Thank you for your comments, hopefully as we go along you will all see that I am 100% honest and genuine, even though I have CsV and cross Csv I do want the best and a dream would be to have new pure lines in the uK that are accredited and fully health screened and tested.

You've been mislead there - he is, and has been for some time, banned from this forum and has now resorted to getting other users to post on his behalf. Many on here feel the other users are actually himself... (he has a unique writing style and grammatical grasp of the language that is all his own!)

Earlier in this thread is a post by Nebulosa with a link to an old thread detailing why he has been banned - even on that he is arrogant and threatening!

I'm one to talk - what kind of nonsense is that?!:p:oops:

LOL, I had noticed that actually, LOL
Is there an Official and recognised CsV Club in the UK

BT, W I have never met Paul or Mandy Winder but I think they would be extremely valuable in forming a CSV club in Britain, As I said lets all start afresh

I wish you luck! I am a newbie here too, hard to voice an opinion but stick with it, I am an owner of a pure FC1 shes older now and I brought her with me to work in UK, was a hard decision to go threw putting her threw all that was the worse thing but knew I couldnt leave her ! Now she lives in a little village yorkshire dales amidst fields , farms and tractors and is a star as we pass the tiny village school.

No, and therein lies the problem. No club so no-one has a record of all the pure CsV's in the country, bred there or imported, and that would be needed before FCI recognition could happen...

That's the problem, that you don't. :|

Which reliable and solid breeder breeding "quality" pups could trust somebody whom he perceives a "pup manufacturer" only because the latter says: "I bred mixes last month, but from now onward I'll breed only pure CSV..." :roll: You forget that pure CSVs are very smart and stupid people just do not breed them :)

People clearly see the true motivation of the "converts": pure vlcaks' market will probably be growing and for mixes shrinking... Why should anybody purchase a 1/2 vs 1/3 vs 1/4 hybrid/mix (yes, I saw such a puppy being offered in one of the British kennels :rock_3) for over a 1000 GBP if he may get a pure dog with FCI pedigree, from health tested parents, good HD record and predictable character for half the price?

I think and it's not only my impression, the above discussion has little to do with breeding. More with a struggle for market share. :| Well, I'm not against market mechanisms in general, but even in business trust matters.

I understand that trust matters and maybe some people will join us purely on a money making scheme, but we have to start somewhere, which is why I originally said lets start a club, then visit some European shows to build up trust. but if European breeders dont help us we cant catch up. I read this forum and see that some european breeders breed just for money and use mixes, and they have all the help of Europe behind them, yes I know some British breeders will still do this even try and trick European breeders into selling them dogs. This is not a perfect world but some of us want to try and promote the breed for what we consider the right reasons, all I am asking is give us a chance to prove it.

They don't have the backing and support of reputable breeders once it is shown that they are using mixes. Just look at the problems Crying Wolf has created for herself and for the breed - I don't see a lot of support for her there.

Hi I was'nt saying they were helped to cross-breed just that they can get hold of the CSV's easier than us in Britain, but still do it, so even if we start afresh people will still crossbreed, I mean look how many mongrels there are in the world. So i apologise for not making it clearer what I meant

I have got to ask about the phrase 'People cannot cope'

You said this very recently on a facebook page (within the last 2 weeks) as your 'reason' for crossing these dogs.

Have you now changed your mind?

double standards eh happy feet!!

mr winder didnt want to sell me a dog(which was fine by me!),so according to you there is something wrong with me,but mr winder does not(apparently)want orkwolf to either but thats ok by u!! lol!!!

+

To Pixie:
That's exactly what I had in mind :)

I'm sure there are people who will recieve massif support and backing from continental breeders and owners if only they decide to breed CSV pups, instead of producing them. But I doubt if any good breeder is naive enough to send his pups to somebody who orders dogs like items in e-store. :(

From reading this entire thread I just have a few observations ..

1) Nobody, as I am aware, has accused anyone of mistreating their dogs or not being caring to their dogs. The point is solely that cross-breeding is not in the interest of furthering any purebred breed. Including Vlcaks. And if you do it, you are abusing the breed no matter if you are nice to your own dogs.

2) Nobody has said only a specific person or only UK breeders cross-breed/s. It's well known that there are breeders outside of UK that cross breed, but I don't know where the idea comes from that these breeders are not equally criticized. There are several threads on here that discuss several European kennels known to cross breed. There is even a sticky thread specifically noting which here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17707

3) In regards to crossing CsV because you have to 'work with what you've got', well, this is not a valid argument to me. Here where I am I do not have a breeding female Vlcak within many hundreds of kilometers. But I do have many Chihuahuas and Pit-bulls in this area. Point being, whether or not you breed to a "3/4ths" Vlcak bitch or a Pit-bull, it is cross breeding nonetheless and does nothing to advance the breed no matter where you are. Unless your sole intention to breed is to create 'wolfy looking dogs' without caring to preserve the history and nature of a purebred breed.

4) It's all well and good to want to make a new start, but as Rona said, trust matters. If you were breeding mixes just last month, or ever, really, it doesn't matter that you say you're interested in breeding purebred dogs now (and btw, does that mean that you will ONLY breed purebred dogs from now on, or mostly purebreds with some mixes now and then?).. no good breeder is going to send you a nice bitch or dog until you have proven through action to be interested in the breed and the welfare of it.

No matter what anyone says people are going to judge you by past actions, and rightly so, until you make future actions to prove otherwise.

I hope that there is a group formed that does show that there is a future for well-bred Vlcaks in the UK. And right now, virtually no good breeder is going to send anyone a nice Vlcak to breed with, like Rona said, the only ones to do it at this moment will be other producers.

It takes lots of time to change past histories and perceptions, correct or not, just like politics. It's not going to happen overnight or even by January, if you want to go about it right.

Just my two cents.

[quote=yukidom

Just my two cents.[/quote] Agreed but we need support while we try

:biggrina I totally agree. It was amazing meeting. Same, with the dogs and the owners. I never even did expect such reception. Everyone was so friendly and helpful. People simply wanted to share all knowledge about these dogs, many offered support. And great party. As Rona says, anyone seriously considering a CSV definitely should go to one of these meetings. We regret that we do not live closer, as I would like to be there more often than we can.

In such a case I did wrongly understood it as "possibly CSV from not-FCI registred kennel" :roll: still CSV but from not FCI registred kennel

ahh :) 'lost in translation' maybe? :lol:

Actually to be fair, I have NEVER ever spoken to Mr Winder other than to respectfully send condolences for the loss of his wolf Kizzy. I certainly have NEVER EVER spoken to him about buying a dog, he is absolutely the last person I would go to.

I was told he would not sell me one and that he would make sure I would never have one, well sorry Mr Winder but I can get a UK bred pure CsV just about any time I want, I was told this story by another breeder who I bought my dogs from. Politics? However I want something new and off my own back not off the back of another breeder in the UK.
Thank you.
Paul