogs are being used to create mixes (or other mistreatment), perhaps they should think again before sending any more dogs to the same person/kennel, or cohorts of the same person/kennel. And if it happens repeatedly, to start reviewing policies by which they place puppies.

I agree with both of you guys. While a breeder cannot 100% influence what happens to the pups from his/her kennel, the breeder should learn from previous mistakes in placement.

But, it is customers who pick the breeders as well. Unfortunately, most people do not research their breed of interest, do not look for quality (in different aspects), but instead take what is well-promoted or easily available. It is a great pity, that there are so many differences in breeding regulations between countries - and so the honest small-time breeders are in a disadvantage, just as in other commercial enterprises.

This may be off topic...
 

Greetings All!

My name is Rachel and I am new to wolfdog.org but I have been visiting the site for about a month now. My boyfriend and I are interested in getting a female puppy from a spring 2012 litter. I feel that after reading many threads it seems like many breeders are skeptical of new owners and furthermore - importing dogs to different countries. I will be posting an owner "resume" shortly on a thread, to which therein lies my question: Which thread would be ideal to post such a topic? I apologize for posting off topic on this thread but I did not want to start posting without getting insight as to which area would be appropriate (also this thread seemed most active).

Hope to hear from you all soon!
Rachel

Hello and welcome;

I have seen multiple introductory posts at the Off-Topic section in the past.

Perhaps that's the correct place.

Welcome,

It's better to start this as another topic (or add to an old one). Your best bet is not to advertise that you are looking for a puppy on the forum...the breeders that will find you here are not always the ones you want to import from (but are rather trying to get rid of extra puppies, sometimes with temperament or other issues). It's better to research, find a breeding you like (many will be posted in the coming months as fall/winter approaches), and contact the breeder with your resume - or even better, if you plan to breed, get in touch with our small American group to see what our American breeding "plan" could use - or soak up a little of our collective experience. Don't be afraid of language barriers! :) I have a puppy (18 month old male) from my last litter that resides in Chicago. I'd be happy to put you in touch with his owner, if you like, so you can get a "taste" of the breed.

Marcy

We would love to get in contact with the owner if they're willing! Let us know if a meet and greet is possible. :lol: