Silvester, I would agree with you, if I was not involved in a study of a series of mutations that cause sudden cardiac death and that do occur spontaneously sometimes. Not often, but loss-of-function mutations do occur and if we cannot prove otherwise, we should keep it in mind. But I agree that looking into the crossing with SW is important, but very very hard to prove (and saying dog is not typical is not proof enough I am afraid, not at courts of law).

1) This Puppy is red, (and beautifull).
2) DNA proof show us that he is coming by Sibir x Thalia
3) Sibir and Thalia are not MIX and pure CSW, from a great CSW breeder

==> So we have now a new colour line... You just have to change the CSW Standard ...

Why looking for complicated issues?

Are you joking? :lol:

How did the red color come to be in the Saarloos? Aren't they also crosses of GSD and wolf?

Hmm,we can continue with this thread to new and new levels. I think in French is more of csw mix (with wolves too), I don´t mean kennel of Lorry, I am sure these mix will be on World show in French too.....What will be if these dogs with csw pedigree will winn? Breeders will mate with them, we will have mixes in much of next pups.......
Will we do DNA tests of all breeding wolfdogs in all world? When we will beggin with tests? (because now is late, we have mixes with csw pedigree)........
This is big problem and I think we can do nothing agains it.....

I press my fingers for Lorry, to found out why she has brown pigmented puppies. And I hope for calm and reasonable solution of everything.

Think about the CSW. Any speculations without proofs about many mixes harm the reputation of the breed.

I would like to believe in mutation, it would be great.
But as I wrote before, I think the mutation would be here much sooner.
But please, remember, even if there is SAV or anything else, we all know what craziness our dear pets are able to do because of the mating.

Let's calm down at this level, until we get some new proofs from Lorry. We talked a lot about genetics and many important and helping things were said.
Now, the next step should be done elsewhere and I hope, for the sake of my beloved breed, that this discussion will wait for proofs.

If it can get things done quickly, I am ready to scan licenses genetic Sibir, Thalia, and Rambo (do not forget that Rambo has the same father as Sibir)

- Maybe, Daniela will determine if there Saarloos in these 3 dogs ?
- Maybe, she can determine that Rambo is the brother of Sibir
(if not her brother, we can already get a more real things)

What amazes me still, in a subject if burning is that neither the owner Galiba nor the breeder of Sibir and Thalia, do not take the trouble to explain what might be happening ?

The hyposthèse a projection with an accidental Saarloos, is not a shame ..... Why not come and talk openly .... I know ..... this is the minimum ......

Because among all the MIX which already been accused (by inventing outright lines) and true MIX looming on the horizon, we will of course add me, I'll have you know my breeding becomes the shame of France's !....

Lorry, it is not your mistake. I wish more breeders like you are...........We are ready to help you with all what is possible.

I would really like to see a reaction from Edit and the owner of Galiba. Things happen and not always are the fault of the breeder, but in that case the breeder should be open about it and help solve the problem.

Lorry, you have my full support and I think I speak for more of us when I say that we are grateful that you spoke about the trouble (and I am sorry that you had this problem in the first place).
Shame is not making mistake, shame is when somebody lies about it (even if somebody lies about somebody else's mistake). I hope you will get a good solution for this problem.

No. In the fact they are mixes of different breeds and accoridng to different sources also nordic breeds (husky or malamute) are involed. They are "Wolfdogs" only on the paper.

Yes... But sometimes, stupid ideas can reveal a better way, the only hope is to find a way to resolve this problem.

French breeders ar not in quiet position. It is not easy for them to find a way, because their job is to sell us Puppies. They are inside the problem.

So us, simple owners as me, we are just the end of the chain, outside. So we ask you, in this universal forum, to do something. To help our clean Breeders as Nadia and Lorry, to get out them this witch hunt.

I fully agree with you: being just a "simple" owner helps keep the right perspective to dog issues ;)

My French is not good enough to follow the discussion on the French forum, but I don't see any witch-hunt here. On the contrary, people are trying to brainstorm possible reasons of this 'anomaly' and are grateful to Lorry for bringing out into light a problem that can eventually save the breed!

There is a saying: 'If someone doesn't know how to behave, he should behave decently'. IMHO it's very relevant here!

a thing of sure Lorry, we are not friendly, but you do certainly not be the shame of the French breedings, you speak about this problem whereas much would have hidden that…. now if you can to us poster various photographs of these dogs which you had, that would be very interesting. like seeing their evolution…

:lol: good joke Jet :lol:

As far as my understanding Saarloos also have as Margo says Nordic breeds in foundation. I think the earliest 'original' project was GSD x wolves but later additional breedings involved wolves outside of Europe as well as Nordic mixes. If so, I could easily see how a red Saarloos would be of similar coloration to red huskies.

so saarloos were similar to Tamaskans?

No... because Saarloos are still admittedly wolfdogs.... :lol:;-)

Some Saarloos have white masks like Nordic sled dog breeds. This is hard to believe to have come from GSD, and even harder to believe to originate from wolf...
So there are some coat color patterns in Saarloos, that question the officially stated origin of the breed (=GSD & European Wolf)

BUT, the brown (bb) coat color does exist in GSD (see my previous post), so it is possible that this color came into Saarloos from GSD's.

I have tried to find out more information about the brown color in Saarloos;
-when and where did it first occur?
-were any of the early stud dogs (GSD's) known carriers of the trait (brown themselves, or had brown in their lineage)?
--> I assume that it could be possible to trace back the early stud GSD lines to see if there were known brown individuals or not. :confused2
And if the brown gene (bb) where there from the beginning, it would most likely have been seen allready in the early Saarloos. If it showed up later in the game, then I think it is a sign of more recent heritage.

I'm sorry if this starts to go a little off topic...
I've once started a topic about this on the Saarloos section. I didn't get much answers there...
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16187

:fingers1 :lol:

Hi,

Personally I prefer the scientific point of view on this matter than the “Mixes possibility”...
I have some difficulties to understand why some big breeders, supposedly like Crying Wolf, “would do” mixes between Saarloos and CsV... and after that be oblige to cheat on their dogs pedigree... :roll:
I can understand (but don’t agree) why some “neo breeder” will be tempted to try this kind of thing... But one more time, why cheating after that?...
Best regards,
And my sympathy to you Lorry :)