|
pessimism..
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thank you. |
i cannot travel atm.. a yahoo group imo is a good idea,as i believe not much would be achieved by a rushed meeting that lasts a day..of course a meeting eventually will need to be arranged, but imo for now ,the groundwork can be done by the amazing inventions the internet and phone :lol:
|
Quote:
|
I also think that for now, the internet/phone is the way to go.
Skype could be useful. Taz |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
il set one up now...what shall it be called lol :lol: |
Quote:
this all sounds positive, can anyone join it? how do I open a 'facebook' page though?? I dont have this social network? can anyone make one? thanks for your help in advance :) |
Quote:
|
Why dont you make two groups?
One open to other breeders and more experienced people (which you trust) to help - worldwide - and one close and invisible ONLY to UK serious breeders, to decide and judge what has been talked on the first group, also to decide together who will make what, which interesting litters should you import pups and which interesting studs should you seek for cover your females and so on? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
does that not defeat the object for UK owners and breeders? only 1 group is required. already you are choosing who you want in your click? would it not be better to be open and upfront if you want a recognised breed in the UK and everyone working together in my opinion. |
Quote:
Dont you think from this statement you have just isolated the group, this is totally rediculous!!!!!!!! |
Quote:
|
Quote:
or line their own pockets shocked and disgusted and you dont even own a dog! horrified :oops: |
Quote:
|
Quote:
and encourageing an inner circle this is terrible, i was asked to read through this by other members but I am shocked to see such behaviour and from a moderator too.. this is not the way to get support from pure breed owners, you are not showing your intentions very well at all i am shocked |
Quote:
What intentions? What I said is I would like to join group on Facebook, then it was suggested to create another group, and I said I think this is good idea. If I don't want to discuss all matters openly it is because I would't trust everyone who will join us on Facebook. I think not everyone will be happy if such club will get created, and start to run properly. What intentions do you think I do have? |
Sorry but I'm not understanding the hysteria.
All breed clubs have appointees and what not.. and, I wouldn't take so much offense if I was new to a group and wasn't automatically included in such.. you might find with time, when people get to know you better, that you very well could be. Just sayin'.. |
Quote:
Considering that CzW is not an new breed in UK, but an breed which already has been bred there and was KILLED by its own breeders - which were supose to protect and select the breed - and that's why we have this topic right now. To make an open group which allows everyone to get in would be like an early death. Sorry, but I would never send a dog to someone who are in the same group of Pacino, for exemple. If they want to start again, they will NEED to be VERY selective of who will make part as breeder in their group, mainly in an country with burned reputation worldwide like in UK. Contrary you will never be able to revive the breed there, as maximaly you will get will be low quality dogs which none wants in their country. |
Any Club has a committee??
It is set up by electing a chairperson, etc ..... What's the problem with everyone joining, maybe everyone who is interested doing a Bio and what they hope to sort for the club, then everyone electing? Or putting forwards names? |
Quote:
That's why in clubs, there are rules as to who holds voting status usually. ..everyone is free to join, but not everyone is free to vote. |
Quote:
There is so much bad feeling about, that any exclusion at the moment is going to seem like there is a hidden agenda. Possibly a temporary committee, until peoples loyalty and commitment can be assessed? |
"that a large portion of people would vote contrary to the well-being of the breed?"
!!!!???why???!!!! |
Quote:
Look at the breed at the moment in the UK. The breeders who are existing now have had every opportunity to do things differently, yet don't. There isn't anything stopping them. But somehow they should be involved in a club with voting rights? :shock: Voting rights in many clubs are contingent upon people being in good standing with existing KC rules.. |
Another important thing, I told 2 different groups, one closed to selected UK breeders which will REALLY breed pure Czechoslovakian wolfdogs or help the breed in serious way, and one to people worldwide helps, like other breeders, do you all wonder why?
Then, read this topic to have an idea of what people from other countries had already passed with some "breeders" who pops trying to sell dogs in an easy way for any owner who whish it and is willing to pay the price required. It's not only for importing pups, but with an closed group you will be able to talk openly about "why not use stud X or Y" in your breeding at that moment, without the owner or the breeder of the said stud pops at your forum in an hysterical attack telling that his stud is perfect because he won several shows and have no health problems. Unfortunatelly, not all people are mature enough to openly accept that some times their studs or pups are not interesting to one country specifically. |
and some would just like their pets to be recognised and not be breeding machines?
all this ranting must look awful to newbies, mini reminder that this is an open forum and that you are being viewed by many people i.e. guests and this threads not promoting recognition in the UK very well at all |
Quote:
But how is that contrary to what I'm saying? All I'm saying is there has got to be some rules in place. Is that unreasonable? |
Quote:
My fear would be that if certain people were not allowed in, objections could be made at a later date which would prevent things from moving forwards, *if* a fair way could be found, then said people would not have objections at a later date. |
Quote:
Yes, I hope everyone from UK who loves CzW, who breed mixes or who wants to breed pure dogs read this topic, and realise that THANKS the people who start with the breed in your country we have such situation. That thanks to them people who want to make a serious work will have to fight for gain the trust of the breeders again and that trust is a very fragile thing which can be broken at any small mistake. Suppose european breeders start to trust you now and accept to send some dogs to your country, then years after it this same breeder discouver that their pups, sended to UK for breed pure dogs, has been used to make mixes and help unscrupulous people to gain money with pointless breeding? Sorry, but for me as breeder it would be like an forever place for UK in my blacklist, and I can be sure that yout country will not be only at my list. |
as a newbie here, in my opinion {which perhaps doesnt really count in the whole scheme of things} and as an owner of a registered dog as a family pet , I am not convinced by the other members of the inner circle to their true intentions. Who decides who to include or not to include its seems very underhanded . Reading it from the start its enough to put anyone off.
I agree it has to start somewhere but surely the 'inner circle' needs to show to others they are true and fair and equal? This is not whats being reflected! |
Quote:
|
Quote:
As we can have an "inner circle" with new people interested in work, we can have an "inner circle" with people who only wants new blood for their mixes. |
Quote:
:) theres a first time for everything! my hearts in the right place but I find this 'inner circle' thingy a little un easy |
Quote:
|
Just a quick search on the Web came up with this, but this does not seem to be in relation to setting up a breed club, just standard rules that have to be adhered to *if* the KC get involved.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/480 Possibly Hedeon could email his contact and ask what rules have to be adhered to if setting up a breed club? ....That is if you want to go down the KC route? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
We certainly need a comitee but not just breeders owners as well, and we have to have a sound membership procedure, so that people are vetted as best we can, and we definetly need to contact the KC to find out exact requirments for recognition
|
Happyfeet and Blaidd banned for being clones also for start to act like an troll.
Topic cleaned as well, we can continue talking about CzW in Uk. |
Going back to a point made on the code of ethics, the following are just a few things that came to mind, with regards to breeders. More will probably follo.
That dogs/bitches to be used for breeding have some kind of assessment of their character. Wether that be a specific temperament test created by the club or, that they have to prove thmselves in areas such as obedience, working trials etc. That breeders have their dog/bitches as a minimum hip scored and dm tested. That all puppies are dna profiled. I'm also wondering if puppies should have some kind of id e.g microchip before they go to their new homes. That bitches are a minimum of 2 years old before their first litter. I'm tempted to say the same for studs to...thoughts anyone? That no bitch will be used for breeding after their 7th birthday. That no breeder will use their dog/bitch to create mixes. Then of course there's the obvious stuff like providing food, water, shelter, exercise, vet care and taking back any of the dogs/pups they've bred at anytime, for any reason, if the owner can't/will no longer keep them. Has that yahoo/fb group been created yet? Taz |
Hi taz :)
Can u pm me your fb details please? :) |
Quote:
|
You have to take care with the rules for not turn too hard for the breeders chose different males, if you putas rule, for exemple, that all dogs used for breeding must have Elbows Displasy results or that they must be all N/N will be really hard for breeders to bring new blood and even for go to mate with different studs at other countries - something which will be REALLY needed, principally at the start of the breeding there -
Not only that, suppose you find an old dog from an very interesting line in your country, its an pure imported animal which the owner accepted to make the X rays, if there is as "rule" that the dog should have characer test and several dogshows it might make this owner give up of the idea and you will lost an very interesting stud. I think you should put as rule for all dogs living in UK for breeding the need of Elbows and Hips displasy results, hips not higher than C, elbows not higher than 0-0 as elbows displasy is quite rare in the breed yet but extremely dangerous in an breed with such small genetic pool as CzW, as there are an small ammount of dogs with some degree of elbows displasy will be no problem to the breed itself make such rigorous selection. Microchip is something easy and practical which I find crucial, the tatoo often used usualy get erased with time and then impossible to read. Also is easier to erase an tatoo than took out microchip, I think microchip is safer for the dog and owner, identification is never too much. |
Quote:
I agree with your points! ,when and if the breed is accepted 'showing' would partly take place as a character test imo as no dog with a bad one would be able to be shown and certainly shouldn't be placed Also I prefer microchip,....getting ahead of myself here put all litters dm tested too as well as dna |
DNA profiles are something which will be really important to the breed itself soon, but mainly to UK, where we have several people breeding mixes and people finding it normal. Also it's not hard neither expensive to do.
I agree with the DM test, but you shouldn't take it too serious when we talk about selection as even the veterinary which did the tests recommend people to treat it as one common standard fault. I really worry about some people reaction to the DM test results, it's great to try to select only free dogs, but it really shouldn't be put in first place. Also the gene SOD1, which is tested at DM test is easy to get rid of at the breeding, different of hips and principally of elbows displasy, for exemple. |
Quote:
Firstly, thankyou to Nebulosa for recreating an open discussion forum :) Taz, Great ground work... On the point of microchipping, this will be essential for all dogs before any DM, DNA testing etc as otherwise, the results will be meaningless. I know that Laboklin have a lab in the UK - maybe it would be worth approaching them to see if you can negotiate some kind of club discount - after all, once you good people get this show on the road, you will be putting a LOT of work their way :) I know that I, for one, will be having all future pups both DM screened and DNA profiled prior to them leaving us (one blood sample covers all...), so don't know if you would like to consider this as a possibility too? Great that you are suggesting minimum and maximum ages for breeding bitches and like the inclusion of the character test, but like Tupacs2legs says - showing is a type of character test in itself. And the BAN on mixing is essential if you hope the KC to take you all seriously (and will open up so many more bloodlines from Europe for you all). Well done!! I know you and Pixie and Tupacs2legs (and all the others - sorry not to mention you all, but you - and we - know who you are :rock_3) have only the breed's interests at heart and will succeed in getting things moving at last. |
Quote:
|
Just a wee thought...
If you are having to start all this over with the KC, how about going the same way as the US and calling the breed Czechoslovakian Vlcak to distance yourselves from the 'wolf', 'wolfdog' and 'wolf look-alikes' connotations? |
Quote:
oh,and thankyou for your kind words :) (u know i will be bending your ear! lol) |
Quote:
I was thinking that the character test could be for dogs in the uk, if someon wants to use a dog outside the uk, then its at their discretion. I agree with regards to elbow testing and dm, I think using carriers providing 2 aren't mated with each other is fine, esp as the breed has a small gene pool. Taz |
Quote:
Taz |
Quote:
|
Quote:
It would seem it is us native English speakers who must have changed the name to something easier for us at some point in the past :oops: |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Agree showing is a good test of character and approaching Laboklin is definitely something to consider, great suggestion. Normally I'd say that no crossbreeding should go without saying however, given the current situation, I think it needs to be highlighted so that no one is in any doubt as to the clubs position on it. Taz |
I also prefer Vlcak. Though what is the correct way to say it? Want to make sure I'm getting it right.
Though as I said in a previous post, I don't think they should be grouped with the herding breeds as they are in other countries. Taz |
Here in Bulgaria it is pronounced ''Vulchack'' but the 'u' isn't really pronounced just kinda caught in the back of your throat, if you know what I mean?
I have seen people write that they have heard it pronounced more like ''veal chuck''... Guess it would be best to find out how it is pronounced in Czech or Slovakian and go with the more authentic sounding name :) |
Quote:
|
Quote:
ceskoslovensky vlcak is what i would like. :) i thought it was said veelchuck but i was speaking to someone the other day and they said it was pronounced more like.. 'vilk' |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
But should it be original "ceskoslovensky" or english "czechoslovakian"? |
So what is the consensus on how to pronounce Vicak? :?
|
There's a sound clip here on WD, posted when the question was asked before.
In it, (maybe it was a Czech-speaker) it sounded more like vul-chak (vul, rhymes with with the beginning part of 'wolf'. I wonder which is right? I'll try to dig up the link. ETA: Here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14853 |
Ok, well that clears that up quite nicely.
Taz |
|
Quote:
Taz |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Any progres to report ?!
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I was very surprised to see this the following on wolfdog after all the slating and bashing my small kennels have received for daring to "bastardise" the breed. I was shocked to see people openly cross and mix breed here! http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/5570 http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/7853 Ive also just been reading another thread here where they are debating a experimental mating which took place in CZ in 2003 with pure female Canadian wolf and CSV without registration. Apparently the F1 pups from this mating has been registered as CSV dogs and the laugh is that the "pure" CSV is a cross of Carpathian wolf with GSD NOT a Canadian Wolf. The Saarloos is outcome of Canadian wolf with GSD. They have F1 crosses there which possibly has been mixed with breeding of pure CSV and all of them are stating that kennels Passo del Lupo and Foresta Incantata have mixed some of the offspring of this experimental dogs into their breeding. So there is a good chance that such dogs are still in CZ so what a laugh them talking about crossbreeds if they mixed in the wrong wolf to start with and potentialy even in some cases the selling of hybrids. Makes Orkwolf with a handful of dogs and all the hype that that has created seem a little like a pin in a haystack to what is really going on with the breed! However we will be breeding pure in the future. Thanks |
Have you not seen the multiple threads on here about Mutara, and Passo del Lupo? Have you ever wondered why PdL's litters are banned from WD, even the purebred matches? Nobody is excused and small scale mutt breeders aren't 'less worse' than large. Mutara as I understand were denied from slovak and czech registration. And all offspring from this 'project' are marked so in the database.
|
Quote:
It amazes me how certain ones outside the UK slate me for crossing, yet their "best friends" in the UK cross their pet csv mixed dogs with husky mix and they dont say a word on here about them, hypercritical lol |
Well, this reactions shows perfectly that you have NO IDEA ABOUT THE BREED, I wonder how could you wish to breed a breed which you have nor even idea about its history or about whats happening, its problems and so on.
It means that even if you try to breed pure, you surely wish nothing more than money by selling pups. Well, information is everywhere in English and soon will be quite easy to send a dog to UK, your kingdom of missinformation to mistaken people for selling mutts will end, im used with puppy mills people, I understand your desperation. |
Quote:
Im not desperate I can assure you I am very happy with what ive got and my plans, thanks xx |
Are you serious?
So as long as someone else does something wrong, it's ok for you to do the same... LOL.. :?
|
Gladia - Passo Del Lupo & Crossing..
I almost had to change undergarments when I saw Gladia PdL in Piter's pedigree.. Fortunately, it is a different Gladia dating back before PdL's inappropriate crossing and passing off as CsVs.. There is no welcoming committee here for idiots just breeding dogs for the sake of breeding dogs. We are here to to help and support experienced CsV breeders as well as people who are new to the breed... as long as they prove themselves to be responsible.. I have already screwed up on that note having my first litter accidentally! Thankfully, the parents' health tests are OK and all of the pups turned out excellent! I am working hard to do the best I can, and raise the healthiest dogs, and people who think it is cool to randomly cross take a big crap on the hard work others have done.. I suppose there will always be hybrids, but make it crystal clear to all involved this fact! Orkwolf, if you're sincere about breeding pure next, please just accept the fact that some of us are on edge due to recent discoveries of bad breeding practices. Please respect this and move on.. At least know that, if you move in the right direction, there is a community you can rely on in the future.
|
|
| All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:29. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org