I am sorry for the off topic, but I will save these photos and show them to my dog whenever she feels her life with me is difficult....

What I can find on my search on the internet is that a brown/red color can happen in GSD. Some nice pictures and an easy reading about the genetics you can find in the links below.

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/7week.html
http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.htmlhttp://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html

one thing this are USA GSD not Germany GSD. I special speak with ours breeder about this posibility and they say - not know this type born in pure German blood GSD. USA have others type and who know who blood are in this dogs. Germany GSD have very strong testing and .. strange this type mutation in european GSD litter not hapend. Question why

p.s. I speak about pure GSD who have VS pedigree.
p.s.
http://hauspharao.com/colorgenetics/diagHQ.jpg
this are pure GSD colors. other genetical in pure GSD not can be. but ... in example about atypical color are only USA dogs photo- realy question why this example not can find in european pure GSD with SV pedigree.

We also know that not all breeders are always honest about 'not normal' pups, and sometimes they just disappear as if they never were born... what you can't see in my dogs it's simple not there.

sory but this dog in photo and others example not are typical GSD with pure SV pedigree.
like this brown CSV, why mutation have and sarlos anatomy? not to strange? :roll:
p.s. I speak with this breeder who know all " who hapened in breed" and say all who is who. and I believe in they info, when know they are good breeder who realy love breed and make all for breed goodnes. in this case I not believe in falsh info about GSD with SV pedigree

p.s. this jpg abouyt GSD color are DNA testing result about this, I think if exist atypical color DNA testing mas say this too.

Maybe I'm wrong but if I assume that red may come from GSD than I can also assume that CsV may also show up in blue color, white color, all black color, etc, since all these are colors found in GSDs..... but in my limited experience and knowledge of CsV I have not seen one like this in any gallery or history, and if I saw one today I would also think it was a recent mix..

in CSV are wolfgrey GSD blood - I think we mas see in this color table and try understand who is wolfgrey GSD gens and can this dogs have others gens or not ( if this are like resesive gens in this case grey GSD not can have others color puppy ) I hope i explain who I have in my mind

I think I understand, yes. Do you mean only phenotype sable GSDs were used in foundation?

from this info who we can search - yes wolfgreyh working line GSD - this same GSD now work in army and policie and are grey too ( or black and very smal procent are black and tan like show GSD)

Coat color is an interesting subject, and what I did understand not an easy thing to understand.

There are different genes for coat color and patern, and the mixing of these things do make the color of the coat we actually see on our dog.

There is a gen for the coat color in GSD it is B (black) en b (brown)
B is dominat over b
BB is black
Bb is black
bb is brown

Then there is a patern of the coat, wolfgrey and sable are coat paterns.
This means those genes wil tell where the black/brown color is showing on our dog and that on some parts of the dog the black is not visible.

Then there is a dilution gen......
When you coat color is black geneticly it wil show on the dog as a blue color.
When your coat color is brown geneticly it wil show on the dog as a lighter version liver?

Maybe someone here can tell us more about this thing coat color, as i find it very hard stuff to deal with. And there can always be a spontanious mutation of a gen...... like the Panda german shepherd.

GSD are a, at, aw, as, A
like are in books aw x aw born only aw - wolf grey
A are only teorical black when in dogs are a black dogs
a x a - all black
aw x a - wolfgrey
at x as - black and tan

this are color genetic who not change anatomy, ( bones, head type and moore)

p.s. Your dog can realy help to DNA testing in this case

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?

I'm just wondering, because this does not necessarely have to be the case.

If there is any inbreeding (like in this case there is), then it does not need more than one individual to introduce a new trait (recessive gene) into the lineage/breed. Because due to inbreeding, this one individual may end up appearing in both parent's sides in the pedigree. -And in such situation, the chances are that some day in some certain pairing the recessive gene gets doubled, and so it appears in the phenotype of some offspring.

Of course there CAN be more than one "oopsie daisy" (a mix up by accident or on purpose) taken place.
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

Recessive traits may jump over several generations unnoticed, and it may take time before (due to the chances of random selection of the genes) some day some certain individual will inherit two copies of this recessive gene, that once came from possibly only one certain anchestor who passed it forward over several generations.

I guess it's a quite important problem to worry about "what others will think about", analizing all this topic, the easier and cheaper way to discover if the dogs are mixes of this saarloos or not, would be asking the DNA of Dvorak and making the comparison.
We all prefer not mix CzW problems with other breeds, but seems like in this case, other breeds are getting mixed in CzW breed without we know about, and it could be simply tragic.
We only need to know if there were more Saarloos living there than Dvorak itself.

CSV GSD origin

That is true. On the other hand, if you look at pedigree of Thalia, you see that her parents are dogs from pure Slovak lines - I mean Fallko being born 11 years ago and Mona 13 years ago - I just don't believe there could be crossing with Saarloos in Slovakia that long ago, and for sure not by "oopsy-daisy" accident. I would like to believe it would be impossible even today, but of course that is naivity, but 11-13 years ago? When was the first Saarloos visiting Slovakia? When was the first Saarloos imported here? In year 1998, when Mona z Krotkovskeho dvora was born, the Csechoslovak Wolfdog was finally accepted as regular FCI breed. It was a huge success for slovak breeders. I just cannot imagine, why would anyone, at that time, mix with the "competition", even if they would have access.

Recessive gene, that would be shown by puppies of Sibir and Thalia (and nowhere else!) could be introduced by either Fallko, or Mona, because they are the common relatives. Or by mixing, and declaring false parents, but if we do not accept the possibility, that Fallko or Mona were mixes, then the mixing would have had to occur twice at least, once for Thalia and once for Sibir or one of his parents.

i think antswer are in photo from this kennel - boxes and fences and dogs lives in this boxes. can hapened all whehn female live in this type kennel.

and .. very easy make pedigree for falsh dogs when not mas have DNA testing in puppy but .. genetic not lie - we can see diferent in anatomy not only in color.

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ some explanation about coat colors

I was talking to another Vlcak owner and I wondered the same thing, if all the males always live separate and all the females are kept in entire separate enclosure, otherwise how can someone prevent unwanted pairing especially if they do not live with the dogs? :confused2

Citation from the webpage: "Amber eyes usually occur when the eumelanin in the coat is diluted or modified by the recessive genes in the B or D series. In other words, all liver dogs (bb) have amber eyes, and so do blue and isabella dogs (dd). Occasionally dogs with black pigment also have amber eyes, but in general they're found just on livers and dilutes.
Amber eyes vary from light brown (overlapping with the lighter eyes sometimes found in black-pigmented dogs) to yellow, yellow-green or grey."

Well, although their information is not wrong (hopefully), it is quite incomplete, so it needs to be taken accordingly.

Otherwise thanks for the link, it is interesting read.

A simple color mutation would not change the dog tipicity, you all would be able to recognize them as czechoslovakian wolfdog because they would be typical dogs according to the standard.
Even by such simple photo we can have an idea that the skull proportions are wrong! And not only that, if we look at the pups of the mentioned litters we all will see that the dogs are weird according to the standard, ones more, others less.
Lets forget about the nice history of a possible mutation and get real about a possible accident envolving mixes.
It also kick out the possibility of an pedigree analysis, we only can guess where this saarloos (or other) entered.
There is an unknown dog (or more) at these pedigrees which we dont know when entered and how, the COI and everything else will be wrong.

After several emails I received last time and taking into consideration the behavioral of the mentioned breeder and her lack of any will to cooperation by clearing this case I must suggest that we have here to do not with an mutation but with intentional mixes.

I received information that by Crying Wolf appeared two litters which show many characteristics typical for Saarloos + overgrown sizes. It is strange that nobody was suprised (even in the origin countries) that by kennel where dogs hardly reach the minimum size unexpectedly appeared litters where females are even bigger than the Czech lines - usually about 68cm. A MIRACLE? Only children can believe it it.

Examples:
females with 68cm:
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/9/...09-2792661.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2008/10...56-4209448.jpg
http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2011/5/...05-9902979.jpg
and typical weak Saarloos expresion

It seems that "affected" are not only suggested litters of T-Crying wolf and S-Crying Wolf but also V-Crying Wolf and Y-Crying Wolf. And their offsprings.

We ask for help to clear this problem. The breeder do not want to cooperate (no wonder if she knews what she is doing). The Hungarian Kennel is also not a big help: it was already proven by the problems with export pedigrees and another issues connected with Crying Wolf kennel.

WE ask for help the Slovak club and some of the suspiciurs animals are living also there and there was at last one litter of one the the "Saarloos" females.

These photos show clearly that it is indeed not only a different colour but they are mixes !
From the beginning of the discussion here it was all time much more probably that a mixing had taken place.

Just what nebulosa, wolfin , me and others had already strongly supposed before....

In spite of this it´s not very pleasant news .

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

:( very sad for the breed and even sadder for the breed in England if the 'crying wolf' imports are related to these 'mixes', as they were meant to bring 'new blood' into the country :(

So is it only these 4 litters that are suspect? There was talk of Galiba being suspect too, I think, or was he the dog reported on the pedigree to be the father of a litter when it is suspected he is not?? I am worried as he is sibling to Gaia who appears in our girl's pedigree :( - where will it all end and where does it leave the breed? Not good news for the people who have bought and bred offspring of these dogs in the belief they had pure bred CsV's.

I do not see any reason to import a puppy from a farm-like kennel like Crying wolf - well, maybe when the only reason is a breeder, who agrees to sell with no questioning. There are a lot of kennels with much more worth "new bloods"... :roll:
Do you have many crying wolf dogs in your country?

I saw seen never twh with so weak red color and perhaps also still red nose… that is strange
Saarloos crossing is not good for TWH - it is the beginning of the end

The list of suspected mix breed Cs Vlcaks are growing rapidly, I did send a e-mail to the FCI in 2009 but nothing did happen, they did not even care to respond, I think ALL breeders need to act on this at the same time, if ALL serious breeders sign a letter demanding FCI to act, it will be very hard for them not to, off course we also need SL and CZ club + other big clubs to support this... As it is now nothing is happening and the list of suspected mixes are growing longer and longer by the day.
Best regards / Mikael

Why stop at breeders - surely a petition signed by all owners who care about the breed would be as, if not more, powerful... All that is needed is for someone (or a club) to draw up a letter and post it for people to sign (is there anyone who is considered 'senior' in the breeders, they would be a good person to draw up the letter and have it translated into all languages)

I am responding not only on the topic of Issar Kollarov dvor’s paternity but on paternity dispute in general. We all know well that only DNA tests compulsory in all countries can solve the situation finally. False data on parents can impact all breeders and owners. Financial issue is complicated, but solvable. I assume that it should be organised officially on breeders’ clubs or superior organisations (if there is no CSW club in a particular country yet) level.
At present, Issar Kollarov dvor really is in Crying Wolf kennel but I am still his owner. Mating Issar x Flash CW (litter Y CW) happened when Issar was still at my place and when I was present there.
Slovak CSW club asked me for co-operation in this particular case yesterday, therefore I will provide the Slovak club with potential information. I will deal with the situation in close contact with Edit Molnar, of course.
However, the whole CSW community should realise that accusing any particular breeder on any forum and asking for DNA test that way we will never achieve anything. Doing a DNA test is just the step A, we have to think about consequent steps as well. In cases of particular DNA tests carried out BEFORE introducing compulsory tests in all countries it will be inevitable to answer many questions, such as:

Who is eligible to ask for a test?
Provided the owner/breeder agrees to do the test, who covers the test and related costs?
What happens if the test confirms the parents data being false?

Well, at least in Lithuania it works like this:
If there is a serious possibility (accusation with arguments), that parents of a litter might be others than written in pedigree, Lithuanian Cynological society has a right to ask the breeder for DNA tests. If the answer shows, that the parents are REALLY the ones, that are written in pedigree, the Cynological society pays for the tests. If DNA shows, that breeder was cheating, he/she pays for it. I am sure there is a way to "cancel" the legitimacy of the pedigrees of the litter - just to put a stamp "not for breeding" :roll:

This weekend had unofficial conversation with the authorities of Lithuanian Cynological society about a cases of mixes in some countries. In their opinion, kennel clubs of these countries should be really interested in cases like de la louve blanche kennel's :roll: Such facts make bad impact for the reputation of all the breeders in that country, so I guess there is only one way - informing the kennel clubs of sertain countries about cheating with pedigrees.

Could somebody knowlegeable explain what it means exactly that Kennel Club of a particular country is responsible for a particular breed? I imagine the KC must keep and guard the original herd books and approve any changes in the breed standard. But are there any other international/legal rights and obligations connected with being the "breed-guard"?

Kennel club (the main one, like Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce in Poland) gives dogs their pedigrees and put their name on them - so they should be very interested in using the name of their organisation on some faked pedigrees.

It's logical what you write and I fully agree... But my question was what legal rights and obligations would Związek Kynologiczny w Polsce have if some foreign breeder(s) tried to fake pedigrees of Polish national breeds litters, e.g. of Polish hound or Tatra sheepdog...:? Would the Polish KC have any authority and 'legal space' to act in such situations or would everything depend on the KC of the country where the fraud took place?

I'm not mentioning particular breed clubs, because I assume they should in principle cooperate closely with their national kennel club, which affiliate directly with FCI (?)

I need some clarification on this - the "Y" litter, as in Yolka? This is Pollux's mother and this is very important to me.

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7930

Other than suspicions, is there any proof that other breeds were mixed into her lines (other than the initial project back in the 1950's)?

Pollux is a wonderful dog in looks (he's drop dead gorgeous!) but as you mentioned, he is a little large and we always assumed his temperament is a result of his upbringing (a lot of neglect). (Too bad, too, because if we could get around the skittishness then he would be awesom for acting!)

If it tuns out that he is a Saarloos mix we will make sure he isn't used in any breeding program here in the USA.

From what I've heard in the past DNA tests are not that relaible, mixes show up as pure and vice versa. How can we check?

As for "red" - this is *very* common in GSDs especially in German lines, our Kiri is VERY red and if the genes were in the initial projct then there is a good chance that they could still be in some lines, just hidden especially if red is recessive.

I think there is a full litter mate / sibling to Pollux here in the USA also (San Diego, perhaps?) I think either Marcy or Pete knows them. If it turns out Yolka is a mix then we'll need to track these people down and let them know.

Added: We may DNA test Pollux (Lunas Mom and I are discussing it now).

Under the AKC in the USA, persons can submit information and evidence of falsifying pedigree and/or "hanging" papers - meaning that the registration papers are real, but meant for another litter or perhaps extra registrations from another litter were used on a false litter- to the AKC investigations board.. they can and will request DNA and I assume pay for this testing.

If the tests confirm the parents data being false, the AKC has, and continues to, issue suspensions to the breeders/kennel of all privileges, this includes registering new litters, transferring existing dogs (no papers will be provided for this), showing dogs, etc etc. The suspensions can last anything from a few weeks to even 10 years or even a life-time suspension, depending on severity, intent, etc. Also, such a suspension often accompanies fines in the thousands of USD.

Furthermore, falsified litters do have their pedigree and registrations revoked and removed from the stud books. Finally, the AKC can make reinstatement after suspension of privileges contingent upon the kennel starting out with all new breed stock from known lines and pedigrees.

Here is an example of the announced suspensions during one board meeting (starting from around the middle of the page):

http://www.akc.org/about/board_minutes/2002/1002.cfm

Are you talking about the DNA tests that attempt to match clusters of DNA to 'general' clusters of DNA in known breeds, thereby giving a 'breed guess' on dogs of unknown heritage? Those tests are unreliable.

However the tests described here aren't of that type. The point is to get DNA from the supposed parents and match (or unmatch) DNA from the litter or other relatives. These DNA tests are the same that are used in courts and are considered near infallible barring taking DNA from false parents to begin with.

So it looks like we may be hitting a dead end if both kennels (CW and the Hungarian kennel where the "Y" litter was bred) are not cooperating (it sounds like nether is willing to subit dogs to a DNA test). It doesn't sound like the suspicion are from Yolka's mother (Flash) but more towards her father, Issar (if he is the father?). It sounds to me that Flash was sent to that kennel to be bred so I don't think CW actually witnessed the breeding.

I'm open to suggestions to see if we can get him tested and confirmed.

Draggar, I think if we cannot trust Sonya, than we can trust nobody, including ourselves.

But does this preclude a double-covering if the timing was right?

only one - question - was this female ALL time per shes heat in Sonja house or not? if a little read about ovulation - female in this same heat can mate with moore males whenh shes ovulation are longer like one day.
but realy reproductor owner all time want a DNA test and have later easy antswer who is who.

I'm not sure where this comment is going - I'm assuming that you're saying the breeding took place at where you are (and not that someone else was claiming to use a stud that was in your posession?) and that you (for the lack of a better phrase) managed the actual mating (you were there, made sure everything went OK, etc..)?

My concern is that Pollux (Yolka's son) exhibits some Saarloos behavior - I've never denied that he's large or rather skittish. We never attributed his size to anything and thought his temeprament was from enviroment and not genetic. Genetics (especially recessive genetics) tend to pop up in grandchildren which is what Pollux would be to the sire in question (Issar).

We have to Yolka children in this country (both from the P litter) and if there is mix in there we'd need to know quickly before they're in the gene pool here in the USA - it would be devastating to the breed if we have to take many dogs out of the breeding pool ~10 years from now because of this. Our gene pool here is already very small and I'm sure people can understand the concern that I have over this.

It wasn't a matter of trust, I just missed her post. :(

Well, you/your wife are in control of Pollux and I don't know if Partha's owner is planning to breed her. It's pretty controllable at this point.. if in doubt, just don't breed them at all?

Technically we're not in complete controll, his "owner" still has full control but I'm sure my wife's opinions and suggestions will carry some weight. It'll be sad if he is a mix, he does have some good qualities (he's goofy in the house, he's very good looking, he does well out on the schutzhund field, I'm sure he'll be a good tracker, etc), he's also starting to be protective of the house, etc.

I'm also trying to make sure I have the right person who owns Partha before I start to talk to them.

While 68 cm is very unusual and certainly I think there are some other untypical features from the Y litter, I guess it's not totally impossible to believe Issar's genetics could have contributed to the height. These dogs, also coming from the lines of Ada Kollorav Dvor, also had unusually (at least to me) tall height:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7446
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9857
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5187
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1919
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1339

And one more :lol:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7663

Yes, they seem to be tall, but height in cases, mentioned before, is not the only feature...

She is pretty tall indeed!:p
But I don't understand what is wrong about the higher height since there is no limitation in the standard regarding the maximum height?:confused2

She is 0,5cm smaller in fact :D And she suits in our bed at our feet just fine :) And she can only lick my face only when I bend my head down a little - and I am about middle height :D

In this forum it was said that height can also be a sign of a Saarlos mix - together with other features.

If I understand correctly, it's puzzling because the bitches in many of CWs breedings barely make the minimum height requirement, and then suddenly there are very tall females from the same lines..

statistic say all :)
CSV are breed who size are this :
male about 67-68 cm female about 62-63 cm
this size have almost 80 % ( maybe and moore this better can say elf) dogs in this breed and this size are typical, yes are biger and smaler dogs, but we not can say "CSV are 74 cm size breed" when in statistic this size dogs born have very smal %

sarlos are others - they are biger in standart and biger dogs born in % too.

Hi Marcy,
you can 100% belive Afaia,Bonifác, Hagga , Farry and Citka are 100% pure czech. wolfdogs. This size is standart size.

yes this CSV are PURE CSV :) like I say - medium size in statistic are about 63-68 cm but can born and smaler and biger dog too.
p.s. but one thing - in FCI standart when read moore ( not only about CSV but others too) size are about 5 cm diferent for male and female
like example if male are 60-65 cm female be 55-60 cm

Hello,

I know Yolka and I know several Saarlos-Mixes, she doesn´t look like one and she doesn´t behave like one. I know for sure that Juri mated Yolka and that she was seperated from other males at this time. The behaviour you decribe from Pollux is pretty common in CSW with his history. A history that started with an 38 hours oversea flight and changing place in a sensible period several times. Saarlos by the way are useless in Schutzhund, not really protectiv and I have never seen one track.

Juri is 72 cm of high, Lorenz Farouk Arimminum is 70 cm, and our bitches tend to produce males with the lowest high of 68 cm till now, they are all big.
If you need an DNA-Test I am very sure that Mariana the owner of Juri will make one for you and I am also pretty sure that Edit will let one have done in for example the Vet Clinik in Budapest if you request one.

So I think it is time to calm down a little bit. I have seen some of the questionable dogs of the Louve de la Louve Blanche kennel and also would be more than interested in an OFFICIAL DNA test, I also would think DNA profiles would be a good thing in general, but I personally don´t think Crying wolf has been involved in this. If they are mixes parents have been exchanged in France, not in Hungary. Size is no proof for mixes, a total change of look in sibblings of different litters or nordic wolf faces or changes in colour is.

Regards
Ina

To be honest I find it rather strange not to trust Sonjas words, I know you know her quite well, we both know that she will not give a statement like this if she wouldn´t be sure.
At this point we maybe should stop and think a little bit about what we are hopping on here. A virtual person has thrown in an idea basing on some photos. looking especially on the photo with the weak Saarlos impression I had to grin, I know one Czech female - of her origin I have no doubt at all - that looks exacly the same, apart from a totally untypical head.

Ina

Thanks Ina!

I am very disappointed and sad - to read something here. I'll still take a DNA test-TODAY!!!
And all other tests which we need for the future Juris' children. And to support the work from some few peoples in in the different clubs - and to support the healthy development and future of OUR Dogs.
lg Mariana

Well I start to feel a bit sorry to run this topic because there are a lot of deviations written here, let me remind the context:

- the french breeder has 3 red puppies born (she was in the past Saarloos breeder so know very well the topic), she asked help from Edit which refuse everything and at a meeting in Italy even pretended not to know the french breeder.

The french breeder has a part of his kennel ruined because cannot trust anymore on the line choosen (she could also play blind, but did not, you know if such symtomatic event cannot be cleared all we will gain is breeders worldwide will be conforted playing blind next time), it is not fair and this thread is the reaction. We all know that high level regulation would solve a lot, I guess we all know that this will never happened anytime soon or even happend one day, so we need to find out what's going on case by case with the little ways we have left.

:ylsuper This is a reaction one would expect from an honest breeder/rep owner who cares about "their" pups welfare and the breed in general. Should all have similar attitude there would be no reason to continue useless conversations and unnecessary arguments...

Give me a Saarloos and my club could have him taking bites on a sleeve in 3 months. :)

We are also working hard to get his true temeprament out, we've seen peeks of the CsV he could be. Yes, his trip here was far from optimal and I'm sure it scarred him.

Yes Mariana this is very good detision like reproductors owner. Not worts but DNA test proofe who is who.
and regards to Juri :) from my

Yes!!!
very important and I hope is more to follow...


Today I have ordered Laborklin to create a DNA profile of Juri. Also for the future Juri's (Zlata Palz) blood is stored at laborklin and it is available for more test requests and - or - direct comparisons of his "children" ect....! Now DNA profile from Juri takes about 2-4 weeks.


thanks and best greetings back from - juri sunshine:)

Thaaanks :) We in Lithuania too have DNA tested dogs, and I think in next litter I make DNA profile for male too ( pay self) for futuring DNA profile in pedigree for puppy. Realy great idea breed CSV with DNA profile, this not very big cost but, like see situation who have now, very help for making pure CSV gens maps.

I wonder if something like this is available in the USA?

Yes, it's available from OFFA/AKC, and is mandatory before you register a litter from imported parent(s), or a foreign sire/AI.

It sounds like you're saying AKC has actually done something ethical. :)

Will AKC do it with dogs who aren't from import parents? I'm wondering if we should store the DNA of our dogs here too incase something pops up?

Absolutely. In either case, the owner pays for it (around US$50-60, as I recall). I think it is VERY important, given the number of American wolfdogs here, and the propensity of some people to exploit dogs/wolves/our breed for their own personal gain. The big downfall to this is the DNA tests are done by the owner, at home, and submitted by mail. :(

They really need to make it like how FAVN rabies titers are done for travel.... by a USDA licensed vet, on permanently ID'd animals, and approved/signed off on by the USDA chief vet of each state. Otherwise there's still just the opportunity that DNA is simply taken from wrong animals to begin with. :|

Hi,

if you're talking about Saarloos mixes have a look what CSW:evil_lol won the show in this Finnish town on June 19th...

Michael

:sooo_hapyEd, you did absolutly newer meet a Saarloos :lol:

This is a Saarloos doing Schutzhund :evil_2....:bolt

Best regards / Mikael

Can you put up a link to it :| ???

Best regards / Mikael

OT
Great!!!great idea - dogs tested DM - DNA detection original package TWH.
And only those dogs may have this name CSV.
My Dream...

heh people... better look here - euro winner
:o:o:o

That all depends on the helper, the trainers, and the handler. :)

How is the Saarloos' brain? Are they very smart?

and the dog...

Wow interesting CsV :-/

I want to clarify that for me, the only thing that mattered was whether the father was well Galiba Sibir ..... or not ...(?).
1) I proposed to Molnar Edit to get around Hungary with my vet for a blood test of an official nature ....
2) I also proposed to take charge of my office (both for the journey, the compensation for my vet who has lost 48 hours to make the trip, rather than in his clinic and then DNA testing)
In vain ....

If I had an agreement, either the breeder or the owner, at present, many questions are already resolved

Both for my breeder, as for many others, who have daughters or son of Galiba and that could, in turn, make checks parentage

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Je tiens à préciser que pour ma part, la seule chose qui m'importait c'était de savoir si Galiba étai bien le père de Sibir ou pas ....

J'ai proposé à Edit Molnar de me déplacer en Hongrie, avec mon vétérinaire pour faire une prise de sang à caractère officiel....
J'ai proposé également de prendre les frais à ma charge (aussi bien pour le trajet, le défraiement de mon vétérinaire qui aurait perdu 48h à faire le voyage, au lieu d'être dans sa clinique et ensuite les tests ADN )

En vain ....

Si j'avais eu un accord, soit de l'éleveuse, soit du propriétaire, à l'heure actuelle, beaucoup de questions seraient déjà résolues
Aussi bien pour mon élevage que pour beaucoup d'autres, qui ont des filles ou fils de Galiba et qui auraient pu, à leur tour, faire des controles de filiation ...

I can tell you that you will not be able to work with a typical saarloos. It might bite on a sleeve on your arm as in play, but than he won't even bite sufficient. Its nature is simply against it, is will to flee overcomes his will to attack!

Euro Winner... Ho was the judge :p ???

Best regards / Mikael

What's the proof? I'm only asking because we have Pollux, one of Yolka's sons. Size, color, and temperament contribute to suspicion but no proof.

The only evidence I see here right now was in post #130:


Sona said that Issar was with them at the time of the breeding but it's unclear if that means that they had the breeding at their location (and witnessed it) or that Issar was with them while the breeding allegedly happened somewhere else.

The first scenareo would help justify that Yolka is pure but the second would prove that the pedigree isn't accurate.

I asked for clarification but I haven't heard back.

Yes, that's true. The problem with Crying wolf kennel is that it lost totally its credibility. The lack of will for cooperation makes it more and more suspicious. It is the reason for more and more accusations I receive. The facts are - different look, different characters and bigger sizes of the dogs. Nut it can be still explicable.
What is not explicable are the puppies of Yarl Yanatos Crying Wolf looking for example like a husky-GSD-mix:
http://dl.wolfdog.org/pics/dbase/Elb..._de_Faujus.jpg
It is a mutt for sure - we have to find out where is the problem for such untypical puppies.

It is also my question - if Flash was by Sonia for the whole time of heat the problem is solved. If she was only covered by Issar and the Crying Wolf breeder took Flash back to her kennel - I have my doubts. The cages by CW seems to be in a very bad condition. I'm sure it is very easy for Wolfdogs to break out.

Or: maybe it is not the problem of mating of Issar and Flash but exactly in Flash - as Sibir (the father of "red CsW") is also her son?

I really have no idea- Something seems to be wrong - I hope it will be cleared and the problem will be solved.

L’éleveur d'ou provient ce chien fait aussi des berger blanc suisse et a déjà eu des accident de portée entre les deux races. Moi je pense plus a un accident avec un berger blanc plutôt que le fait que Yanatos soit un mix.
http://www.wolfdog.org/fra/dbase/o3394.html

Mais c'est tellement plus facile pour vous de dire que Edit et Frank font des mix que de vous poser les bonnes questions. Mais bon on peut ce demander si vous voulez vous poser les bonnes questions ou bien discréditer tout simplement les élevage qui vous dérange.

So Sonia / Sona is the kennel where Issar and Flash were bred?

I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

You think is bad photo. you must see video: http://tv2.hu/aktiv/video/kutya-pozb...osebb-modellek is from cryinf wolf kennel puppy mill. see cages. horrible. every case with many wolfdogs. in database i see 42 dogs in crying wolf but on video i count much more. and many other breeds.
i very much sorry for dogs from this kennel. in europe must be no place for such terrible places. it is must worst than dog shelter i see in my life. i know tghe woman run her dirty bussines but i can not imagine that people buy puppies in such places. it is cruel to animals

Really, I don't even know you or have anything against you, but when you write things like this I really have to wonder why you must use such assumptions and superlatives. I highly doubt that the "whole future" of American lined CsVs are "at stake" because of one imported dog which is not even yours to make breeding decisions with.

Pollux is a very good looking dog to you, which is normal of every co/owner to think their dog looks very good.. but why even think about possibly breeding him or his possible influence on the future when dogs without temperament issues can be imported? Those without questions of pedigree or coming from such an uncooperative kennel. His blood isn't especially rare. Why not just enjoy him as a happy pet, or find him a nice pet home if you're rehoming him, and be happy with that?

PS. It's ridiculous to say that fathers' temperament matters less than mothers'.

for me look like husky only

The problem is solved by testing the DNA for four generations or more To All litters and if there is mixed dogs. Breeder will pay if the dogs can be found mixed.

Breeder who have litters all a time can´t have money problems.

We would like to offer you our help financially or by creating a connection with the MEOE.
MEOE is the abbriviation for Hungarian Kennel Club (of course, in Hungarian language).

The gene pool in the USA is so small that every dog that is considered for breeding has the potential to have a large impact down the line.

Its also not just one dog, Pollux's sister (Partha) is in the USA also plus there are people in Mexico who have quite a few Crying Wolf dogs, maybe in Canada, too.

As for Pollux's temperament, the issues are environmental. He had a horrible trip here to the USA when he was very young (fear period?). Add on the severe neglect he got when he came here (he was kept in an outdoor kennel most of the time). I've seen the "real" Pollux come out and he's a great dog.

As for the mother / father temperament thing, it is safe to say a puppy's temperament is 50% genetic and 50% environmental. The genetic part is easy, statistically 25% will be from the mother and 25% will be from the father. Now, what about the environment? Who raises the puppies from the minute they are born? The mother. You can take a pretty good guess that close to 100% of the environmental temperament will be from the mother. I've seen mother / puppy training at work and when you whelp a litter of puppies you can see the genetic come out in the first day or two but over time a good mother will work with them, you rarely see the father work with the puppies because most of the time they are not from the same breeder as where the puppies were whelped.

As for Pollux being a breeding stud, that's still up in the air. This thread has made us seriously reconsider it (actually more than that, we're pretty much on the "no" side now). But, there are many other factors, hips, elbows, also the DM consideration, etc.

SUPER !!! :)

Can you tell us more about how you can help ???

Very best regards / Mikael

So Admin, what is the next step?

- Are you going to stick a 'MIX' on these litters?

- Are you going to tell every'one :
till the case will be solved please do not buy any puppies from hungria from the mentioned kennels or kennel which base on dogs coming from the producers.

I do not think he has to write that people are to be very cautious when buying dogs from this kennel for more than one reason ;)

But please tell us Jet, are you defending false pedigree´s and / or MIX breeding or do you want to try to stop it ???

And if you want to stop it, please tell us how to do it... If (we) can not tell it here and the mixing gets bigger fore every year, how can we ever stop it :? ???

Regards / Mikael

I just want to hope the same rules are used for every one here.

So long we are speaking about 'la louve Blanche', this subject only concern Frank and owners of his litters. Outside that, we only can give opinions, helps, but nothing else usefull.

But Still I am french, with kinds relations with some breeders inside my country (Indiananous, Sherdor, et much more...) I think Wolfdog members, all around the world, have to be all eyes with these problems, without denigrate France. It is not the way.

Another problem is that there is very friendly people who bought puppies from la Louve Blanche. It is very hard to not stand together with them. Some of them are hurted by these stories. But You are right, me too, I must keep the right way.

I think it is easier for the admin to try to eliminate the louve blanche problem. Just a few dogs in Europe. The Crying wolf litters is a very bigger problem... How many dogs are coming from S/T/Y/V lines? A few hundred? thousand of puppies? In every country???

As we are always expecting wich AWD dog, with proofs (Admin just said he is 100% sure, really not enough for us), is in La louve blanche's breeds, you have a picture of a Saarloos mâle in the Crying Kennel, just at the born time. I see your investigation on it, but it seems to be less belligerent.

Be sure Mikael, my voice is just a hope of fairy justice... :)

I will mark with !!!!_!___!!! litters and offsprings of Sybir and Thalia (and all dogs from their litters) till the same will be explained.
But when we talk about the whole kennel: it is the same the case as the case of the French kennel - the credibility of this kennel is also missing at the moment. It seems that some dogs can be mixes. And that the breeder knew it very well. The question is: which dogs and litters are "affected". Mixing with Saarloos can give "strange" looking dogs but also puppies which seems normal and first they offspring will show characteristics typical for Saarloos (example: "normal" Sibir and first his offspring are "Saarloos alike").

Look, I really understand your position. Even more because there are many breeders and owners from France who are trying to help and offered their help. Even of some their dogs can be "affected". I know also that many buyers of puppies from the de la Louve blanche kennel had no idea that the dogs are crosses.
But it is why the problem has been made public and why it must be stopped and cleared as fast as possible - we do not want simply more people who has been cheated by insincere breeders.

Hello Jet,

I trying to understand your point of view. I am just a simple owner, but if I brought a dog, later someone has some evidence or suspicion that my breeder is using mixes, or that my dog itself was a mix, I would try my best to find out the truth, not stand blindly by my breeder. Because really, if I paid a lot of money and believed I got a purebred dog, and got a mixed dog instead, I wouldn't love my dog less but I would be upset at the breeder for lying.

Of course, it might be different if I was a breeder and now my investment was 'wasted'..

I don't know how it is in France but here in Finland the Kennel Club rules are that if a dog is later found to be a mix instead of pure bred (and so looses it's registration) the breeder is obligated to refund the total price for the buyers.

Well, in many countries the same could be done by signing a contract. They can differ in many ways,but still usually breeder states that he or she is selling a purebreed dog.

Write what would you want, and we'll help you.

A lot of us, and me at all, falled in love with CSV because we were half-wolf lovers when we were young.

I m 47. I red Jack London, James Oliver Curwood, when i was 14.

My first dog was a 'Beauceron' (Berger de Beauce). It was a Sheepdog with FCI pedigree. This race of dog, is Black and fire, large, robust and rustic as the CSV, but definitly a dog. When he was my best friend, 5 yers ago, i discovered CSV on the web, I really falled in love : so magesty, beauty, wild, and... a dog!!!

When my beauceron died.. Only Pain. And after a long period of mourning, i bought my CSV.

This story is just to explain you that a lot of CSV lovers are just wolf-dog lovers. The paper, the pedigree, the breeder, is just a first good way to find our first Wolfdog. I hope there is the same stories all around the world.

Owners of MLS, of the louve blanche are friendly on this forum, or on others french CSV forums. They love their dog. They also have very good relationship with breeders, who don't let them alone with this crocodile (uhuh, a young CSV is sometimes (always??? :p) who waste every shoes, every bag, every everything!!! :)

are they in pain that their lovely dog is not pure? I m not sure... these dogs are beautifull, as their dreams were singing all night long around their eyes. these breeders are friendly with them, the community also.
No, they are not looking for that war.

A lot of theses owners, a lot of these owners will never breed. So you cannot ask them to stop things that thy are not concerned.

If I post there, it is first beacause i like to exchange my passion with other people, and also to say they are not responsible persons.

Sure you re right, the only Way is a french kennel club action : but the CBEI get no power. So only the FCI can make the rules. A war between breeders is not a solution, there is already in France rivals clans, hate, these lovely things between human beings... :)

Imagine in France, i cannot take my dog for a walk with all CSV fans in my region because some of them have bad memories together, often about these subject of breeding.

I tell you... Nothing is shining in this world, so think first to the dog.

Sorry to have disturb the Red CSV colored post, i just wanted to explain it is very hard to try to help you, to help Lorry in this Quest, with that french context.

Jet, I'm not saying this to be contrary or mean to you, but if this is true, would not a random wolf-dog mix be absolutely fine for this parameter? Something like random American wolf dog mix.

Of course I hope this is not true.. that people will buy a CsV not only because of romantic notions of wolves but also because they want a dog which will grow, develop, and act the way that is predictable to the CsV.

For this it is important for some, I hope most, that CsVs remain a purebred dog.



And that's fine, just don't call random mixes Czechoslovakian Vlcaks because they are not ..not that it's better or worse, just that it is not.

Leave the CsV breed to people who want not just any wolfdog but also a wolfdog coming from the history of CsV, which mixes with false papers are destroying.


Unfortunately enough do take products of mixes and breed them, such that they influence many other dog's pedigree. If others aren't concerned with the breed, just that they have a wolfdog, then it should be fine for them that their dog is not recognized as a Czechoslovakian Vlcak, to have their dog removed from registration and studbook.

Well, if some action was attempted, maybe it would be justified to say that CBEI has no power, all efforts failed. Has some action been made?