I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...:|

:shock: so it's not even possible to tell if two dogs are full siblings if all we have are specimens from the two?

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding. :cry:

...and claim rectification from the breeder? :rock_3

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

Thank you all, you have cleared up a lot of questions in my mind :)

Now I am only a little confused instead of completely...

It is a shame that DNA from the siblings (and their lines) cannot be used as I, for one, would have submitted that for a test.

Surely there should be a clear difference due to the different wolf subspecies used in creation of the breeds. Of course these mix breedings done during the years have messed up that to some extent but it should be possible to recognize such mixes also by comparing the dog's genes with the genes of European and American wolves.
But how much the fact, that also GSD was created from wolf x dog crosses, would problemize this since it is in both CsV and SWH?
Is there allready a DNA profile for GSD done? If there is, then it is possible to rule out the genes typical for GSD, and distinguish the ones that are not.

Within the last 15 years there has been massive genetic studies of wolves around the world and these days they can even genetically distinguish different wolf subspecies inside the US. So I'd think it should be relatively easy to distinguish an European wolf from American.

The price for such a test is likely to be alot more expencive than the average parental test though.

It is hard to writew it but it seems so.
Due to the fact that the Crying Wolf breeder do not agree to make the DNA tests (is affraid that the true will be shown?) which will proove that father of Sibir is Galiba and that no Saarloos was used by this kennel (intentionally or not). And because we can have doubts by all dogs sired by him - the only reasonable option is to remove all litters with this blood and really put the option "under investigation" warning next to all dogs with the suspicious Crying Wolf blood.
Maybe owners of the offsprings will be more successful by clearing this story.

one opinion
 

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!
To see what happened when Frank posted his result (Yanatos) these people are not ready to make it for public.
Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

And the kennel Neckartal ....
I think it is enough to see the data sheet ..
Edit for dogs are beautiful, and it is a fact.
Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of.
One breeder is at home in Hungary, and she is Edit.
We only can we learn from the big breeders.
I see a pointless debate ...
Why can not we bring together more?

She made it? How can we be sure that she took the blood of the right dogs - males? Why she didn't agree to test the dogs on the official way or by the Lorry's vet and the official laboratory?
Did she testeds the DNA of Sibir - did she have proofs that he is the son of Galiba? I will ask Lorry if she get the copy of the results.

So far: taking into consideration the fact that in many cases words written and published here by Edith were simple lies I will personally not trust her even a bit.
I would be also surprised if any breeder would say "my dogs are mixes"...

If the dogs are OK than I think it will be no problem to make a official comission (maybe made by the clubs from the origin countries) who will travel there and take blood of the dogs (not all of course because there are too many - i mean only the suspicious one. The same can be done in France. It will be pretty easy to arrange it, right?

When? I remember the case when she bred the 10 years old bitch after she told she will not breed her anymore and that even that her kennel club forbid breeding with so old dogs. I do not wonder that many breeders didn't agreed with such style of breeding. But it was not attacking but they were just speaking theirs mind. It is something normal on a disscusion forum.

Can you repeat it to Lorry? She had to take out of breeding her male and female and also all the offspring of the dogs. Becasue nobody DREAMS about red or Saarloos alike puppies.

Believe me - I'm not an longtime owner but reading the post posted here on forum I hope nobody would learn from her how to breed or how to keep the dogs. In mMy opinion every dog deserves a stately life and decent living conditions and what I see on the photos taken in her kennel do not fullfil even the minimun of the requirements.

Reply
 

Dear Admin!

Misunderstood me.

I wrote the owner of the Neckartal kennel the last rows.
This whole situation is depressing ...
And infuriating ...
They should act together not stretched as a common goal.
In my opinion Edit breeders.
A great success with their dogs.
Of course, as many others.

And you see, not only internationally but also in Hungary is taking place to discredit each other.
I have had enough of this ..
I do not understand the whole thing ... why is it good?

Neckartal kennel ....
In my case, you know ...
I did not write forums it would be a reason.

Sooner or later the truth always reveals.

Regards:
Aniko Molnar
vom Hause Norky kennel

I'll agree anytime with the things Norky spoke of. If you do DNA tests asked by others, because at the moment they say not to buy dogs from Hungarian people. I'm Hungarian too. I would do the test for peace. And if the test is good, there's no place for arguments.

P.S. I congratulate you for your best dog (titles, character --- CH. Nork von Neckartal)

Maybe you bought it from a breeder?

:)
 

Hehehe
Yes, I bought from you.
(non-breeder)
Nork: hd c
Myra: hd d
I bought for breeding purposes, but you did not take any responsibility.
Screening results of the parents have not seen,and very interesting on this side either.
This is not a work of breeders.

But if you think you still proceed.

Myra: hd d

but you bred her

reply
 

Yes, you're right ...
The breeder said HD:B
I was doing a formal investigation and revealed the truth...

what are you talking about? you say that monita is not a breeder and show here 1 bad hd result. did you see hd results of dogs bred by edit? dm results?.. each kennel can have some pups with bad hd, even from healthy lines and parents. this is not a reson to blame people by this way, sorry.

and "breeder said" - you believed it without official evaluation and bred tmyra wothout it?..

Reply
 

Not a bad result there is a problem ...
The attitude ...
Yes, I believed in what he says ...but I will not do

If you had been in this situation,I do not think so you could see that.


But really it's all the same...

nor you if you had red pups or dogs suffering from dm...

reply
 

You know, this is all a joke...

Everyone here want to destroy each other ..
It's disgusting and disappointing ..

Why should it?

I do not participate in this...

and some of us want to destroy the breed, yes

exactly...

I would like to understand... Why some dogs named "!!!MIX!!!" are put as mix in the database?
Did DNA test have been done for them? And if it’s the case why often the 2 parents shown in there pedigree are real CsV?

Like for example: Ckynaï de la Louve Blanche (!!!_MIX_!!!) who is: 2 x Best Puppy, 4 x BOB, 1 x Best Junior, 2 x CACIB, 4 x CACS, 1 x res. CAC, 3 x res. CACIB, 3 x CAC, 1 x res. CACS, Ch.LUX

I believe the pedigree is posted as it exists under FCI papers, no matter what, if DNA tests prove otherwise..

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore? :rock_3

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

The father of Ckinay, CPouchka and maybe some other dogs from this litter is American Wolfdog Uncas. It was written somewhere here. But the database base on the FCI pedigree information. If the pedigrees will be canceled/fixed it will be done also here.

reply
 

strange: you want DNA test, but doesn't believe the results....you want DNA test, but you kow to make parentage test is impossible as her old dogs, which are questionable for you are dead.
To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.
And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.For cooperation needs two part: you cancel her HD results, assist to the topics about her kennel and dogs yera by year.
year by year,
telling a lot of unreal thigs: like the kennelklub forbid to make pedigree her pups....??????????
I realy don't think that these forum would be for the breed. I'm sure many people are escape when see your bloody-mounth group!
And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????
What is the problem Margo??? You can't sale you pups?? You attact many breeders and talking lies and lies and lies. What is the fact?? You haevn't got nothing againt Edit!!!! Nothing!!!
And do you think a special judge would give a saarloose mix Re. CACIB in WDH Bratislava (Volos) or mate his male with a saarloose mix (Issar-Flash) ????
Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???
something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.
Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????
STOP INSULTING EDIT and OWNER OF HER DOGS!!!!!

http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...om/IMG/cw2.jpg

:lol:

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????

We are talkin about 2000's......the time when Galiba and Flash born.Or do you think this saarloose live forever?

did anybody tell that galiba is a mix, or maybe flash??? i understood that it's still unknown from which dog it started. this photo shows possibility of appearing of a saarlos mix, no? all about this was written, maybe you didn't read...

reply
 

Who wrote????I think we don't read the same forum!
and : Edit bred lajkas, she has a malinois male (also red) and breed hungarian wirehair vizsla (also red)
It means she made mixes with lajkas, malinois or vizslas?????
Is she the only one breeder who has csw and saarloose??????

No need for writing and talking senselessly. I think the breeders have only one request: official DNA test. And everything will be clear.

Please read again what I wrote about the red colour and how it is heritated! It is the most basic rule of the dog coat colour genetics. It is not STRANGE - it is normal.:) NORMAL is that the red color appears first later (when two genes meet) because it is RECESSIVE!

There are more CW owners which want to make the DNA tests. Are they also "sent by devil"? It is so bad that people want to know the truth? Some people really care about it - it is not because they want to fight with any breeder. They just want to be sure that dogs which they bought as CsW are really CsW. And the breeders want to know if the dogs they plan to use (who have CW blood) are real CsW.
Believe me - I will be the most happy person if everything will be cleared and it will be showed that the dogs are purebreed. It was enough damage done to our breed last time. We do not need one more mess.

Read what I wrote ONE MORE TIME - I don't think that Galiba is a mix. It is simple - he has born before the Sarloos was bought by CW.
BUT 1) I see there WAS a Saarloos living by CW, 2) Edith LAID that the dog can not be father of the puppies because he is sterilized and 3) she didn't agree to the DNA tests even when Lorry was prepared to pay for them.
Maybe for you it is normal behavior of a breeder. Not for me.

I was in Slovakia and I know what the breeders there think about it. Believe me - you don't want that I repeat the opinions about CW which I heard there. Czech Republic is not different. Everybody involved in the breed knows what is told during the meetings but never published officially. It is the reason why none of the esteemed breeders belong to the group of CW friends.
BUT remember - it is not about blaming the dogs! Maybe we do not agree with the style of breeding but it do not influence the breeding. If CW has nice and healthy dogs they will be used. The problem now is that there are serious doubts about their origin and pedigrees.

Sorry but I think you missed all the topics written here. The red Wolfdogs were born in a litter where BOTH parents are Crying Wolf dogs. The parentage test was done and it confirmed that the parents are the mentioned CW dogs. Do you want to say that Lorry is a liar?

What with the white/lilac puppies - should we believe that Hanka painted them using photo shop? Do you want to say that Hanka is a liar?

What is with the masks which appear by this "line". Are they caused because the owner love to paint their dogs? Are they liars too?

I never suggested that it was done intentionally? I think it is possible that she even had no idea that it happen. Till the red puppies were born.
Look, we all own Wolfdogs and we all know how clever they are. And we have photos where we can see the kennels were the dogs live by CW. I'm sorry but even not very strong and not very cleaver Wolfdog will have no problem to brake out of them. The fences? I will not leave here dogs alone not even for 5 minutes. The photos convinced me that there can be something true in all the stories told last time he...

Anyway I joined the group of breeder who apply the rule of "good CsW breeders": not to use any dogs coming from kennels which breed Saarloos and CsW at the same time...


But let's go back to the topic and let's make it different - we have three main things:
- red puppies born out of two Crying Wolf dogs
- white/lilac puppies born out the CW female
- Saarloos masks appeared by some CW offsprings

For every part are responsible different genes. So to exlain it with "mutation" we must agree that we have here 3 different mutations. Hard to believe because it would be not mutation but a miracle.

Do you have any other SCIENTIFIC explanation for it? I will even leave by side the other things like the "passive" Saarloos-alike character and the problems with wide set hanging ears which some people mentioned before.
Let's try to exlain only the three things.... :roll: With no personal attacks - just pure facts....

PS. I really understand your rage as all dogs which you own are Crying Wolf dogs. But believe me - also for you it will be the best solution if the official DNA tests will be done and we will finally end the CW-story. Genes do not lie. If the parentage will be officially confirmed - GREAT!
But till now it looks so - Edith do not want to cooperate with the owners of her puppies, the official clubs seem not to be interested. Private people can not do anything even if they want...

So at the moment we have three possible casses:
1) some of the CW dogs are Saarloos mixes and the Saarloos mixes spread among our breed
OR
2) the CW dogs are pure and their owners are charged unfounded
OR
1+2) some CW dogs are mixes and the mixes spread among the breed and there are also pure CW dog whose owners are charged

Every possibility is not OK - it is why we must finally SOLVE it (do not mix it with "HIDE it").

Because we all know know how the "private" DNA test are done. :? The blood is taken by the vet. ANY vet. It is enough that a friend of the breeder is a vet and it is childish easy to cheat the tests. It would be for example possible to take the blood of the Saarloos and sign it as the blood for example of Galiba. Or even send the blood of any three other dogs where it is sure that the puppy is osring of the tested parents.

I'm sorry but I heard already how the Dutch tests were cheated in similar case. And because of it I will not believe in any test which was not done on the official way - where the blood was not take by a official commission.

No. You do not understand it. I mean that some parents of the suspicious dogs do not live anymore. So it is NOT POSSIBLE to make the DNA test. And Edith say she made it. HOW?

In such cases there is a possibility to make tests basing on halfsibilings or similar dogs. But as Daniela wrote - it is hard and problematic. Daniela works on the university. It is strange that is is hard for her but it was easy to do for Edith.
I really do not understand which dogs were tested and HOW. :roll:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo (Bericht 403281) The father of Ckinay, CPouchka and maybe some other dogs from this litter is American Wolfdog Uncas. It was written somewhere here. But the database base on the FCI pedigree information. If the pedigrees will be canceled/fixed it will be done also here.

Thank you Margo,

But, I'm still wondering... Did DNA test have been done to prove that the father is not Crying wolf Merlin? Or did the breeder admit that the real father of this litter is an American Wolfdog?

I'm lost and also feel very concerned by all this matter...

There are around 300 dogs with Galiba blood and something like 200 with Flash blood... Are they all suspects? WOW... It’s really not a good thing for our breed... And it’s only based on suppositions...
The CsV is a quite new breed I’m not so sure that it’s good thing to reduce is number of specimen only base on suppositions... I know, I'm not going to make me friends with this kind of words but it’s seens true for me. The best we can do for now, if we cannot have test from Galiba, Flash and others, is probably to oblige breeders to make DNA test on all there new litters to be accept as “Pure Breed CsV”...

Priska, but the saarloos inmixing can bring very unwanted characteristics into the breed - like the red color, the untypical mask, the untypical ears. All these things are faults that should remove the animal from breeding. OK, we know about the genetics of the red color, so we are able to take it away in few generations, if we really want, although it also meand great reduction of population. But what about the other traits which we have no idea about? How can we get rid of them if we allow spreading of mixes in our population? Not speakin about the character, saarloos are nice dogs, but not working breed, if some people claim that even now the CSW are losing their working abilities what will happen if we use mixes in the population? It will change the breed completely.

and it might give other perhaps not-great breeders some excuse to do some 'experiments', as long as they can keep it hidden for long enough. to me there isn't a statute of limitations on what will be registered as purebred - the dog either is, or isn't, and the only exception is when an official body approves otherwise.

I totally agree with you Saschia, but we're pointing with the finger on a lot of dogs without real proof... :(

I am totally sure, that it is much better not to breed suspicious dogs TEMPORARY, than to deal with even bigger number of offsprings later, if the suspicions are really truth...

Yes and I think all breeders think like this to :roll: ???

Best regards / Mikael

CSW or not
 

I´m the lookey owner of a dog, she is everything I can ask for.
I haven´t been on Wolfdog.org in about a half year I think.
And now this evening I have some time to look inhere.
Now this visit have given me a bad feeling.:?
My reason to buy a CSW is that I always will work with old original animals, there are few of in the hole world (genetic preserving) I think in my bad english ;)
Now I hope someone can tell me, do I now have a mixdog or a CSW.
My dogs name is Fanthagiro Crying Wolf, what do I have to do, so I can get peace in my head again:roll:
I do not like the way some of you talk to each other, It is not good for the breed, and do you not care for bad publisity you give of the forum. the best for CSW will be an official DNA-test of all dogs.
I´m not a breeder, but in my seach for a good dog I have seen a lot of dogs with big, big ears, and not the "right" Wolfy look.
For me Fantha look all right, but is it all right under the fur.
Sorry my bad english, I hope you can understand it :lol:

I've been reading the thread and have one very sad reflection:

Why can't the affected owners/breeders count on their Kennel Clubs' help and get support from these organizations in such case and similar ones? Why is FCI so impotent? Has the Slovakian Breed Club, the breed guarant, done anything to press the KC and FCI so far?

The kynological institutions set the rules, but when it comes to their implementation and execution, don't care at all, (so why should the owners and breeders follow them?) Still they take money for membership, shows, registering matchings, litters, etc. etc.

I wonder if sending many letters to their local KC AND Hungarian KC AND FCI by worried owners/breeders would help make them act... If one person posts, it may be disregarded, but if a few hundered affected owners/breeders wrote and requested action and official DNA checking? Could they keep ignoring them?

Just an idea, maybe naive...:oops:

OK, I'm in! I will send a letter worded as officially and professionally as I can. Even if it makes no difference, I know I will have tried as much as I could! Let's spread the idea, no?

Maybe Lorry should start, as she brought this issue up and attempted first to act. Ideally she would publish an official statement with photos of the affected (untipical) dogs on her website (I know she doesn't like WD ;)), so that the owners could have something to refer to in their letters and petitions.

Lorry, if you do it I hope people will at least try to help you solve your "riddle", and ... chapeaux bas.

I, too, am in... it doesn't only need to be afected owners/breeders, all of us who love the breed and want to know that the pedigrees mean something should get involved. We all need an end to this problem and Galiba's DNA is the only sure way to get it. Personal appeals have fallen on deaf ears so lets petition the KC's and FCI.

Un rêve d'avoir un chien de l'affixe Crying Wolf ?
Mais de qui se moque-t-on à la fin !....

A dream of have an dog comming from Crying Wolf?
But what a joke it is!

Je ne vois pas en quoi c'est un rêve d'avoir acheté 3 chiens, dont on à la preuve incontestable qu'il y a eu des croisements dans les lignées, sans pour autant savoir avec certitude à quel niveau exact de la lignée ... ....

I dont see in what is a dream to have bought 3 dogs which have an incontestable proof that mixages happened by their lines, without being sure about in which level of their lines it happened...

Je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve de devoir stériliser

I dont see how can it be an dream, of have to neuter such dogs

Sibir Crying Wolf (parceque son père est Galiba et que je ne suis pas sûre, que ce soit réellement Galiba)

Sibir Crying Wolf (because his father is Galiba and i'm not sure that it was really Galiba who covered)


Rambo Crying Wolf (parceque son père est ce même Galiba, et que le doute s'est installé dans mon esprit .... Est ce Galiba le Père ?

Rambo Crying Wolf (because his father is this same Galiba, and which doubts has settle in my mind... Is really Galiba the father?)

Thalia Crying Wolf, parceque, c'est avec le mariage avec Sibir que le roux est sorti et que là aussi, je suis incapble de savoir AVEC CERTITUDE ADN, si l'apport de Saarloos, ne pourrait pas venir également du côté de Thalia ....??

Thalia Crying Wolf, because was on its mating with Sibir that the forest-brown dogs appeared, and im incapable of being sure if in its DNA had the introduction of Saarloos, can it comes also by the side of Thalia?

De même, tous les chiens de mon cheptel qui sont des descendants directs de ces 3 chiens, que je n'ose plus utiliser, tellement j'ai la hantise de ressortir du roux ....

In the same way, I dont dare to use any of all my dogs who are direct descendants of these 3 dogs, such is my fear of have forest-brown dogs.

Cerise sur le gateau, je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve que ces mêmes chiens soient également DM/DM

I dont see how could it be an dream, as these same dogs are also DM/DM

Un rêve dites vous ?
Pour moi c'est tout simplement un CAUCHEMARD !

You said it's a dream, isn't it?
For me it's simply an nightmare!


Un petit message à l'attention de la propriétaire de Galiba :
An quickly message to the owner of Galiba:

Vous êtes vétérinaire parait il ???? un test ADN de votre chien est donc encore plus aisé à pratiquer pour vous que n'importe quel particulier ....
Je ne comprends pas votre obstination à continuer d'accepter de fermer les yeux et de refuser de faire ce test !
Comme je l'ai déjà proposé à l'éleveuse de votre chien, je suis prête à prendre en charge financière les frais de ce test !

Seems you're an veterinary, isn't it? An DNA test of your dog is even more easy to do than any other owner.
I cant understand your determination of keep with your eyes closed and refusing to do such test!
As I've already offered to the breeder of your dog, im willing to pay the costs for you do this test!

Que disent vos yeux le matin quand vous vous brossez les dents devant votre miroir ???
Votre silence complice n'est pas digne du métier que vous avez choisi d'exercer !

What say your conscience at morning when you brush your teeth in the front of a mirror?
Your silence is unworthy of the profession you have chosen to exercise!

SHAME ON YOU !

Mais je l'ai fait déjà depuis longtemps ! J'ai clairement expliqué la situation, dans la rubrique consanguinité de mon Site hébergé chez "Chiens de France " c'est d'ailleurs directement sur mon Site que M. Ribouet est venu prendre une photo, sans mon autorisation, pour la mettre sur le Forum de WD !

But I've already done it long ago! I've clearly explained the situation under the title "Consanguinité" at my webpage hosted by "Chiens de France". It was also direct from my Webpage that M. Riboulet had took the photo -without my authorization- to add at wolfdog.org forum!

Plus exactement je n'aime pas les mensonges continuels que WD diffusent contre moi, sur des portées prétendument toutes MIX, quand ils ne savent pas ...ils notent MIX et point barre !
A sa façon de faire, WD est aussi menteur que l'élevage Crying Wolf !

Precisely, I do not like the lies that WD keep spreading against me, about the litters be all supposed mixes when they dont know, they put "MIX" and point bar(?) !
In this way Wd is also a liar about the breeding Crying Wolf!

No, no.... It was written somewhere here - these are the words of the owner of Uncas who told that the French breeder came and covered his CsW female with Unkas.
He is very proud that puppies of Unkas (here it was about C'Pouchka and C'Kinay) win so much at shows..... :rock_3

What can be more done in an OFFICIAL DNA test which will show the truth. But so far there are no news from France IF and WHEN it will be done.
Something must be done it such case because such behavior is breaking of the FCI rules which all countries must follow...

Sorry, but I can't find it on your webpage, my French is as bad as your English :) Could you provide a link, please?

Just to be on the safe side, I'd like to ask you formally: do you agree that forum members, who decide to back your case up and write petitions to kynological institutons, could use the link to your webpage with the relevant article in their letters and e-mails? Can you guarantee the article will not disappear in the near future, lets say, 6 months?

Neither I, nor anybody else wants to do anything against your will or put you in a situation you would not like to be. Writing takes time, so it'd be a shame if people's enthusiasm was later criticized and energy wasted.

So please, give us a plain and clear answer to the above question, so that we know where we stand.

Thanks Margo, so if now a dog is tag as a Mix, it's because there is real proof about it...
I really hope everything will find an end soon :s

Sorry, I have probably forgotten something... :( Why are we always speaking about Galiba despite the fact that Mona z Krotkovského dvora CS is the common ancestor between Thalia and Sibir :confused:

Not only Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora, but also Fallko Kollarov dvor. The problem is that when those two dogs were born, there were no (= 0) saarloos wolfdogs in Slovakia. Those two cannot be mixes of SW therefore (and also other reasons, but I wrote about them in different forum).

I'm am a bit confused as to which dogs would be helpful to resolve this problem.

There are a lot of names mentioned on the threads, such as Galiba but then some others saying it is not only Galiba but perhaps some litters.

Can someone make a list of the dogs or litters that could be used to end this mystery?

Great idea :) Then people who share their lives with the offspring of these dogs can maybe get together and form DNA databanks to prove or disprove the suspicions. It is not good having these suspicions around and to not even be sure if your dog is affected or not. Closure of some form is needed - and soon!

As far as I understand (but I can still not get it right :D), some dogs, who are officially children of Galiba, might be in fact children of the red saarlos.

and at polish forum it was written that red saarlos-alike pups were born by cryings from "r", "s" and "t" litters :o

OK, so does that mean that these litters' DNA would be helpful or not?

There was some information posted that said that there was no way to test for paternity from say 2 half siblings that are said to share the same father, one would need the father's DNA as well.

What I am asking is, which dogs can be TESTED by DNA and be useful to solve this puzzle, not just those which are said to be affected litters?

We need the blood of Dvorak, the red Saarloos and possible father of these litters, to compare in paternity test with its possible sons (dogs which had red or "saarloos looking like" pups).

Of course praying that there was only Dvorak at Edith kennel, and no other Saarloos.

So if the blood of Dvorak is never gotten, this mystery will not be solved by DNA?

I still think that comparison between supposed siblings & half-siblings can be done.
I know cases in Finland where such has been made with results that leave no questions if the dogs are truly siblings or not. Allthough these cases I know have not been wolfdogs but other breeds.

i heard about such cases too.

I also think that it is possibly to find out if dog are related as halfbrother/sister but only by a qualified geneticus, and I think you need to have more siblings that just 2.
Because there is an possibility that 2 siblings from the same litter share no genes with each other , ofcourse they have half of their dna form the father and the other half from the mother.

there is an other thing which makes the comparison difficult and that is that te csw is inbreeded this means that probably my dogs shares genes with not close unrelated dogs also... that makes the comparison difficult.

I get the impression that none of the involved breeders wants to get an answer to this matter, maybe more that one breeder made a mistake? or maybe this red was in the breed already for a long period? all of this can only be solved by comparing a lot of DNA samples..... the question is... who is going to pay for it? and who wants to do the comparison?
And what if the result is not what you wanted?

some people can help including me for example. i think all people really interested in the breed want to do it.

Split between all the people who want to be involved, the cost will be relatively small. What price do you put on peace of mind, on the ability to move forwards and not be worrying about the long lasting effects of this 'mistake'?

A final, official result is all that true guardians of the breed want - whatever that result is. :)

What about using the B-Locus test on some dogs ? http://www.genomia.cz/en/test/locus-b-dog/

...or on many CSV.
e.g., Daniela can you perform this test for low extra cost while checking for DM if the owner ask for it ?

Related question, I read the CSV is told to be BB, the arguments were:

1. No red CSV born (known...)
2. GSD used are not b carrier

About point 2., what is the range of certainty of this affirmation ?

On the original paper describing the b mutation (2002 Schmutz, S.M., Berryere, T.G., Goldfinch, A.D. : TYRP1 and MC1R genotypes and their effects on coat color in dogs Mammalian Genome 13:380-387, 2002. Pubmed reference: 12140685), there is an interesting part where a dog (Grackle), carrier of b, had her closest brown ancestor is six generations back.
Have we enough information on the GSD used in the breed foundation to go against such exemple ?

"Historical perspective on the brown mutations. The German
Longhair and Large Munsterlander were considered a single
breed until 1909, at which time the breed divided, based on
brown versus black coat color. The breeders were disconcerted
that the brown German Longhair bred true for coat color, but
the black dogs occasionally had brown pups. It is not sur-
prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in black
dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back. The Large Munsterlander, Cora, carries one
copy of the premature stop codon in TYRP1, and she has had
brown pups in the past.
Since more than a single DNA sequence variant associated
with brown was found in some breeds (Labrador Retriever,
Large Munsterlander, Brittany Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Aus-
tralian Shepherd, German Shorthaired Pointer, Vizsla, Pu-
delpointer, Gri€on, German Wirehaired Pointer), these
mutations likely arose prior to the time of breed registry ori-
gins in the late 1800s. Furthermore, these three mutations
occur in longhaired, shorthaired, and wirehaired breeds, a
®nding which further predates these breed origins to the 1600,
or 1700s (Schmutz 1992)."

"German longhair" is shepherd or pointer? German longhair pointer have bb gene for sure. As I understand this is artickel about pointer (gsd longhair was not consider as a single breed until 1909)

Surely those who care about the race will be willing to do so, the problem remains for those who only see us on the farm interests and personal gain, they will never be willing to collaborate?
I think not ..
One step could be to store the DNA of each animal in the herd, but not by making the collection privately, but by the competent authorities, who go on the farm and take samples and then deposit them ...
But it would never be possible?
I talk about breeding just because you come from where most of the puppies.
Should become a necessary and obligatory rule.
Unfortunately only a beautiful dream.

that was confusing me... i thought the article was about pointers :?

I was informed that for sure there was not even one "red nose" CsW born.

There are also no information about any red GsD used for making our breed - and we must remember that for CsW the founders used pure well documentated Shepherds.

So for about 40 years there were no red dogs born. Good enough to say that 'b' do not appear by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. So for Sibir and Thalia the DNA test of the coat colour can give already a good proof that they are not purebreed.

:)
Shadow
:)
Is not for a person here, but for all,
not want, fact!
Those who mix-breed or don't help just because of their pride or ego, they abolish not only the CLC and help the frauds, but also all pedigrees including all data!

In addition they're devastating the future of real CLC including health control etc....

All those who choose their ego over their dogs and therefore support those frauds and intrigues, they've lost authenticity and credibility - the DOGS are the central point

I do not understand why it seems impossible to bring up facts to get things straight - it just one little step bringing people to be honest - is it really too much regarding your dogs, our breed CLC?

It's all about making money - so it seems to me - and I'm sorry but I can not and do not believe other explanations anymore ... such a pity ...

Many people want to help, make a small step officially DNA - a big step for all CLC,
if they really love this CLC with your own history and personality!

thanks ALL!;-)

best Regards Mariana

If the dog's ID marking is changed to the DNA test does not help the case at all.

only with officials Representations - DNA Test, - YES - otherwise worthless - for all Dog!

More cases of red "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs" (Saarloos mixes) in Hungary...
 

A very "interesting" puppy from Hungary. Seems to be another case of a "red" Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (read: Saarloos x CzW mix).

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f7&oe=57377EA6

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...22&oe=57073129

It seems the problem with red "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" (read: Saarloos mixes) from Hungary is bigger than anybody thought... One more advertisement with "red nose" puppies....
http://olx.hu/hirdetes/cseh-farkas-k...tml#275ff0e6d6

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...16540607_o.jpg

At a younger age
https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hp...01&oe=556FF71C


You can read more about the Hungarian Saarlos mixes here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510

it isn't only that there are apparent mixes born... which unfortunately happens all the time, whether by accident or what.. but at least in the case of the 2nd post, the puppies are purportedly recognized and FCI papered as purebred CzW.. the sire is even advertised as Junior CzW Champion of Hungary.

while the parents as pictured in the link appear like normal CzW, dilute coloration of the puppies' liver noses assumes that both parents are carriers of dilution loci not existing in purebred CzW... strongly suggesting the parents themselves are multi-generation mixes who had gone undetected ..