As plausible, there are several research groups are studying the thing that does not take any responsibility to make assumptions like that. Scientifically still speaking about a " Unkonow trigger" If i'm well informed, the DNA of both brothers are at one of these research bodies, leave to speculate where it is due. Speculating on these assumptions is the best ground where they sprout the witch-hunts.

We are going to have our girl tested for DM soon - are there other tests we should consider at the same time (one trip to to the vet to take blood for sending to Laboklin is better than several). What is ED? Are there known eye problems PRA/PLL?

You need blood for DM and Dwarfism and please also to send for the databank in Bern.
ED is Ellbowdisplasia, that is an x-ray to take when you x-ray for HD.
There are more genetic eye diseases than PRA, normally the specialists (and it should be done by a specialist) check for all of them at once but this should be done in regular terms, we have to do it on a yearly basis in Germany.

Regards
Ina

Thanks Ina.

We are based in Bulgaria so it may be difficult to find somewhere to do the regular eye checks you describe, but I will look into it. The ED scan will be done soon and I intend to send blood to Utrecht to scan for Dwarfism. I was thinking of sending extra blood to Laboklin for DNA storage - is this the same or different to the databank in Bern (if different, please can you let me have the details so that I can organise this too).

Laboklin might also be able to do the dwarfism test, as it is the same test as for German Shepherds. Laboklin stores 2 ml of blood that stays in your property. Bern is doing research on DM and will start a research on our breed as soon as there are enough samples. They store 5ml and more (as much as you send in) that are the property of Bern but will only be used for this project and they do also send blood to other labs if you ask for it. As the storage in Bern is for free I would ask you to send blood to them as well. The storage is cost free.
Sonja Bognarova will publish everything the next days (she promised!). If you need the forms earlier just send me a mail I will send you the forms.

I'll ask Laboklin about the Dwarfism test but I thought I had read that they sent the samples to Utrecht. I will certainly send blood to Bern (maybe instead of Laboklin since they want 33 Euros to store the sample - I'd rather spend that on a test than just for storage...)

Idefix vom wengerhof

DM N/N

Thank you for your answer. With not so many dogs tested yet, were these old dogs tested for a specific reason, like a 'suspicious' line or are the owners responsible and think testing sensible? Too bad they don't want to make the names known, because imho knowing that indeed dogs do not get ill is important information!

I would urge those owners to at least submit blood or tissue samples and a pedigree - if not now, perhaps when the dogs die... it would be invaluable for research to know what "triggers" disease symptoms... it would, in theory, save other dogs from suffering...

I keep thinking about your post, and sorry but can shake the feeling you and i are getting smoke blown upo our ....

suddenly an 8 yr old twd is an old dog, people have known about it long, but you've never seen one, and the one, one of the few mentioned in public, is a different strain in your opinion, one that does show early. It is so unclear to me why people would test their dog to get the dm/dm result, a dog long beyond breeding age, and than keep those results under cover, even when these results would show that dm/dm dogs do indeed not have to get ill before the age of say 10.
I have only had Saarloos for 11 yrs, and have heard of both SWH and TWD with symptoms that could have been DM. (could have been, because first time i heard of it, little information was found, and the dna test is only recent)
So sorry, still don't by dogs getting old all healthy with this disease

Hello Nanouk,

Are you looking for examples of just wolf-dog DM affected?

Our Doberman is A/A for DM, he is almost 13 years old on January 31st.

He has no problems.

A Doberman is of course not a wolfdog but DM is the same genetic marker test.

I got today a nice information
Jasna Zlata Palz N/N for DM.
...I will never thank enough Ina and Michael for this Diamond!!

As for my Oliver, it is very probable that he is a Carrier like his sister, because
Ariminnum Upstream is N/N too.

At least I am sure that none of his sons are DM/DM

Quote 100%, the more dogs possible tested and with results, the better.
Studying the dogs who are DM/DM but also Ill should be a must.

Résultats officiels de Laboklin :

Ckoo Mah Ook de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N /DM
Di'Sun Shy Inn de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/N

Je suis en attente des résultats des 3 chiots, issus de ce mariage ....que je communiquerai également quels qu'ils soient ...

J'ai malheureusement fait les tests de DM, des parents, après la naissance des chiots ....:x
Histoire à suivre

Anechka du Clos des Guerriers

Result: Génotype N/N ( Free )

Les 3 chiots issus de cette portée sont N /DM (comme leur père)

2 nouveaux chiens, vont être testés à la fin de ce mois ....identité et résultats seront communiqués

Art z Viktoriinej zahrady

Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Genotype N/N (sain)

Great News!! Great for Art! (I know two of his children: Penelope and Vladimir Arimminum, and I just love them :D)

Oui ça fait plaisir. Je les adore aussi.

Amber Wolf z Peronówki - N/N

Results from Laboklin for Wolfy von Konigs-Terry

Degenerative Myelopathy N/DM
Malignant Hyperthermia N/N

We are waiting for the Dwarfism results

News from Italy. Test Degenerative Myelopathy
Cosmo Daniel Elite Farah: N/N
Cosmo Daniel Elite Fenics: N/N
Di' Sweety de la mollyniere de lo' Scale: N/N

Breeder Paraj Auta
Di' Samadu de la mollyniere de lo' Scale: N/N
CKAA' LOUP MAH de la mollyniere de lo' Scale: N/N
DHEER SYB de la mollyniere de lo' scale: N/N
Giasone Olimpalus: N/N

Hello,

really nice to hear, but what about their litter mates.
Are they all N/N as well? It would be interesting to know.

Michael

ARIMMINUM ZIBIBBO

Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N = esente

Mother Naboo is N/N.Father H'Gensis Borte Tchino is ? ,but his parents Ambra and Jerry Lee are N/N.

Hi Micha
We are'nt breader but... we know very well this race. We test the DM over the our twins Farah & Fenics (8 year olds). This test is made because they have many suns and nepewh.
On the last Farah's litter, we know at this moment the results of 3 daughters. (Di Sweety MLS, Di Samadù MLS, Di Sunshine MLS): alls N/N.
About Fenics, the last coupled was with Deer Sib MLS both are N/N and their generate 7 puppies (6 female & 1 male born the november 2, 2010).
We stongly hope that the new puppie's owners want to do a DM test.
About Giasone Olimpalus, we hope that you are happy to know that his father come from your kennel:o

Sincerely

I am very happy Sylvana !
Merci à toi et à Daniela d'avoir fait le nécessaire ....
Heureuse également pour les chiots de Fenics et Dheer'Sybb, qui du coup, sont forcément N/N !
C'est vraiment super pour Daniela de démarrer sur des bases saines pour sa 1ère portée de CLTS à son affixe !
Tellement contente pour elle .....

Ciao Silvana,

I was just curious to see the results of the whole litters.
That would be interesting for once.
Of course I know where Giasone comes from;-)...

Michael

Another interesting part from publication Genome-wide association analysis reveals a SOD1 mutation in canine degenerative myelopathy that resembles amyotrophic lateral sclerosis

"Mode of Inheritance of DM. All of the strictly diagnosed DMaffected
dogs were A/A homozygotes; however, several of the
aged A/A homozygotes were symptom free. Thus, DM appears
to be an incompletely penetrant autosomal recessive disease,
whereas most human SOD1 mutations cause dominant forms of
ALS. However, the N90A SOD1 isoform is associated with a
recessively inherited form of ALS in some families, but with a
dominant form in others (29, 30). The natural history of the
disease in the families with recessive inheritance resembles
canine DM in that onset is invariably in the lower limbs followed
by a slow disease progression, whereas the sites of onset and the
rates of progression of ALS in heterozygous N90A patients are
much more variable (29, 30). Among the families segregating for
the dominant form of ALS, rare patients with 2 copies of the
mutant SOD1 allele had much earlier ages at disease onset than
patients inheriting only a single copy (31, 32). Also, hSOD1m
mice with higher transgene copy numbers exhibit earlier disease
onset (5, 33), and the disease also occurs much earlier in
homozygous hSOD1m mice than in the corresponding heterozygotes
(34). With DM, the intermediate levels of staining for
SOD1 inclusions observed in 2 of the 5 aged heterozygotes (Fig.
3 E and F) suggests that pathological processes are underway in
these dogs even though no clinical signs are apparent. The
pathology in SOD1:c.118GA heterozygotes may develop too
slowly to become clinically apparent within the usual canine life
span. In this case, only A/A homozygotes would exhibit clinical
signs and the mode of inheritance would appear to be recessive
even if the pathogenesis, like that of ALS, involves a toxic gain
of function."

In addition, hypothesis dogs (N/DM) might be developping the disease (commonly much later, and more rare cases), so unfortunately we are still far to understand.

It practically says that in Dogs the gene seems to be recessive because in heterozygotes dogs the developing of the disease is so slow it does not appear in the natural lifespan? As in Human Beings the same type of mutation is dominant?
I sincerely hope we'll have more and more data on this illness as it is all a bit confusing... sigh...

Ckaa'Loup-Bah de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N /DM

Chye Z' Ddey de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/DM

Sa mère : Cynthia Spod Dumbiera : N/N
Son père : Crying Wolf Rambo : N/DM

aslan vom sturmwind : N/DM

Hello,
this is news of August 2010, but I want to insert also here:

VOICE OF WOLF

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie
Ergebnis: Genotyp N/DM


ASHOKA

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie
Ergebnis: Genotyp N/N

re
 

Results from Italy

GOJA OLIM PALUS
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: genotype N/N


GRADISCA OLIM PALUS
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: genotype N/DM

Results from France : z Orel Ochrana kennel

We knew neither father nor mother DM test results (mother not made) before making the covering, so we decided to test all the litter.

First complete litter tested before leaving kennel :

VOICE OF WOLF z mou es X CKAA'LOUP-BAH de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale

Males (3) :

Chip n° 250269201042514 N/N

Chip n° 250269201042016 N/DM

Chip n° 250269201040297 DM/DM

Females (5) :

Chip n° 250269201038637 N/N

Chip n° 250269201042639 N/DM

Chip n° 250269201039646 N/DM

Chip n° 250269201044803 N/DM

Chip n° 250269201044525 N/DM

Dogs name will be revealed when i receive DM test certificates.

All purchasers are and will be informed about their duty and the consequences of these tests.

Results from France

Ar'wan de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/DM

I really commend you for your honesty with being public with results, and informing the purchasers of your puppies of their status! It's something many of us have faced as breeders; I did not know the DM results of my dogs either when I bred them, and tested afterwards. I really agree with being open and honest and not "hiding" results, good or bad - that is the kind of breeder I like to be - and I will recommend to other people!

Sherdor,

is very a good thing indeed to have made test your range and to make the results public, cheer!!! sincerely, cheer !!!

------------------------------------------------------------------

on the other hand, sorry but I mouse slightly, I reconsider with your remark made little time ago advising me to stop breeding of CSW having had an enormous problem in my range, my small reached nanism….

I dare to hope that your point of view to be changed... :rock_3

Did you also test the parents?

... Yes ... (but i didn't know this disease exists before making the covering...)

Voice of Wolf test has been made in August 2010 (as repeated by Riccardo, see above).

Ckaa'loup-bah (the mother) has been made in january 2011 (see above Lorry Leclerc message)

Exor von der Wolfsranch

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie:
Ergebnis: Genotyp: N/N

E' de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/DM

Conan von Keschla : N/DM

Its great to see these results here (and a bonus for the open honesty). I guarantee you if this was an American GSD forum everyone would list their dog as N/N (even if they didn't test).

Wait, no, most would respond "Its not in our lines so we don't test". :(

Super this cooperation of Sherdor , Lorry and all the others who also post N/DM results! :ylsuper
Thank you for open and honest also sharing of these results :gent

And I hope you will send also a copy of the test result to [email protected] ;)

In the past there was no DM test and I did breed with my female. After the test was validated my female and some of her offspring was tested. And my female was tested as N/DM and unfortunately one of her daughters as DM/DM :( (also these results are in the list of test results) And so for sure the father of this litter is at least carrier too.
The DM/DM female is now almost 5 years and has not any physical problem.:)

But now we have a possibility to test and no DM/DM dogs have to be born anymore!

On this moment all DNA test are expensive, but that also will probably change in future :)
I was at a study meeting about DNA tests were they did give info about the developing of the "all in one test " for dog breeds. In future breed clubs can ask to make an "all in one test" for all the specific validated tests for a breed. And these kind of test will be cheaper and so in future we also can negotiate with several labs for the best price!

HERE you can find the last update of the DM test results we did receive for the health info site.
But in the meantime a lot more CsW's were tested for DM!
So besides this list there are more DM test results known. :roll:

And I hope in future these owners will also share these results (with or without name of the dog) ;)
And till that time I hope that all breeders (before breeding) will ask for to see the DM test results of the dogs they did choose for an combination !
And I hope they will only make combinations with tested dogs instead of playing Russian roulette..

Hello Mijke,

the University Bern say you need minimum an second factor for DM. Is there anything news on this?



Greetings
Markus

Damon du Clos des Guerriers

Myelopathie Dégérative

Result: N/N

Bonjour à tous,

Je vais répondre en français car je n'ai pas trop le temps pour écrire mon texte dans ma langue maternelle et ensuite le traduire en Anglais ...(chacun utilisera donc reverso ou Translate, s'il le souhaite .... :)

Déjà MERCI à mijke, pour cet hommage appuyé aux éleveurs qui jouent le jeu de la transparence, c'est agréable de voir reconnaitre les efforts faits et je suis certaine que d'autres vont suivre ....

Toujours dans une optique de franchise, je tiens à préciser cependant qu'il n'est pas trés intelligent, ou du moins délicat de la part de WD, de faire, une fois de plus, des différences entre les personnes, (qui acceptent pourtant de donner le nom de leur chien en toute transparence) et de faire des camps différenciés, entre ceux qui scannent leurs résultats et ceux qui ne scannent pas

Pour ma part, je ne scanne pas mes résultats, mais ce n'est pas pour autant qu'il ne sont pas sûrs et officiels à 100 % !!!

Je ne vois pas l'intérêt que j'aurai, à affirmer publiquement que la plupart de mes chiens sont N/DM si ce n'était pas vrai !

Ce serait franchement stupide de ma part, Non ???


D'autant que tous les chiens porteurs ( qui vivent chez moi) sont ou seront systématiquement stérilisés, les uns derrière les autres....
Je n'y gagne donc strictement rien en terme d'élevage et je trouve désobligeant de laisser sous entendre que les résultats ne sont pas sûrs à 100 %

Une fois de plus, c'est une façon de laisser planer un doute sur la probité de certains....et c'est franchement dommage et surtout déplorable de toujours vouloir faire des camps et des scissions....

C'est exactement, comme le problème des cotations de dysplasies : ce n'est pas parcequ'elles ne sont pas transmises à WD, qu'elles ne sont pas faites !!!


Si j'accepte de jouer le jeu en toute transparence pour les chiens de mon affixe, ou ceux qui vivent chez moi, (alors même que j'arrêtes la reproduction) c'est uniquement pour aider, (à mon petit niveau) à tracer une carte réaliste de la situation des chiens sains, atteints, ou porteurs, pour une maladie que j'aurai dû prendre au sérieux un peu plus tôt ....

De même, je souligne un point important :

Ce n'est pas parceque WD ne reçois pas de résultas scannés, que les résultats officiels ne sont pas connus pour autant !....

Ils le sont, mais dans la base de données de Laboklin !

En effet, sur le formulaire de prélèvement de Laboklin, il y a un emplacement qui stipule que le propriétaire donne (ou non) son accord pour que les résultats soient rendus publiques ....
Or je signe, systématiquement cette partie du formulaire ....et tous les résultats MENTIONNENT clairement le nom de mes chiens pour la base de données de Laboklin

Voilà, désolée de la longueur de ce texte en français, mais je tenais à dire mon ressenti ....
Inutile d'ouvrir une polémique sur le sujet, ça ne changera pas mon point de vue personnel !

Cordialement à tous .....

Which would be not the right breeding policy. Too many dogs in the breed are carriers. Also I would like to inlight that, as the DM test is good to have, it's currently an incomplet test, other genes/factors are involved to develop the disease (+ highly presumption that N/DM can also devlop the disease). So sterilize all N/DM is not the right solution.

D'après vous, vouloir stériliser tous les chiens porteurs (N/DM), n'est pas une bonne solution ?.

Vous avez peut être raison .... mais à mes yeux, quand je vois le % des chiens qui s'avèrent finalement porteurs, issus par exemple d'un seul de mes reproducteurs mâles, porteur lui aussi, je l'estime trop important, pour jouer à chaque fois à la roulette russe....


Pourquoi, refaire des portées avec un mâle porteur (avec une femelle saine) et prendre d'avance le risque de générer de nouveaux porteurs. ???
De même, comment réusiir à assainir son cheptel, si à chaque fois, on réitère les mêmes erreurs (des mariages à risque )...?

Sincèrement, je n'en vois pas l'utilité .....En tout cas à mon niveau personnel et avec mes propres chiens ....

Pour le reste, je laisse à chacun, le soin de décider en son âme et conscience de ce qu'il convient de faire (ou pas) pour le futur de la race ....

IMHO it's important that breeders realize that they can keep N/DM dogs in breeding program as such dogs may have others very positive part therefor are important for the breed (in addition at the end 50% of CSV may be carrier).
I really understand breeders want to "clean" their own kennel but if you look at how distributed control work (e.g. emergent behaviour) you will see that each one action is important. This has already been done in the past (sorry I forgot the breed name) this breed was affected by an eye disease, the breeding club + breeders follow a restrictive breeding program, at the end the disease almost disappear so this has been 'working', but what this gene narrowing bring to the breed is another new eye disease more serious than the other one. The DM test result is just another part of the breeding value of a dog, but not an absolute 'not for breeding' mark.

I agree, elf. There are (IMO) more improtant factors that need to be looked at like hips and elbows. Relatively speaking, DM is rather eacy to breed it out, any breeder can eliminate the disease on one generation (breed an a/a to a N/N - all puppies will be carriers) and eliminate the genes themselves (affected and carriers) in two generations.

Plus, it doesn't look like as high as a percentage of affected vlcaks contract the symptoms as in other breeds like Germans shepherds and they've noticed dogs who were on a diet where "fats" were listed early in the ingredients list had a much higher chance of developing symptoms.

The gene pool is too small, especially here in the USA, to eliminte any dog solely on their DM test results (but it is still extremely important to keep track of it!).

Il va de soi que votre façon de voir les choses (et d'en tourner l'explication) va au final faire plaisir à plus d'un éleveur !

Chouette continuons de reproduire !

exactly that was and is an apprehension of many breeders.
the only one mated N / N and by that, then the problem of inbreeding with their years and gets in a few episodes.

if the mathematically about 50% are from an N / DM x N / N breeding N / N.
then you have a couple of years away and the opportunity to get to race clean without the gene pool to shrink too much.

and there are many more points which are to be observed in a breeding. This includes HD, ED, standard and character, inbreeding, ect.

I think we are on the right path but it was also only a "small" number of dogs tested in relation to the total population

Here is what Joan R. Coates said:

"The 'DM' allele is very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate the dogs testing DM/DM or N/DM might be destructive to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed.
...
Summary: We recommend that dog breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize this test result. Instead, the test result is one factor among many in a balanced breeding program."

The 2 safe puppies (N/N) i have in my litter tested are very different than the others... they look like weaker than the carrier (N/DM) or the affected male (DM/DM) ...

That also means that a lot of gene are linked to the mutated SOD1...

... and if in one hand you think you could be safe according to DM disease, maybe in other hand, you can select also weak point of the breed !

(maybe it could also be coincidence... but who knows ?)

EZECHIELE OLIM PALUS

Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/DM

Ckoo'Mah-Akk de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/DM

Il en ressort pour l'instant que, sur 6 chiens testés, issus du même père, une seule femelle est N/N .....
On est bien loin du taux de transmission évalué à 50 % ! :?

I can read French but I cannot write it, so please pardon me :).

The 50% possibility of transmission is on every puppy. It means that it is like throwing a coin in the air and seeing if it exits a face or the other. Every throw has 50% for each face BUT it does not depend on the other throws. On 10 throws, you could have 3 face ONE and 7 face TWO, it does not mean that the probability is 30/70, it is 50/50 but every launch is independent. The same goes for the puppies... I hope I have been clear enough ^^.

The type of inheritance is not yet known. Most of researchers think it is multi factorial. And in all kind of research labs (of uni's and commercial)all over the world, they are still doing research for DM.

Al lot of specialist advises not to over react and not to exclude all carriers, but make crossings with Free dogs.

It depends of the gene pool (genetic diversity) of a breed how many years it will cost to reduce a genetic problem in a breed. And also how breed clubs and breeders can cooperate to reduce a problem in future. ;)
Because you will have to work together to keep the genetic diversity also in future as large as possible! And it will cost years to reduce a problem.;-)

It is of not any use to exclude carriers on this moment, especial because the type of inheritance is not known!
When we would exclude N/DM dogs for breeding the genetic diversity would become very small and more new genetic problems will appear!

So don't make a very big issue of DM, but test as much as possible and register how it is spread in the breed. :)And don't only use combinations Free x Free!!! Because that will also destroy a breed in time.

For example in Irish setter breed they did make a special program of registering CLAD (carrier x carrier was discouraged but carrier x Free was permitted and all litters had to be tested en registered for years ) and during a lot of years they did reduce the problem but did keep the genetic diversity.

DM is not the only problem in our breed! There are more factors you have to care of in breeding. And don't only look at test results or splendid exterior.. but also take care for a wide gene pool!

I was at a lecture of prof. Peelman (genetic specialist) and for example he did tell the audience: in all breeds where are a lot of the same ancestors, in future more gene mutations will appear.
On this moment 500 gene mutations in dog breeds are known and documented. And only of about 300 the type of inheritance is yet known. And just like all other specialists he did advice: The most important thing to keep in mind is: take care for as much as possible genetic diversity in a breed! :)

Chogan von Keschla

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie:
Ergebnis: Genotyp: N/N

Chagall von Keschla

Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie:
Ergebnis: Genotyp: N/N

Arimminum Yuma
Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie:
Ergebnis: Genotyp: N/N

Chenoa von Keschla
Degenerative Myelopathie - PCR
Myelopathie:
Ergebnis: Genotyp: N/N

Kennel Taabernakkelin DM results! More is comming...

Basior Jantarowa Wataha:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Baron spod Dumbiera:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: genotype DM/DM

Wolfsirius Sleeping Storm:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Rocks'n Jewels Andradite:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: genotype N/DM

Elys spod Dumbiera:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: genotype N/DM

Ikala spod Dumbiera:
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Finlandya de la Louve Blanche
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Hi Satu, I wish to Baron maximally health old age and I cross fingres DM will not be visible on him.

Absolutely! As always, it's very nice to see openness from a breeder in sharing ALL health results publically, especially for an older dog who has had such a big modern influence in our breed. It means a lot - thank you!!! Big hugs to our Finnish pack!:)

Yes, it is good to see the openness that kennels are having with this and we should see if the affected dogs do develop symptoms and when.

Some studies here believe that diet has a lot to do with it - GSDs that had diets that consisted of foods that had fats listed in the first 4 ingredients had a much higher chance of developing symptoms.

I also agree with Mijke - while DM isn't the best thing to have in your lines it is extremely easily managed and can be bred out of lines in as little as two generations. The concentration should be more on important issues like hips, elbows, and eyes as well as keeping an eye out for other possible factors.

Thanks again Satu for sharing open ALL your test results! :thumbs

Really - this is great when people do not hide the results that may seem "not so nice". It is a pitty many still think it is some kind of shame or what :D We should maybe talk more about it - that DM/DM does not mean any tragedy :)

From Italy:
BEY' CHEE DOZZ DE LA MOLLYNIERE DE LO SCALE
DM TEST GENOTYPE N/N

Dheer'Syb Ooh de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale : N/DM

Thalia Crying Wolf : DM/DM

Yes. This is not a big tragedy. In this moment puppies whit Baron all is only Carrier.
And Baron/ Elys all tested dogs are carrier.

I´m waiting for a more older dogs have DM results and breeders who have many litters in year make tests very soon.

Hi Lorry, I wish to Thalia maximally health life. I hope DM will not be visible on her too.

Merci de ces quelques mots de soutien Hanka ....ça me touche ...

Thalia, vient d'avoir 5 ans en Février dernier, elle est en pleine forme et j'espère qu'elle le restera encore longtemps ....

Thalianounette ....:tard

DM results from kennel Forever Wolf !


Blazy de la Louve Blanche
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/DM

Dream Wolf de la Louve Blanche
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/DM

Forever Wolf Arctic Hero
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Forever Wolf Arctic Angel
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/N

Crying Wolf Luka
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result Myelopathy
Result: Genotype: N/DM

Thanks for testing and sharing Satu :gent
Very best regards / Mikael

Hanka, now a serious question - do you know PERSONALLY at least ONE Wolfdog who has any VISIBLE problems with DM?

I know some Wolfdogs which are moving really horrible but they are N/N.... :rock_3

I never had seen (on my own eyes) wolfdog with visible problems because DM.
Why you ask ?

CSV are testing a single mutation in the SOD1 gene (considered a major risk factor at the moment). I think that in the future, discovering another SOD1 gene mutations that will affect the expression of the disease.

Honestly - because I think we should not wish "long life without any symptoms" to any DM/DM dogs... ;) In the most cases I would rather wish other (sometimes N/N) dogs to move in the old age as good as some of these DM/DM dogs... :rock_3

Best example - Baron.... :D
His father Gaius was living 14 years and till the end he was pretty good moving dog ("extremly good moving" when we take into consideration his age). When he was over 10 years old he was still moving much better than many YOUNGER (5-6 years old) dogs which we can see running in the show rings...
Dia Kollárov dvor at the age of 10 years is moving like young female and she is still alive (trying to beat Gaius? ;)).

For sure you know how many dogs are not so lucky - they are much younger but show already symptoms of degenerations.

The problem are really not the dogs with DM/DM which move simply great (and where selection will be done) but the dogs which are N/N and are used as pupular stud dogs even if they move like cripples...

Hi Margo,

maybe Hanka hasn't seen one, but I can show you a dog ( Crying Wolf Falco ) with clearly diagnosed DM not far from our place.
We had him at our place for 2 weeks and believe me, it was not nice seeing him wobbling through our garden.
And he's not the only one.

Michael

Margo, I know very well, dog DM/DM can be "health" = without problems to last moment. But second dog with DM/DM can have really big problems with movement. (Everybody here had seen videos). So I think my wishing of health to owners of DM/DM dogs is nothing bad. I really want health for all DM/DM dogs. Have you got problem with it?
I don´t write about some other wolfdogs or about parents of DM/DM dogs,....etc. It is not my problem. I need not your explanaition. Really. I had genetics and breeding in school.

Yes, I know about him. I also know that Forrest has the same problems. And it it known that DM is a problem exactly in this line... and there is a MUST to make a selection there... It apply also to the second line with known problems.

But the reason of my question was something different: how many OTHER dogs with DM did you saw? Which were not OLD but had problems with movement? I know the goosips spread about two more dogs fromt he origin countries but I heard also that for 100% they are not DM/DM....

I know it is repeating, but maybe somebody had not seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQfGaPYLi2o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWBgf1qcB_4

But here is thread about DM, Margo. If you want speak about wolfdogs with some other problems in movement, you can open new thread.

Why your are getting so angry? What is the problem? The question was really harmless - you are breeding dogs for a long time. Did you saw any dogs which were not old but having problems with movement like the dogs on the videos?

I spoke with several breeders in private and they listed some old dogs which are moving not so good but all of them are 12, 13 or 14 years old. No wonder - nobody is so crazy to expect that for examplke a 98 years old grandpa is moving like a 21 years old boy...


Anyway - basing on the fact that the mutation in the SOD1 gene is only a factor for the development of DM and the ilness seems to be caused by more genes it is really important to select the dogs (lines) where there are not only carriers but also dogs which shows symptoms of DM - especially in the early age.

I had seen a few old wolfdogs with problems in movement. But- of course- not so big like on videos.
But I think it is writting about nothing.............
Lorry, Satu, I cross fingers for your dogs.

No, I'm talking about DM - you was breeding comittee member in Czech Republic. Could you list us dogs in CZ which show DM symtoms like the dog showed on the video (let say which you saw in the last 10 years)... I really do not ask for DM/DM-carriers dogs but for the dogs which are really ILL...

I hope it is not a top secret information which some people try to hide - especially in the case where official information is so important....

I really want to know how spread in the problem and how many dogs are afflicted by DM...

Hello,

it is very secure we need a second, if not several factors including the onset of DM. How many of the dogs DM/DM where ill? In witch age the dogs where ill? For what % from the dogs we speak? We know to less in the moment!
According the university Bern in Switzerland where dogs ill from the race Hovawart the are DM/DM and DM/N. Other dogs from the Hovawart where not ill and they are DM/DM.

We make a Witch-Hunting!
Right now it like the plague during the Middle Ages is based on the genetic decline in the breed.

What if the medical-scientists decode the other 200-400 diseases? What we then made?

We need to observe and test, but it is too early, the results may have influence in the breed.
Look in this thread: Dogs who are N/N where celebration, dogs with DM/N where only ok, and dogs where DM/DM: Oh my Lord, the poor dogs.

This is not god for the breed, this is the beginning from the end!

By the way: All my dogs are testet!


This is my private opinion. It is difficult to explain this to me, my english is not good.

Greetings
Markus

More from Finland:

Forever Wolf Arctic Storm
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result: Genotype: N/DM

Sorry Margo, this example has no basis, has no sense.
Baron is DM/DM; it is possible, it is probable, it is plausible that he has inherited the genes from two heterozygous ... considering that the homozygous can't show symptoms (and these symptoms are in no way connected to the physical deterioration caused by age old), I do not understand what's so strange (enough to be cited as an example) if Dia and Gaius have a good movement despite his age, and his son Baron found to be homozygous DM / DM.:shock:

Just a simple question, but could it be that dogs that are not DM/DM yet still have movement problems, be afflicted with another unrelated and yet unknown degenerative disease? Another disease which works through another biological mechanism.

If so, wouldn't it be conservatively prudent to say that dogs which are DM/DM as well as dogs with hence so far undiagnosed condition are both at risk for some type of degenerative condition, and both at risk to pass those genes, known and unknown to litters?

Are the two conditions interchangeable, and if not, can't they be approached as two different 'illnesses', so to speak?

Nothing is strange.... :rofl3 Of course it is possible that Gaius and Dia are "only" carriers... ;) I know it...

The point is something else - that after all the speaks, days of disscusion we came again to the very old rule which so many breeders use: to look on the dogs and their offsprings - to evaluate "general health" of a line and not (only) on the health results of one or two dogs...

Because if we will take into consideration only one result we can land in a bigger troubles than only DM...

Some breeder took part in the witch hunt and they decided to make the 'political correct' litters... They have carriers females (sometimes females "at risk"). Because they decided to make the DM-result the ONLY selection for their litters - look what happend...
One kennel get litter of 3 puppies, one died, one in untypical, one is OK... But great - the only normal one which seems to be a normal wolfdog is only "carrier"... :twisted: Maybe it is political correct litter but I will not take such puppy even for free... (as it seems the puppies had several other health problems).
Let's take the another breeder who took DM-free stud dog - the only tested in her country but with look and body of a german shepherd.... The puppies already now do not move typical - they move like GSD - sad look...
Another case of breeder who was "affraid" to use "carrier" - instead of it she used "N/N" (free) dog which.... had already serious problems to move at the age of 2 years.... The new puppy owners will be for sure happy that their puppies will not have problems with movement at the age of 10-14 years old but... they can get the problems typical for the father at the age of 2 years.... :rock_3
(I changed some facts in order not to blame any breeders but to talk about the problematic)

Look - I'm really for the tests. And I'm for the selection. But I see that some breeders are starting to drive crazy... Some start to think to sterylize really good dogs only because they are carriers. Another in the name of DM-selection make the most stupid litters a person can do... And they would not make such mistakes if they really would take in the consideration ALL the possible risks...

We want to make selection for DM.... but at the moment what we are getting in many cases are litters where INSTEAD of DM genes we get toons of different problems and degenerations which are also influencing the movement of the dogs... Problems which appear MUCH FASTER than the DM-problems....

So my question is one more time the same: how it looks with the DM problems? How many tested dogs (DM/DM) are really ill? How it looks with this problem in the Czech Republic - how many dogs were put down because of it? Which lines?
I do not ask about "maybe dogs" as the last two examples of "for sure ill" dogs I get are DM/N!!!!

It is really important to know it... I just wonder about aversion of some people to publish some pure facts... Why it is so top secret? Because there are so many dogs? In this case we should be informed which dogs/lines are "black listed". Or maybe they do not know any other ill dogs - in this case we must start a work to look if maybe we need another tests... Or maybe take into consideration that by Wolfdogs it is much more complicated...?

DM symptoms...
 

In GSD, the current "theory" is that up to 25% of the population is DM/DM. Not all of those GSD develop DM symptoms, though other things may kill them before the disease manifests itself - things like bloat/gastric torsion, for instance, may kill a GSD before it ever shows symptoms.
I also would like to know (if possible) how many DM/DM CsVs end up getting symptoms. The information on diet and lifestyle may affect whether or not the disease manifests.
CsVs live longer than the typical GSD and perhaps the "wolf" genetics protect them from symptom development to some degree. We will only know if we collect information. Knowing these factors could very well positively impact not only CsVs with DM, but GSDs also (who seem to have a higher rate and more severe cases of DM symptom development).
If we surmise that CsVs (due to their genetic heritage) have a similar percentage of DM/DM animals (25%) but far fewer actual cases of disease symptoms, we need to look at outside factors that may influence disease development.
As it is now, the GSD community as a whole, seems to be ignoring the genetic test, citing that not all DM/DM dogs get DM symptoms. Obviously there are other factors at play that trigger disease development. By collecting as much information as we can (even though at this point it is "anecdotal" and not truly "scientific") we may be able to see some correlations or trends that can be studied more in depth - without open discussion, though, we simply bury our heads in the sand...
We are all stewards of our breed(s) and need to look at the big picture rather than any "embarrassment" over whether or not our dogs have DM (as if it is our fault!). I would encourage those who have dogs with DM/DM results to carefully note diet, health and environment and perhaps even donate tissue samples for further study so that we can all learn and perhaps remove this debilitating disease from our breed.

If I breed dogs, whose ancestors have become very old in good health, then I have "general health"!
Right now everyone screams for DM and thereafter bred!... .. what then?
And without knowing the cause of the disease. Why Hovawart sick when they are DM/N? We know to less in the moment, but we are select for DM? What is for other diseases?
What if other diseases are genetically decoded?



This is my oppinion.


Greetings
Markus

After the tests, the sale of puppies is not easy. Who wants a carrier? Others understand the tests to be only one tool in breeding. Others breeders or dog owners are afraid of being blacklisted. (I already have a bad reputation and we have only ill dogs) ;)

I am a proud breeder of the litter carrier. Ikala x Baron

For me, all the untested dogs are sick until proven otherwise. :)
I do not want to blame other breeders, not covered by their policies.

Margo: When you have seen Baron? over 3 years ago. He is not a same dog anymore.

And what are the reasons of these moving problems? Are they because of anatomical structure? Or is it a disease?

Can be wrong anathomy, physical inactivity or diseases DM, Spondylosis, Ataxia...

But true is if we take all carriers away from breeding we can have more serious illness.

At the moment, the witch-hunt to watch following: There are almost only used male dogs with N/N.

Here again the implications for breeding:

Maybe about 25% of dogs have DM / DM. Then about 20% of these will go out of the breed.

Maybe about 50% of dogs have DM/N. Then maybe only 10% of these will go out of the breed (mostly males)

The remaining 25% of all dogs go into breed, but is often taken (mostly males)

Without the shift to dogs with N/N, we already have a loss of about 30% of all dogs. Then the shift to the N/N -> We have a loss of between 20 to 40% will have the genetic diversity,… if it goes on!

This is just an example. Everyone can expect for yourself.