Yes, and if you work 8 hours a week and no member of your familiy is at home you shouldn´t breed and think about having dogs at all, but if you have to live of your dogs you depend on low breeding costs and many litters.

Ina

Big fuss about nothing i think...
It rained.. an they look dirty.. duhh....!

They are skinny? ... i think nowadays dogs are to fat and that's the reason that there is HD. Ive seen dogs that where far worse than these ones... what are we talking about for godsake.....?

Why are we not talking about the puppy factory's in belgium for instance... These people are the real problem.

I think this topic is not about the dogs of Corrie but more about the quirrel that mr Al Pacino has with Mrs. Keizer, Why else wait for so long to the this matter to the forum.. :roll:

Best Regards,

Barry Rokven

Hello Barry,
Why do you accuse Belgian "puppy factory's" ? Of CSW ? Which one?

Greats
Patrick Cools

Have some puppy factory in some others breeds too as in CzW around the world, why not talk about all they as Paul have do with Louba Tar kennel here or for the others breeds, put all that in public?
For do that who accuses need real proofs ( for the justice/law, not for us), and that isn't easy to obtain, that's why, if you don't have that you cannot accuse nobody in public secure.
If you know a puppy factory in belgium and want talk about this in public as Paul have do without have problems, you must find proof's and I think that you must enter already with a process against this person before, if no have that already winned for you.

Greetings

Hi Patrick,

There are a lot of puppy factory's in Belgium and in other country's.
I'm not talking about CSW puppyfactory's because i never heard of those... every dog that is bred in bad enviroments is one to many...

But when i look at the pictures of mr. Al Pacino a do not see any wrongdoing.

My comment is made just to put things in perspective.

Best Regards,
Barry

Hi Nebulosa,

Did not see any proof in the postings of Al Pacino.
If there's no real proof the best advise i can give to a person is to not speak about it at all.

I think the posting of Pacino is mean't to harm the breeder, not to save any abused dogs. If he knew that there was a bad thing happening at the Louba Tar kennel, why come forward with it now and not 4 years early'er..

Best Regards,
Barry

May be my other writing belongs here.
Paul said,-the saarloos breed is in safe hands,- is this so? Obvious you donot now that the nvSWH dog's allso have other breeds mixt in theyr population. And they breed with genetic sic dogs, proved by medical specialist's. According to them only they can breed SWH's. And all other are mixes. I have SWH from them and since we proved the problems in theyr population we are bad in theyr eyes. They asked RvB to take away our litters papers. But now they had to give it back and say sorry. Just out of hate. Allso the case with C.K. And now you let them use yourself?
Meaning-Paul first seem to support CK and now fight her. And seems te have had contact with Dutch SWH club who allso are not objective. Looks more like a personel vendetta.
Allthough i agree dogs look to skinny. The mud looking dogs say nothing. I have wolves and hybrides and they live outside. When it rains for day's the ground looks wet. That will be the case with Paul's animals aswell.
Where is smoke there is fire. But some people seem to overdue.
I hope the motivation is the well being of the dogs and not to a personel vendetta.
Jos

He don't need post the proofs for they exists ;-) , I really not believe that someone will arriving here made such accusations without have all right with the law.
Can be that he don't put all proofs here as not had give complets replies because isn't all 100% done, and if he put somethings in public that can help the breeder to run away of the accusations, can be...

Normally isn't easy find proofs valid by the law, principally when that involves animals and breeding, I not exclude the possibility that was because this that he haven't put all that in public before.

But I really cannot believe that this is only a private fight between the two
if that is will be one "suicide attack" made a public topic like that.

hi Barry, my posting is meant to do all you say puppy mills must be stopped any info on ANY puppy mills please send it to me and action will be taken as soon as hard evidense is made available, read my posts and see why i had to wait a long time, as for Mrs Keizer she can now after reading my posts if she likes Take me to court, i know if someone slandered me like this and it were not true i would,,, wouldnt you? we wait in anticapation for reply from Mrs Keizer or her llegal representitive, and have no fears at all of seeing her in any courtat any time, pacino

Dear (Al) Pacino,

Haha... why.. should SHE.. take YOU to court?
Oh please... i think you give yourself to much credit here....

Maybe it's better not to get yourself involved in slander, and enjoy the dogs you have yourself. There's better ways to spend your time i think.

Best Regards,
Barry

Hi,

sorry folks, but this is a forum for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
I'm more concerned about, although Paul's pics still look disgusting to me, is the fact that Ms Keizer has turned the CSW's coming from her different kennels within 12 years or so into a type of dogs which are hardly CSW's according to the standard. Both in character and phenotype.
Many of them look and behave very Saarlooslike.
Either something happened on purpose or she is just a pathetic breeder.
And doesn't know much about CSW's.
The latter I can prove through a personal talk at a dog show.
But I think the first two points are a topic worthy to be discussed on this forum, since our breed is unfortunately involved.
What I, as a breeder and lover of CSW's definetely not want is the character and the not counted diseases of many Saarloos Wolfdogs.
Even purebred CSW's are not free of health problems as often written.

Michael

Hello,

Off topic, but in reading the posts, it made me curious - other than the tempermental, and hip dysplasia issues, what other problems are found in the Saarloos?

Thanks,
Marcy

Two different kinds of PRA (Progressiv Retina Atrophie), one kind linked with a Cerebellumdegeneration and Epilepsie. All of them rezessiv, what is a problem if there are CSW with crossed in Saarloos because it would be realised quite late.

Ina

HD is not really an issue, looks like we got it from the TWH. PRA is something what we are working on but with a small population this is not easy. A bigger problem is the inbreed depression, smal litters or no pups at all or dead born puppys.
Jos

thanks for the advice but if you dont mind i will still go ahead with the legal action in Holland and put an end to this puppy mill and all the other breeders involved with it,, i do enjoy my dogs but at least i know where they were born and registered not like a lot of people who bought dogs from this puppy mill,

hi, yes we can see what happens from this kennel, we have seen the dogs at shows in Europe, major problem because if they are appearing at shows it means they are being REGISTERED AS CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS ........being bred from, pups being sold to unweary people , it must be stopped,,,,,,paul

Paul, you do not apply to my writing. I still ask myself what your motivation is and who you work with. This SWHclub want's to protect theyr own puppy sale. And as i said a personel vendetta. My organisation is there to protect SWH and hybrides and wolves. I still see no proof. I there for ask myself if it is that bad. And i ask myself what you are doing is this good for the SWH.
Jos

HI Ina, do you base that assumption on Garou loup and littermates or do you actually have information from a specialist. If so please name that specialist, this information might be important.
Sofar, all i know is that the SWH shows 2 kinds of PRA, one late onset ,one early onset. The dogs with early onset that i know don't show signs of cerbellumdeg or epilepsie, dito ofcourse for the ones with late onset!

I did not write they show signs of cerebellum Epilepsie but of Cerebellum Degeneration. The Epilepsie is seperate of that.
I know that of several breeders and owners from Germany and Holland, the case of Cerebellum Degeneration that I know the owner personally was as far as I remember diagnosed in the University Vet Clinic of the Justus-Liebig-Universität Giessen. Which did a DNA-Research too. I don´t know your dog and I don´t know his littermates , so I can´t tell you if they are one of the problem dogs, but there are more Saarloos than yours or the littermates of your dog. Those problems are openly discussed since a very long time and I am always astonished how few communication there is between the different countries in the Saarloos world and the fights there are between Clubs and breeders or owners. The last thing I was told was that the two PRA types occure seperately in the Dutch Club and the German Club . As a vet I am interested in all news about inherited diseases but as Michael wrote before this is a CSW-Forum not a Saarloos one.

For me those genetic diseases are definitly a reason why I would highly apriciate if we would get proofed informations if the rumours about CSW with Saarloos-blood are right or not. This would give future problems to our breed and though I agree with Jos that it is of no benefit for the Saarloos if Saarloos with CSW-blood would be thrown out of the register am I not thinking that it is the right way to help the health status of one breed on cost of the other breed.

Ina

neither did i ;)
(just rered what i have written)

.
My information about the "nebenerscheinungen" in SWh with PRA on a early onset is from this site, or bettter said, the owner C Schroder: http://freenet-homepage.de/whitefang/d0_garou.htm Would be interesting to know if we speak about the same litter or if you know of another case with similair disease pattern!