Differences in HD-evaluation

[Pavel]

Dear Ina,

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

The FCI classification for HD-x-rays is clear for every country.

here I would like to little bit correct your sentence. FCI clasification ist clear for MOST countries, but not same for ALL. See this page, where are compare the HD valuation systems in some FCI coutries.
But whats absolutely clear. If have dog in CZ from MVDr. Sterc HD 2/3 (its means on one hip light dysplasia and other one middle dysplasia) and in Poland HD A = 0/0 (free of dysplasia), then is something wrong. Doesnt matter, which system of valuation using in CZ and Poland. We can discuss, if in CZ have dog 3/3 and in Poland 4/4, because maybe then polish system would have little bit other clasification of heavy HD. Same could be in CZ 1/1 and Poland 0/0 (1/1=B = HD suspicion = not positive HD). But the first case shows, that dog have in Poland absolutelly healthy hip joints and in Czech are this same hip joints ill and its not acceptable.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Thank you Pavel, I was searching for this page some days before. What I meant was the same, there is an agreement about wich hips with what Norbergdegree and ohter joint sings get about what classification of HD. Some use the B, some only A and C or numbers instead, some classify both hips, some only the the side that is worse. But I don´t know any country where a dog with a Norberg degree of 105 or better and normal hips would get worth than B, like a case in your country I heard of, it is impossible (or should be) that you get an Free and an Middle classification.
Middle means a Norbergdegree from about 90-100 with severe changements in bone and joint structure, there is a too big difference to Free and one classification class inbetween. Everybody can make mistakes, but if such a difference occures regulary than something is wrong and the system has to be checked.

Ina

[Margo]

We spoke more about this problem during the weekend. And is seems worser that I though. I heard about dogs whith perfect hips (according the report written by Sterc) and HD result C or D. What's funny - the difference is not only between results in Poland (or other countries) and Czech Republic but also between vets in Czech Republic. You can ask 'alexa', 'Mirkawolf1' about the x-rays of their dogs (and their puppies). But the best example is Lucie Novoveska - she works in a veterinary clinic in Liberec. They make a lot of X-rays of German Shepherd Dogs, Labradors and also Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. And the story is like this:
"We make some HD-results of differents dogs. Sometimes we have a GSD and CzW. CzW has much better hips but some weeks later we get the results: GSD gets A(0/0) and CzW C(2/2)...." (the X-rays are judges by different vets).

So after it the results is - a nice dog with HD-C (by Sterc) makes witout any problems 100 km run with a good time but nobody will ever use him because nobody wants to cover bitches with HD-C males... Even if the hips are really good....

We will see - maybe it will be possible to make any changes. I hope we will speak about this problem during the conference in Prague in February. Because if it will stay so the breed will really disappear...but only in CZ. In other countries there are no problems like this even if the breeders use dogs imported from CZ....

[Huan]

Next example that I heard last Saturday: a dog with perfect hips and 108 degrees on both hips and the result was HD-B. It's not funny anymore...

[Wolfsirius]

In FINLAND is same situation. WITH almost EVERY BREED.
Vet says A/A mostly came back C/D or D/D, also, vet says C/D could came back A/A. And with wolfdogs. I don't send anymore any x-rays to kennelclub, for me is enough what my vet says, and what i saw myself.
X-rays of Spinonis i have to send, cause it is in breedingrules. And 2 last i sended left from vet A/B both, and came back B/D and C/D.

-Suski

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Przemek

Next example that I heard last Saturday: a dog with perfect hips and 108 degrees on both hips and the result was HD-B. It's not funny anymore...

This could be right, the degree is not only judged by the Norberg degree but by other signs too, in Germany a degree of 105 or better but with a slight divergence (I hope it´s the English word for it too) in the joint means B, B is a normal (not HD)hip within normal range of genetic variation.
But a degree of 105 or better can´t get worse than B.

Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolfsirius

In FINLAND is same situation. WITH almost EVERY BREED.
Vet says A/A mostly came back C/D or D/D, also, vet says C/D could came back A/A. And with wolfdogs. I don't send anymore any x-rays to kennelclub, for me is enough what my vet says, and what i saw myself.
X-rays of Spinonis i have to send, cause it is in breedingrules. And 2 last i sended left from vet A/B both, and came back B/D and C/D.

-Suski

I don´t know the expert-system in Finland, but we had this case here several times too, the vet who did the x-ray judged different to the official one. I tried to get as much experience as possible in this then and must admit the official vet was right in every case I saw, since I got involved with judging x-rays for degrees by breeding myself I look at them differently than I did when I looked at them as orthopedic cases.
If you don´t agree with the judgement in Germany you have the possibility to get a judgement by a superiour expert with new x-rays that have to be taken in an university radiology. We did this once with two dogs, three experts looked at the x-rays without contact to each other, they gave exactly the same degree, the housevet gave one of them two degrees better. The problem in the Czech republic is as some of the breeders there told me, that the superiour judge is not really independent.

Regards Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

This could be right, the degree is not only judged by the Norberg degree but by other signs too, in Germany a degree of 105 or better but with a slight divergence

We spoke about it (again) during the meeting in Hostivice. It seems to be really a big problem even by Sterc. There are some cases where the protocols were the same (the same degrees, the same look of the hips) by two dogs but the dogs have different HD-results.... So even Hartl says we have to find a solution for it - not with Mutaras but simply to find out what is true. He suggested the endurance tests but there are other problems. Aso. Aso.....

Simply said: it is imposible that the whole CzW population will be judged by one vet (or one committee).
So we have to find out where is the problem - if Sterc is too hard or other vets to mild while judging the results. Because in the first case we will get a very reduced population and it brings huge problems in the next generations. In the second case we will get dogs similar to some other breeds where dogs already with C can't run a lot....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello Margo,

the German experts that judge HD are all associated in a ring that meets at least once a year for education and training to make sure that they all judge the same way and are on the newest scientific level. They allready have members of other countries and new members would be very wellcome I can bring you the contact adress to Nitra if the Czech vets would be interested. I think this would be very helpful to get the HD results on one level in all FCI countries in future times.

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

the German experts that judge HD are all associated in a ring that meets at least once a year for education and training to make sure that they all judge the same way and are on the newest scientific level.

Do you mean "Gesellschaft für Röntgendiagnostik genetisch beeinflusster Skeletterkrankungen bei Kleintieren"? I also think it could be a very good solutions - if there will be more vets on this list we can make HD-results only by them and have comparable results.....

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I think that was the name but I´m not sure, it´s a association of specialists where all German experts are members in. We had one of them talking at a club meeting and got the information of him that every vet out of another country that is involved in HD and other orthopedic judgement is very wellcome to join them. They want to get an even level in judgment in all countries too.
I will send you his adress in a private mail.

Ina

[Koos]

Hello,

In spite of the strong international rules about HD, there can be and is a possibility that the results are different in the several countries.

Holland had for a few years ago the rule, that dogs over the weight of 25 kg cannot get the HD A status. By changing of the international rules from a few years ago, now it is sometimes that a dog can get HD A.

So there are still differencies between the several countries.

Letty

[saschia]

Holland had for a few years ago the rule, that dogs over the weight of 25 kg cannot get the HD A status. By changing of the international rules from a few years ago, now it is sometimes that a dog can get HD A.

Is this possible? Thank God it is no longer valid, it would be awful!

I know that the only country where these rules are not exactly respected is Czech Republic, where an HD B could be, for strange reasons, HD C or even HD D!

It's the other way around, as I know thare was a problem in Czech rep. that the vet the club had for HDD esimation gave worse marks to dogs, which would get better marks by other vet. Probably Margo would be able to tell you more. But in Czech rep. and Slovakia the HDD marks mean the same as in other countries.

[Pavel]

I dont think, that is important, if we speaking about HD "A", "B" etc. or "0", "1" etc. Yes, the systems can be different in any country, but the important is, if the dog is healthy or not. Doesnt matter, if the sign for HD-free is "A", "A1", "0" or any other. But its just in this forum little bit off topic. We starting here to speak not about HD valuation systems but about problem, when is breeding on dogs without any HD valuation.

[Navarre]

Could be off-topic but it is important : in Italy the CSW Club admit to reproduction only HD A and HD B, so a dog HD C in Czech Rep. could not be used as a stud, even if he is an healty dog (maybe HD B in Italy)

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Navarre

There are international and clear rules about evaluating HD , I can't understand why everybody say that in their country is so harder than in other countries!

I would not say harder but different. And it depends not from country but from a specific vet. One will be more stronger, another more mild. So there are visible differences even between two vets in one country.
The biggest problem is there are no concrete rules to judge HD - ony hints and general specification....

Originally Posted by Navarre

I know that the only country where these rules are not exactly respected is Czech Republic, where an HD B could be, for strange reasons, HD C or even HD D! Is this right ?

It is not exactly about Czech Republic but about Dr.Sterc which was even much more precise than the FCI rules. He determined the HD-degree basing only on the angles. It means dog with healty hips where the angles are not more than 105° get by him C even in in other countries such dog would be A or B....

Originally Posted by KoosLetydeGraaff

Holland had for a few years ago the rule, that dogs over the weight of 25 kg cannot get the HD A status. By changing of the international rules from a few years ago, now it is sometimes that a dog can get HD A.

How it was possible? Healty hips with good angles mean always HD-A. None of the categories for judging the hips include the weight of the dog...

Originally Posted by saschia

But in Czech rep. and Slovakia the HDD marks mean the same as in other countries.

That's right. In Slovakia you have also second interesting thing - the endurance runs. According to Hartl they say much more about the hips than only the x-rays. Because it includes not only condition of the hips but they functionality and also if a dog has correct built of the body and angulation of the legs.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Could be off-topic but it is important : in Italy the CSW Club admit to reproduction only HD A and HD B, so a dog HD C in Czech Rep. could not be used as a stud, even if he is an healty dog (maybe HD B in Italy)

I see you have similar rules as the most breeds clubs in Poland (only breeders of heavy dog breeds accept also HD-C). We want to make the same (breeding right only with HD-B and HD-A) after we will have our own club here....

But it is a pitty you were not in CZ this weekend because we had club conference and there were voices we should leave Sterc (because he is good vet even if he makes an mistake ) but maybe take for breeding dogs with HD-D and HD-E if they will pass specific endurance tests. Some people simply do not unterstand why is it so important to have similar HD-results as in other countries.

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Margo

but maybe take for breeding dogs with HD-D and HD-E if they will pass specific endurance tests.

??? Nice ! A young CSW with good muscles maybe can pass a long run test, but we all know that displasy become worser in old age. And we know tha HD depends also by genetics.
I personally wouldn't buy a puppy of a csw with strong HD, even if he passed a 100km run test.

[Koos]

I agree with Navarra. A dog, well trained and has enough muskles, can do the endurancerun. It says nothing about HD. I also did several trips from 20 km with a German Shepherd with had bad hips.

By the way, our HD results are made by a committe of several vets and the vet, which has taken the x-ray pictures has no vote in the whole situation. Even we, as the owner, are not allowed to see the picture.
so we have allways to wait.

Letty

[Dharkwolf]

I would just like to clarify the difference between a functionality test (such as the endurance run) and a disqualifying test (such as the dysplasia test)

The object of the dysplasia test is to determine whether or not the dog is likely to develop a serious condition later in life which will very likely be transmissible to their offspring. This test is disqualifying because if a dog possesses such a negative trait, which is known to be composed of a strong genetic factor, then breeding with such a dog would be an irresponsible act as it would likely result in the short term in pups which are weak, and in the long term in the overall decrease in the health and usefulness of the breed.

Therefore, the dysplasia test, is essential, though the precise criteria of what does and does not constitute dysplasia are, from what I have been able to read on the subject, not clearly established scientifically. (If they were, then it would be much simpler to have an international standard for dysplasia!)

However, this does not detract from the usefulness of a functionality test. The object of such a test, for instance the endurance run, is to see if the dog performs as expected. It may or may not give an indication on the quality of the hips, but I am certain that it does give an indication on the quality of the dog. Many factors can influence the endurance run, including the morphology and condition of the hips, lung capacity, state of the tendons and sinew, overall muscular output etc… Therefore, the endurance run does provide useful information about the dog, even though it is in no way a substitute for a dysplasia test, but rather a complement to it.

For instance, even though a dog may have dysplasia A, I would still not use it for breeding if it was incapable of completing a 20 km run. Similarly I would not use a dog with high dysplasia even if it could complete a 100 km run easily. I fully agree with Hartl when he says that it is better to have BOTH the dysplasia and the functionality test. Anyone who believes that the run can be a substitute for the dysplasia or vice versa has failed to comprehend the usefulness of these tests.

Bottom line: Know your dogs well. Know your breeding dogs particularly well… because not only are they going to take up an awful lot of your time, they are what you will pass onto future generations of wolfdogs, and will ultimately determine if the breed thrives or doesn’t.

[saschia]

Dharkwolf - thanks for interestng insight. I agree with you that the endurance test does not substitute the HDD test. But on the other hand, it can show you, what the results of the test really are.

HDD A dog may not be able to complete the run because it is kept in cage all its life, no stamina etc. because of the owner... On the other hand, if a dog has HDD C, has completed the 100 km run twice in his life and in 9 years of age is still healthy without problems with hips, it also tells something - that either the tests are too stringent, or that the reason for the mark is not reaaly causing problems in dogs (if they are trained properly). Now you can speculate on the training, but it is well know that both too much training and too little of it are not good for health not only in dogs.

Therefore I think it would be very interesting to study the correlation in different traits of the HDD (as for example the angles etc. - please note that I know about HDD only what I found on these pages in discussions, so somebody else should say what traits can have different effects) with development of the problems and in what age are they developed and if it can be somehow affected by training and then consider these results for further breeding.