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-   -   Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored) (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510)

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 12:26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 402443)
And the fear of the Crying Wolf breeder of making the DNA tests shows that there is really something wrong going on there.
As I know Galiba is not in the property of Crying Wolf kennel ...
Maybe the owner of Galiba should send some blood samples to solve all mysteries around this subject.

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 12:32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 402604)
Galiba has normal colour and normal mask. I know him personally and it is normal czech. wolfdog.
I also met brother of Galiba: Gizmo. And he is normal czw also ...

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 12:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 402529)
Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France).
Admin, let me understand ... also Sibir and Volos are suspected of being saarlos mixes, or only their offsprings? Because if they aren't, maybe is the mother of that litters with saarlos genes... ??? As I saw in the database, they have puppies only in France and some of french breeders are known to bred mixes ... right?

Hanka 09-09-2011 12:44
Beatrice, I asked owner of Galiba about help for my friends....:(

Morian 09-09-2011 12:44
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatriceSlavinschi (Bericht 402666)
also Sibir and Volos are suspected of being saarlos mixes, or only their offsprings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 402494)
The DNA test of the red Wolfdogs were done in France so it is proven that the red puppies are sired by son of Galiba.
i understood that sibir and volos...

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 12:51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona (Bericht 402634)
I think this is a matter of each national Kennel/Breed club. On receiving a document granting breeding rights (or at bonitation), the owner should be asked to sign a document stating he is obliged to provide DNA material of the dog if any doubts appear concerning his/her parenthood (+ a list of reliable labs provided). If he refused, he would be banned from the club and his dog would lose breeding rights, so the pups couldn't be registered. This would also mean the dog would not be able to participate in dog shows.
Rona, I agree with you. This is a common sense issue and I think all clubs should do so. And you speak here only for doubtfull litters... I understand in Sweden they do it for obtaining the pedigree for pups. We need to move forward ... for the benefit of our breed.

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 13:09
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402669)
i understood that sibir and volos...
Ok. I understand also that the genetic tests were done on their (Volos and Sibir) offsprings - grandsons of Galiba, not directly on Volos or Sibir, but on their puppies which they sired. So the question was: they produce these puppies by themselves? Wasn't there any females? The red gene is surely from father line or may be from mother line?

Morian 09-09-2011 13:15
as admin said - both parents might be carriers. and they both have galiba in their pedigree. so it would be good to have dna sample of galiba to check is he the father.

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 14:28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402680)
as admin said - both parents might be carriers. and they both have galiba in their pedigree. so it would be good to have dna sample of galiba to check is he the father.
Ok. Now you've knocked me down ... :shock: Are you saying that both parents can have Galiba in their pedigrees? Isn't this called inbreeding?
Ok. Now I looked in the database ... and maybe you got my point wrong.
I was saying that for having a litter you need two parents, right? When you said "both parents" I think you are not refering at Volos and Sibir. When I say both parents I say FATHER = Volos or Sibir
MOTHER = one of the females
So my question was: isn't it possible that the red gene to be from the mother's line? I saw there in the database that both Volos and Sibir had puppies with french females. Maybe is in their blood the red gene?
I understand that not Volos and Sibir were tested, but their offsprings with other females. So wouldn't be necessary that females be also tested? How do you know that the red gene is from father's line and is Galiba?

Morian 09-09-2011 14:36
i'm totally lost :lol:
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 402529)
Maybe it the explanation... Because "affected" would be Sibir (father of the red dogs in FR) and Volos (father of the Saarloos alike dogs from France). It will be also explanation why the Crying Wolf breeder is so much afraid about the DNA tests. Because it can show that Galiba is not the father of Sibir?
so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"?? if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it 8)

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 14:52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402702)
i'm totally lost :lol:
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and

so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"?? if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it 8)
Now it's more clear to me about what you were talking about, but still awaiting an answer from admin ... :)

Morian 09-09-2011 14:54
beatrice, i also wait for admin's answer :lol: you see - it's already easy to be lost in this info... totally :D

BeatriceSlavinschi 09-09-2011 15:11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402706)
beatrice, i also wait for admin's answer :lol: you see - it's already easy to be lost in this info... totally :D
Now I'm lost even more ... I have looked in Sibir and Thalia pedigrees and they are half the same ... It's like 50% COI and that's A LOT! Do you know the person who bred them? Because maybe here is the problem ... Are they the real parents of the offsprings or maybe some genetic mutations? I'm not so good with genetics, but 50% is it allowed? I knew something about 20 maximum ... or even less.

monita 09-09-2011 18:58
By the rules of FCI, endogamy is allowed, sibling + sibling, father + its daughter, or mother + its son. This is called inbreeding. We call it line breeding if the parents' relatives are the same somewhere. We call it outerbreeding if we match two different lined parents. This is allowed by the FCI but every country can decide otherwise.
I can answer to genetics, inheritance or other questions.

Jennin Lauma 10-09-2011 02:49
There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

admin 10-09-2011 08:57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402702)
i'm totally lost :lol:
parents of red pups were thalia and sibir, and
so as i understand now not only galiba is "doubtful"??
Of course not. Also the T-litter is "under investigation". But the only dog from this littter used for breeding is Thalia and Lory wrote already she will not use her or any other her offsprings for breeding. So this part of the line is out of breeding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morian (Bericht 402702)
if both parents must be carriers, then it means... falco is their common ancestor, so the question is about him maybe??? is he father of galiba and other cw itters? admin, please, clarify it 8)
First remember the lies of the Hungarian breeder that the Saarloos she owned was sterylized although on the photos is clearly visible he had both testicles. Nebulosa published also a link to Czech web site which is publishing information about his litters. Second there is the fear of the Hungarian breeder to make the DNA tests. So why there are so many lies spread by this breeder if there is nothing to hide? I'm sure that ANY other (honest) breeder would even ask for official DNA tests if there would be such accusations published on any page.

And last but not least - I can see in the database that there are MANY offsprings of the F-Kollarov dvor dogs in Slovakia. Many breeders made already inbreeds. But I asked and not even one dogs is born red. Not even one have the Saarloos characteristics which appear by the offsprings of Crying Wolf dogs.

As it was mentioned - I asked some breeders from Slovakia and they swear the Saarloos was and still is unknown in their country. There is no possibility that any Slovakian litters are Saarloos crosses. And there is no possiblity to have "red" blood in the Slovakian lines and it do not exist by European Wolves, was not present by the GSD used for building our breed and never appeared by CsW. And I believe them as everybody knows that the Slovakian pupulation is much more inbreeded (much more related) than any other population. For 30 years there was not even one red dog born in SK but already 3 by Crying Wolf. Pure X-files....

monita 10-09-2011 15:30
There's only one breeder in Hungary: Kennel von Neckartal. And here, only pure-blood wolfdogs will born.

Mikael 10-09-2011 22:33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin (Bericht 402784)
Of course not. Also the T-litter is "under investigation". But the only dog from this littter used for breeding is Thalia and Lory wrote already she will not use her or any other her offsprings for breeding. So this part of the line is out of breeding.



First remember the lies of the Hungarian breeder that the Saarloos she owned was sterylized although on the photos is clearly visible he had both testicles. Nebulosa published also a link to Czech web site which is publishing information about his litters. Second there is the fear of the Hungarian breeder to make the DNA tests. So why there are so many lies spread by this breeder if there is nothing to hide? I'm sure that ANY other (honest) breeder would even ask for official DNA tests if there would be such accusations published on any page.

And last but not least - I can see in the database that there are MANY offsprings of the F-Kollarov dvor dogs in Slovakia. Many breeders made already inbreeds. But I asked and not even one dogs is born red. Not even one have the Saarloos characteristics which appear by the offsprings of Crying Wolf dogs.

As it was mentioned - I asked some breeders from Slovakia and they swear the Saarloos was and still is unknown in their country. There is no possibility that any Slovakian litters are Saarloos crosses. And there is no possiblity to have "red" blood in the Slovakian lines and it do not exist by European Wolves, was not present by the GSD used for building our breed and never appeared by CsW. And I believe them as everybody knows that the Slovakian pupulation is much more inbreeded (much more related) than any other population. For 30 years there was not even one red dog born in SK but already 3 by Crying Wolf. Pure X-files....
I think that this post say it all ;)

Very best regards / Mikael

CDaniela 10-09-2011 23:12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma (Bericht 402778)
There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

Jennin Lauma 11-09-2011 00:03
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDaniela (Bericht 402887)
Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.
As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).


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