Yes, and if you work 8 hours a week and no member of your familiy is at home you shouldn´t breed and think about having dogs at all, but if you have to live of your dogs you depend on low breeding costs and many litters.

Ina

Big fuss about nothing i think...
It rained.. an they look dirty.. duhh....!

They are skinny? ... i think nowadays dogs are to fat and that's the reason that there is HD. Ive seen dogs that where far worse than these ones... what are we talking about for godsake.....?

Why are we not talking about the puppy factory's in belgium for instance... These people are the real problem.

I think this topic is not about the dogs of Corrie but more about the quirrel that mr Al Pacino has with Mrs. Keizer, Why else wait for so long to the this matter to the forum.. :roll:

Best Regards,

Barry Rokven

Hello Barry,
Why do you accuse Belgian "puppy factory's" ? Of CSW ? Which one?

Greats
Patrick Cools

Have some puppy factory in some others breeds too as in CzW around the world, why not talk about all they as Paul have do with Louba Tar kennel here or for the others breeds, put all that in public?
For do that who accuses need real proofs ( for the justice/law, not for us), and that isn't easy to obtain, that's why, if you don't have that you cannot accuse nobody in public secure.
If you know a puppy factory in belgium and want talk about this in public as Paul have do without have problems, you must find proof's and I think that you must enter already with a process against this person before, if no have that already winned for you.

Greetings

Hi Patrick,

There are a lot of puppy factory's in Belgium and in other country's.
I'm not talking about CSW puppyfactory's because i never heard of those... every dog that is bred in bad enviroments is one to many...

But when i look at the pictures of mr. Al Pacino a do not see any wrongdoing.

My comment is made just to put things in perspective.

Best Regards,
Barry

Hi Nebulosa,

Did not see any proof in the postings of Al Pacino.
If there's no real proof the best advise i can give to a person is to not speak about it at all.

I think the posting of Pacino is mean't to harm the breeder, not to save any abused dogs. If he knew that there was a bad thing happening at the Louba Tar kennel, why come forward with it now and not 4 years early'er..

Best Regards,
Barry

May be my other writing belongs here.
Paul said,-the saarloos breed is in safe hands,- is this so? Obvious you donot now that the nvSWH dog's allso have other breeds mixt in theyr population. And they breed with genetic sic dogs, proved by medical specialist's. According to them only they can breed SWH's. And all other are mixes. I have SWH from them and since we proved the problems in theyr population we are bad in theyr eyes. They asked RvB to take away our litters papers. But now they had to give it back and say sorry. Just out of hate. Allso the case with C.K. And now you let them use yourself?
Meaning-Paul first seem to support CK and now fight her. And seems te have had contact with Dutch SWH club who allso are not objective. Looks more like a personel vendetta.
Allthough i agree dogs look to skinny. The mud looking dogs say nothing. I have wolves and hybrides and they live outside. When it rains for day's the ground looks wet. That will be the case with Paul's animals aswell.
Where is smoke there is fire. But some people seem to overdue.
I hope the motivation is the well being of the dogs and not to a personel vendetta.
Jos

He don't need post the proofs for they exists ;-) , I really not believe that someone will arriving here made such accusations without have all right with the law.
Can be that he don't put all proofs here as not had give complets replies because isn't all 100% done, and if he put somethings in public that can help the breeder to run away of the accusations, can be...

Normally isn't easy find proofs valid by the law, principally when that involves animals and breeding, I not exclude the possibility that was because this that he haven't put all that in public before.

But I really cannot believe that this is only a private fight between the two
if that is will be one "suicide attack" made a public topic like that.

hi Barry, my posting is meant to do all you say puppy mills must be stopped any info on ANY puppy mills please send it to me and action will be taken as soon as hard evidense is made available, read my posts and see why i had to wait a long time, as for Mrs Keizer she can now after reading my posts if she likes Take me to court, i know if someone slandered me like this and it were not true i would,,, wouldnt you? we wait in anticapation for reply from Mrs Keizer or her llegal representitive, and have no fears at all of seeing her in any courtat any time, pacino

Dear (Al) Pacino,

Haha... why.. should SHE.. take YOU to court?
Oh please... i think you give yourself to much credit here....

Maybe it's better not to get yourself involved in slander, and enjoy the dogs you have yourself. There's better ways to spend your time i think.

Best Regards,
Barry

Hi,

sorry folks, but this is a forum for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
I'm more concerned about, although Paul's pics still look disgusting to me, is the fact that Ms Keizer has turned the CSW's coming from her different kennels within 12 years or so into a type of dogs which are hardly CSW's according to the standard. Both in character and phenotype.
Many of them look and behave very Saarlooslike.
Either something happened on purpose or she is just a pathetic breeder.
And doesn't know much about CSW's.
The latter I can prove through a personal talk at a dog show.
But I think the first two points are a topic worthy to be discussed on this forum, since our breed is unfortunately involved.
What I, as a breeder and lover of CSW's definetely not want is the character and the not counted diseases of many Saarloos Wolfdogs.
Even purebred CSW's are not free of health problems as often written.

Michael

Hello,

Off topic, but in reading the posts, it made me curious - other than the tempermental, and hip dysplasia issues, what other problems are found in the Saarloos?

Thanks,
Marcy

Two different kinds of PRA (Progressiv Retina Atrophie), one kind linked with a Cerebellumdegeneration and Epilepsie. All of them rezessiv, what is a problem if there are CSW with crossed in Saarloos because it would be realised quite late.

Ina

HD is not really an issue, looks like we got it from the TWH. PRA is something what we are working on but with a small population this is not easy. A bigger problem is the inbreed depression, smal litters or no pups at all or dead born puppys.
Jos

thanks for the advice but if you dont mind i will still go ahead with the legal action in Holland and put an end to this puppy mill and all the other breeders involved with it,, i do enjoy my dogs but at least i know where they were born and registered not like a lot of people who bought dogs from this puppy mill,

hi, yes we can see what happens from this kennel, we have seen the dogs at shows in Europe, major problem because if they are appearing at shows it means they are being REGISTERED AS CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS ........being bred from, pups being sold to unweary people , it must be stopped,,,,,,paul

Paul, you do not apply to my writing. I still ask myself what your motivation is and who you work with. This SWHclub want's to protect theyr own puppy sale. And as i said a personel vendetta. My organisation is there to protect SWH and hybrides and wolves. I still see no proof. I there for ask myself if it is that bad. And i ask myself what you are doing is this good for the SWH.
Jos

HI Ina, do you base that assumption on Garou loup and littermates or do you actually have information from a specialist. If so please name that specialist, this information might be important.
Sofar, all i know is that the SWH shows 2 kinds of PRA, one late onset ,one early onset. The dogs with early onset that i know don't show signs of cerbellumdeg or epilepsie, dito ofcourse for the ones with late onset!

I did not write they show signs of cerebellum Epilepsie but of Cerebellum Degeneration. The Epilepsie is seperate of that.
I know that of several breeders and owners from Germany and Holland, the case of Cerebellum Degeneration that I know the owner personally was as far as I remember diagnosed in the University Vet Clinic of the Justus-Liebig-Universität Giessen. Which did a DNA-Research too. I don´t know your dog and I don´t know his littermates , so I can´t tell you if they are one of the problem dogs, but there are more Saarloos than yours or the littermates of your dog. Those problems are openly discussed since a very long time and I am always astonished how few communication there is between the different countries in the Saarloos world and the fights there are between Clubs and breeders or owners. The last thing I was told was that the two PRA types occure seperately in the Dutch Club and the German Club . As a vet I am interested in all news about inherited diseases but as Michael wrote before this is a CSW-Forum not a Saarloos one.

For me those genetic diseases are definitly a reason why I would highly apriciate if we would get proofed informations if the rumours about CSW with Saarloos-blood are right or not. This would give future problems to our breed and though I agree with Jos that it is of no benefit for the Saarloos if Saarloos with CSW-blood would be thrown out of the register am I not thinking that it is the right way to help the health status of one breed on cost of the other breed.

Ina

neither did i ;)
(just rered what i have written)

.
My information about the "nebenerscheinungen" in SWh with PRA on a early onset is from this site, or bettter said, the owner C Schroder: http://freenet-homepage.de/whitefang/d0_garou.htm Would be interesting to know if we speak about the same litter or if you know of another case with similair disease pattern!

Hej suski
Tell us the story about Wolfie, please

Rick

off topic, Rick - but nevertheless I remember your words:" contact met de fokker heb ik in dit geval vermeden".

So what?

Angelika

It is a bit off topic, but not entirely, because it's about responsability. I send you a private message.
Rick

clean up
 

hi, i have recieved message from friend in France, seems the photos of the kennels at de louba tar has had an effect, i am told that the kennels have been very busy for a few weeks now, lots of cleaning and tidy up, i see also dogs for sale on wolfdog.org and other sites, i said this is great news for the dogs, then i find out to day that people want to go to de louba tar and visit to see conditions,,,,,,,:lol: knew it was to good to be true,, so if you are one of the visitors going to the kennels it would be nice to see some photos of the excercise areas, we can compair photos and see any improvments, also if you can count the dogs, then ask where they are kept at night, the kennel block has 24 kennels so if we double up that is beds for 48 dogs,, you can also ask to see breeders licence? and the papers from french ministry stating the number of dogs she is allowed to keep at the kennels, it will be nice for people to visit, you can ask to see pomme, skog and zasa zen, these are all pure bred registered saarloos that have been used in de loba tar breedings, well they are saarloos arnt they? do let us all know what you think? you may be very lucky and see sid laird chakka lou another saarloos being well used for breeding. happy new year to all have nice day in France. regards paul

I wonder why this topic hasn't been closed down yet?

It´s depressing
 

I´m goint to answer to michaelundinaeichhorn. I think that the conditions in which this animals are living are horrible. But for me is not so important that they are mixed with shaarloos, or another kind of dog. For me the most important is the bad condittions they are living in. Inma.

I agree with you that if those conditions are this horrible it is of first priority that they get help. But this would be just one more case of abused dogs (what is one too many) but if the CSW are not purebred but mixed with Saarloos there are a lot of countries with a huge problem - they have based a lot of breeding on dogs that may host hereditary problems we didn´t know before and different to Saaloos mixed with CSW this will cause more health problems than before, apart from untypical dogs. This would be a long term problem and Germany is the only country that made every-year eye tests obligatory. What means it is till now the only country that will recognise heriditary eye-problems in an early state - but we don´t have any dogs out of these lines in breeding till today and no breeder here would use those dogs.
Those genes seem to be recesiv, what means they can be carried and spread over several generations till they happen to get obvious. For the breed this is of much greater importance than even 109 abused dogs - if they are living under such horrible conditions, what we don´t know for sure till now.

Ina

And I wonder.... How would you all feel if Paul was wrong....?
Will the disregarded members of the CSV owners community start their own splinter-group? With Paul as their leader?
Please, people, start thinking for yourselves and try not to judge anyone becouse ONE person accuses another...
I have read this topic with growing amazement about how easily all you people (some exceptions offcourse) judge and get emotional about a place you have NEVER been, owned by a lady you have NEVER met or talked to.
Let this Paul fight his own fight with Mrs. Keizer and give your spicy opinions only when you know ALL the facts. Try to hear both sides of this story. Be a little bit more like your intelligent WOLFDOGS and follow your own judgements, you own eyes and your own ears, instead of following the one that makes the most noise... stop behaving like SHEEP...

hi Boelie, i look forward to getting your views very shortly, my fight is not just with MRS Keizer but putting the largest puppy farming ring in europe to an end, these breeders are cross breeding and causing lots of health problems in dogs, to register a cross bred dog as a pure bred dog is illegal,,, to bred from unhealthy stock knowing it carries defects that will come out in the pups is bloody mindlesness, and to sell them on to unwary customers is blatent fruad and desception, everyone is entitled to there views, so i have a question for you , if you live in france and you breed a litter of pups in france can you take them at 6 weeks old to a house in holland get them chipped register them under someone elses kennel name then bring them back to france to sell them? simple question you tell me if this is correct in europe please? regards paul

hi Michael, good post, so as i know lots of people see these dogs and they are different, want to know something, i know most of these dogs and all have pedigree and are registered as czechoslovakian or saarloos wolfdogs, this means they will be used to breed to other czechoslovakian and saarloos thus destroying type temperament and health in both breeds,, waken up breeders in europe, these dogs are being bred into our breeds, it is there for all to see just open your eyes, look at the breeders she works with and you see also the non standard dogs, and they are being bred and sold all over europe, paul

Hello Paul,
From reading the posts in this topic, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that your fight IS with Mrs. Keizer. If this is meant to put an end to puppy farms all over Europe, what are the names of the other farms you have taken legal actions against? What are the names of the owners and where are the pictures of these other kennels?
For your other question, I am not aware of the law regarding the chipping-regulations and the use of kennel-names. I am not a breeder ;)
And are you saying that her whole stock is unhealthy and carrying defects that will come out in the pups?
This would mean that no good dog could come from there?
As for my earlier reply; what I was referring to were those people who immediately juge a person becouse someone else (in this case you) say they should...
It would be wise to find out the whole story from both sides.


This seems to me like a fight with Mrs. Keizer only?....

Where´s the action?
 

So Paul, it has been about a month since your first post about the situation in the Louba Tar kennels. Where is your action? When will be all the informations and hard facts, you talked about, finally revealed? :ehmmm

when the radd or dutch kennel club get there finger out, they will decide on there action, we only wait to see if they run or help,,, as for me i wait on my friends from europe, if it was my decision and up to me, it would be in court to day, and in every dog mag and paper i work with, but i must wait while others who know more do there job, it is frustrating for me but i give my word to these people who have been collecting evidence for OVER 4 YEARS,,,, i give evidence on Mrs Keizer and 2 other kennels, it is signed and i am prepared to go to Holland when asked, but there are lots more involved that even i dont know about, my friends have all the facts and evidence on these breeders, every thing must be 100% correct, there are a few loose ends to finnish then all will be correct for court,, if this was in uk, the photos i show would be enough to close de louba tar down, no court needed she would be banned from breeding and owning any animals for life,,, but there is lots more, breedings, registrations, if it were a few dogs it would be great but it involves over 150 dogs and each dog has to be checked for certain things, this will give you some idea of the massive task and why it has taken years and not weeks, these are clever and devious people who have tried there best to cover there tracks for the past 12 yrs or more, they are not stupid and know some very clever and respected people, we must be very careful as one mistake could cost the case, so please wait like i must, but i give my word to all, it will happen, regards paul

Hi Paul,

May i ask who you're working with then?
Are they breeders like you, who are gaining from the closing of mrs. Keizers kennel?

Regards,
Barry

People, this topic will be closed until Paul have news about this history.
Is possible find replies for some questions in this topic, if still remain doubt's is possible send a private message or a direct mail for Paul.
Please be patient.

Just wondering - de louba-tar
 

I was just wondering if anyone has heard anything regarding the actions Paul had supposedly had taken towards a breeder in France?
I know the discussion was closed.. but I think an update is justified.. Paul made quite some accusations … I think a follow up, especially if his accusations have not been proven, is fair and necessary.



regards,
Bengan

I told him the topic will be opened when he have all proofs officially as the DNA exams, i'm only waiting the confirmation PM for this.
I wonder is why soo many times for a DNA exams... :roll:

I find it strange that he has not been online or has used the forum for the last few months.. the longer it takes the less believable/credible her appears.
You could think that he was just making empty accusations, it's a shame..

Bengan

my husband paul is in Holland this week along with others making there last statements for the kennel club, we also know that mrs Keizer is still up to her old tricks, mrs Keizer has no breeders licence, anyone can check this out by phoning the Frence ministry regarding animals, my husband has all paper work with him or i could give the number, mrs Keizer has recently bred a high wolf content dog called Skog( which bye the way is registered as a pedigree Saarloos) to a bitch called Rubis, ( again registered as a pedigree Saarloos) The pups where born in France then move to Holland at 6 WEEKS of age, this is illegal in Holland,,,, so it will be very interesting (1) to see if the pups are registered as pure Saarloos (2) to see where mrs keizer registers them in Holland or France (3) to see if she goes down as breeder or some other kennel name is used, bye the way to all you people in Holland, Check this out how come Mrs Keizer has TWO AFFIX (kennel names) registered with dutch kennel club,,,,,,this is fact,,, before i go just to prove all i say is true here is the link to the silly friend of Mrs Keizers who slapped this all over the internet to see,, http://www.niawolf.blogspot.com/ sorry this person may not be silly but just another inocent victim of decite that now thinks she owns a pure bred dog, have a look and see if you really think Skog and Rubis are true Saarloos, we know where both animals where bred and by who, this is all illegal and very unfair to new owners and to the Saarloos breed who others work very hard to do selective breeding to keep them pure, we have tried to contact this person but can not as no details come up, thank you for your time regards mrs m winder

so we can expect some new in the very near future.. ??

Question.. if the dogs are not registered in France but in the Netherlands.. why would she need to have a breeders license for France..?
She is registered with the dutch kennel club as a breeder and fills all the requirements that are needed, http://www.raadvanbeheer.nl/uploads/...rochureHKB.pdf (sorry but its only in dutch)

As far as I can tell, looking through all the rules from the dutch kennel club.. there is nothing that says a dog has to be born in the Netherlands in order to receive a dutch pedigree/registration..

As for the accusations regarding "Skog" not being a saarloos.. I believe that is one of the accusations that Paul is trying to prove.. so in all fairness, you shold wait until there has been a judgment.

I still have a few open questions.. regarding your "Club" .. Paul stated that all breeding is witnessed by 2 members and that your club is documenting everything in the hoop that the CWD will someday be accepted/recognized in the UK and that all the dogs that you have breed without an official pedigree up will then be recognized.
My questions were ..
how many members are there?
what is the name of your club..? (have not been able to find any info - google or otherwise)
Is the club registered and is it possible to see the official club charter?
Who are the board members and when were the elections..?

Normal information that one could find on say a club website.

Looking forward to your reply.
Bengan

Puppies born in France are transported via Belgium to the Netherlands.
In Belgium it's forbidden to transport any dog (and animals) without chip or tatou. Registration-law from 1999.
In this case the "flying" douane can hold on the transport of puppies.

Patrick

Hello Solowolf....

Who are these others??... maybe other dutch breeders? Or should we start guessing?

Regards,
Barry

It is also forbidden from international law. Every pet crossing a border has to be tatooed or chipped,

Ina

the others are all independant witnesses who are from various European countries, some are breeders, some are people who purchased dogs with bad health problems, and other people for other various reasons,if you speak dutch then you can contact the dutch kennel club and ask why Mrs Cornelia Keizer has two affix;s registered with them, DE LOUBA TAR and EHWHAZ, she has registered litters in her name under both affixs, illegaly taken pups of 6 weeks of age into another european country with no vet travel certificate and also without vaccinations ILLEGAL, it also is known that puppies are to be registered in country of birth, you can mate a bitch in Holland and return to france to let bitch have her pups, but you can not register the pups born in france in holland, these are FCI rules check them out for yourself. did you know to bring a dog from france to holland for dog show you need travell certificate??? ok maybe a lot of people do not do this but if stopped at border patrol you can be refussed entre with the dog.. p.winder

yes the law is similar passing from one european country to another, but apart from that we are talking about puppies of 6 weeks old in crate in back of van being driven from france to house in holland being chipped then back to france in same day, all because mrs keizer has no breeders licence in france, who here would subject there pups to this type of journey? p.winder

Barry, you sound like you are worried about something ? or geting impatient,, how do you think we feel, its taken nearly 5yrs to collect and produce evidence which is 100% bomb proof, evry single thing we state we must supply evidence beyond any doubt, every witness who has evidence must be able to prove it, a witness who has seen something were only that person has been present with mrs keizer is not good enough, as this would simply be a case of one person against another, no good to us, we have everything that can not be argued with, 100% facts with photos ,videos, regards p.winder

Haha.. i'm not worried at all, and why should i?

It all sounds like a breeders quirrell to me.
Instead of making aquisations against each other it's maybe better to mind your own business or try to work together for a change.

Breeders: welcome to the world of jealousy & envy :ehmmm

I recon a big dutch breeder in holland is also part of your army against Mrs Keizer's terror? Or am i mistaken?

Regards,
Barry

JEALOUSY, ENVY, have you been asleep, have you seen what these people are doing to the saarloos breed, using high content wolfdogs and registering the pups as pure bred with the kennel club, have you looked at photo of SKOG, GLAD YOU SEE A FUNNY SIDE TO PEOPLE BASTARDISING THIS WONDERFUL BREED,

Hi Solowolf,

Nope.. i'm not asleep the last time i checked. :)

But now that you mention the Saarloos breed i think i get the picture about with who'm your working with in this strife for Justice.

I wonder why it's such a problem to tell us who all these people are.
Do you have something to hide?

You can name C.K. as the big bad breeder without hazzitation, but the people who are fighting with you in "the battle of the breeders" are hidden behind closed curtains... i find that a bit odd. :roll:

But hey... it's a utopia to think you will answer my question, instead it much easy'er to backfire with more aquisations (true of false i don't know)

ps.. i can read the articles well without the capitals, please think about your bloodpressure. :)

Regards,
Barry

Paul.. technically you are 'BASTARDSING' the CWD breed with every litter you breed in the UK that is not recognized by any official kennel club.
I know you have made statements regarding you so called club but have not as yet answered any of my questions regarding your club. Questions raised when you stated that every breeding is witnessed by at least two club members.. you and the wife..?
Strange that there is no website and no mention of your club on your personal website..www.ukwolfdogs.com
One might think that you will say anything just to backup your own opinions and or actions. But then again it's always easier to try and make somebody else look bad then to show people how good oneself is..

Regards,
Bengan

de Louba Tar kennel
 

I think "enough is enough". The way "Solowolf" has harassed this forum and personal wolfdog owners with mischief the last year should alert the moderators of this forum to exclude his posts and delete this topic from "wolfdog.org". This discussions are very destructive and dont lead to any good for the breed or its owners. On the contrary they are malicious and harmful and without any credibility.
Fenris.

Sorry, Fenris, but I want to be informed - and as an owner of Saarlooswolfhonden you should know about these crossbreeds as well.

Angelika

Even though my name is not fenris i would like to respond.. YES , i would like to be informed, but with facts please, sofar what has been posted by pacino/solowolf is a lot, but totally lacks facts... and again and again he fails to back his accusations with any fact at all!

The other website is one of the main reasons i as a SWD owner will only buy in future with dna testing, and offcoarse with official FCI paperwork.
There#s many crossbreeding done with both SWD and TWD, and i think these dogs ending up in the population is more of a threat than whatever healthissues we have atm!

I fully agree with you on that. Since I got a little more into this I am getting more and more sure that we will have to have DNA-Tests internationally done.

Ina

You are right, nanouk. But if you read my post again, you´ll see I spoke about SWD and cry-wolf, not about pacino ;-)

just thought people might like to know that Paul is still at it...
Quote from an email sent to

www.saarlooswolfdog.com - 10/26/2008
"hi i have been reading your data base, it causes great concern as a lot of your information is incorrect, for one thing the dog Senna appears in lots of pedigrees, Senna belongs to person in northern Holland and i can assure you this dog has NEVER BEEN USED AT STUD, i have heard recording of interview made with the owner which has now been passed to kennel club and FCI,
also DNA evidence is now available to prove that the father of Zazi zen daoina sidhe is in fact Chrop z kladenske zare cs a czechoslovakian wolfdog, so all these cross bred dogs will soon have there pedigrees withdrawn by the dutch kennel club and FCI, there are also issues concerning SKOG , a CD with all dna , photography and statements evidence has been given to kennel club and FCI, the FCI has been asked to remove the pedigrees of over 250 so called saarloos wolfhounds, the names of all those concerned has also been given in, video evidence of pups being loaded into van in france taken to Holland where they where chipped and registered, then returned to france same day and unloaded again, vets have also made statements, other breeders will soon get letters from FCI as they will be asked to explian breeding irregularities, so brfore long your data base will be short of lots of dogs, mr winder uk"

somethings never change..

Helo Bengan,
but I see there (in database) no pure breed saarlos too. (Czech female with blood of csw). I think, is not easy (better is to write not posiible) to "clear" population from crossbreeds......

de Louba Tar kennel
 

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8722

Maybe this helps you to remind your own statements...

remember you called me more or less a liar about the kennels in France,,, that kennel is now CLOSED DOWN,,,,,,,,,,,Ina CLOSED,,,,,,

de Louba tar
 

Sorry to correct you... but the breeder you are talking about went into retirement and the kennel has been taken over by someone else.. not what I would call "closed down"

As for all your statements.. not one has been proven or published.. so regarding your statements about that kennel... the thoughts are more or less the same..
Bengan

getting out of dogs very quickly and selling all the bastard bred dogs to uk, you call this retirement dream on, tell you what send your name and address and i will send you CD with everything on it then maybe you will keep it shut untill you know what you are jibbering about

I would be interested, like somany times before:
Nanouk Immers
Zwanewater 1
2715BG
Zoetermeer
The netherlands

Me too.

My adress:

Michael Eichhorn
Martin-Butzer-Str. 34
67098 Bad Durkheim
Germany

Thanx!

After more then 30 years..well if you call that quickly .. ok..
I hope you send me the cd a little quicker then that..

Address
Bengt Frantz
Kruiskamp 120
3814PE Amersfoort
The Netherlands..

As for what you call jibbering.. I've just been asking you question as to statements you have made.. be it about other kennels or breeders or even statements you have made about your own actions as a breeder.
If you have a problem with someone wanting to have a validation of your statements / actions .. then that's too bad..

looking forward to your cd
Bengan

I would like to receive the CD too, if's possible

Paula Helm Pandolfo
Rua Guiné 330, Jardim Itati
Porto Alegre
Rio Grande do Sul - RS
Brasil
CEP: 91370-190

By the way I find it funny, you comes now saying that only have pure CzW when we all knows you had make at least one CzW mix litter.
You comes here talking "as breeder" now, when before you told you stop to breeding CzW and have no more CzW at home... now you say you have some still.
With wich personality will you comes here after this? witht he "Paul I don't breeding anymore and I work with hybrids" or with " Paul, I breeding CzW on UK and I do right"?
And after that Ina is a lier and the people on this site talk some bulls*t about you? :lol:
Please this is ridiculous, wich one you want mistaken here?

me too please

Angelika Menzel
Walter-Zeidler-Str. 14
24783 Osterronfeld
Germany

.... and no problem to repay the postal charges :)

I'll also reimburse the postage charges..

greetings
Bengan

Maybe wondn't be more easy send it by internet? host it in a particular site and send the link for download by mail for who he want?

We'll pay you any costs that might occure of course. Can I send you any money in advance?
CD-wise I mean.

Cheers.
Michael

was just wondering if anyone has gotten paul's CD..?

No, did you expect to?

One can hope... but after his promise to post it on his website a few months ago, which he never did.. I should know better.. but I am willing to give him a chance..
Besides.. I am very curious as to see what information he has.. for someone to make such accusations and claims.. one would think that he has to have something.. but if he will not share it, then who is to say, if what he has is correct and or accurate.
Could also be that his imformation has already been proven inaccurate or incorrect and he just dosen't want to admit it..

Have not gotten anything yet.,...

Maybe he's going to send it out in time for Christmas...

who knows...

hope springs eternal ... :mrgreen:

de Loubar-Tar kennels?
 

Just wondering if anyone knows of the above kennels for SWH? I heard they recently imported some dogs to the UK?

Thanks.

Yes, theese saarloso-czechwolfdogo-something are really "very nice":twisted:
http://elevage.de.louba.tar.free.fr/html/index2.htm

I have agreed to send Rona copy of cd, i do this only as Rona is senior member, i have nothing against you personaly and Rona can if asked by others confirm what i say is true but i want nothing more on this site regarding the issue, you will know soon enough all i say is true, I tried my best to warn would be buyers about this kennel and ended up in slagging match, i could not print anything as i said before all was evidence, you will see i do not tell lies about such serious matters, and you will know before christmas, regards paul u.k.

Why ME?:shock: Did you pick my name because I didn't put my address on-line?:rock_3

Paul... "i will send you CD with everything on" .. you have my address.. but now will not send it ...even if I reimburse you for the postage..?

This is exactly what your problem is.. you say/claim/promise one thing and then when you have to back up what you have just said.. or when someone asks you a question which is not in line with what you are claiming you change your story.
You have been claiming to have prove of all your accusations and or claims. When asked.. you say you can't publish it yet because of some law suit or legal action you are taking..
After quite some time and nothing happening..and everyone wanting to know what you have..you first you said you would make all the information available on your website for just one day.. which you never did...
then you tell me if I give you my address you will send it to me.... which you have done...
and how you say you'll only send it to one person... who has not even asked you for it....
come on Paul.... just once do what you say you will do..

Bengan

cheers rona good luck with the phd

i have sent copy to Koos and Letty because i trust them so they already know the truth about it, as long as my friends know all i state is true is all that matters to me, i tried to warn people from buying bastard dogs and i get jumped on because at time i could not give any info out, wee bit of news as no one else seems to get any news in Europe of what is going on,, ON 10 th december corrie has to appear for the "Tucht Commissie" (Board of Disciplinairy Measures)
[for judging at an unofficial clubmatch in Finland as an FCI Judge] supprised you had not heard of this, it is talk of dog world in Europe at present,,, i stated also that it was very strange that corrie has two affixs for kennels with the kennel club, people say i tell lies you can not have two affixs, no one has this, funny if you look it up on this web site it clearly shows she has two, thank you to the person who ammended this for me because it is true, so this was not a lie either but the truth, the DNA tests do not tell lies they were done by professional people who will give evidence in court.....

So the DNA tests was already done, right?
If yes I will open the de Louba Tar topic, well.. was in time I never seen a DNA test take so many time to be made. :shock:

Paul ..

All you are doing is blowing smoke…. Something you have become very good at..
You say Koos and Letty already know the truth.. so naturally you would send them the evidence and not to one other person, who would believe you, if the so called evidence is real.

I find it very strange.. that you can make all kinds of claims/accusations here in a public forum and only backing it up by saying you have evidence and promise to make that evidence public.. but you NEVER do..

As for you breaking news… I can find nothing of it on the website from the ”Tucht commissie” www.raadvanbeheer.nl but then again I am only interested in the rulings / judgments that they make and post on their website..
Has something to do with being innocent until proven guilty..

What does judging at an unofficial clubmatch have to do with her breeding..and any of the claims you have made..?
And the DNA test…? Have they been done..? Do you have the results.. or are they also a part of your “mythical” CD of evidence..?
And is there a court date set for your professionals to give evidence in..?

Once again you open a discussion… I hope you can follow through with it..

Bengan

Thanks.:)
******

I've received several PM & mails asking for the CD (or explaining why I musn't disseminate it.:rock_3) To make things absolutely clear:
I don't know who's right or wrong in the "kennel war" - I lost track on the developments months ago and have no time or will to follow :twisted:

I have certain loose impressions and suppositions, but it's too vague basis to get involved in any way or take sides.

One may write on the Internet anything which does not necessarily have to be true. Any materials may be manipulated, selected according to certain criteria, "uplifted", etc. On the other hand, Paul may as well be right though the form in which acts is questionable.

That's why I don't have the CD and don't intend to get or watch it. 8)

In fact the only valid, hard arguments against DLT or any other kennels suspected of mixing breedes and other unethical practices should be based on the dogs' DNA tests conducted and interpreted by objective, independent specialists.
I belive such evidence should be presented at and assessed by the court of justice or FCI Commission and not me nor wolfdog forum people. (Especially none of those immediately involved in the case)

The final verdict will tell us who was right and who was wrong. :| Only then we'll learn wether some will have to apologize Paul (Bengen, are you ready to do it if DLT loses the case?;-)) or others - Corrie (Paul?).:p:lol::lol:

Rona,

I really do hope that something will come out of it.. it should be about the dogs and not the people.. and I have a feeling it's more of a personal conflict and that's a shame..
It's just strange that someone would make certain claims/accusations and when asked to back them up they don't or can't but then just keep on making more claims/accusations... when one does that, it causes frustration and anger.. As I have said a few times.. I really hope for Paul's sake that his "evidence" is accurate and verifiable, otherwise his credibility will be worth nothing.. and for someone with quite some years experience with wolfdogs.. would be a shame..

Bengan

I never did write you were telling lies....
And also several Dutch people did complain in the past about these strange double kennel names to the Dutch kennelclub.:roll:
And of course I know a lot more rumours about several breeders.;-)
But I'll never believe or add some unproven things about breeders on this site.

When I did buy the pedigree CD rom of the Dutch kennel organisation, I did have the official evidence that this breeder did have (and did use) 2 kennel names.
So at that moment I did add both of them on this site.
And believe me, when I would have more proven things, I would add them. :rock_3
But I don’t want to deal with rumours about anyone! :)

hi, yes i know also of people who complained but as yet nothing has been done??? i have sent u email, if you reply then you have all the evidence i do not want it public as yet, i do not want appologies from anyone just a few words, mr winder is correct in things regarding de louba tar kennels will do,,,,, i have no personal vendetta with Mrs Cornellia Keizer just that she should never be allowed to keep any animal ever again. mr winder uk

Paul.. until your "evidence" is public and proven.. you should keep your opinions to yourself..and if your "evidence" is not made public and proven then it's you who will have to make apologies

oh no not you yet again,, sorry to dissapoint you but i will definately not have to make any appologies, fact 1 I am only one of the people to give evidence in the case, fact 2 it has taken yrs to put together all evidence,fact 3 most evidence comes from members of DUTCH KENNEL CLUB,,,and other witnesses,, fact 4 it concerns your breed interests not mine, but at least i can say i done something to help the Saarloos breed and help preserve it, it is obvious you havnt a clue just how close this wonderful breed is to major disaster in Europe so therefor i must state that infact you really dont know what goes on with the Saarloos wolfhound at all, if you did then you have funny way of showing any concern about it, i know lots of Saarloos breeders and they all know about the cross breeding, false registering bastard dogs, health problems created in France, and yet you have not,,,,, very strang indeed,, Two questions only for you to answer,,, HOW MANY PURE BRED SAARLOOS ARE THERE LEFT? HOW MANY PURE LINES ARE LEFT TO BREED FROM ? Pacino

I did receive the CD of Paul (with 121 pages in Dutch language) and I was not really impressed.
Because there was NO NEW info for me …… except maybe the names of a few dogs in a statement of Paul that were made black. :rock_3

Most of the photo’s were already published in forum topics and links on this site.
In the data base we already did add the two kennel names that this breeder uses. (Based on the facts of the pedigree CD of the Dutch kennel organisation Raad van Beheer).
On this site this kennel is on the list of Dutch breeders because all of the pups get Dutch pedigrees. But all wolfdog people (SWH and CSW) in Holland and abroad know that this kennel is situated in France and that is not a secret (because everybody can see this also on the link to the sites that are used on the Dutch club site and here)
Also a lot of people know that in this kennel you can also buy dogs of other kennels (this info is on their pedigree and contract and a lot of people did show this to others )
And for this forum and site it is also not interesting at all that a breeder uses different addresses and strange contracts.
But..
I only can hope that all the facts and proves on this CD can stop a breeder to do such strange things!

The DNA proves are only interesting for SWH world. And that is why I don’t want to speak or discuss about this here.
For CsW world there were no real interesting or new facts, nor facts that moderators of this site already did not know.

So for me this is the and of this discussion. :|
And for every body who want to know more: please contact Paul. Because I don’t make copy’s of the CD :)

hi thank you for honest comments on cd, i have access to direct offspring from Chrop and can contact owner for sample this may help trace link in lineage to dwarf in CWS, as i do not want any contraversy over vet used, i am prepared to bring bitch to Europe to vet of your choice in spring of 2009, regards Pacino

After many years the breeding business has just been stoped....

Saarloos-breeder sentenced to 4 months in jail

10/20/2017 - 17:45
A French court sentenced the Dutch breeder and judge Cornelia Keizer to 4 months imprisonment. According to the ruling, Emperor would have been guilty of both breeding wolf dogs without the correct papers,and maltreatment of the dogs. An allegation of fraud with foundation fees was deemed not to be proven and for that reason Keizer was acquitted. Keizer said she will appeal.

The story about the 70-year-old Keizer begins in April of this year when the French SPA, an Animal Welfare Organization, receives an anonymous letter in which the breeder is accused of breeding of wolf dogs in "deplorable" circumstances. Pure wolf dogs like the Saarloos and Czech wolf dogs are allowed in France, other wolf hybrids without clear origin are subjected to special regulations and are not allowed in the absence of papers. Also, Keizer was said to breed and sell the dogs in the name of a foundation. This Foundation called Les Loupes Ravis (The Happy Wolves) is a foundation that, according to its website, is dedicated to rehoming primitive dog breeds that are abandoned or need rehoming due to circumstances. After they have been stabilized and socialized, the Foundation is rehoming these dogs with new families, with the Foundation following up.
Keizer is not unknown in the world of wolf dogs. Since her first Saarloos in 1973, she left her tracks in the world of wolf dogs, even though she has a controversial history. Particularly with the Saarloos wolf dogs, there is a fierce struggle between purists who want to avoid any blend of Saarloos wolfdog blood and on the other side the group of people who want to use crossbreeding to cope with hereditary health problems. More specifically, the breeding policy the Dutch Association of Saarlooswolfhonden is committed says: "The centralized breeding policy is characterized by a joint vision of breeding, in which all members take their responsibility for future-oriented breeding and population management. Together we put ourselves on the line for the greater importance: a healthy, reliable and breed typical Saarlooswolfdog. "The other breed club, the General Association of Friends of Saarlooswolfdogs, has a different view. According to them, there are too many inbreeding problems due to this restrictive measure. "Bitches do not get pregnant, and the mating of males was worrying, fewer puppies were born, the litters became smaller and smaller. Puppies were stillborn." Within the NVSWH, there was no hearing, and so the AVVS was established in 2006. Because Keizer was increasingly criticized by her outcross view in the Netherlands, she had already moved to the French Ardennes to establish her kennel there. She was also taken from the Dutch Judges register and registered in the French register of judges, the Societe Centrale Canine, the French Kennel Club.

This went on for years without problems, and the kennel grew bigger and bigger. Until the anonymous letter arrived this spring. The SPA then stated they found neglected dogs. According to the French press, 83 emaciated dogs were found during the check the SPA executed together with representatives of the French court. Other sources mention 133 dogs kept under terrible conditions, including 60 puppies and young dogs. Iwt was said these weren’t the first complaints since in 2012 and 2015 the situation was brought to the attention of animal welfare organizations and police, but nothing was done tat the time. The French breed association for Dutch dogs supposedly had been informed, but did not take any action. Keizer was also a secretary at that association, and regularly worked as a judge. Although there was a one-year suspension as a judge, Keizer returned to the breed association afterwards.

Indeed, if Dogzine asks about this matter at the French breed association, spokeswoman Annie Pouvesle states that no irregularities have been found, even last April. "Les services vétérinaires de la Préfecture suivait le dossier, en n'ont jamais constaté aucun mauvais traitement sur les chiens." According to Pouvesle, the dogs were not confiscated, but the SPA had allowed Keizer to voluntarily remise the dogs because 90 dogs were too many. The counteraction that had been going on for years would finally have been too much for Keizer. "Elle est l'objet de harcèlement depuis de nombreuses années. Ce sont ces mêmes personnes qui sont à l'origine de la plainte, et quai sur internet de fausses information (nombre de chiens incorrect, faux témoignages, etc.) ", or" She has been harrassed for years. These are the same people who are the source of the complaint, and spread the wrong information on the internet (being an incorrect number of dogs, false testimonies, etc.).

The SPA in St. Omer, the place in question, also states that it is not a confiscation but a voluntary giving away. The dogs were not abused, but mainly malnourished, on the verge of bad treatment. "Ils n'étaient pas frappés ils s'agit surtout de surnombre et de manque de nourriture et soins c'est de la négligence mais ça commencé à être unmeform de maltraitance." Injuries other then regular things also were not present. In the shelter they could re-socialize, and the interest for the dogs turned out to be high. Most of them soon arrived in other homes.

And before the lawsuit, Cornelia Keizer also states that it's especially a witch hunt on her and she has been planning to slim the kennel for a long time. "In view of my age, I started 10 years ago looking for a successor to continue my work. 3 failed attempts (hard work, not a lot of glamour in poop scooping, no financial reward!) urged me to hand over the dogs to the most prominent animal protection agency. There are no confiscated or malnourished dogs . " Both the breed association and other sources report that they have been regularly with volunteers at Keizer to help, and also to neuter the dogs.
It is a fact that, thanks to Keizer’s efforts, there are still enough dogs, also in the Netherlands. A source reports to Dogzine: "Apart from this she has sold hundreds of Saarlooswolfhonden in the Netherlands between 1995 to 2008. Without her there would not have been a Saarlooswolfdog population outside the NVSWH." Keizer herself says: "I will be 70 this year and have spent all of my time on my dogs and the cynology in general for 44 years now: directorships in regional dog clubs, co-founder and years of chairman of the Association for Czechoslovak Wolfdogs, board member of several French breed clubs (BHCF, now ABNF) and the club français du chien de montagne de l'Atlas) "The French kennel club, the SCC, states they have no file on this case and have no further information on this matter.
Keizer still had nine dogs, although she states the number is seven. Maybe one more litter in the future, but there is no rush: "Well-deserved rest and travel have my priority!"
Also, Keizer wishes to remain a judge. "The groups I judge (groups 1,2 and 5) give me the opportunity to stay in touch with my favorite breeds and I hope to keep doing until at an even higher age!"
Despite all this, Keizer’s role fort he breed remains of major importance. Thanks to her, although maybe not always fully monitored, there always was a relatively stable number of SWHs, also in the Netherlands. However, the NVVS sees those dogs most preferably removed from the studbook. Even though there are hardly any animals born in the last few years, according to the NVVS breeding records, as opponents report. The NVVS itself reports "There is no big breeding within the NVSWH."
When the appeal is, is still unknown.

Auteur
Andre Heuzer
http://dogzine.nl/en/newsarticle/saa...-4-months-jail

The drama of Le Briqueterie
 

The drama of Le Briqueterie

11/03/2017 - 09:25
“She is famous in the world of Saarloos wolfhonden and a well known name in the French and European cynology.” (Cornelia is) more than just a breeder, she is an artist who continuously improves the breed with both the eye of a painter and that of an engineer. Her first priority is structure. After that movement. As of yet she is the largest breeder of this breed and produces the most beautiful dogs.”
An enthusiastic description of Corrie Keizer found on the website of kennel Canis Africae, owed by breeder and upcoming judge Nicolas Martin, one of the “students” of Keizer. The website states that Keizer functions as a mentor for this kennel.
And this makes it all so unbelievable that the French judge immediately accepted the statement of the lawyer who said that Keizer did not have knowledge regarding the regulations and only incidentally lived in France as a breeder.
Dogzine received many reactions after a previous article on this breeder of Saarloos- and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs was published. We will spend the upcoming weeks to look into these reactions and form a complete image of the situation. It has become clear what has happened regarding Le Briqueterie. Even though there are more sides of this story circulating, the Cellule Anti-Trafic confirmed to us that 119 dogs have been taken away. This has been done voluntary and was not a seizure. However, French sources let us know that the event might have been less voluntary than presumed. A legal seizure is something that, also in France, can take a lot of time. Both the gendarmerie and the animal rights organizations agreed that waiting for a legal seizure would not help the situation of the dogs owned by Keizer, which is why they discussed the possibilities of her handing over the dogs voluntary. This made it possible to take away the dogs immediately, a task that took 4 days in total.

The member of the Cellule Anti-trafique who went to visit the place described that the first sight didn’t look as bad. This means that the adult dogs were kept in kennels, even though these were on the smaller side. Pups and young dogs were kept inside the house, which also contained a “maternite”, a place where pups were raised. The basement was used to home young dogs and pregnant bitches. The member described this as “Conditions in which these dogs were kept are unacceptable. The dogs, including pregnant bitches, were kept in an almost completely dark basement. The bitches and their pups were kept in a dark, moist room.”

According to the Celulle anti-trafique, the taskforce of France’s SPA, the condition of the dogs they saw was severe, but not too severe. The dogs were underfed and one of them had a large tumor, which she died from several days later. However, the most concerning was the social state of these dogs. They were completely unsocialized, aggressive and/or fearful. Especially the young dogs that were found showed extreme aggression.

Dogzine mentioned earlier that the rehoming of the dogs was going well. However, this was only about the dogs that were brought to the shelter of St. Omer. This is just one of the many shelters where the dogs from this situation were brought to. The dogs who were in worse condition were placed in different shelters and organizations. According to the spokesperson of the Celulle anti-trafique about half of the dogs was rehomed. However, the other half includes dogs that require a lot of time to become social pets. For some of them, this might never be possible. The CAF states that the behavior issues are the biggest problem in this situation. As for the living environment, they have seen worse.
Descriptions of the dogs at the other shelters confirm these behavior problems:
“Flamm arrived here traumatized and emaciated.”
“Elyah arrived here on the 10th of May and was extremely skinny and had skin problems.”
“When I adopted mine, it was nearly a corpse.”
“She is fearful and al her education is to be done.”
“He has had very few pleasant contacts with human beings.”
A dog behaviorist who works at the Tilloy les Mofflaines shelter was involved in the seizure of these dogs. She told Dogzine the following shocking story about the situation at the kennel. She arrived at the beginning of May to take the dogs away.
“We had to close the high boxes because the wolfdogs were trying to flee by jumping over the boxes. They were in complete panic. They were hiding during the day and ate like hungry wolves at night. They were skinny. Dick, Freya and Alix were in the same kennel, they’re probably siblings. Alix is aggressive and her brother was defending her.” The behaviorist asked to separate the dogs in order to travel with them in a safe manner. Alix still does not trust anyone and no one dares to clean her kennel and feed her because of this.

Heyden, a 6 month old puppy that was only 3 months old according to Keizer. “I took him home for 2 months. He was not used to anything, was afraid of the leash and was only active during nighttime. He was about as large as a 3 month old German Shepherd and suffered from giardiasis.”
Montana is the dog who had a tumor of 2.5kg and 25centimeters. The caretakers first suspected her to be pregnant. She was put to sleep because of her condition.
When caretakers arrived, the justice department was already present. Keizer refused to catch her dogs because according to her they were dangerous. The kennels contained some “dangerous” dogs, who eventually turned out to be in bad shape and health, according to the therapist. The situation did not improve immediately after the dogs were brought to the shelters. “Yuma is a bitch that I still cannot touch or stroke to this day. She doesn’t get along with other dogs, misses a piece of her ear and has a scar on her muzzle.” The other dogs all seem to be in a similar shape: fearful, traumatized and not able to live as a pet at the moment. At the beginning of June the organization returned to the place to pick up the last remaining dogs. “As for pups, I have never seen so much misery and fear in the eyes of an animal. They lay on each other or seemed immobilized by panic.”

The experiences of the CAT and the therapist were confirmed by many. It’s made clear that this situation was not developed in a matter of months or even a couple of years. Dogzine spoke to some of the volunteers who helped Cornelia Keizer at her kennel, sometimes many years ago. “I saw emaciated dogs, scared and trying to survive, living in the mud and moist. The place was inhabited by large rats and the dogs lived in kennels and cardboard boxes. Except for the best looking dogs. The ones who were good enough to take to a dog show. I often took my own dogs to the places I worked, but I never took them there because of the horrible circumstances these dogs were in, this was a living hell. When I worked there, there were nearly 80 dogs.”

Keizer, a breeder who works with pedigrees, was not very interested in which dogs mated to which. “When I worked there she once told me she found dead pups whose navel cord was still attached to their mother. She did not even know the bitch was pregnant.” All of this happened under a breed club that not only accepted Keizer’s actions, but also recognized her as an valuable member and where she judged the breed several times. (De Vereniging voor Nederlandse Herdershonden, chairlady Annie Pouvesle).

And there is more. “People who bought a dog there received a pup out of accidental matings with no health tests or screening done. They often didn’t know if the dog was a Saarloos, Czech or a mix of both.”

Other volunteers tell us about the dog cemetery that is said to be on the terrain of Le Briqueterie. The CAF could not confirm this, nor did they look for something like this. They also cannot confirm rumors about Keizer asking her neighbors to shoot and kill some of her dogs. This was told several times by different sources.
Apart from these experiences and confirmations about the situation at this place, more stories about the breeding practices under different kennelnames have reached us. We will continue to investigate this in the upcoming weeks.

Names of the cited persons are known to the author

Auteur
Andre Heuzer
http://dogzine.nl/en/newsarticle/drama-le-briqueterie