Maybe my english is very bad, i say: "on self-defence all type of dog have result very similar, not truly result". On Italian test self-defence is not tested...with threaten dog alone at pole when can't judge the self-defence border. On ZTP test when can have a result of self-defence border. We must to look result on Dobermann character problem (self-defence, sensibility) about 1980,1990 dogs, are been resolved by pole test of ZTP. I think we need the same on CZW!

I'm agree with you, but we don't need political issue but around the table, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, German and Polish club, to project a new test, better test for all!!!

ethologically on the reaction of the dog alone there is much to discuss, is not simple like: "dog alone have support by owner" is realy but dog alone have primary instict of self-defence, we can't select the dog about reaction from instinctive primary, and is too dificult know with the dog threaten at the pole, the border of the lack of psychological support by owner, and the emergence of instinct primary!

khmm, Polish not have a club, Lithuania have :)

Sorry Alessio, this is NOT true. Really.
:lol:

is this a big problem?:rock_3

Maybe is allowed by normal law, but ENCI not recognized this, i'm sure! Ask to Gianni!

in France, the threats on a dog prohibited with corrosive should not also be authorized, but the club does what is necessary so that France evolves/moves by taking account of the practices of the creative countries…

considering the number of wolfhound in your country, the club can make this it is necessary so that you can make the bonitations as in the other countries.

or then, is this voluntary on behalf of the club can be ........??? :?

you say "I'm agree with you, but we don't need political issue but around the table, Italian, Czech, Slovak, French, German and Polish club, to project a new test, better test for all!!!"
I corect You :) :p
and please explaine who is with this doberman, but in normal info, yet I and others not understand who is who

Ah, ok!
I read "illegal" so I made a mistake.:lol:

For italian club was more easy to request to ENCI torecognize a test that was already recognized, as CAL, I know well, because we were in the club and we made the request!;)
But if club wants, he can propose (and wait longer for approvation) any specific test.

But I agree with Saschia, italian test IS different, so don't call it "bonitace" and give different code, like the good old "approved" and "not approved".

But with bonitation we don't want to see self-defence, we want to see how the dog evaluates the situation on its own. Self-confident dog with stable character may react in different ways to the attack (whether weak or strong) but should not evaluate contact as attack even if it was attacked previously by the same person... Instinct says to the dog when to run and when to fight if it considers the situation dangerous, but the character says how it will evaluate the situation...

I like weak attack better myself because it better shows the evaluation by the dog - it is easy to evaluate the strong attack as danger allways, but with weak attack lots of self-confident dog evaluate the situation as only potentially dangerous and show the good stability of their character, not attacking prematurely.

BUT, even if attack on a tied dog is not allowed in Italy, I bet they cannot forbid contact of tied dog with owner absent, and that might show a lot about the character, even bringing it close to the Slovak and Czech bonitation. There you can see already how the dog evaluates the situation. Because shy dog will not allow contact, or will shy away from it, while stable dog will either ignore or be positive about it.

I do not understand your mention of politics. As far as I know, the Slovak and Czech bonitations, althogh different, are acknowledged by our breeding commitees. We do not acknowledge the Italian bonitation, for reasons I stated previously, there is no situation where the dog will be evaluating a situation on its own.

Uff!
For the last time : CAL, ZTP, IPO ans so on, ARE allowed in Italy. Leaving a dog alone and attack him is allowed too.

sorry Navarre, I ment not recognized by ENCI and maybe giving problem for recognition

Hi Saschia, mention of politic are not about your post ( with seriuos consideration) but about more other post!
I understand is no possible for you recognized Italian Bonitation for big differences, my dog's have on the same time Czech/Slovak bonitation and Italian bonitation. But i think is better to think a new test for all.
Yes, test with dog at pole without owner, and without threat is recognized, on ZTP test (recognized bt ENCI for Dobermann and Rottweiler) there are a pole test, on my reply (n°53) on this thread i explane this. On this test we can know self-defense border line, and is very important on all breed than have sensible character.
With threat the dog at the pole, i think is so dificult to distinguish how the reaction come from primary istinct (self denfence/drain), or real character of dog...primary istinct are on all dog, on all animal world and are not important for character selection because selection can doing minimun change on this...is a very complex debate, but i think is necessary to talk about this to evolve character test for CZW.

ok this is doberman ZTP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VwsHcCwe1c

very similar to normal bonitation, only dog mas normal bite and make atack with bite. who dogs cann this make yet? and for who this is when in FR or others lands dogs NOT cann training defence

ZTP reguls for Doberman

" List of things needed for starter ZTP

- copy of the pedigree

- letter sent to the DV that you want to participate at the ZTP

- HD-result from Germany or from DV recognized country. if you dont have a HD-result at the time when the ZTP takes
place then you can parttake, but the ZTP will be taken away from you if your dog doesnt get at least HD-2

- dog needs to have at least BH

- the parents need to have a HD-result, no matter if German or not, copies of the results have to be sent to the DV"
http://dobermannreview.net/infolib/i...do_pdf=1&id=14

"Norme di svolgimento dello ZTP (Rules of ZTP recognized by Enci)


Dopo aver consegnato il certificato originale del LOI ed una sua copia al responsabile della prova, il conduttore si presenta con il cane dal giudice; il responsabile controlla i documenti del cane, il tatuaggio ed il risultato della displasia impresso sul pedigree; il giudice si informa con il conduttore sulla crescita, eventuali cambi di proprietà e particolari influssi esterni sul cane presentato. Dopo l'esame morfologico per la qualifica il cane è portato con il guinzaglio, possibilmente lento, in diverse direzioni sul campo di prova. Durante questo cammino deve incontrare alcune persone distribuite sul campo, ferme o in movimento. Di seguito queste persone formano un gruppo. Il formarsi del gruppo non segue uno schema rigido ed il giudice, a sua discrezione, ne dirigerà i movimenti. E' importante che all'interno del gruppo si creino situazioni naturali, come nella vita di tutti i giorni (saluto dandosi la mano, far cadere un oggetto rumoroso, aprire un ombrello ecc.). Tutto ciò senza manifestare alcun tipo di minaccia. In tale fase si devono verificare la sicurezza di sé, la soglia di reazione, il temperamento, la duttilità e la sicurezza sotto stimolo. Quando il gruppo si allontana il conduttore prosegue il percorso; mentre si trova ad una distanza di circa 30m vengono esplosi due colpi a salve (calibro 6mm). I soggetti che al momento dello sparo dimostrano paura non sono idonei. Di seguito il conduttore , su indicazione del giudice , assicura il cane ad un paletto posto in mezzo al campo poi si allontana fino a nascondersi alla sua vista. Il cane rimane solo al paletto e dopo cinque minuti il giudice gli si avvicina, girandogli intorno senza minacciarlo. Gli si ferma davanti, di fianco, lo tocca (se ritiene di poterlo toccare) e fa cadere per terra un quaderno o qualcosa di simile. In seguito, su comando del giudice, il conduttore prende il cane esce dal campo. Durante il test d'isolamento non ha importanza che il cane sia tranquillo e ben disposto, o si dimostri aggressivo; l'importante è che l'aggressività non nasca da paura o da poca sicurezza di sé. Dopo che il soggetto è uscito dal campo il figurante si posiziona dietro un nascondiglio scelto dal giudice in maniera non abituale per i cani che lavorano nel campo. Su indicazione del giudice il figurante esce dal nascondiglio ed attacca frontalmente il conduttore. Il cane deve dimostrare istinto alla difesa reagendo prontamente, afferrando la manica con presa ferma e combattendo con decisione. In questa fase il cane è minacciato ma non è colpito con il bastone. Il figurante termina questa fase dell'attacco su indicazione del giudice. Quindi il figurante simula una fuga di circa 50 passi, il conduttore tiene il cane per il collare e lo invia all'attacco lanciato su ordine del giudice. Il figurante, su ordine del giudice, si gira quando il soggetto è a circa 10m (anche durante questa fase il bastone viene usato solo per minacciare). Al conduttore è permesso di eccitare il cane con la voce. Su indicazione del giudice il figurante si arresta ed a quel punto il conduttore può rimettere il cane al guinzaglio e recarsi dal giudice per la comunicazione di termine della prova."


Taken from Dobermann Club Italia, please use translater now i have no time.
Big difference is dog alone at pole for 5 minutes before the test (in Slovak e Czech approaches is immediatly ), no theart to the dog alone at pole!

when You not have time to written, please not written ;)
i send You GERMAN ZTP and ONLY hes is real ZTP, others is not valid :) in normal doberman world :)
or italian doberman have "his" ZTP :)

Similar?:shock:...group section is similar??? In Slovak bonitation in Heigenbrucken no group test, other bonitation that i've seen group section for 1 minutes...never group closed the dog like on video..

I've told about pole test on ZTP, i know the other rules but are not intersting!

I see You not know who is real character test and training test :)
ok italian know all better :) poore lithuania going out :)

Yeah Daiva!!, you have reason, you are the best!!:twisted: I have no time to lost with you! You think italian ZTP rules are different? ok...i remember you that you show me a hungarian ZTP!!!

You have said "is very similar"! Why you say is very similar if you know than one is a character test and one is a training test?

Sorry I not have time for You
"Pirma, jei stebetum, kaip vyksta testas, jis yra panasus i normalia bonitacija, o ejimas zmoniu grupeje, tai tik geros dresuros rodiklis, kodel manot, reikalaujama ZTP islaikyti bent minimalaus paklusnumo egzamina, pagrindinis skirtumas yra rankove bei kandimas. Bet kiek minetu ir demonstruotu jusu sunu tai atliktu, atsiprasau, bet su geru figurantu ir bailus suo padarys ataka, tai uztenka pamatyt bet kurioje dresuros stovykloje. Tad ir toliau tvirtinsiu, kad jusu testas tai tik grazus manevras pademonstruoti ismokta pamoka ty ataka. Taciau kadangi ner noro tai suvokti, o tik pasipuikavimas savo pseudo ziniomis, man telieka atsitraukti :)"

this same method :)
Wolland You thinik I am stupid, sorry, but people who have moore brain understand who I and others wish say, only You and italian groupe not :) sorry I have moore interesing work, not bite like idiot with You.
regards

OFF this all post, but - I not understand why this member wish make. Have normal diskusion or make joke and playing in forum. If shange bonitation test this make CZ with Sk clubs not others like italian or others. :) You cann this understand or not :)

I think there is a little misunderstanding...I know my english is very very bad, but Daiva, your Lithuanenglish ;) is terrible !
Is very difficult to understand you.

THe ZTP is the same in all country, did you propose ZTP in change of bonitace for selection of csw ? Right ?

this same- i not understand italian :)
not I but your kolega from Italian :) for my is very good old bonitation SK test :)

All people with brain know than character bonitation codes (all bonitation) are empty and totally useless, and this is clear on the result about a character selection that are stop at same point! Nobody uses the codes for the choice stud. In all country we have shy dog, diffident dog, balanced dog, agressive dog, a few real work dog...people ever talk about work breed, i'm agree but with this selection CZW never will be a real work dog... i talk about this, you want only discredit italian bonitation, italian people, and other too, we remember your crousade against other people, other dog, other breeder...Good work Daiva!

Sorry, woland, I cannot agree with you here... It is true that the test is not perfect, and that even if the code would really reflect the character of the stud it still does not say what is genetic and what is due to upbringing and training, but still, if I like a dog and it's code is Ob, I really think before using it (and I did, but only after consulting with the judge who bonitated it, and considering the character of the rest of the dog's family which I know).

The character test as used today is simple enough and doesn't take so much time, and it still tells us at least something about the dog's character.

I am completely agreement, that is Monika Soukupova for my female (Od) where Daiva Rimaityte for my male (Of), I am completely agreement with the judgement of the test of character. The test of character of the bonitation is completely adapted!!!

Its depend what you call working, all my dogs are working dogs because I use then for work in many ways, but still I never had pass in a working test with then, because in 2 years we had only 2 working tests in my state, and I was not here for make my dogs pass when it happened, so I have no way to proof it officially.
I have 3 wolfdogs comes from 3 very different breeders, and all from very diferent lines, and I can assure you that my 3 dogs are amazing working dogs, in truth, one of the most versatile breed I ever meet in my life!
I'm not talking here about sports, where you can even make a fake title of IPO making the test in your own garden, or training the dog for bite the glove nicelly, maybe making the dog bite their "own glove" or make defence with their "own helpler" :lol: I'm talking here about WORKIG, it means that if my dogs failed, probably I will pay this fail with my life.
I had some oportunities to see my wolfdogs in action, and it was simply amazing, I saw VERY equilibrate dogs, which know how to react, and have body strong enough and able to do what they need.
CzW is a real working dog, but don't wait of him a nice sport dog, so, two different things.

Character test of bonitation, Slovak, Czech, independent of where it is, only select the extreme cases, and its already ok, better than nothing.

I know what Paula is writing about, and I suppose her wolfdogs belong to the 'elite group' of very few TRULY working CVSs: not for fun, nor for scoring points in competitions or tests, nor for showing off in Youtube, or getting better Ps at bonitations, but in real- life situations where a lot depends on their independent "judgements" and reactions.

I hope one day, when they're older and Paula has more observations she will write more about Jezzi's and Oscar's and Mona (?) amazing behaviour and share with us what she's learnt about the breed from her own experiences.

Ehm...apart the work of Paula "Croft" of which I'm very curious (hunting crocodiles in the Amazon's River?):lol:, I think that bonitace isn't a good test for a normal working dog, used by normal people for rescue, for guard, for sport and as a pet too.

Some years ago in a bonitace a csw take "Oh" (good) from a well known Czech judge; few minutes after the bonitace, this dog attacked and tried to kill his own handler!!!!:shock:
I think that a ZTP is far better to evaluate character stability and training capacity (which is very important) of a working dog.

I can agree with you Saschia, Ob is a extreme code, surely we can't say than Ob dog maybe is balanced or good natured but, when we have a Of dog (optimistic, weel balanced), can be very very different than other Of dog. Of code i think is the code for the dog's with maximum attitude to work. Normally if you select for generation Of code dog's, you will establish optimal genetic heritage for work dog...We know this is not realy on Czw!

I agree, tell us somethings about the dog...but somethinghs about phenotype..If you want the code have mean in terms of selection, genetic and improvement attitude (this last the most importanto to create a "memory of breed") must be much better...with this thinks i've said bonitation code is empty...

Paula, i don't know your dog's but "amazing working dog" is hard to say on GSD, and other work breed..only a few can named "amazing workin dog"..are dogs than save people on many situation, find drug's and explosive, assistant to police on public event like concert or sport match, assistant blind...
IPO and other titles are nothing if i can't see the dog work with my eyes, to have IPO with electric collar is nothing! I want to see IPO dog's with other dogs, at show, at home, in the city. IPO dog must be IPO dog not only on training camp!! CZW can be, and i say: "MUST BE" a work dog, but now, sorry but i don't agree with you, CZW is a dog with huge potential to become a Work dog, is not now a work dog, is necessary to select and fix good gene's heritage for delete many features of CZW. 90% OF (bonitation code) dogs have although latent and hidden, the mistrust towards the man, and if you work on defense you can see this clear. This is not good for work, rescue dog must trust on man on all condition, also extreme! This is very hard for CZW. Work dog must have only small competitiveness agaist other dog's, CZW have for wolf heritage (and GSD too, of course) high competitiveness with other dog's. CZW work very well with his brain, collaborating with owner, work dog work much more mechanic (but i would like than CZW will work on his style!!).
Czw have big potential like a rescue dog, especially surface rescue research, for his strong body, high resistance and his nose, and especcialy for his capacity to seak for long time comparison other work breed...but many edges of character must be round off, and for this is necessary excelent character selection...

I'm agree with you, i'm the first to say in Italy :do bonitation is a duty!! I'm not for breed without nothing, like a many italian people, my consideration is not on this mean!!

Suzanna, Paula lives in Porto Alegre :lol::lol::lol::lol: http://www.bugbog.com/images/maps/brazil-map.jpg

My dogs had protect me sometimes in real situations, differentones , in different places, like I would wait of a police dog.
Jezebeth had found 2 kg of drugs in a park when I was training track, I tough about continue in training that and put it specific for drugs, but as far my dogs are pretty unique here and easy to recognized the better choice was don't get involved in this.



We need more uniformity in behaviour, but accept that wolfdogs are more intelligent than other breed, and traine then in different way before complain that they're less treinable than other dogbreeds. ;)
The socialization dependance of the breedis not a huge problem, will not interfere in the working ability if the owner make it right.

Bonitation only show the extremes, I really don't care for the bonitation codes, as I can't truth then anymore, the character test only show extreme cases, we can't believe in the P results anymore, as we can't believe in the faults that are (not) wroted in the final results, in truth, we nor even can believe in the high meassurement. :lol:
Bonitation is a nice test, nice idea, that woud work perfectly if people had done it seriously, but it don't happen.

Depending a lot of what kind of work you want, depending also of who will use the dog, somepeople really enjoyed the CzW, because of his independence and intelligence, that can be able to avoid huge problems for the dog and for the owner in the work.

By the way its truth, but the character of CzW is very dependant of socialization, so it turn even difficult to evaluate the character of hole dogs in the breeding, and arrive to a secure final conclusion.
We also need to remember that, a naturally strong charactered CzW, with strong nerves, isn't a dog for everybody and i'm talking here even about experienced owners, principally by the fact that the dominance counts a lot for this breed.

I would be cool :lol:
Unhaply where I live the violence is high, the laws don't work and we can say that we almost have no police ( or do you think they will work efetivelly, risking their lives for 200 Euros/month?), it can seems stupid, but its pretty common we count how many tchieves/bandits/perverts our dogs had already "eat", even the police agree in we substitue then for the dogs. :p

For you had an idea, my rottweiler died with 6 in her account ( and 7 years old), Oskar in 2 years already have 3. :twisted: