Hasn't Mr. Winder ever heard the expression 'two wrongs don't make a right'? :|

This is since a long time for everybody to find on the Wolfdog-Healthinfo site :)

Why all the bitching, anybody in britain want to meet up to organise a strtegy to get the CSV recognised by the kennel club

Well there is the facebook page but its always pretty quiet on there!

Accidentaly I got accross that kennel webpage, (or a similar one ?) I found some sections really humorous:
:shock: :lol::lol:

Brilliant idea.

Taz

Yes, it's really good to see that they know the history of the breed that they are bastardising... If it is the one I think you mean, he does not even know who the dam of one of his breeding bitches is - class breeder :?

Which FB page is that Murph? The only one I could find has died a death due to the infighting of the breeders... Maybe a new one needs to be started up to get a database of pure CsV's in the UK started?

I wish the best of luck in getting CsV recognized in the UK. According to Hedeon's post on page 4 regarding recognition, the KC rules states the following info must be included:

- Names & addresses of UK owners/importers
- Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
[ideally at least 20, preferably unrelated]
- Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations
- Proposed breeding plan and indication of available gene pool

Hopefully there will be some breeders in the future who can fulfill point 4, because surely a proposed breeding plan acceptable by the KC can not include cross breeding or mixing.

Excellent idea!

Nice idea, but why on FB? Maybe here it is possible to name at least the dogs, then the breeding plan could be made by experienced CsW breeders together?

Well, I fully agree. One person is not able to do it, owners need to unite and cooperate to get CSV recognized. I am no owner yet. Hope that I will become soon. But I am willing to help any way I can.
And we will also need help of more experienced people from this forum as I dont completely understand what KC mean by "Proposed breeding plan" and "Gene pool".

By FB you probably meant this group:
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?g...3469887&ref=ts

I fully agree Vaiva, but maybe FB is less daunting at first to those in the UK (I have had many comments about anti-UK feelings on here - I personally don't see it, the comments are directed at individuals who, imo, deserve it not at UK owners). Once they have made contact via FB, they can be directed onto here. Another issue UK owners have is the way the new database describes their dogs as ''(possibly) a wolfdog from a non-FCI kennel'' - I'm sure there is a more diplomatic way to put it :) After all, it isn't their fault that the KC doesn't recognise the breed...

We all need to help the core of true CsV lovers to thrive in the UK - that way the existing 'breeders' with bad practices will be shamed and (hopefully) find themselves out of business.

I don't think it is insulting. It just says what it is, dog not registered with FCI. Which is true. I am sure that most of those dogs are pure CSV, but some are not. When they get registered with KC they will be allowed for breeding. How to separate them?

I would be very careful joining the above group the admin one named sandra curry is a main promoter of crossing czech and she has just breed czech with german shepard and is selling these as 'anglo wolfdogs' and many on this site are actually not breeding pure they are mixing them!! In my opinion this is truely shocking and the more I look the more shocking it is...

This is her website and links to all the other ones!!

http://www.sansorrella.com/breed%20information.htm

I see you are a member and post on here? same as the breeder that is mentioned throughout this link

I agree it would be great to find a like minded bunch in the uk that are not mixing this breed .... I THINK from what little i've seen its going to be hard to find breeders who dont dabble in mixing this breed in the UK...as each and everyone i've seen mix breed......along side 'pure breed'...hmmm lots of dabbling going on!!

You need to look at this anglo wolfdog site!!!!!!!!

sorry to those who dont like dots and dashes i was thinking allowed via my keys again...old age! forgiveness is required!

I'm sure there are many in the UK who would like to keep the Czech pure. Yes, hybrid vigour is a good goal in general but not to the detriment of the breed i.e. temperament and behaviour. Please don't tar all in the UK with the same brush - there is a future for the breed here and now that the quarantine laws have been amended, things will change!

Perhaps rather than trying to find the needle in the haystack wich is a breeder that doesn't mix, enthusiasts may be better off starting over again. Importing new bloodlines etc, not relying on the breeders here, even if they own a dog from one. I don't think the kc will take any application seriously, if those applying include people who actively pointlessly cross breed.
Yo

I too maynot own a csv yet, (though hope to be able to some day) but I'm prepared to help in anyway I can, to insure the breed gets the fresh start it deserves here.

Ref the anglo wulfdog breeder;

So you can see the sires a gsd cross to then? She wasn't happy when I mentioned it, she was sold him as a tamaskan,which annoyed the genuine tamaskan breeders, as he isn't and looks nothing like one. I genuinely thought she knew as well, after all, I recall the litter he came from had a pup in it, that was marked exactly like a black/silver grey gsd puppy...I've seen plenty of tamaskan puppy pics and not one has ever looked anything like that. But then, the parents of him were imported from a puppy mill in NC, so god only knows what they really were a mix of.

She swore she wouldn't use her csv to create mixes too and got all annoyed when I asked why...Why? she knew my opinion of those who mix their csvs, I wasn't going to make an exception for her.

Incase you didn't realise, I'm a member on her forum, though I've not posted since my temp ban ended. The above situation being the cause of that.


Taz

I am curious if the cross-breeders cite "hybrid vigor" as the reason for their mixing?

Mijke posted a link to all the known CsV health issues - if a person is mixing with CsVs, they should be testing for all the diseases CsVs are known to carry too.

Can they post the results the health testing they have done on the mixed dogs, so to say objectively that such breeding is actually making the dogs healthier? :?

:cool3 Agree and if any support needed, I'm sure there are many breeders and owners (including myself) who will try to help.

My advice to British solid owners and potential breeders who want to honestly develop the breed in the UK: go to CSV summer camps, meetings, bonitations with or without your dog and let yourself known to European vlcak community. Meet other owners and breeders, watch the dogs, compare, learn how they're trained and socialized, what problems are faced when raising them, etc. Not to mention that at such events you'll have the chance to learn things which are never put on-line. Lots of people speak English now, so there is no language barrier and cheap airlines are really conveniant for such purposes, especially that the events are announced so far ahead. Alternatively a few breed fans might share petrol costs and visit a couple of kennels on their way.... It often happens that wolfdog owners put up other wolfdog owners/lovers or help them find conveniant accommodation ;-) so the expenses do not necessarily have to be high, but the non-material gains IMO are huge.

This is exactly how Hedeon started his journey towards his own CSV and I think he does not regret it. 8)

Once again, fantastic advice from Rona :gent

And a warning about the lady mentioned above - I spoke with her before (better the devil you know ;-)) and have learned that she is looking for a breeder to send her sperm to inseminate her female... Be warned!

I agree that differentiation is needed, but not sure that the addition of ''(possibly) a wolfdog'' is entirely necessary at this stage - it would be enough to say that the dog comes from a non-FCI kennel and should not be used for breeding. It doesn't affect me directly, I can just see why some people are a little upset.

Interestingly, a dog owned by one of these 'breeders' (who doesn't even list all his puppies on here) is classed as suitable for breeding yet has NO health data at all, yet dogs who have all the necessary results are still listed as NOT suitable as ADMIN has not updated the results yet. Mixed messages?

Which female? A mix one or the one of unsure parenthood? :twisted::evil:

I can see how hard it will be to gather a group of honest enthusiasts who could trust each other, so that none of them will undermine the attempts from the inside.:twisted::lol:

This reminds me a bit of communist, pre-Solidarity times in my country... :lol:

She has a Shoshone female, but is not listed on here as the owner due to a disagreement with the breeder, I think. I think it is litter sister of Layla's dog.

It is a bad situation in the UK, so a few strong, good people will be needed to support the group and keep everything on the straight and narrow (you know who I mean as one of them ;):)).

would we need a certain 'persons' co operation? and where would we stand on the cw dogs are they from 'suspect' litters? that and at least two litters of said dogs are from 'c' rated hips....kinda bad way to start already!!!

and dont get get me started on the person that said 'they would only breed pure' with my dogs litter sister....breeders beware is all i can say!

its all an excuse!! alot of the cross breed owners here call their dogs pure as, 'quote'..... its the closest your gonna get to one!!!.... er no its not!!!!!

its all about £££££££

i disagree ,it IS insulting.... my dog is an unregistered csv not a 'possible csv' there is a big difference imo

2 young brood Bitches wanted
 

Can anyone help?
I want to improve the lines of CsV in the UK, dogs with low hip score and free of DM, can anyone help? It seems like there is NO help or advice being given to people who want to breed pure CsV in the UK, just people complaining.
Yes I have bred pure CsV with 3/4 CsV bitches, when NO ONE will sell a pure bitch & no one is prepared to help then you make do with what is available. I can see how strongly the European CsV owners and club want to keep their breed pure and I want to also do the same, so I come to you for advice and help.
I want 2 pure breeding bitches 15 to 20 months old to breed with. I want low hip scores & DM free. CAN anyone or IS anyone prepared to help promote a new healthy pure line in the UK to a serious breeder who is determined to promote healthy dogs that are kept and bred in exceptional facilities in the UK? Many breeders lie & are stabbing each other in the back here instead of getting together to promote what is best & good for the CsV.
There are even certain breeders who are trying to lie about me to stop me getting bitches to breed with, I can only think this is out of jealously as I have never wronged anybody.
There are many unscrupulous breeders with dirty tactics. I have never and will NEVER lie about my dogs, their age, breed, health, pups or dates of birth, unlike so many!
I WILL breed pure CsV bitches and dogs, one way or another but I want to do it properly.
Please message me any advice or information, I am not too proud to listen and learn.
Thank You

Hi Paul, great to see you here!! I certainly hope someone will sell to you even if its pups in Jan looking at the long term plan!! Working together is the key!
I would buy from you if I was in the market.

hi :-)

i do worry with regards to you wanting purebreed bitches.... as you yourself state you breed crosses because 'not everyone can handle a purebreed' that argument alone is not true...mixing with working breeds of dogs makes them no easier to handle.

also your stud/s are not fci registered or will u not be using them?

also....why not live with the breed before wanting to breed? i believe you have not owned your dogs for very long at all and seem to produce vast numbers of pups.

why do you now want to suddenly breed purebreeds?


eta...yes we got off on a very bad foot,but tbf you threw your toys out the pram about comments i didnt even write,then threw insults at me on a group on fb because i spoke out about crossbreeding....and now you have changed your mind about crossbreeding?.... what happened to 'change your mind'?

i thought u had mentioned it would be 'too risky' for u to buy from a breeder that produces cross csv's :?

If anyone is interested in getting round that table and taking the breed forward in Britain, i suggest we meet up somewhere in Britain form an official British club and start to organise a stratedgy to get these dogs recognised. We could organise trips to the european events and try to get european CSV comunity to start to trust in Britain again, a long journey i know but it gets shorter once its started. Message me tell me where you would like to meet and lets get started.

Oh and just because someone bred mixes in the past dosent mean they should be excluded, this is a new start, so lets all get together and fight for this breed in our country, if we do it before October ends that would be better. stop arguing with each other and get it going

as in weeks ago :shock: thats not past!!!

and im sorry..trust imo is a BIG thing!!.....or it will all end up like the 'wolf-alike' rubbish!!!

And to most of us on here but if we exclude people they will carry on as they are lets get a club started and lay down some rules its not hard if we want it bad enough

I did and I also mentioned I am an owner of a FC1 older female who i brought with me to the UK who is spayed, and how I wasnt a breeder, didnt intend on buying a puppy and also thought that re-educating and improving standards were important!! I also agreed that perhaps not all 'breeders' are or have 'bad' intentions and perhaps if we trust in one that has experience of the breed and wants to work/ learn more link this with the members of this forum and breeders of europe then maybe things can change..no point presuming he not open and honest, by the fact that he posted on here asked to work together to improve the breeding in UK is in my own opinion a great step forward.

I am against mixing breeds but not against re eductation and doing the right thing for the breed! I prefer to encourage such a breeder to with support stop mix breeding and promote pure breeds in the uk !

Giving everyone an equal chance?

still having a dig are we..shame you really need to stop the back biting and focus back to promotion and education of breeders/owners! looking forward to hopefully KC registration of the breed

Excellent posts pixie. I believe in inclusive discussion.... Not petty bitching.
Tupac- I know you feel strongly about wolfy crosses so how come you got your dog from a breeder who does just that?
Please note this is a simple question not a snipe

REGARDING BREEDER "ORKWOLF"
After checking out certain members and posts etc I am astonished to be taking undeserved lies, criticism and hate. Why, I have not wronged anyone, the people commenting vocally don't even know me, they have never spoken or met me or my dogs, so how dare you.
I am not the only breeder in the UK who breeds pure CsV to 3/4 cross CsV. Why am I getting slated!
I take the care of my dogs and pups seriously, I have been working alongside my animal welfare officer over the last few months to become Orkneys only licensed & regulated breeder, this should be completed by the 28th October, not the actions of a back street breeder with no morals or regard for his animals!
Its well noted that my dogs are in excellent health and want for nothing as are my pups.
YES I do vet interested new owners with a variety of important and thought provoking questions that have to be emailed back to me so I hold as a record!
YES I give out an Adoption Contract that has strict stipulations as to the care, welfare and commitment to my pup and it also legally enables me to take back MY pup/dog if it is in anyway miss-treated, abused or neglected.
I DONT lie, I dont change records or switch pups/parents on forms, I dont change dates to sell pups, I dont breed super high content hybrids and sell to people with very young children, all information about my dogs and their breed details are readily available. ALL of my pups are vet checked TWICE and all vaccinations done, they are wormed every 2 weeks from 4 weeks on, treated with frontline, microchipped, new owners are vetted and are under contract, I am in contact with every one of my pups owners and know where every pup is. All my dogs are registered with my local council and vets, all my pups births are on record with exact dates and parentage. I only breed bitches that are over 2 years old, and breed bitches with a full 12 month rest gap from their last litters and breed only 4 litters per bitch, unlike so many other breeders!
I took back one pup recently because the new owners had lied about how long the pup was spending on its own, this was a first in 6 litters, I travelled on a 25 hour round trip {including two 7 hour ferry trips, one ferry trip was storm force 8!} to get her back safely and I re-homed her with a loving caring current Orkwolf pup owner. Are these the actions of an inconsiderate uncaring breeder just out for money? NO. So why exactly am I being talked about in this way, what, because I breed a pure to a cross? I will breed pure CsV dogs when I am able to find suitable honest breeders who health test their dogs.

TO THE ONES WHO CRITICISE
Come to my farm on the Orkney coast, stay the weekend, see my dogs, play with them, fuss them, see their two exercise areas both 2 acres big, or see our own enclosed area of beach, that we own, that they play on, see their above standard kennelling, their health records, the £1000 every three months on vets bills, the £200 I spend on meat and food every week, see that I am not making £££££ but putting everything back into the care and welfare of my pack!
The actions of a few bring into question the accuracy of any information on this site.
I take immense offence to the comments that have been made about me and can prove they are lies so REMEMBER putting incorrect, miss-leading hateful remarks and lies on public forums like this will lead to prosecution an these ones being sued!!
I am watching very carefully certain ones who have for unknown reasons taken to libel and slander, MARK MY WORDS I will sue you if you continue, YOU know who you are. I am doing nothing wrong, but certain ones actions here are illegal.
Thank you
Paul Collins. ORKWOLF

oh dear, did paul also turn you down when he vetted you like the other breeder did.seems very much like you have a bug to bare! give him chance to reply to you and yes would be fab to get a group together!!

I am against mixing breeds but not against re eductation and doing the right thing for the breed! I prefer to encourage such a breeder to with support stop mix breeding and promote pure breeds in the uk !

Giving everyone an equal chance?

I agree please lets stop all this bickering and look at the bigger picture,

hmmm......im backbiting am i? i find your posts are inflammatory and contradict themselves......

you have done 'digging' on this thread.......

pmsl!!!!!!!!!! i have never approached him for a dog!! fact is he doesnt breed pure anyway! lol

are you two friends??

you think you know everything about me ,you know nothing and its laughable the conclusions you are coming to lol!

Hi Paul, what's the hurry? Why not get a female pup, nurture her and learn from her then breed when she has reached maturity? Then you can consider getting a second to do the same...
Also, wouldn't it be better to see who has interesting bloodlines compared to your males (who are non-FCI, I believe), rather than just going for any '2 pure breeding bitches 15 to 20 months old to breed with''. These are living beings, not machine parts :).

I hope that came across worse than you intended - a wee bit of a threatening tone in there... I'm not having a go at you, just pointing out that your post comes over badly :) - or maybe that's just me?

Hi Paul, dont know you and think that this was a very good post but again you are bickering, I understand that you are upset with certain people on here, as you obviously care about your dogs, and you are exactly the type of breeder we need in this country to start getting the CSV bred pure which is why I say there should be a new start from the first meeting hope you dont sue me lol Chris

INCORRECT, dont take this the wrong way but I took dislike to your stomping on people and your very strongly opinionated views.

Secondly ive lived with the CsV for 4 years before breeding, I only bred last year and started with another breeders bitches, quite a few of them! Its been a learning curve and IN HINDSIGHT I would have done things completely differently, naive??.

YES I want to go down the pure route and be recognised! BUT I want to go down this road with pure CsV with NO DM, with excellent hips and health testing, I want my own line NOT from UK breeders here.

I hope that answers your questions.

Is standing up for myself bickering?

You asked me a question? which I responded with my opinion, if you dont like it dont ask, you seem to be very jumbled yourself ? portraying your dislike of such breeders however after being rejected by one we know of , you buy from another? double standards? hmmmmm If you dont like their practices why buy from them in the first place?

Having a dig at me may make you feel better but it isnt really helping the thread is it? supporting change is much more important than your petty back biting!! Giving Paul chance to voice his opinion is only fair as we read and listen to yours! the forum is open to all and we are all equal!

Good point, but with all the negative against cross breeding, I thought it would be a better way to start over and move on?
Sorry I wasnt being aggressive, I had heard that a certain person was going full steam ahead to make sure I never get a pure Bitch?? Mr Winder who ive never met or spoken to other than to send condolences when hie "Kizzy died"
That doesnt help the cause.

I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
1. If a breeder breeding under FCI recognized KC has even one mix bred litter and sells it, he loses breeding rights for good, no matter how much he wants to get things right afterwards. This is a major crime against regulations and breeder ethics and such person is persona non grata among honest breeders.

2. If an accident happens (things happen even in best FCI kennels) and there is an unwanted mix-bred litter, a responisble breeder gives away the pups to good people and makes sure the dogs are neutered asap. Not to mention that he'd never boast about it on his/her webpage, becasue this would put his reputation at risk.

3. If a dishonest breeder consciously mix-breeds he usually tries to issue fake FCI pedigrees and when this is found out- he loses his reliablity and sells later only to puppy mills and ignorant owners who don't know what they're buying. If this is proved - look at point 1.

Once the British "pup manufacturers" (sorry for this expression, but for me a breeder is somebody who is a purity guarant of a particular breed), who keep producing mix-bred litters understand how they're percieved among the solid CSV breeders they will finally understand why they may only trade with puppy mills whose owners don't care what happens later to their "kids". No wonder caring breeders don't want to sell them good quality pups - they value their own work and efforts too much to have it wasted or risk their pups will be used for non-ethical (in their justified perception) breeding. :|

Of course not but were does it end, probably with no one talking to each other and the breed going backwards again, if everyone met up face to face it would all get sorted without this in-fighting, i think btw have seen some pics of your dogs they look great Chris

Are you saying that Mr. Winder is trying to put the kaibosh on your plans? What influence does he have? No one on here trusts him as far as they can throw him...

Hi nice to meet you.
I really wanted to breed the pure initially, but couldnt find a suitable girl, I went to a breeder to get a bitch but ended up with a good few adult crosses, like I said in hindsight I would have done things differently. But its never too late. I want to change that now. But I dont regret the wonderful pups ive had and the great people I have met.
paul

Never met him before, however thought he was brave posting on here!! and very honest.. shame you want to continue your attacks towards forum members ..

nice to see other newer members politely thanking him for his post.

You are quick to judge and voice an opinion, shame you can not accept opinions of others!

Once again, Rona cuts to the heart of the issue and makes sensible valid points :Rose:gent Points that need to be considered by ALL parties involved...

[quote=Rona;405213]I'm sorry but I think you underestimate the HUGE mental difference between two breeding cultures: the FCI and... I don't know how to call it... British (?).
Maybe i dont understand it but we want to start afresh and getting recognition in this country is my priority

oh thats interesting, I was under the impression he had a lot to do with this here and had some clout from what I had heard. I tried to log on a few weeks ago but my account was deactivated? I thought it had something to do with him as a breeder had recently told me about the "people who "hated" and gave names, bit strong I know especially as ive never met any of them? I had sent 6 emails to admin asking why but no reply so though the worst but rejoined today, glad I did as someone had to speak up, I am a genuine person and genuinely want the best for this fantastic breed. My Zavvie is a complete bruiser but I love him to bits.

[quote=pixie;405220]HERE HERE!!!:)

Thank you Chis
I agree, I have never and will never hold a grudge, of course no one likes being miss called when they are doing their best but bickering will get no where especially when there are more important issues to be talking about, people are of course entitled to their own opinions but it is does get out of hand.

Best regards
Paul

[quote=happyfeet;405223]
I would welcome that and would like to help in any way.

What attack??? :? :?

I said hi,with a smiley face then asked valid questions!!

Thank you for your comments, hopefully as we go along you will all see that I am 100% honest and genuine, even though I have CsV and cross Csv I do want the best and a dream would be to have new pure lines in the uK that are accredited and fully health screened and tested.

You've been mislead there - he is, and has been for some time, banned from this forum and has now resorted to getting other users to post on his behalf. Many on here feel the other users are actually himself... (he has a unique writing style and grammatical grasp of the language that is all his own!)

Earlier in this thread is a post by Nebulosa with a link to an old thread detailing why he has been banned - even on that he is arrogant and threatening!

I'm one to talk - what kind of nonsense is that?!:p:oops:

LOL, I had noticed that actually, LOL
Is there an Official and recognised CsV Club in the UK

BT, W I have never met Paul or Mandy Winder but I think they would be extremely valuable in forming a CSV club in Britain, As I said lets all start afresh

I wish you luck! I am a newbie here too, hard to voice an opinion but stick with it, I am an owner of a pure FC1 shes older now and I brought her with me to work in UK, was a hard decision to go threw putting her threw all that was the worse thing but knew I couldnt leave her ! Now she lives in a little village yorkshire dales amidst fields , farms and tractors and is a star as we pass the tiny village school.

No, and therein lies the problem. No club so no-one has a record of all the pure CsV's in the country, bred there or imported, and that would be needed before FCI recognition could happen...

That's the problem, that you don't. :|

Which reliable and solid breeder breeding "quality" pups could trust somebody whom he perceives a "pup manufacturer" only because the latter says: "I bred mixes last month, but from now onward I'll breed only pure CSV..." :roll: You forget that pure CSVs are very smart and stupid people just do not breed them :)

People clearly see the true motivation of the "converts": pure vlcaks' market will probably be growing and for mixes shrinking... Why should anybody purchase a 1/2 vs 1/3 vs 1/4 hybrid/mix (yes, I saw such a puppy being offered in one of the British kennels :rock_3) for over a 1000 GBP if he may get a pure dog with FCI pedigree, from health tested parents, good HD record and predictable character for half the price?

I think and it's not only my impression, the above discussion has little to do with breeding. More with a struggle for market share. :| Well, I'm not against market mechanisms in general, but even in business trust matters.

I understand that trust matters and maybe some people will join us purely on a money making scheme, but we have to start somewhere, which is why I originally said lets start a club, then visit some European shows to build up trust. but if European breeders dont help us we cant catch up. I read this forum and see that some european breeders breed just for money and use mixes, and they have all the help of Europe behind them, yes I know some British breeders will still do this even try and trick European breeders into selling them dogs. This is not a perfect world but some of us want to try and promote the breed for what we consider the right reasons, all I am asking is give us a chance to prove it.

They don't have the backing and support of reputable breeders once it is shown that they are using mixes. Just look at the problems Crying Wolf has created for herself and for the breed - I don't see a lot of support for her there.

Hi I was'nt saying they were helped to cross-breed just that they can get hold of the CSV's easier than us in Britain, but still do it, so even if we start afresh people will still crossbreed, I mean look how many mongrels there are in the world. So i apologise for not making it clearer what I meant

I have got to ask about the phrase 'People cannot cope'

You said this very recently on a facebook page (within the last 2 weeks) as your 'reason' for crossing these dogs.

Have you now changed your mind?

double standards eh happy feet!!

mr winder didnt want to sell me a dog(which was fine by me!),so according to you there is something wrong with me,but mr winder does not(apparently)want orkwolf to either but thats ok by u!! lol!!!

+

To Pixie:
That's exactly what I had in mind :)

I'm sure there are people who will recieve massif support and backing from continental breeders and owners if only they decide to breed CSV pups, instead of producing them. But I doubt if any good breeder is naive enough to send his pups to somebody who orders dogs like items in e-store. :(

From reading this entire thread I just have a few observations ..

1) Nobody, as I am aware, has accused anyone of mistreating their dogs or not being caring to their dogs. The point is solely that cross-breeding is not in the interest of furthering any purebred breed. Including Vlcaks. And if you do it, you are abusing the breed no matter if you are nice to your own dogs.

2) Nobody has said only a specific person or only UK breeders cross-breed/s. It's well known that there are breeders outside of UK that cross breed, but I don't know where the idea comes from that these breeders are not equally criticized. There are several threads on here that discuss several European kennels known to cross breed. There is even a sticky thread specifically noting which here: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17707

3) In regards to crossing CsV because you have to 'work with what you've got', well, this is not a valid argument to me. Here where I am I do not have a breeding female Vlcak within many hundreds of kilometers. But I do have many Chihuahuas and Pit-bulls in this area. Point being, whether or not you breed to a "3/4ths" Vlcak bitch or a Pit-bull, it is cross breeding nonetheless and does nothing to advance the breed no matter where you are. Unless your sole intention to breed is to create 'wolfy looking dogs' without caring to preserve the history and nature of a purebred breed.

4) It's all well and good to want to make a new start, but as Rona said, trust matters. If you were breeding mixes just last month, or ever, really, it doesn't matter that you say you're interested in breeding purebred dogs now (and btw, does that mean that you will ONLY breed purebred dogs from now on, or mostly purebreds with some mixes now and then?).. no good breeder is going to send you a nice bitch or dog until you have proven through action to be interested in the breed and the welfare of it.

No matter what anyone says people are going to judge you by past actions, and rightly so, until you make future actions to prove otherwise.

I hope that there is a group formed that does show that there is a future for well-bred Vlcaks in the UK. And right now, virtually no good breeder is going to send anyone a nice Vlcak to breed with, like Rona said, the only ones to do it at this moment will be other producers.

It takes lots of time to change past histories and perceptions, correct or not, just like politics. It's not going to happen overnight or even by January, if you want to go about it right.

Just my two cents.

[quote=yukidom

Just my two cents.[/quote] Agreed but we need support while we try

:biggrina I totally agree. It was amazing meeting. Same, with the dogs and the owners. I never even did expect such reception. Everyone was so friendly and helpful. People simply wanted to share all knowledge about these dogs, many offered support. And great party. As Rona says, anyone seriously considering a CSV definitely should go to one of these meetings. We regret that we do not live closer, as I would like to be there more often than we can.

In such a case I did wrongly understood it as "possibly CSV from not-FCI registred kennel" :roll: still CSV but from not FCI registred kennel

ahh :) 'lost in translation' maybe? :lol:

Actually to be fair, I have NEVER ever spoken to Mr Winder other than to respectfully send condolences for the loss of his wolf Kizzy. I certainly have NEVER EVER spoken to him about buying a dog, he is absolutely the last person I would go to.

I was told he would not sell me one and that he would make sure I would never have one, well sorry Mr Winder but I can get a UK bred pure CsV just about any time I want, I was told this story by another breeder who I bought my dogs from. Politics? However I want something new and off my own back not off the back of another breeder in the UK.
Thank you.
Paul

neither have i ;)

didnt realise kizzy had died tho :(

Sadly she died whelping Csv/wolf F1 pups, about 6 months ago?

I think meeting up is a very good idea. Would I Invite every one? No.

I'm more than willing to help divise a strategy for the csv in the uk. After all, if I'm going to complain publicly as I do about what is wrong, than I should be prepared to put my money where my mouth is and help to make it right.

Taz

This is just what we need so go for it!

Import a dog is not like buy carrots in the market, no good breeder would send a dog for a "breeder" who simply does not care about basic things as bloodlines even if he is his neighbor! Now imagine to another country, to a "far away" place!!!
But you're not only asking for a dog, a pup, but for tested breeding females in breeding age, are you so naive to believe any person would send you a GOOD dog in such conditions?

I will, provided people can actualy stand the thought of having to work with me lol. I doubt I'm on many people's top 10 list right now.

...And I don't even own a csv yet, I must be crazy.

Taz

it's nice to have well kept facilities but that is not the only determinate in creating well bred dogs.. ..... what about raising up the individual bitches so you know their strengths and weaknesses in character, so as to make intelligent choices in mates that'll be compatible?

and in the US the minimum age for OFFA hip scores is 24 months = 2 years old. Is the UK on another system?

Will you really get a breeder licence if you have bred mixes? :shock: :shock: Of what breed(s) breeder are you then???

I find it really humorous, that you, just like Mr Winder and his friends use the same argument over and over again... Some individuals abuse animals, but it doesn't give anybody any right to do so, does it? :?

To tell you the thruth I would be more interested in reading if/how you socialize and train your dogs, what do you do with them apart from letting them run in the enclosed area, play and reproduce. Provided you breed CSV you must probably be checking their working abilities (?) - do you do tracking with them or maybe obedience, defence, dogtracking or agility? Have you ever taken them to any dog schools? Have you passed any exams with them? Which training methods did you find most suitable for your CSVs? What is the temperament of your dogs? Are they friendly to strangers/children/other animals? How do they behave in the streets and public transport? Do they make you laugh? What behavioural problems do you face with them? Etc. etc.
So far, of British owners only Layla has been writing of Tupac and Tassle and happyfeet about their dogs as of family members and friends; others - as of (sorry for the expression) cattle on nice farms :(

Offerring animals you're responsible for decent living conditions and vet care is such basics, that I feel surprised you, just like other pup producers from the UK put so much emphasis on it. Especially, that noone has ever blamed either you or them for not caring about the animals. :|

BTW The breed orignated in former Czechoslovakia and thus where its name comes from, not is Slovenia, Hungary and Austria. :twisted:

My Dog is a happy family member, who is extremely well socialised, but I never shouted it, because to me that is the norm to do with any dog not just CSV, and i may be able to get hold of a function room 1 mile off junction 23 of the m6, near Haydock racecourse if people want to meet up and get started

unless its near a a train station....no chance :(

also...does anyone know if the 'cw' dogs here are from 'suspect' litters?

does anybody anywhere know what are the suspect dogs/litters :cry:?

at the moment the most used is the 'bva' which allows a dog to be 'scored' at a year old(i do not see the rush,and if the bva system is used would prefer the dog to be fully grown)...personally i like the 'penn hip' method but hey lol.

Is there a train station near by? If not some of us may have an issue getting there.

I will probably e able to find somewhere with convenient rail links in my area, provided those of you in the south, don't mind a trip to the epic industrial north lol.

Taz

iv just done a quick google search for the racecourse and had a look at the closest train station, came up with this ...

http://www.haydock-park.co.uk/finding-us

I am not sure whether we should hurry up with that meeting. First, I think, we need to consider who should be in the ‘active group’ .We will not achieve anything good, and will only discredit against KC, if this group will include mixes breeders, or owners of mongrels. I have nothing against mongrels, or their owners, but if the breed is to be recognized by the Kennel Club, it cannot be represented by them. Neither by people who have previously crossed the dogs. KC otherwise will simply LOL on us. The same is true with regard to the future of the CSV in this country. When I say breed, I mean pure breed, so for breeding should be used dog not leaving any doubts about their pedigree. This is just my opinion.

I'm glad to hear it! 8) It's not about shouting, but sharing, or rather who finds what worth sharing :)
It's just a pity that statistically we know least of UK vlcaks as of individuals. I've always wondered why...:?

Brukne, Frei, Misha, Hronec, Rasty, Raksa, Jolly, Tsijki, Jezzi, Imbus, Luna and Pollux, Marcy's, Daniela's dogs and many others are like our good acquaintences, I'm almost sure I'd recognize them if I saw them in the street. While of all Brirish CSV we only know Tupac, well maybe also a bit of Kaya. Don't you find it strange?

Even if some mix producers are not very enthusiastically received here, I'm sure the dogs would always get a warm welcome. 8) Sad, so few UK owners feel like sharing the joy and problems of raising their vlcaks with other owners.

Maybe this is another area worth considering and a good point for starting mutual understanding and cooperation between British/continental owners and breeders?

i agree... and its partly why i asked the 'cw' question.

I would be willing to help in any way I could, but that rules me out.