he not red like are red sarlos - this is big differences.

surely it is.

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/10...96-6520755.jpg

red?

real:

http://www.wolfdog.org/pics2/2009/10...75-1382601.jpg

and here we can see agouti red which is impossible in our breed (but possible in saarlos wh)

Thanks for the clarification. :) I figured there had to be something to it that I was missing! It's really hard when all you have to go on are photos.

Vicky, Tambury was quite dark, you are right, but that was red with a lot of black in it too. The saarloos red is without black and the nose is red/liver which is the best showing that something is very wrong.

Sorry, here the pic from the german wolf pup - in red ...

Vicky & Christian;

The animals you referred to are not genetically the same kind of "red" as the Saarloos. The animals in the pics you linked have pheomelanin red, and Christian, the puppy could be described as more "pheomelanistic" than average European wolves, -just like the Finnish/Russian "yellow" wolves I showed you.

The Saarloos "red" is not pheomelanin at all, but eumelanin (normally black) switched to brown. It is genetically exactly the same as the brown labrador, but in Saarloos it is just combined with the agouti coloring.
When the dog has this genotype bb for brown eumelanin, then ALL the black pigment in the animal turns brown. -Not just the hair, but skin too!

And you can clearly see that the animals in your pictures have BLACK nose & lips etc. They cannot be genetically bb (brown) like the forrest brown Saarloos and the dog born into Lorry's litter.

I recommend you go back in this topic and find my previous posts where I allready explained this. And I might even have shared some photos of the "pheomelanistic" FinnoRussian wolves.

(Edit) I helped you out and looked it up for you. Here:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...2&postcount=34

Any news about mixes by Crying Wolf?
 

Do you have any news about solving of the problem of the possible Saarloos mixes by Crying Wolf?

I received several litter advertising where breeders use the suspected lines (similar to the "red" lines from France - http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=18510). What is strange form me that on the list are also breeders from the origin countries....

Anyway we have our doubts if we should advertise the litters here on Wolfdog.org till the story will be finally solved.
Nobody of us want to be responsible for the situation where puppy buyers will get a mixed breed puppy with the "help" of Wolfdog.org.

Are there any news on this topic? Any DNA tests?

What about a special tag 'under investigation' or so? i agree it's a tricky situation! i'm disappointed to learn from reading other language forums that the origin kennel Crying Wolf is not cooperating with DNA requests. :|

Like Yukidomari, I am upset that they are not carrying out DNA tests - simple, inexpensive and would put everyone at ease (or let everyone know what is going on - perhaps this is the problem?) Until they carry out these simple tests, there is a big question mark hanging over the breed as a lot of dogs are now derived from these suspect litters.

It would be so nice to have a conclusion so that everyone can move forwards in confidence.

its very 'suspect' ...i cannot understand why they do not want to clear their kennel name.....i know i would! odd :?

It is what we a planning to do. At the moment there are some "suspected" litters on the list (for example Galiba offsprings).

I was hoping that the problem is solved or any steps have breed taken to clarify it.

We were thinking about it - but it can cause much bigger protests of the breeders using "suspected" dogs than removing the litters.

I see, you write about my pups. What is "suspected" on Galiba?

I was not writing about your puppies. Anyway not only....

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...02345&langid=1

There are more breeders writing - also here on forum - that the Galiba offsprings look more like Saarloos-alike (for example: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9708). And the French case of the red Wolfdogs seems to be a proof for it.

And the fear of the Crying Wolf breeder of making the DNA tests shows that there is really something wrong going on there.

I know all this thread, I read it .....
But what is "suspeced" on him?

with a BLACK nose - not brown or lever! That is the difference as "Jennin Lauma" wrote! It is simply genetic, but some breeders seem not to know about this...

The untypical red colours (but also atypical masks) which appear by his puppies can be advice that he he is not purebreed CsW. The DNA test of the red Wolfdogs were done in France so it is proven that the red puppies are sired by son of Galiba. Additoonally we all sa the photos of the red Saarloos living by Crying Wolf.
So the next step is the suggestion that the problem comes from Galiba and Crying Wolf kennel.

Because the breeder reject the possibility to make the DNA tests by Galiba and other "suspected" dogs by this kennel all we can do is to take "under investigation" all dogs coming from Crying wolf and related to the "suspected" dogs.

Till the case will be cleared and the DNA tests will be done...

So does that include all dogs coming from the litter mates of Galiba too?