What I see here is more and more forum members who calmly and continously keep asking French owners/breeders to act rationally and DNA test their dogs with the questioned pedigrees. In return we get loads of hysterical, hostile and arrrogant posts with accusations of the Admin, wd database, self-victimization, etc. etc. A lot of insecurity and aggressiveness can be seen, where rational, calm cooperation could be expected on the part the declared "breed lovers". :(

What do you then propose realistically, Hanka? Because writing that the French Breed Club should function better and the Frenech should bonitate their vlcaks doesn't help solve the problem any further.

Especially, that obligatory bonitation and strong Breed Club did not save Czech breeding from a scandal with breed-mixing and it took honest Czech breeders quite a while to deal with the problem oficially . :( Unofficially it still exists, because the dogs are still bred on, bonitated etc.

And we will soon have twice as many litters from unbonitated parents, as we have now... :roll: But of course, the idea of DNA testing of every litter would be great.

If you think Mutaras, it was "work " of a few people, behind back of all club. Reaction of czech club was quick. These people was kicked out from club goverment. Thanks to members of club. Now is not possible to breed these dogs and their offsprings in countries of origin. It is enough what we need. Breeding in other countries is thing of other clubs in the World. If they do nothing against mixes (not only mutaras)...............:confused2:confused2:confus ed2:confused2:confused2

ah.. in this case czech club DOING nothing, when this not are in CZ republik- "not ours house not ours problem"? I good understand? niice - where did a worts about "only we protect breed, the best breeding plan, we very loove CSV"
but and in CZ are suspicious dogs who have example Galiba blood- who make in this case- or this is old problem,- and breed with this dogs today without problem?

Daiva, you know very well we are NOT garant of breed. = we can do nothing. So we can do things only in Czech- of course.

And what is with Galiba? How you know he has problem?

but why in this case others club and people want work with this problem, but not CZ club- now we heard only this " we not, we not can, why" and moore

Galiba - read forume my dear. And think ..

We have not problem with mixes here. Reason is in hands of clubs of every country. Did your club sent official letter to garant of breed? No? So do it, maybe you will know more.
I write all threads here, don´t worry. But: what is Galiba problem?

yes yes "not ours house not ours problem" :lol:

You send too? I think not. DO you speak with FCI and french club- I think not? do you know concret who is problem? I think not too :lol:

for this Hanka you not have a right speak about "bad others countrys" when self doing nothing.

I say read, if you want have all in silver tray? we not have Galiba child in Lithuania but know moore for you.

Daiva, I need not to send letter to slovak club. Czech club is in contact with them and if we need some info, we ask, it is simply.Everybody can do the same. But when I read your topic, it looks, you need more info. Not me.
I need not to speak with french club. Why yes? I have not question for them.
Why you think, czech club has any problems? You don´t know what we do, you know nothing about czech club. So, please, don´t comment what we do or not....Not everybody must write to WD about every step.
Yes, I read here much about Galiba. But I ask you again: what is his problem? (Easy question)

OK. So I ask again: what do you propose realistically to do, if writing is bad?

Without reliable DNA test results or certified declarations of the fraud witnesses, nothing can be done.:( All (except the owners ;-)) may see the dogs look strange and do not resemble their parents, but since there are no proofs, the French Kennel Club or FCI can do nothing. BTW I don't think there is a rubric on the bonitation card called "resemblence to parents":lol:

Since the dogs that should be tested are in hands of people who do not want or intend to conduct the tests, only hypocritically shout "we want proofs" nothing can be done except writing and warning potential buyers agaist purchasing dogs from certain kennels that have something to hide.
As you could see such economic pressure evoked fits of anger - so it seems more effective than other measures taken :p.

Maybe in this case say this in forum who know I think all people who read this forum want know- or problem this make?
Dear Hanka yes, all who is white are in CZ club - this we know very long, and Vaiva say very corect, speak with you like su plikiu pesiotis.
If you not see problem - you realy are great profesional breeder :lol:

rona, she not antswer. she say all - this not cz club problem and this not interesing for she.

It is easy Rona. Poland club can officialy ask FCI or garant of breed about next steps. (If you need info about it). If poland club does not exist- it is problem. So you can ask like privat person, but I am not sure if you will have answer.
But I will always write the same. Reason is in hands of clubs in every country, if they really want breed wolfdogs and care about breed. If goverment of club does not work, members of club can kick up bad leaders out and make new club goverment, which will like our breed. It is easy. Who can change situations in other countries if not club?

Here on WD you can see photos of possible mixes again and again and write about it. But it is not reason.

Calm down Daiva.:) Hanka's arguments are usually rational and useful and she often has an interesting perspective to problems. I just want to understand her way of reasoning. 8)

I think you see shes way :lol::twisted:

Daiva please,
1- dont write me dear. I am not your dear and you know it.
2- I never wrote problem does not exist
3- I never wrote in Czech is everythin white. We have our own problems. But it is not your problem (But you don´t know czech breeding, so you can´t write "we know very long".)
4-Where I wrote I don´t see problem? (I don´t wait answer)
5- I am not professional breeder, I am amateur breeder. And please, don´t comment my breeding.It is not your problem. I don´t comment your too. So respect it please.
All disscuss on WD forum is sometimes like witch hunting club. I will never in this club. I only write my view to solving. And I will repeat it always. If you have other reason (in moment when you have in hand NOTHING) , you can write it here too. and I promise, I will not attack you and your "team".
I remember time, when WD was nice place for writting about wolfdogs.
So I end writting with you again, because it is about nothing. my first thread was for clubs in other countries, where is problem with possible mix dogs.
If you have question to czech or slovak club, write official question. From czech club you will not be without answer.
If you read here, you could read answer from Sonja. Do you mean, everything will be finished in two days? (I dont wait answer from you)

thanks, you speak very good- i respect this. who know maybe in future we be good friends and breed thogether.;-)

yes without DNA test we not can make next step, but maybe you know in who methods we can begin make this- say who think? maybe CZU laboratory can make this test?

noo this are minimum a few years but are in die point. question why.

realy I think for all people interesing info from your club - can put this? or this info are only for club members why pay a taxes?

Yes, agree... provided the club members and club authorities are not involved in the fraud. :( I hope there are enough honest members in the French Club, who are able to think in terms of the breed interest rather than nepotism, i.e. friendship with unethical beeders. Otherwise the economic pressure remains the only option.;)

Rona, I know a few (in my eyes) good french breeders. So I belive in changes.
Daiva- I have not problem use some your dogs for breeding, if they will have "interest" blood for me. Maybe we have the same idea- to breed wolfdogs "well".
About Prag institut- you must ask Daniela. Not me.
Czech club can cooperate with all clubs from other countries, it is not problem to inform them. On our website you can see contacts, your club can write. Where is problem?
Of course. Some "more detail" info are possible for members of club. It is normal, it is "servis" of club for members.

Rona is right - I am lithuanian- north italian temperament. Hanka forgive me please ;-)

but now I sit in work and think - see this modules
have situation:
one family X buy a dog from this suspicious dogs breeding and bring this to CZ, to LT or PL or others land. We know this not can be pure CSV when are from this dogs. BUT this have FCI pedigree who say " this animal are pure CSV with a pedigree" family go to show, make HD and .. planed breeding. And now who we have- mixing dogs who get to breed in ours country ( LT CZ -PL or others) he have all documents who say" this are pure animal"
who doing in this case?

OK, so I join you in this belief. 8)

French breeders, please don't disppoint us, we trust you ;-)

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).
but belive me, this dog will not be here breeding dog.
But I write my personal meaning. In this moment I don´t write by mouth of my club.
But for future, we can manage possibilities for this case.
But I belive, here are not people who will buy puppy from this or similar breeding.
it is good question, what you can write to my club- if you want. and you will have official answer.

I don't know if it is any help, but here is the scheme and program for AKC DNA testing (using a saliva swab, which doesn't need any special preservation to send in mail).
http://www.akc.org/dna/


Tests can be done in several ways:

1. Voluntary owner submission (mandatory if the dog is imported from another country, AI, multiple sires, frequently used sires, etc.)
http://www.akc.org/dna/certify.cfm

2. Compliance audit program (done with/at cost of AKC). These are random kennel checks, which match DNA against pedigrees. There is a system of penalties for kennels that fail compliance, including fines and suspension:
http://www.akc.org/dna/compliance_audit.cfm

3. There is also a system for complaints of individuals or clubs. If someone makes a complaint, they must place a US$500 deposit (a big fee, but not impossible - about 1-2 weeks salary). If the suspicions are true, they get their money back, and the breeder must pay all costs for DNA tests, fines, etc. If they are false, the person making a complaint does not get their money back (to prevent witch hunts).
http://www.akc.org/dna/complaint_policy.cfm

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

Hi Marcy, thanks for info.So exist more possibilities. Here are some DNA laboratory too, so if we will need some this test, we will ask here too. But in this moment it is not (Thanks God) actuel.

No problem, Hanka. I guess, we don't see it (though I am sure it is in some breeds or instances) as a problem - but rather being proactive, so we don't find ourselves in a big mess in the future, if maybe some club rules change, bad officers or judges come in, etc. Meaning - it's easier to have accurate DNA results for the future if we have more DNA results now, especially on older dogs who may not be here if a problem arises, dogs who have many litters, with maybe some puppies that are sold, and get "lost" - with dogs "related to them" (or not) years down the road. People living in the Czech Rep. and Slovakia are lucky - you have very easy access to some of the aging "legends" of our breed (and their offspring), and also some of the tighter breeding controls within your clubs for our beloved breed. You really have an opportunity - not a problem - to grow gold from an ugly seed - to lead our breed in making sure we have integrity and purity for many generations to come. I feel certain other country clubs will follow if someone is willing to lead (unless they have something to hide, I guess) - the US for sure!

I hope YOU will be leader of US breeding! Or not?

That's a different topic. ;-) But...for my lifetime I hope to influence breeding in the US in every positive way I can. Truth is though...it is the "land of the free". I have no authority to say what dog can breed to what dog, as long as they both have registrations saying they are CSVs from any FCI country (or American born litter). Untypical dogs, mixed dogs with FCI registration, violently aggressive dogs, shy dogs, unhealthy dogs - any with a registration. No questions asked. No parent breed club has been able to change this national rule...AKC wants to make money from every registration it can. AKC even has a rule saying you don't even need the pedigree - only the spoken names of the two parents for an imported dog (to account for native dogs, of say, places like Africa where breed may only be defined by "type" rather than pedigree). After 3 generations, puppies from these breedings receive full registration. Can you imagine how angry you would be if in the future, some AWD breeder in the US, despite our protest, managed to lie and say "Oh, here is a puppy from Ali Reolup and...". And this dog went on to have puppies all bearing precious Ali's name? Maybe even sending puppies back to Europe in the future? It's a dangerous, yet preventable, problem.

Breed clubs do have some influence to ask AKC to close the stud book, hopefully ending this practice, which we will do for sure. But to have DNA to fall back on if a problem did arise would be...priceless.

Hi hi, Marcy, maybe better is don´t write me about situation in US. I will sleep better. :lol:

It's ugly...and scary, for sure.:roll::oops:

My point is though...the CSV is an internationally loved breed now, due in a very large part to the hard work in breed perservation, promotion and advancement from the original founding countries. No country, or honest individual wants to be responsible for ruining it. But some things are beyond the control of breed clubs or individuals maybe (I don't know how it is in France, or Italy). The help of DNA - from as many dogs as possible - is very helpful to solve some problems. I wish...we could all work together. With diplomacy.

yes exactly. but for this mas be and special regulamin, if owner example say- i not want make DNA, you are jelous and stupid for my super nice dog.:lol:
and next- ir this are F1 generation animal we can easer see are his pure or not ( when have a falsh pedigree) can check parents in paper and this anmial - are ok or not DNA. but if this are F2-F3 ( this are too now) his DNA from parents say - yes this "are mama and papa", but not say - yes "his grandpa are falsh". I think Daniela has writen very good dyplom work about this- CSV breeds genome - in who we have a first material for purity test ( when CSV are "purest" breed like a Sarlos in genome.
GalomyOak, yes if we begin make this we have moore and moore info about ours breeds DNA and easer make a markers from line and family.

but he is actuel maybe today not to CZ or LT people but for others dogs. Like I say if dog have mixing in generation back - paternity test not help ( mama x papa).

Je voudrai ête sûre de bien avoir compris le sens réel de votre phrase....
Alors je vais prendre un exemple

Est ce que ce type de test peut définir par exemple que
Rambo et Sibir ont le même père ?
ou que
Rambo et Thalia ont la même mère ?

C'est en tout cas ce que je crois pouvoir comprendre quand je traduits cette phrase :
ils ne font que des séquences de traçabilité qui peut être adaptée aux ancêtres, parents et progéniture

Si c'est bien ainsi qu'il faut comprendre le sens de votre information, je suis prête à avoir recours à ce test supplémentaire....
Pouvez vous me confirmer que j'ai bien compris le sens de votre phrase ?

Old Problem ?????
Que dois je comprendre ? Merci d'être plus précise dans vos affirmations ....

easy antswer- when you forgot who read http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...t=18520&page=4

who know, who know - you not interesing who are in reality? if now speak about testing and posibility this make and WHEN are suspicious dogs ... run away from this posibility bad genetic in this dogs pedigree.

not be angry for this I only read forum and make conclusion

I do not understand the meaning of your response fuzzy

To me "old problem" means a problem that is already old (in time) and which has already been learned in the past ....

I am wondering what "old problem" you speak Galiba citing especially the blood of Galiba .....
???

I explain this in privat - I used translating from lithuanian. Now I think you understand- this are like description situation ;)

DNA testing is highly accurate without the parents. Every DM Dwarfism and dog have tested the DNA in the laboratory:) (They keep all the DNA about 10years)

AKC has never done anything to prove that, I mean just look at how ethical this promotion is from a few years ago:

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o...r-days-akc.jpg

Yes, you reister 10 litters you get the 11th for $1, come on now! They're practically giving away registrations, this proves it's not about the money! Just whelp 10 litters after October 1, 2009 and before the program ended on june 30th, 2010 then you're all set!

.. and tis, a FREE Health Clinic!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o.../akc-hunte.jpg

AKC and the Hunte Corporation aren't doing this for money either! Hunt openly claims that they spend over $160,000 modifying "trucks and trailers" for dog transportation! He also had a special incinerator engineered for his facility!

It's not about the money!

(note: there is a little bit of sarcasm in this post).

The issue is that the larger they get, the greedier they get. Doesn't FCI reciprocate with AKC so if a dog is AKC registered it can get FCI registered? That's VERY scary. We could have registered our collie as a terveurn - maybe we'll register our cat next.

Its up to the breed clubs to teach the public about the dogs and tresponsible breeding, training, and ownership.

"I would like to been sure I have understood the real meaning of your sentence ....
So I'll take an example

Does this type of test can be defined such that
Rambo and Sibir have the same father?
or
Rambo and Thalia have the same mother?

In any case, I think I can understand when I translated this sentence:
they are just sequences of traceability that can be adapted to the ancestors, parents and offspring

If this is the way to understand the meaning of your information, I am ready to make use of this additional test ....
Can you confirm that I understood the meaning of your sentence?"




Je pense que ce serait possible. Dans le cas de Galiba, suis-je raison de voir qu'il est toujours vivant, et vivant en Hongrie? Il aurait aucun problème à envoyer un test génétique pour la Hongrie de l'AKC, si le propriétaire du Galiba serait bien de permettre à l'essai. Avec trois chiens vivant, il doit vraiment y avoir de problème.

Le cas de Mooa, même si elle est morte, serait encore solveable, je crois. Mais, pour être certain à 100%, je vais envoyer un courriel au contact pour le test génétique à l'AKC et poser cette même question.

Mais je pense que la technologie pour tester l'ADN doit être la même en Europe?

Eng:
I think this would be possible. In the case of Galiba, am I correct in seeing that he is still alive, and living in Hungary? It would be no problem to send a genetic test to Hungary from the AKC, if owner of Galiba would be kind to allow the test. With three living dogs, it should really be no problem.

The case of Mooa, even though she is dead, would still be solveable, I believe. But, to be 100% certain, I will email the contact for the genetic test at AKC and ask this same question.

But I think the technology to DNA test must be the same in Europe?

Justement il y a un problème ....J'ai déjà demandé à ce que Galiba soit testé et ni le propriétaire, ni l'éléveuse n'ont donné suite ....
C'est pour celà (l'unique raison) que je pose la question du test entre Sibir et Rambo qui sont sensés avoir le même père GALIBA (donc le même pôle génétique paternel)
Si des tests génétiques peuvent déjà prouver que Galiba est bien le père de Sibir et de Rambo, on aura déjà fait un grand pas en avant ....

Ou de Thalia et Rambo (qui ont la même mère) or Mona est également la grand mère de Sibir ....
S'il était possible de faire des calculs comparatifs, entre les différentes attèles génétiques ...


Non ! et c'est un vrai problème quand on veut faire des test de filiations ....
Par exemple entre l'Italie et la France, les laboratoires ne travaillent pas sur le même nombres de marqueurs génétiques ....
Je suis certaine de ce que j'avance, car les 2 fois où j'ai utilisé un étalon italien, Antagène, n'a pas pu prendre en compte le code génétique du mâle pour valider la filiation ....

Hum... I was interrested... It is my dog's Grand father... :)

Chabo
 

Dear administrator,
I do not know who you are and I don t care , but I do know that you cannot put false information on MY DOG in your database by calling him a saarloosmix.
I kindly request you to remove all information about my dog, Beau Luca Chabo d ' Emozioni Breizh, from your website.
kind regards,
Mevr.Smith

Yes, but are you sure that the Admin do not have info about that the father of your dog " Uzbek Uroz de Louba Tar " is a Saarloos mix :roll: ???

If so... Both the SL and CZ club say ALL offsprings are Mixes to...

Best regards / Mikael

Dear Mikael,
Yes, I am absolutely sure that the admin doesn t have any info on my dog and
I still want the slander been taking of wolfdog.org.
kind regards,

OK, super :)

So you are sure " Uzbek Uroz de Louba Tar " is not a MIX
Maybe you did meet him in real life and maybe you even have photos that can better show the Administration that he is not a Saarloos MIX...

The photo they have now is very bad, so if you have one please add it here on the forum as " add photo " do not work at the mo...

Best regards / Mikael

But we have information about father of your dog - one his sisters has been tested and she is Saarloos mix. Because of it the whole "U" litter of de Louba tar have been marked as Saarloos mixes and it apply to ALL THEIR OFFSPRINGS.