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Old 12-03-2012, 11:12   #1
Martab
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Default (_ ! _) symbol?!?!?!??!

Dear Admin,
I just saw that my dog is marked with this "bottom like" symbol: (_ ! _ ):

http://www.wolfdog.org/site/it/dbase/d/11223#

Now, I understand that you do what you want with database, that you have problems with many Italian and foreign breeders, BUT
- my dog's mother is Iska Passo del Lupo (Miky x Fendy), which is not (_ ! _) as many other non (_ ! _ ) sons/daughters;
- my dog's dad is Will ( Upstream x Grey Wolf), which is not (_ ! _) as many other non (_ ! _) sons/daughters;
- my dog is an Italian Champion and therefore must have DNA test (Vetogene, official ENCI authorized laboratory):


I always sent to database all information about my dog, included DM results, FCI Dysplasia Certificates, Working Titles and championships documentation, litters information (never uploaded), Young and adult Bonitance results (never uploaded)....I believe that he is one of the most "controlled" and "tested" dogs with official results existing!

Moreover: Miky, Fendy, Grey Wolf and Upstream are in many other Italian and foreign Czechislovakian Wolfdogs pedigrees....if my dog is (_ ! _) I believe most of the breed is (_ ! _)!
Mine is only an example, but I see that many other pure breed dogs have this symbol ...please provide us with explanation, which cannot be different from: "sorry, mistake...."
I really hope so because if not it's all becoming ridiculous....
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Last edited by Martab; 13-03-2012 at 00:43.
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Old 13-03-2012, 11:59   #2
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Default vom Hause Norky kennel

Crying Wolf Lara ..... (!) What is the problem??
Crying Wolf Odette .... (?) What is the problem??

I do not understand .... ALL data you inject ....
Even the kennel name is deleted ....
That's a shame, is outrageous!!
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Old 13-03-2012, 12:16   #3
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Default ?????????????????????????

And....
Crying Wolf Lara have ALL PAPER AND HD SREENING the official breeding.
Your comment: "no more" breeding status.
What does it take you?

Who will explain this to me out??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

You maturity of my dogs and me .... and you do not answer ....
Thank you Admin!
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Old 13-03-2012, 13:35   #4
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I'm not Admin, and I might be wrong, but to me the -!- shows that a dog comes from a line of dog(s) that were bred by a breeder who had "suspicious" litters in his/her kennel.

Seems to me it does not concern the dog or dogs, but breeder (s). Should owners of such marked dogs imposed pressure on the "suspicious" breeders and made them test the parents of the litters in question, the problem would probably be very quickly sorted out and the marks would hopefully disapear. Simple, easy and the last chance to have it solved because dogs live much shorter than humans and soon there won't be many living dogs to test I suppose this is what some breeders count on.

If any of you finds it hard to have the breeder of his dog(s) taken blood for DNA testing, it only means you've chosen a poor and unreliable kennel.
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Old 13-03-2012, 14:52   #5
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Default vom Hause Norky kennel

The problem:
Lara Crying Wolf "clean" line, also Odette.
The suspicion arose not mixing.
And I, as a breeder .... what can I do??
There is also evidence of the shakes?
Because if not, this is slander ....

Again I ask:

What am I to do??

and
from my dog I take blood ....
and what do I get it??
We call it a mixture of my dogs?
example:
Crying Wolf Lara
Father: Hron Radov Dvor
Mother: Uma Crying Wolf
Which is mixture?
And on what basis?
Do you think the FCI pedigree certificate is false?
What it can do without proof?

Last edited by Norky; 13-03-2012 at 15:23.
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Old 13-03-2012, 16:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
Should owners of such marked dogs imposed pressure on the "suspicious" breeders and made them test the parents of the litters in question, the problem would probably be very quickly sorted out and the marks would hopefully disapear...
It could be an explanation, but it's not: in my case both parents of my dog, above, are Italian Champion and have both been tested, DNA is deposited (Iin ENCI database online both result tested with DNA deposited)...also most of grandfathers and grandmothers have DNA deposited.... but my dog is still (_!_) "bottom marked"!

There must be a mistake, this is the only answer possible
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Old 15-03-2012, 02:16   #7
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Marta, Rona can be right, because all offspring from Will breed under Passo Del Lupo's Kennel are tag as (_!_) And it's the same for all offspring from Iska
But Even if the kennel is proved to have make mix with Saarloos I don't think it's really fair to tag all dogs from this kennel with the (_!_). Because everyone who will look at this dog will think that there is a bad thing with the tag dog
+ a "CzW-like mixes breeder" tag already exist for this same purpose...

You have all my support Marta
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Old 19-03-2012, 00:42   #8
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Non capisco niente!! Cani che avevano la scritta mix due settimane fa e - non per riproduzione - ora sono (_? _) senza la scritta mix
il mio cane e` segnato con (_! _) ma i suoi genitori e nonni non hanno questo simbolo (_! _). Io sono genetista e questo non e 'geneticamente corretto ne possibile!
Ora abbiamo la certezza che l`amministratore di wolfdog e` veramente professionale, ...complimenti!!!

I do not understand anything!!!!!! Dogs that had the words mix two weeks ago and - not for breeding - now are (_? _) without the written mix - not for breeding. `
my dog has (_! _) but his parents and grandparents without this symbol(_!_).
I am genetist and this is not 'genetically correct and possible!
Now i sure that the wolf dog administrator is very professional!!!!!
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Old 19-03-2012, 17:56   #9
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Dear Admin!

If you have evidence for the symbols, write it down for everyone, if you don't, then take down the symbols immediately.
Because if someone goes to the court, you will have to pay much if you don't write down the truth.
I'm sure all of us would like to know the meaning behind these symbols, but we still have no answers for them. I only write something about someone if I can back it up with proof. Or is the money leading you to wreck other's reputation apart? This way, you'll never become a good dog breader.

I'm waiting for your answer, even in PM.

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Old 19-03-2012, 18:45   #10
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I think Admin had made mention of this upcoming change in earlier posts. For example:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...30&postcount=6

Though the thread was primarily about French dogs, it can be applicable to all dogs where there is reasonable question as to the integrity of their pedigree.

I believe - again, my belief, Admin may clarify later - that all the marked dogs are basically on a 'to-watch' basis. Not that they have been proven to be. And if DNA tests will be done all the marked dog and all earlier marked generations, it will be clarified.

At this point I think many dogs from Crying Wolf kennels are marked if the stud used was also a dog residing at Crying Wolf (and not if the stud dog is belonging to somebody else and living elsewhere). It is because there is evidence that the purported sire on the pedigree is not who was actually used (for example, appearance of red-colored dogs). It doesn't even mean the marked dogs are possible mixes - it could be that the stud dog is a CZW, just not the one on the pedigree.

I guess a dog can also be marked if in their shared litter there were very suspicious dogs which may be mixes..

There are a lot of IFs..

But at the same time one cannot deny there are some 'funny' and 'miraculous' things showing up in litters! I think it would be in everyone's and the breed's best interest to seek the resolution of their dogs' pedigree.
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Old 21-03-2012, 10:38   #11
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Admin, if you had time, in the last 10 days, for putting this "ass symbol" (_!_) on all the lines you wanted in the database, I think you can find 5 minutes for answering to all these people asking for an explanation, specially considered that they are the same people who helped you in updating the database.
You must have had a reason for doing it: share it with us because as you can easily understand having the dog "NO MORE suitable for breeding", without any logical reason, is defamatory
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Old 21-03-2012, 11:20   #12
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as I can understand it, the admin put all this symbols to dogs, who come from breedings from mix-kennels, where are not standard pupps born - you can see the mixes in them and also theire parents... all crying wolf pupps born after 2004 are there and some french kennels... the reason is because of the "red" pupps", because of some tests, realy not csw standard look (i mean not with falust, but the "other wolf" look)... its because of the reason to stop inserting mixes into pure breed.
im sorry for all of the owners, who have such dogs and it ruins theire breeding. but on the other hand, I can understand, that this is a way (radical way), to show all the mixes... but I must write also, that this is showing on someone without any proof (in some cases)... I wish, all the breeders, who breed such dogs, made some tests (i mean the crying wolf, de la louve blanche,...) so there are no doupts anymore. the cooperation with breeders is the way... if they are pure, as they say, there is no problem (or should not be) to make some tests... and it will clear everything... just a test. if the costs are problem, I would say only one - you get so much money for selling such "pure and wolfy" pupps, that this price of test is nothing.
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Old 21-03-2012, 11:24   #13
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thank you Ieila, but my dog and both the parents of my dog DO have DNA test deposited. This means that the test is useless, because my dog is nevertheless marked as (_!_), and that there is NO WAY of erasing it
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Old 21-03-2012, 11:44   #14
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now I understand you, ou are right. but you know, this is a private server... the admin can do, what he wants. but if the dogs have tests, then he should realy get of the symbol.
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Old 21-03-2012, 12:53   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leila View Post
this is showing on someone without any proof (in some cases)....
I agree, this is a problem...

However, nobody seems to have even a trace of idea how to obtain the proofs. If the dogs are under their owners' custody all the time, the latter refuse to test them, giggle right into the faces of all who care about the breed, and cynically repeat "proofs, please, proofs", what can be done?!

Maybe somebody knows how to obtain the key dogs' blood against their owners' will, and collect the proofs? Employ a veterinary mafia? Hire kynological detectives? Or better... vet-burglers () who will break into the kennels and steal the dogs for half an hour Maybe Admin should hire MI5 or beg UFO for help? Anybody has more realistic suggestions?

Alternative solution is to do nothing and wait long enough for all the dogs whose blood could help solve the problem pass away.

It's not against you, Martab; but without cooperation, solidarity, join efforts of all caring, affected and non-affected owners and breeders the problem will never be solved. If people keep repeating "why me, my dogs are OK, I have nothing to do with it" very soon there will hardly be any pure vlcaks. In this case waiting is like waiting for Godot!

Instead of moaning and accusing the Admin, Margo or Santa Claus, or whoever of whatever I suggest all owners and breeders should start acting immediately to sort the mess out asap.
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Old 21-03-2012, 15:17   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
Instead of moaning and accusing the Admin, Margo or Santa Claus, or whoever of whatever I suggest all owners and breeders should start acting immediately to sort the mess out asap.
Exactly, the owners should contact their breeders and ask them to check the dogs instead of attacking people, who just try to save the breed from mixes...
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Old 21-03-2012, 15:35   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaiva View Post
Exactly, the owners should contact their breeders and ask them to check the dogs instead of attacking people, who just try to save the breed from mixes...

I insist: this is not the solution, because MY DOG HAS THE DNA TEST, HIS PARENTS HAVE DNA TEST, AND HE IS STILL (_!_)
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Old 21-03-2012, 15:44   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leila View Post
this is a private server... the admin can do, what he wants
You are right, I know it is like this.
But then I -as a "private person" - feel free to start any legal action I wish to carry out against what I assume to be a defamation through a public web site
But given that I'd prefer to spend my money and my time otherwise....I insist for the Admin to answer and correct wrong data

This is not a jungle, and Admin is not The King Of The Breed... it should be a space where people share information according to rules which must be (I don't expect..."agreed together in harmony", but at least) predictable and understandable!

PS: Leila I quoted you but I understood we are saying the same thing, I repeated it only because admin instead of answering mixed several posts from different TDs
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Last edited by Martab; 21-03-2012 at 16:01.
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Old 21-03-2012, 19:03   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martab View Post
thank you Ieila, but my dog and both the parents of my dog DO have DNA test deposited. This means that the test is useless, because my dog is nevertheless marked as (_!_), and that there is NO WAY of erasing it
No one knows yet what does mean the symbols (_!_) and (_?_), if your dog have DNA test also as its parents, till the imported dogs from SK and CZ, then, probably the symbol (_!_) does not mean that he is a possible mix, but that he comes from a breeder who breed and agree with mixes (??).
We can assume then that the (_?_) are dogs without DNA test coming from suspicious kennels - so, the mixes till it be proved the contrary by DNA test.
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Old 21-03-2012, 19:14   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
No one knows yet what does mean the symbols (_!_) and (_?_)
Someone did put it according to some criteria! And this someone (the Admin, I imagine) must explain it..it's absurd that we are here trying to interpret a thing that isn't a bug in the database, but the result of someone's decision...
As for the kennel, my dog already had written that came from "Passo del Lupo horrible breeder non FCI mis sarlosish creatures.....etc etc", but here is very different, the single dog is indicated ad "not suitable for breeding", and there must be a reason which is different from the breeder, also beacuse other Passo Del Lupo Crying Wolf etc....are not (_!_) even though they come from the same breeder
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