but french club thake a pedigree for this dogs- in this case they have a POWER make documents and register dogs, when this pedigree blank have this suspicious dogs. Why you say they not have a power. FCI regulamin say - "mas breed pure dogs" " FCI are organization in who are others countrys club. CBEI are in FCI? yes - in this case he mas make who say FCI- breed pure CSV. are this breeder in CBEI- yes. in this case all regulamin valid who say FCI.
first who mas work in this case and are CBEI, when his make a pedigree for this dog.
CBEI make "pure dogs" pedigree for this animals and CBEI can canceled this documents.

Hum... Martial, can you explain to Wolfin, and others, how it is working in France? I m sure Wolfin is wrong (only because you don't eat camembert every day like me *joking*) but I will not be able to explain it... :(

ok question - who make pedigree for puppy in FR? one simply question
say all documents making procedure when mate two dogs
1. are...
2. are...

p.s. who is first club in FR?

Yes, please explain. The FCI page says:

"The Fédération Cynologique Internationale is the World Canine Organisation. It includes 86 members and contract partners (one member per country) that each issue their own pedigrees and train their own judges."

So if something is different in France, it would be good to understand.

ok I make smal mistake - if I good understand
CBEI are this same like CSV ( or CSV and others special breeds) club in LT or CZ or SK or ...
this club are in main club in FR - yes this same like we have too ( in ours LKD are 49 clubs (http://www.kinologija.lt/?page_id=1003&lan=eng))
BUT breed club can make all if WANT - make documents about suspicious animal and send this to main club and club work.
I think not in this are problem not in "CBEI not can" but "CBEI... ( say self who worts mas be)

The SCC delivers our pedigree here, on the other hand to retain nevertheless that the club of race touches a part during each payment for the certificates of births (pedigree before confirmation).

with also knowknowing, the dog wolf is the race who makes live the CBEI (approximately 20 races), it is the race which has the largest livestock and the most birth recorded per year .....

Actions of the CBEI for moment, nothing, absolutely nothing.....
Now, I am agreement to say that we have problems in France with the CSW, I would like, like other people to make go up all that by voice official.
That this is litigious for us in France, that should be included/understood can be perceived like jealousy, competes with….

If we had written evidence, by test DNA, a petition,support of Slovakia, and other club.....

I am persuaded that the things would move. Me I have eyes, I see the problem, but for the authorities official we need concrete element!!!!

yes this same system like in LT - club are for breed but document make main club. but club have more powerful vote than the average person when are a conflict.

YES good ide make a petition

First - it is not for you personally. Just a reaction.
In fact it is really a problem - people who feel that "their soul is similar to wolf", or they are sure that wolves are "so loyal and loving", or they simply feel so "natural" and the "wolf" would complete this image. Fu. I want to vomit when I hear such talks. It is - first of all - a working breed, designed to - let's be open - attack people. It will never be a wolf, if somebody wants one, let him buy a laika - this will be a nice, rustic dog, you may grow long hair, beard, dress like warrior princess Xena and feel how wild you are... Sad thing that all these "wolf lovers" have no wild wolves in their countries, had only seen wolf in zoo or TV, have no idea what influence this wolf blood makes REALLY for a breed. Usually I guess they even do not go to "wild" nature at all - they are citizens, used to runing hot water, traveling by cars, weather conditioners and so on, they need COMFORT, so CsV is NOT a comfortable dog AT ALL (that is why I love them). And these people want "a wolf" to make some image. Feeeee.

Other thing is - I really openly hate people who do not respect the work of the generations before, in this case - breeding work. Somebody maybe risked their lives to save these dogs from utilization, worked, tried to do their best to create these amazing creatures, that most of us here love and enjoy every minute spent together. And now some idiots, having shit instead of their brains, destroy the hard work of other people by making mixes!!! And - sorry - the people who buy "purebred" dogs with no pedigrees or people, who buy "CsV" with "more wolf" - ar also... hm, I'll try to be polite... not so good and clever people :lol:

Rrrrrrrrrrr.

:klatsch Very good statement from my point of view.

Originally Posted by Vaiva http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/images/...s/viewpost.gif
"First - it is not for you personally. Just a reaction.
In fact it is really a problem - people who feel that "their soul is similar to wolf", or they are sure that wolves are "so loyal and loving", or they simply feel so "natural" and the "wolf" would complete this image. Fu. I want to vomit when I hear such talks. It is - first of all - a working breed, designed to - let's be open - attack people. It will never be a wolf, if somebody wants one, let him buy a laika - this will be a nice, rustic dog, you may grow long hair, beard, dress like warrior princess Xena and feel how wild you are... Sad thing that all these "wolf lovers" have no wild wolves in their countries, had only seen wolf in zoo or TV, have no idea what influence this wolf blood makes REALLY for a breed.
( This is very true !)
Usually I guess they even do not go to "wild" nature at all - they are citizens, used to runing hot water, traveling by cars, weather conditioners and so on, they need COMFORT, so CsV is NOT a comfortable dog AT ALL (that is why I love them). And these people want "a wolf" to make some image. Feeeee.

Other thing is - I really openly hate people who do not respect the work of the generations before, in this case - breeding work. Somebody maybe risked their lives to save these dogs from utilization, worked, tried to do their best to create these amazing creatures, that most of us here love and enjoy every minute spent together. And now some idiots, having shit instead of their brains, destroy the hard work of other people by making mixes!!! And - sorry - the people who buy "purebred" dogs with no pedigrees or people, who buy "CsV" with "more wolf" - ar also... hm, I'll try to be polite... not so good and clever people :lol:

Rrrrrrrrrrr."

That`s the best posting what I saw here for a very long time !!

I agree not absolutely 100 % - but very close to this !

Best regards , Uli alias Silvester

like it :)

Vaiva, I just explained my old dreams, when i was teenager... Please don't vomit upon Children! :)

You know the first dog i loved 10 years old was a simple bastard???

When last year I wanted to turn these old dream to reality, I first met on owner, who is also a WD moderator. He showed me his two CSV... Then during a few weeks, i talked with owners and breeders, and i have finally acted my choice.

Just realise there is thousands CSV's owners who do not explain their quest here, and you will never able to change their dream.

And never forget the dog behind the paper, human people makes the pedigre paper, honest or no, Louve Blanche or Peronowki, anyway at all, there is still a part of nature in every dog.

And you know what. I think this red CSV, from MLS Kennel is really beautifull.

So... To Keep a race on the right way is one purpose, looking for a dog is really another one. Keep your thoughts, you can, as you cannot change that world. If you think I m mad, and as my Pup is descending from Galiba, I ll never give his bolloks still the crying's lines are not clear.

And at last, I ve the only CSV in the world with a broken Ear!!!! Na!!!! :p

I think the red mix is beautiful too..

I think all dogs are in their own way beautiful. And I never saw on here people who have problems with the mutts themselves,.. but, that's a different thing than the art of purebred dogs..

PS. I think your dog's broken ear is very dashing. :)

:) You re right! I agree. May be two road : the simple owner one, and the breeder one. The last problem about this is that owners give cash to breeders... :)

Hoping you will try to help Lorry, every one.

Thank you Vaiva! You're totally right, even if I need to admit that myself the first reason I'm was looking for a CsV was because he looks like a wolf...(I was 15 years old ;)) Now I steal love this part of the CsV but I especially love this breed for what it is really: character, dexterity, intelligence, loyalty... It's the best dog I ever have, and I can't imagine my life without it. I'm not anymore a wolf lover... I'm a CsV lover and I have a lot of respect for the work behind this breed! I'm so angry to see such thing happen with some breeders and I’m angry too against who support them and don't seem to understand the gravity of such thing...
:(

There seems to be lots of CsV (& SWH) breeders (and buyers) who only care about the wolfy looks; -the wolfier the better, they seem to think, and by any means necessary.
Some of them know wolves, and they know what it is like to live with a wolf/very wolfy wolfdog. But most of them have NO idea, they only have romanticized dreams and lots of falce information.

Falcifying pedigrees in a breed like this is especially dangerous. There are so many possible bad effects on it, starting from the fact that nobody nolonger has any control over the hereditary traits, -most importantly the health & character. -If you do not know who you are truly breeding with, you cannot breed. You only make puppies. You don't know what to expect from the offspring, and everyone can start wiping their ass with the pedigree papers.
But when it comes to breeds like the CsV & SWH that unfortunately are allready banned in some countries together with all wolf x dog crosses in general, it is very, very risky to mix them with hybrids (theoretically incorrect term but I use it here just for clarification); if the public & authorities loose their trust to these breeds' pedigrees and breeding purposes, it will cause trouble. In the best scenario it would only lead into compulsory DNA testing before registration, but in worst case it could lead into more banns.
And if this monkey business with falcifyed pedigrees goes on for too long, there is a risk that these genetically allready small breed populations will get too badly polluted to survive anymore.

There is one thing though that I disagree with Vaiva.
First I must note that I am well aware of the origins / histroy of this breed and it's original purpose. But I know wolves and I know dogs, and I know WORKING dogs especially well. And I think nowadays it is (and should be allready) generally admitted that if you want to have better working dogs, you don't mix wolf into the breeding stock. And IF you do, you need very carefull selection and many generations away from the wolf, to get to a point where you have somewhat homogeneous population of potential dogs (and you most certainly will not have high interest in other things such as keeping the wolfy looks). It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example. For better working abilities you mix ideal DOGS with suitable traits, and you reach your goal alot faster and easier, and you may even truly create better working dogs compared to what there allready is.
When viewing from the working perspective, there is nothing so unique in the wolf that we would need to try to get into dogs to improve their working abilities, and/or what we would not be able to get by mix breeding different dogs. It is vice versa: -wolves do not make good workers for human purposes; for every advantageous trait along comes atleast as many unadvantageous ones that have -for a reason- been selected against in the domestication process of dogs. All the desired traits we see in working canines these days are originally wolf behaviour allright, but strongly modified by human breeding selection, and at this point allready far away from wolf.

So who are we kidding here? If the authorities need top working dogs, they don't buy wolfdogs and though they may have done experiments in the past and crossbred wolves to dogs, the fact is that they lost their interest because they failed for the reasons mentioned above. And if top competitiors search for a new dog to compete with (in any dog sports from schutzhund to agility, sledding or hunting), they don't buy wolfdogs because there are other breeds much more suitable for these sports and much more likely to succeed in their task.
So who we have left? -The people who like to attend dog sports but looks for special challenge? Yeah, maybe some wd buyers are this type. How many in reality?
And the rest? -I'd dare to say that more than 90% of the wd buyers look for nothing more than active companion dog, -and yes, honestly said: a dog with exceptionally wolfy looks compared to any other breed.
In such hands a hard core working dog with high drives is a fiasco; a scandal; an accident awaiting to happen.

So, may I ask a few questions:
For who are these dogs truly bred for these days (now that they are nolonger a military experiment)?
Do we need just another German / Belgian Shepherd? -Is it even a realistic goal?
What are the characteristics the average buyers are hoping for their CsV?
If we think about the best intrests of these dogs, wouldn't it be to breed dogs that fill these hopes; that are most suitable for the main target group ~ (= an avarage buyer)?

Please, be not mistaken;
I am definately NOT saying that because of the romanticized dreams of uneducated wolf -lovers who want to have a pet wolf, we should try to modify the CsV into a Golden Retriever in wolf's clothing. :lol: No, no, no!
It is what it is and besides, there is no such thing as a 'wolfdog for the average Joe'. ~Wolfdogs, -whether FCI breeds or hybrids-, are high maintenance canine companions with special needs for their owners. They are active and higly intelligent animals, who should never be taken for purely decorative purposes. They need lots of excercise, socialization and special training, and all that plays a huge role in building a tight bond and good relationship between a wd and it's owner.

But, as it is highly dubious to breed CsV into 'decorative sofa-wolves', is it any more reasonalbe to breed for 'military wolves'?

Hey Jenni - you have topped even Vaiva´s posting with yours !!

Especially these parts are very true and important for my opinion:

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :
"Falcifying pedigrees in a breed like this is especially dangerous. There are so many possible bad effects on it, starting from the fact that nobody nolonger has any control over the hereditary traits, -most importantly the health & character. -If you do not know who you are truly breeding with, you cannot breed. You only make puppies. You don't know what to expect from the offspring, and everyone can start wiping their ass with the pedigree papers."

Exactly ! That´s also the problem with the "breeding" of American wolfdogs - for they are not really breeded but only produced.

Originally posted by Jennin Lauma :
"It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example."

and

"All the desired traits we see in working canines these days are originally wolf behaviour allright, but strongly modified by human breeding selection, and at this point allready far away from wolf."

Yeah - this is what all real experts say too !

Ok, also to the other parts of this posting I agree completely - this time really 100 % indeed... And I could´nt have told it in better words!

So Jenni - If you congratulated me for the show- result of my dog ....

I much more want to congratulate you here for this posting !:klatsch

Best regards , Uli alias Silvester

Sorry, must be language barrier :) Yes, we are all here totally aware, that there are much better breeds for IPO, Mondioring or whatever than a wolfdog. What I ment was - wolfdogs are not decorative breeds, it will not be just a nice "wolf" making your garden look better. It has special needs in training, socialisation, everyday work. Yes, they can be agressive, they can be shy, they also know how to bite. We have to remember, that they were really bred (roughly) to attack people, not to hunt, not to bark, not to entertain, not to pull sleds. This requires special knowledge, work and so on, so it is not really a dog who will be "wolfish" in a way many people dream they would be...

Throw stones to me, but to be sure I am allways a little bit surprised in so many people with various breeds, teaching their dogs really a police/military work. I am a journalist and I live in a crowded area in a city, why the hell would I need a dog who barks and attacks? :shock: I need a universal dog, having good reaction in various unexpected situations, totally brave, nice with children and people, but big and strong enought to make me feel safe late at night, also a dog, who really feels the people, their moods and intends - what a wolfdogs is a master of. Predictable, feeling me well (I mean the dog has also to be able to predict his owner), loyal, no need to dress, wash, comb, no smell - perfect for a small apartment. Doesn't care about the weather - so important when you have summers at +30 degreres, long rainy autumns and winters at -20...

In fact I myself am still in love with the primitives - shikokus, malamuts, huskies, but I chose wolfdog just because they are working breed, in this case more oriented to people, more obedient, easier to train.

The breeding goal should be to keep the wolfdogs the way they are - not turning into GSD, neither shy and scared. As healthy as possible. But this is just my personal amateur position.

Some people here who writes have a back yard full of hybrids and their dogs in the background are not fully known. On the Internet is easy to shout and make very knowledgeable.

Who will buy a dog breeder who speaks next, "" these races are not diseases, "" they are closer to wolves than other breeds, "the educator says that the wolf a dog can be trained," etc.

I'd just add, that expressions "working" and "training" are very misleading. To some people they mean just training the dogs for official exams (IPO), to others - the dog being able to cooperate with the human in all sorts of activities, sometimes quite unconventional, like historical reconstructions, genuine man trailing, assisting in expeditions, guarding a site, etc. etc.

If we take the 1st meaning - I agree there are more suitable breeds, if the other - vlcaks due to their empathy, may be competitive to other breeds. Given the chance to learn how, vlcaks work by cooperating with humans, not necessarily by blindly obeying them.

I guess I am now "officially" one of those weird competitors who likes to try to "work" with my dog. :lol: Obedience and tracking anyways, and now we also are training in some other scent detection work - as a diabetic alert dog. I would hardly consider myself an advanced trainer. A beginner, really!

1. My male Bongo is a certified therapy dog. (Not to be confused with a service dog). His "work" is to visit and be obedient for emotionally disturbed adolescents. Very obedient. He is not social like a Golden Retriever - but he warms up quickly to trust new people, and I can trust him in all situations - parades, running loose with other dogs and animals - more than I could trust many other dogs. We have a good relationship...but mostly he is obedient.

2. Last week, I attended my first AKC obedience competition with my female, Anthea. The competition was indoors, in a huge, loud, metal convention center - thousands of people, hundreds of dogs, bright lights, vendors, ladders. I don't generally like much attention to myself, so I was quite nervous with "stage fright"...but Anthea stayed, for the most part, very focused. She has some female dominance aggression, but she always leaves this behind when she knows we have a task. We took first place last weekend, by a minimum of 17 points - over golden retrievers, labs, terriers...

3. I have a female in Florida that I bred, who at 1.5 years, is being trained as a mobility assistance dog. I know she has had unique challenges with her...but as I understand, she is still doing well.

4. I track and trail (sport) with my dogs. I have had the opportunity now to train with many different breeds...I would trade none for my wolfdogs. Their drive, their endurance, their focus (and ability to refocus) is beautiful to watch. When they are "deep" with their nose in tracking, and they come to a tricky place - they freeze, sometimes with one leg in the air even, and don't move a leg until they know just where they are going. But the trick is to always challenge them - too many short/straight tracks - and they look back like "really? - why? Don't YOU see the sock down there? but c'mon, we will go...in a leisurely fashion." I have trained some protection work with my dogs, but got kind of the same reaction after a bite or two. They got bored with the "game".The real protective instinct has shown itself at more important times, such as strange drunk men approaching me at dark on the beach. 8)

I don't think all CSVs are all cut out for all "work", or even some "work". But to cut them out of being "top dogs" completely, and say it can never be...I don't know if it's right either (though I surely don't want a GSD personality either). I think the biggest thing to own one is to have and open, flexible, FORGIVING!!!! mind - and be willing to work towards greatness at what their strengths are. Mixed breeding, especially with a AWD or Saarloos, or any other mix....surely only adds more variability - and thus unpredictability for untold generations.

But what does this matter if some people own "hybrids" / AWD? If people have "mixes/mutts", so let them! And what does it matter how well they know the background / pedigree of their "mutts"? -Only parents? To 2nd gen? To 3rd? To 6th? What difference does it make for a pet "mutt"?

What is critizised here is falcifying pedigrees of FCI registered breeds. Not every AWD owner automatically make their secret coctails and falcify pedigrees, so I don't see what does this have to do with the subject discussed here. :ehmmm

Shouting? Hmmm.. I didn't notice anyone -SHOUTING!!!!- here. :misstrauen
Isn't the whole idea of discussion forums to discuss; i.e. to share opinions, information, ideas, etc...? I thought so and actually I think that considering how very flammable subject this is we are discussing here, the conversation has been relatively calm. Everyone here are sharing their opinions and everyone has the right to do so, whether they are breeders, owners or just bystanders/fanciers of the breed who feel they have some thoughts to share.

And i´m talking about you? :popcorn:

?
Whoever you talk about, I'm interested to know:
So it would be nice if you could clarify your point in what you wrote before.
I didn't quite catch it. :dontknow

GalomyOak, concratulations for the results you have gained with your CsV. :klatsch I think tracking is a great job for wolfdogs.
Never say never. ;) There will always be exceptional individuals in both dogs and their trainers.
But let's talk about the average CsV and the average buyers/owners.
-Do we need another GSD? Do we WANT another GSD? What kind of people buy CsV and for what purpose? What are their expectations for the breed? To what kind of activities they are planning to head with their CsV?
What are concidered to be the biggest issues/problems in the CsV character, and how to overcome them?

I can sign after every word of yours :)

Marcy - if you love exams and so on with your dogs - this is great!!! We all can find our own ways to enjoy a CSV. If training is your way so you are having your best from your relationship with a wolfdog :)

I don't really consider myself - or my dogs, other than they are MY dogs, my babies :p - exceptional. We are average. I had no dogs growing up, and only 2 - a mixed breed and a GSD - to base my "dog experience" on. I knew there would be a huge learning curve when I bought my first CSV (something I emphasize to potential new owners). I don't train every minute of every day. I am a teacher, and live on a small farm - we train when we have time. I am not so rich to afford top trainers or to to dog shows and trials every weekend. We go through local dog classes, and the rest is...a hobby, for free time.:)

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are. I imagine it becomes more difficult to find good homes for 4-5+ litters a year. Maybe it's not the breed itself, but how the breed is "grown" instead, that creates issues? No, my dogs are NOT GSDs, I work with those too (DDR lines, with common GSD ancestors to my CSVs)...THEY make me crazy. Hmmm..I think we have moved to a different topic.:)

:fingers1 good thoughts

On the site where I publish my CSV photos, I get lots of people asking about how it is with CSVs in the US, interested in acquiring one. So I usually point them to you and your website, apart from wolfdog.org. I suspect some of these people fall into the 'mystical wolf' cathegory, but not all of them. I hope you don't mind;]

Just one question, maybe I haven't read it here: Do the red CSV-puppies in France get FCI-pedigrees? Therefor they are not according to the standard...

The breed standard is something unknown by the huge majority of the CzW breeders, then how will an group-judge or an all-rounder judge be able to know how should look like a CzW when nor even the breeders knows it?
We can often meet atypical dogs winning titles at dogshows, I will not get amazed if a red dog win as well.

@Vaiva and Jennin Lauma: Just agree with your statements about breeding! Just brought on the point of view!

You are right, many jugdes don't know really the wolfdogs. It is the same by the Saarlooswolfdogs.:roll:
But if the breeder will get the pedigrees at his club or the SCC and the colour isn't right, is it not the club or SCC, who denied the pedigrees?
In Germany you have to declare the colour of the puppies and if the colours wouldn't be right, I am sure that the VDH wouldn't give the pedigrees.

Haha, oh year ... or better, oh no! That would be a scandal!:twisted:

Puppies being untypical is not a reason to not give pedigrees - if the color is totaly impossible in the breed than the kennel club can ask parentage tests, or can write directly in the paper that the puppy is not standard and cannot be used for breeding, but that's all.

Pour répondre à cette question :
J'aurai pu en effet inscrire les chiots, à la S.C.C., au titre de la descendance, puisque les tests ANTAGENE de filiation prouvent, sans l'ombre d'un doute, que les chiots sont bien issus de Sibir et Thalia Crying wolf....
Je pouvais donc demander les certificats de naissance officiels, en précisant "simplement" la couleur rousse sur les documents...

Dans les cas de litige, la Société Centrale Canine prend en compte la réalité de la filiation (via des tests génétiques) et non la couleur de la robe d'un chiot (qui peut évoluer dans le temps)....

Après mûre réflexion, j'ai choisi de ne pas demander les certificats de naissance pour ces chiots.....

Ils ne sont donc pas inscrits au Livre des Origines Français (LOF) en tant que chien-loup tchecoslovaque.
De même, sur leur carte d'identification, il est bien précisé la mention "Type" chien loup tchécoslovaque + la couleur Rousse

Ils ne seront JAMAIS inscrits au LOF (même à titre initial) et n'auront jamais de descendants, puisque rendus inaptes à la reproduction ....

Mais je le répète, rien ne pouvait m'interdire d'inscrire ces chiots au titre de la descendance, si je l'avais voulu, puisque les parents sont bien déclarés, eux, comme étant des chiens-loup tchécoslovaques de pure race et la filiation reconnue en tant que telle.....

Cf. Réponse détaillée faite à Sashia ...

May be Lorry wrote in french because she is tired to have to justify her acts...
May be, she wanted ton write in FRench to be sure that all her words are the good one

She is one of the best french breeder, by telling, acting, to the pure CSV breed, and almost with health purpose.

And you kow... I don't know that girl (Woman? :p) I never met her, I never wrote her... I have no interrest with her... It s only the truth.

And as i write friendly things about people, i just wanted to tell another thing, out of this subject : Yukidomari just helped me to see my dog's pictures were stolen by a US people.

So.... Keep in your mind : universal forums are good to exchange, share, and be friends all round the countries!!!! :)
It is sometime the most important, better than a dog's color.... :)

What do you say to this pup? It is wild german wolf pup from the Milkeler Pack born this year in Eastern Germany the Lausitz - not far from Margo and Przemek, lol. All red in coat!Do you think this is a pure wolf pup? http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/...11336Christian

It says (I think, it's in German ;), which is a little rusty for me!) that I need a password...

So, I've seen this dog pop up quite a bit when I've looked at pedigrees:

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1331

Am I crazy, or wouldn't you consider that red? Or is it just because it's an old photo?

he not red like are red sarlos - this is big differences.

surely it is.

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/10...96-6520755.jpg

red?

real:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/10...75-1382601.jpg

and here we can see agouti red which is impossible in our breed (but possible in saarlos wh)

Thanks for the clarification. :) I figured there had to be something to it that I was missing! It's really hard when all you have to go on are photos.

Vicky, Tambury was quite dark, you are right, but that was red with a lot of black in it too. The saarloos red is without black and the nose is red/liver which is the best showing that something is very wrong.

Sorry, here the pic from the german wolf pup - in red ...

Vicky & Christian;

The animals you referred to are not genetically the same kind of "red" as the Saarloos. The animals in the pics you linked have pheomelanin red, and Christian, the puppy could be described as more "pheomelanistic" than average European wolves, -just like the Finnish/Russian "yellow" wolves I showed you.

The Saarloos "red" is not pheomelanin at all, but eumelanin (normally black) switched to brown. It is genetically exactly the same as the brown labrador, but in Saarloos it is just combined with the agouti coloring.
When the dog has this genotype bb for brown eumelanin, then ALL the black pigment in the animal turns brown. -Not just the hair, but skin too!

And you can clearly see that the animals in your pictures have BLACK nose & lips etc. They cannot be genetically bb (brown) like the forrest brown Saarloos and the dog born into Lorry's litter.

I recommend you go back in this topic and find my previous posts where I allready explained this. And I might even have shared some photos of the "pheomelanistic" FinnoRussian wolves.

(Edit) I helped you out and looked it up for you. Here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=34

Any news about mixes by Crying Wolf?
 

Do you have any news about solving of the problem of the possible Saarloos mixes by Crying Wolf?

I received several litter advertising where breeders use the suspected lines (similar to the "red" lines from France - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510). What is strange form me that on the list are also breeders from the origin countries....

Anyway we have our doubts if we should advertise the litters here on Wolfdog.org till the story will be finally solved.
Nobody of us want to be responsible for the situation where puppy buyers will get a mixed breed puppy with the "help" of Wolfdog.org.

Are there any news on this topic? Any DNA tests?

What about a special tag 'under investigation' or so? i agree it's a tricky situation! i'm disappointed to learn from reading other language forums that the origin kennel Crying Wolf is not cooperating with DNA requests. :|

Like Yukidomari, I am upset that they are not carrying out DNA tests - simple, inexpensive and would put everyone at ease (or let everyone know what is going on - perhaps this is the problem?) Until they carry out these simple tests, there is a big question mark hanging over the breed as a lot of dogs are now derived from these suspect litters.

It would be so nice to have a conclusion so that everyone can move forwards in confidence.

its very 'suspect' ...i cannot understand why they do not want to clear their kennel name.....i know i would! odd :?

It is what we a planning to do. At the moment there are some "suspected" litters on the list (for example Galiba offsprings).

I was hoping that the problem is solved or any steps have breed taken to clarify it.

We were thinking about it - but it can cause much bigger protests of the breeders using "suspected" dogs than removing the litters.

I see, you write about my pups. What is "suspected" on Galiba?

I was not writing about your puppies. Anyway not only....

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...02345&langid=1

There are more breeders writing - also here on forum - that the Galiba offsprings look more like Saarloos-alike (for example: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9708). And the French case of the red Wolfdogs seems to be a proof for it.

And the fear of the Crying Wolf breeder of making the DNA tests shows that there is really something wrong going on there.

I know all this thread, I read it .....
But what is "suspeced" on him?

with a BLACK nose - not brown or lever! That is the difference as "Jennin Lauma" wrote! It is simply genetic, but some breeders seem not to know about this...

The untypical red colours (but also atypical masks) which appear by his puppies can be advice that he he is not purebreed CsW. The DNA test of the red Wolfdogs were done in France so it is proven that the red puppies are sired by son of Galiba. Additoonally we all sa the photos of the red Saarloos living by Crying Wolf.
So the next step is the suggestion that the problem comes from Galiba and Crying Wolf kennel.

Because the breeder reject the possibility to make the DNA tests by Galiba and other "suspected" dogs by this kennel all we can do is to take "under investigation" all dogs coming from Crying wolf and related to the "suspected" dogs.

Till the case will be cleared and the DNA tests will be done...

So does that include all dogs coming from the litter mates of Galiba too?

If everybody just speaks, but nobody does anything against it, nothing will change.

I've just had a quick look on the database and, by my reckoning, Galiba has sired about 17 dogs who have then produced around 200 and then another over 100 in the next generation. This is serious if you are talking of 'blocking' any dog with Galiba's blood, with no concrete proof of a problem.

yes, and it'd be nice if galiba's owner would simply give DNA and clear it up! it is they who are really holding all other potentially affected dogs and breeders 'hostage'.. :?

I know it is Yukidomari, but nobody seems able to do anything about the fact. Also, say she does eventually test and is found to have crossed - what does that mean for all the people who have bought, and in some cases bred from, these dogs in good faith believing them to be pure? It is a nightmare :cry:

it is :(

unfortunately in my opinion if these dogs are proven to be mixes there is no other choice but to petition for the revocation of pedigrees for these dogs and any progeny of these dogs, or at the least, for WD to label them as such if the FCI or national KCs can't be persuaded..

Not doing so makes a mockery of the pedigree system at its very foundation, which is keeping accurate purebreed pedigrees with only outcrossing granted when approved by a committee in charge, not by random individuals who are able to hide their misdeeds for however long.

terrible for all involved, regardless. :(

It is a SERIOUS problem. The red Wolfdogs were born two years ago. Nothing was made official - two years were LOST because the French breeder decided to clear it directly with Crying Wolf; because of it it was hidden. It is not a accusation towards the French breeder but a simple conclusion. Nothing was reached since the Hungarian breeder do not want to cooperate. And in that time the Galiba offsprings spread among the Wolfdogs.

So nobody stoped it when there were 17 offsprings. But it is better to stop it when there are 200 offsprings than to stop it later when there will be 400 CsW with Saarloos blood spread all over the world.

And IF Galiba or any other dogs in his line are Saarloos-mixes the whole line will get remark "Mixes" even if there will be 1000 of them. I think exactly the Galiba offspring owners should help to solve the problem. Before is too late and more dogs will be "affected"... I'm worried because the will to clear it seems to be missing not only by Crying Wolf breeder but also by the puppy owners. What make me personally even more "suspicious"....

Yes, you are right. But there is a proove: red Wolfdogs born in France where two parents come from Crying Wolf. RED - with red nose. This colour DO NOT EXIST by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. AND both parents must be "carriers".
So there are some other breeds (according the photos it was the red Saarloos) mixed with CsW by Crying Wolf.
The only "problem" is to localize when it happend.

So there are some problems:
Which Crying Wolfs are "under investigation"? When the Saarloos mixed with CsW? When it happend?
It would be not fair to ban all Crying Wolf dogs and their offsprings because some of them can be really purebreed.

Hi, from what generation dogs do you need? those directly born from Galiba, or can it be the generation after, or so?

Short time ago I received interesting message saying that the problem can be not Galiba and his litter mates but his offsprings and other dogs born by CW in that time.

One of the east European breeders wrote me that strange things happened with Galiba. AS reported there were more breeders who covered their females with this dog but ALL the females stayed empty. The ONLY litters (with one exclussion) were born by Crying Wolf. Miracle happend because Galiba was announced as sterile.

Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France). It will be also explanation why the Crying Wolf breeder is so much afraid about the DNA tests. Because it can show that Galiba is not the father of Sibir?

So short: what should be checked on the beginning is - if the father of Sibir is really Galiba.

If not than: if the reall father is the Saarloos.

Of yes - than how many CW dogs are sired by the Saarloos living by CW.

So, does that mean that Galiba is the only suspect one from his litter? His litter mates are not in question? I had the impression that it was the parents of Galiba that had to be checked. Sorry for the confusion :oops:

Surely someone out there can get the owner of Galiba to help sort this out? Maybe even just one of the owners of his 'reported' offspring - if it was my dog, I would be demanding to know...

Galiba has normal colour and normal mask. I know him personally and it is normal czech. wolfdog.
His owner is veterinary doctor, she is normal, clever and not blind. If she will have saarlos mix, she will be first, who will ask breeder.....
In time, when Galiba was born, was first saarloses in Evropa very far from breeders of czech. wolfdogs....
So this what you write here about him is nonsens.

From what I grasped from the above discussion the problem was connected not with the identity of Galiba, but whether Galiba was the true father of his pups. Should his owner deposit DNA material of Galiba in Laboklin for comparison with the DNA of his offspring (like the owner of Juri ZP did a few months ago) she would solve a lot of problems and show goodwill. Being convinced about the dog's true parenthood and, as you say, being
she shouldn't have a problem with this. 8) Giving close to 200 owners and many breeders peace of mind is worth a little sample of Galiba's blood! To many people this would be a matter of honour and responsibility.:|

Hello Rona,
I will write about my two females, because I don´t want to write about not my dogs. I absolutelly have not reason to distrust, Galiba is grandfather of my females.. Cause I reacted to thread of admin, about "not suspected" Galiba in pedigree of my pups.
But you are right.....From Galiba´s owner can be friendly, if she will give DNA. But I am worry it will not be. I asked her about it for Lorry already....And I was not succesfull.

Doesn't such approach worry you at all? It would worry me if I bred on Galiba's descendents... :? A person who does not want to cooperate in such circumstances apparently has something to hide. :(

Breeding (unlike puppy making) is not a "private issue" - it's all about responsibility and respect towards dog owners and other breeders.

But I wrote you, I am sure my females are granddauhters of Galiba.I have not reason to distrust..... I asked owner of Galiba about DNA for my other friends....
I am only one owner of dogs with Galiba in pedigree. I am not his owner, breeder,.... I try to help to my friend, but in real it is not "my work".
I think your question has other adresee. But I see, they don´t react.
Lorry knows, what I did and what I tried to do in this "case".....
But no result.....

I appreciate your attempts and attitude very much.

But my questions was not personal. Doesn't it worry you as member of the Czech Breeding Club that a stud owner in such circumstances may plainly say NO and nothing can be done about it? Even if hunderdes of people were affected and/or the breed put at risk? :? (Well, I'm sure dogs don't mind :p )

We're talking about genetic identity, but what if this was a matter of some serious gentic illness spreading in the breed ??? Shouldn't some changes be introduced to the breeding regulations?

Aaa, Rona, I think, it is question more for Slovak club as guarant of breed....Because we can do nothing in it case by oficial way....
I can´t answer you it....

I agree with you Rona, and thank Hanka for her attempts to clear this issue up.

Something needs to change to make it difficult for people to refuse a simple non-invasive test such as DNA sampling when the identities (and as Rona says, it could be lives in the future, who knows...) of so many dogs are at risk. And for the Czech club, of all clubs, to have no power is very worrying for the future of our beloved breed.

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Why?

Seems Solvaks keep waiting for Godot :lol:

I think this is a matter of each national Kennel/Breed club. On receiving a document granting breeding rights (or at bonitation), the owner should be asked to sign a document stating he is obliged to provide DNA material of the dog if any doubts appear concerning his/her parenthood (+ a list of reliable labs provided). If he refused, he would be banned from the club and his dog would lose breeding rights, so the pups couldn't be registered. This would also mean the dog would not be able to participate in dog shows.

Tough, but I belive necessary in the light of what has been lately happening :(

As I know Galiba is not in the property of Crying Wolf kennel ...
Maybe the owner of Galiba should send some blood samples to solve all mysteries around this subject.

I also met brother of Galiba: Gizmo. And he is normal czw also ...

Admin, let me understand ... also Sibir and Volos are suspected of being saarlos mixes, or only their offsprings? Because if they aren't, maybe is the mother of that litters with saarlos genes... ??? As I saw in the database, they have puppies only in France and some of french breeders are known to bred mixes ... right?

Beatrice, I asked owner of Galiba about help for my friends....:(

i understood that sibir and volos...

Rona, I agree with you. This is a common sense issue and I think all clubs should do so. And you speak here only for doubtfull litters... I understand in Sweden they do it for obtaining the pedigree for pups. We need to move forward ... for the benefit of our breed.

Ok. I understand also that the genetic tests were done on their (Volos and Sibir) offsprings - grandsons of Galiba, not directly on Volos or Sibir, but on their puppies which they sired. So the question was: they produce these puppies by themselves? Wasn't there any females? The red gene is surely from father line or may be from mother line?

as admin said - both parents might be carriers. and they both have galiba in their pedigree. so it would be good to have dna sample of galiba to check is he the father.

Ok. Now you've knocked me down ... :shock: Are you saying that both parents can have Galiba in their pedigrees? Isn't this called inbreeding?
Ok. Now I looked in the database ... and maybe you got my point wrong.
I was saying that for having a litter you need two parents, right? When you said "both parents" I think you are not refering at Volos and Sibir. When I say both parents I say FATHER = Volos or Sibir
MOTHER = one of the females
So my question was: isn't it possible that the red gene to be from the mother's line? I saw there in the database that both Volos and Sibir had puppies with french females. Maybe is in their blood the red gene?
I understand that not Volos and Sibir were tested, but their offsprings with other females. So wouldn't be necessary that females be also tested? How do you know that the red gene is from father's line and is Galiba?

i'm totally lost :lol:
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and

so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"?? if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it 8)

Now it's more clear to me about what you were talking about, but still awaiting an answer from admin ... :)

beatrice, i also wait for admin's answer :lol: you see - it's already easy to be lost in this info... totally :D

Now I'm lost even more ... I have looked in Sibir and Thalia pedigrees and they are half the same ... It's like 50% COI and that's A LOT! Do you know the person who bred them? Because maybe here is the problem ... Are they the real parents of the offsprings or maybe some genetic mutations? I'm not so good with genetics, but 50% is it allowed? I knew something about 20 maximum ... or even less.

By the rules of FCI, endogamy is allowed, sibling + sibling, father + its daughter, or mother + its son. This is called inbreeding. We call it line breeding if the parents' relatives are the same somewhere. We call it outerbreeding if we match two different lined parents. This is allowed by the FCI but every country can decide otherwise.
I can answer to genetics, inheritance or other questions.

There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

Of course not. Also the T-litter is "under investigation". But the only dog from this littter used for breeding is Thalia and Lory wrote already she will not use her or any other her offsprings for breeding. So this part of the line is out of breeding.

First remember the lies of the Hungarian breeder that the Saarloos she owned was sterylized although on the photos is clearly visible he had both testicles. Nebulosa published also a link to Czech web site which is publishing information about his litters. Second there is the fear of the Hungarian breeder to make the DNA tests. So why there are so many lies spread by this breeder if there is nothing to hide? I'm sure that ANY other (honest) breeder would even ask for official DNA tests if there would be such accusations published on any page.

And last but not least - I can see in the database that there are MANY offsprings of the F-Kollarov dvor dogs in Slovakia. Many breeders made already inbreeds. But I asked and not even one dogs is born red. Not even one have the Saarloos characteristics which appear by the offsprings of Crying Wolf dogs.

As it was mentioned - I asked some breeders from Slovakia and they swear the Saarloos was and still is unknown in their country. There is no possibility that any Slovakian litters are Saarloos crosses. And there is no possiblity to have "red" blood in the Slovakian lines and it do not exist by European Wolves, was not present by the GSD used for building our breed and never appeared by CsW. And I believe them as everybody knows that the Slovakian pupulation is much more inbreeded (much more related) than any other population. For 30 years there was not even one red dog born in SK but already 3 by Crying Wolf. Pure X-files....

There's only one breeder in Hungary: Kennel von Neckartal. And here, only pure-blood wolfdogs will born.

I think that this post say it all ;)

Very best regards / Mikael

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).