Differences in bonitations...

[saschia]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And I am wondering why Sona who knows that Gorbi has a problem let him pass with P 1???

Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

I can assure you that Gorbi didn't get the marks he got wrongly. He panicked at the beginning, but then later behaved normally, not only during measurement, but also during character test, which actually took place more than an hour later. He got Og, which of course cannot prevent him from being P1, as there were no other faults.

When a dog panics in very strange situation, it is not bad. Bad is, if the dog cannot accept the very strange situation as something which is actually not dangerous. Gorbi needed to be taken away for a while, shown his place and then calmed down, and it worked.

So the case of Gorbi does not tell anything about the way faults are evaluated in different countries.

On the other hand, I feel I need to say something more about the faults, standard, and bonitation codes. Standard says how the ideal dog should look and behave like and what faults should prevent him from being considered excellent and which faults should disqualify it from shows.
Bonitation code says which faults and diversions from the standard a dog exhibits. Some of the faults do not decrease the overall mark, or do so only in combination with others. How these combinations work is a part of knowledge of judge - if you do not have a licence, you should not say that dog with such and such fault should get P14, because you do not know, how important is which trait in overall evaluation.
Still, what mark a dog needs to get to be allowed to breed is a matter of local club. If the club decides that they will breed with dogs, which have P14 because of the character, it is their decision. If the bonitation is done properly, than everybody can see, what marks the ancestors of the puppy got and if he would buy such puppy for later breeding or not. Therefore it is much worse to not give a bad mark to a dog which actually has a fault, than to give it to it and then still use the dog for breeding. After all, the P mark only tells how the dog looks overall, but it is still necessary, when choosing partners, to consider every mark individually. If you have a good female with brown eyes, for you it is much more important, that the dog has correct eyes, than that it is slightly smaller. Especially as we know that the color of eye is from 90% (if not more ) genetic, while the height is affected also by nutrition and health during dog's development.

So I think if we should discuss the differences in evaluating dogs in different countries and by different judges, that we should more concentrate on details, like what is still considered amber and what brown, what is considered
shy, insecure, mistrustful and guarded and how it is actually found out, and which faults are most important to avoid in breeding.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by mijke

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Yes Mijke, that can happen. The eye of a dog is changing throughout its life and can become darker (often does, actually). Also, it is very hard to say what is light brown and what is dark brown, as well as it is hard to say what is dark amber and what already light brown. There are thing which also develop - posture for example, movement, if the dog is young or tired or in bad condition, it can get worse marks than after some growing and training. Some thing can get better, but it is not for judge to decide if the problem is because of lack of movement or because of inborn condition. That is for you - you want to get good marks, work with your dog ! ;o)

Originally Posted by mijke

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)? And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?
Good think for example would be, if in the database the official photo of the dog was one where the dog has mouth closed, so that you could see if the lips are perfect or slightly imperfect. But that is not always possible of course.
The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by saschia

Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

Very easy answer, he is bred by us and Michael was involved and Christian has a little problem with reality-awareness and especially with us since we refused to sell him a puppy. I think we all should ignore someone that is able to insult, I think, 5 persons in one statement about a happening he didn´t join in. Telling long stories about things he also didn´t see but imagine, like he did here. And even if you both would have been there you would have the feeling you had been on a totally different occasion. Out of long years sad experience I can tell you he will go on forever if you react in any way.
I will get this cleared by a lawyer like I promised him the last time he wrote lies and give no more statements to this poor soul.


But coming back to the topic of this thread that is of much more importance than stupid fights.

Originally Posted by saschia

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. During bonitation a dog normally isn´t that much relaxed that it shows slack lips if it doesn´t really have some. What I also have seen more often are not coloured toenails what isn´t of too much importance but a thing I would also like to be able to see in the code.

Originally Posted by saschia

The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Ina

[saschia]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. ... There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Yes, this I agree with completely. I'll try to start discussion on this topic in the club.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Mijke

And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

You must thanks God because is only you take a car and drive...
for me is 24 hours traveling without stop directly only for arrive at europe ( germany) without count made some exams in the dogs 6 months before travel.

[massimo]

Christian my friend,
i'm sorry to tell you that from what i see (which is my only judgement parameter, NEVER what others tell me) mr. Michael Eichorn is capable to handle dogs and get respect from them.
From what I've seen, he has never caused violence to one of his dogs in front of me. (blue tongue seems to me a myth effect of a supposed cause...)
I must repeat... letting your dog be your boss is MORE violence to the dog than giving him some strong leash pulls or putting him on the ground.
I would give my dog to Michael if he had character problems without any doubt.
Owners of Gorbi are fantastic owners, fantastic people, fantastic friends.
They are in charge of Gorbi as much as you are of Myla. But they have time to recover and take charge, I'm not so sure if you can do the same.
Instead of saying they were wrong owners, I prefer saying they need to learn, as maybe also you should have learned in the past.

.... how long will this thread last?

[Huan]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Przemek was it who cancelled every one of my statements.

I don't remember myself removing your posts recently.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I was wondering too, a 64 cm male got P 1. But, I am in breeing for Briards - Berger de Brie - french herdings dogs for 10 years. And there it is possible and no fault, if a female or male dog is 1 cm less or more in hight as the standard says, if everything else is without faults.

I especially took a look at Briards standard and it is more strict than that of CzW. It's openly written that going below minimum is disqulification. In CzW standard there is no such sentence. It's just some people's interpretation - stop people overinterpret the stanrdard and don't say things that are not included in it. Going below minimum is a fault - TRUE. Going below minimum is disqualification - THAT IS OVER-INTERPRETING. No such sentence exists in the breed standard. Just that it is a fault since the standard says it's below minimum. If you want it to be strict change the standard. An example from Briards standard: "

  
SIZE: 0,62 m to 0,68 m for males.
0.56 m to 0,64 m for females.
The length of the body must be more important than the height at shoulders.  The general appearance of the Briard is rangy.
Penalization: Cobby dog : no Excellent.  Sizes superior to 0,68 m and 0,64 m.
Disqualification: Below the minimum.  More than 2 cm above the maximum size.

Nice and clear but... this is a quote from Briard standard.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Przemek

In CzW standard there is no such sentence. It's just some people's interpretation - stop people overinterpret the stanrdard and don't say things that are not included in it. Going below minimum is a fault - TRUE. Going below minimum is disqualification - THAT IS OVER-INTERPRETING. No such sentence exists in the breed standard. Just that it is a fault since the standard says it's below minimum. If you want it to be strict change the standard.

It happens that in the book "Ceskoslovensky vlcak", that I have here on my table, and which was written by Ing.Karel Hartl, founder of the breed, and Ing. Jindrich Jedlicka, former head advisor of the breed in CR, it says clearly, that: "Nonstandard size (insufficient height in withers) is disqualifying fault."
The standard does not need to be changed. What has to be done, is this book getting finally translated, so people stop cheating.
I don´t think that anyone would question the words of the very founder of the breed as to what is standard or not in the breed.

[Mirkawolf]

I apologise to other users here on WD for this discussion. But as I was publicly attacked here, it has to publicly end here.

My dear Margo, I have a nerve indeed. I have also patience and I have some honour, and I will defend it against your public accusations.

FIRST - I never started topic with attacks on your kennel - read the question again. I have never mentioned the name of the dog, neither the kennel nor you. But you immediately attacked me and threw accusations, which are not based on any facts and you know it. I will remind you:

- You accused me of breeding on dogs with serious disqualifying faults. That is not true and anyone can check it out - the bonitation codes of both my females are presented here on Wolfdog.org, as well as on my own website and I can proove their correctness anytime. Just for records, my dogs were bonitated by recognised experts Sona Bognarova and Monika Soukupova.

- You accused me of hiding things - not sure what you mean, probably anything from who killed J.F.K. to dysplasia of my dog. Again - these are pure accusations with a goal to throw dirt on me. HD results of my older female are online both here and on my own website and written down in Cira´s pedigree.

Ali has heavy HD, which I know from her 9 months of age and I was never breeding with her and never will. The HD result is not displayed anywhere, simply because she was x-rayed before the age required for official HD result. Ali´s state and problems are known not only to the Czech breeding commitee, my friends, the local CSW Club in Belgium, but also to Sona Bognarova, who bonitated her. And indeed, on my own website is article in two languages about the hydrotherapy that I did with my Ali. The hydrotherapy was recommended to us by Veterinary clinic in Liege and it did wonders to her movement and health. I invite everyone to come and read about Ali here.

So, Margo, at the end of the day, let me borrow your own words - "if you have nothing bad to hide you should be not afraid of any critique because you can explain everything." I also think you should "be prepared you have also to answer some problematic questions..."

I give you one last chance – you have publicly accused me of breeding on dogs with disqualifying faults. This is a fact which can be verified to be false. So either withdraw publicly your accusations and apologize, or face the consequences. It is your choice. Nobody can accuse other people publicly without having hard facts and think he will get away with it. Not even you, the law is the same for everybody. And please, don´t bother erasing this topic or posts. The whole topic has been already saved by several people ready to bear witness to the fact, changing things now would only be seen as a means of hiding evidence. The evidence of what you said will not go away.

[jasmine]

Dear Mirka,

This case, what happened with you, were happaned with anybody else in the past several times....................you must know.....you have never read any appologize in this page...................
A lot of breeders, owners were blaming in the open forums.............and it is a shame that this could happened..............but you know as well that this page is not objective....and till somebody couldn't see over her own aims (money, influence,etc) till it will continuing......fauls datas in the page...(of course bad datas and you couldn't ask corrections), wrong pictures and topics which try to cause bad reputation to some breeders, owners, dogs.............

Edit

[*Satu]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

You must thanks God because is only you take a car and drive...
for me is 24 hours traveling without stop directly only for arrive at europe ( germany) without count made some exams in the dogs 6 months before travel.

No no no. It take over 48 hours driving one way over 2000km and one week... normal is over 5000km one trip

and after all I think why?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well.

Christian

Well one last comment because it concernes the health of breed topics and therefor really is important: Hyperactivity in dogs exist and is, like in humans, a heritable neurological disorder. Children of parents with hyperactivitiy show this problem much more often than the average population. If she really is hyperactiv, what is mentioned here by the owner himself in regular terms, she should not be bred but treated with the usual drugs, together with a behavioural training.

Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

It happens that in the book "Ceskoslovensky vlcak", that I have here on my table, and which was written by Ing.Karel Hartl, founder of the breed, and Ing. Jindrich Jedlicka, former head advisor of the breed in CR, it says clearly, that: "Nonstandard size (insufficient height in withers) is disqualifying fault."
The standard does not need to be changed. What has to be done, is this book getting finally translated, so people stop cheating.
I don´t think that anyone would question the words of the very founder of the breed as to what is standard or not in the breed.

A book, no matter who wrote it, is no standard. The FCI-Standard says no such thing. Obviously Oskar Dora thinks different who is a very experienced judge and still member of the Club Comitee of the Patronage Country.

Ina

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I apologise to other users here on WD for this discussion. But as I was publicly attacked here, it has to publicly end here.


My dear Margo, I have a nerve indeed. I have also patience and I have some honour, and I will defend it against your public accusations.

DEFEND Mirka, you wrote nice long email - English language is not a problem for you so please READ YOUR OWN WORDS again!!!

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

This weekend I was on the club dog show and bonitation in Germany. EVERYBODY was speaking about "this dog" - what's going on and why YOU say the owners can not breed with him. MIRKA, you SERIOUSLY was bad to Daimon.... The damages you have done will be NEVER undone. And everything only because you find it the good way to attack us...
You are not a beginner who can say you have no idea about the breed and rules - no, you exactly knew you words are not true but you wrote them. You knowingly and intentionally was bad for this dog and destroyed the dog as stud dog. And the DOG and his OWNERS are the ONLY victims here....

WHO and WHAT give you the right to write the dog is not BREEDABLE????? He has breeding rights according the polish rules and now he also PASSED the bonitation required in Slovakia with the "very goog" note. The bonitation was made by SLOVAK judge (VERY FAMOUS AND EXPERIENCED ONE). It was made according the SLOVAKIAN RULES. In the breeding comittee were 2 judges (one from Slovakia and one from Lithuania) and former member of the Czech breeding comittee. HOW CAN YOU sneer at "different standard for CSW in Poland" when the bonitation had NOTHING to do with ANY polish rules... WHAT GIVES YOU THE REASON TO ACCUSE THIS DOG????? He was P14? NO!!!

Mirka, I never solved ANY problems and ANYTHING what was has to do with dogs on the way you suggest but I say you I will not write ANY apology to you - the only person which need them are the owners of Daimon... And they need them from you...!

If you do not understand what you have done.... hmmmm.... I have only two solutions... it will be your choice...

OR you start to disscuss like all other people on the normal way and not "I can attack everybody but when someone says something against me I will scream and threaten the person with court"....

....
OR you choose your way. In the case you will try to fulfil your threats the owners of Daimon will make the same against you... Please speak with Jesus about the it - I hope as the "cool head" he will explain it to you what it means and what will be the consequences....
In this case we will also say "good bye" to you on the forum and Wolfdog.org - I really do not want to have here ANYONE ho is behaving like this... I have enough of people who think they are the untachable VIPs which can attack ANYBODY and NOBODY can touch them.... If you are not able to make normal discussion it is DFEFINITELY not a forum for you (or people like you).

It is end of the disscusion between me and you to this topic...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by *Satu

No no no. It take over 48 hours driving one way over 2000km and one week... normal is over 5000km one trip

and after all I think why?

5.000km is a normal dogshow/workingtrial trip , for I back from São Paulo ( where I stop in airport) to Rio grande do Sul ( where I live) is about 1500km. but I have no idea how many kilometer are São Paulo > germany.
Being a survivor of Q class for 9 hours

Well, I have no doubt's about why I do it and why I intend repeat it for bring new bloodlines to my country, I love this breed since I was child and they're all I have ever wait, for ME the perfect dog breed, healthiest in comparation with any other dog breed of the same group, extremly workable, excelent behaviour and with everything good and usefull wolves have like endurance, agility and inteligence. I'm sure that here more people share the same opinion as me in this point, but this is a personal opinion.
Unhapply we all know that this breed isn't easy to select because high inbreeding spreaded, only 5 bloodlines is to little ammount for a breed like that, luckly the breed still isn't popular and so this turn the CzW world breed pretty little, everyone well informed try to knows what everyones do, that happen because every unique good blooded litter have such importance to the breed worldwide that turn important for every good breeder know how the puppies developed, if they're healty and where they are, maybe for future use sometimes.

In truth and in my very personal opinion is simply unbeliveable how can someone think in put outside breeding a healty, wolfish, tipical, correct stud with unique bloodline because 1 centimeter in a breed wich need's genetic diversity! It's something I cannot cope, I really must greetings the judge Oskár Dór for the great common sense and future sight he have, we need more judges able and with such knowledge like he!
People, czwchoslovakian wolfdogs arent german shepherds wich we can put outside breeding because behaviour problems, because something not good on standard, we dont have such genetic pool!!
Iran zemplinska Oblast is for me a good exemple of how big waste can be put outbreeding a dog because a little defect, he is a beauty blood refreshment for a good number of CzW, believe me or not futurelly dogs like he will make difference and nobody will complain with his 64cm and brown eyes.
Suppose we start now to follow a rigorous selection, only dogs at standard can mate and any dog, independent of past and lines, that have problems wich isn't write on standard or that was write on the old breed book will be put out of reprodutcion because are dogs disqualified as stud... how many work breeders will have for end with the same problem?
We will put outside reproduction a dog with new bloodline because he was 64 or 63cm, prognat maybe, and so? we will lost some well done bloodlines because stupid selection, inbreeding tends to increase and these same problems wich was avoided by selection will start appear again, like prognatism, less high and so on, remembering that the dogs will tend to comes with illness bonus because less genetic diversity, less imunity,less fertility, homozigosis in recessive bad genes... will it be good? woudn't be better, use carefully a unique bloodlined dog for up the genetic pool even if this dog isn't the "standard", but still preserve tipicity?
I really dont bother if the dog have such little problems for the standard when I will chose a stud dog, for me important is bring new and healthy open bloodlines, after this problem be solved and we have better genetic diversity we will have time to work in details selection and turn it better and better.. otherwise it will be impossible if we start already now with a rigorous selection, now when we have no conditions to do it.

Continues working serious and independand of where you live you will help in the evolution of the breed, want's better excuse for accept travel far away only for mate dogs or bring new bloodline?

Really, this isn't the first topic I see Czech people saying that Czech bonitation or Czech club is better or more rigorous than Slovakians, I can say that this pass a really bad image of the Czech Club even for who not know Czech Club and his rules personally (like me), seems that Slovak club is so superior and self-secure that don't need bother writing who is the best. I have nothing against Czech or Slovaks, please, I know have excelents breeders in the two sides as pretty serious work, but is what it seems for who read it from outside, so, please, try avoid comments like that.

best regards to everyone and please, think in the poor souls wich live far away and depend of Bonitations, photos and more relyabe informations about the dogs before think in make a big travel for try a mate.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I was really disappointed when I read that Daiva is using electric collar for training. Daiva in germany electric collar is forbidden!!! And no one needs this damned thing.

You think he is forbidden? I have others informaton from IPO trainers from Germany. Maybe it is forbidden but only official - almost all shephard breeders in your country use it.

What can I say, my friend Miguel visit Geryon and I saw it from a few meters away. He behaved to people very friendly and well.

Yes, on meeting and in Germany this weekend. And both be happy about this meeting

But when I passed thru with Myla and Tala about 40 m away he started barking at us and jumping in his leash which was around a tree.

And for You this in anormal reaction? dogs see others dogs and are happy to see new dogs

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well. I can not understand why it was not possible for you as a sooo experienced breeder, judge and so on, that you were not able to handle your own dog?

Your Mila is hyperactiv? hmm interesing.....
If You think in this metod - this is only Yours mind. i think others

[hanninadina]

Electricity collar is for three years officially forbidden in germany! I am very sorry, one of my friends is the highest police dog trainer in lower saxony where I live. And the police does not use electric collar. And Daiva even if there are some stupids who need electricity to work with their dogs, it is very sad if someone needs it too. Even if it is you, who wrote here in several times as if you are very experienced with dogs. And please when you are sometimes not able to handle Geryon like in Hronec, don´t you think that your dog maybe does not trust you? Because sometimes he was hurt by you through electricity collar. Csw is much too intelligent and he knows even if you stood far away that hurting has to do with your comand. that is my opinion.

Przemek, you wrote here about the old standard! New standard says, 1 cm under the smallest hights and 2 cm over is allowed otherwise disqualification. And this is what I mean, it should be written in standard not more and not less. Where is the problem? Than no one has to discuss over pages what is right and what is wrong. Things must be compareable. I did not know either that there different ways how to see a bonitation. So everyone should make several bonitations in different countries.

I don´t know, I thought you are the moderator of english forum, aren´t you? Someone says, that 3 famous breeders did not give me a puppy. I think you remember that I was in your house with my 8 year old daughter when you had beautiful litter with Jolly and Borko and the puppies had been1 week old?! Do you remember? I never ask you for a puppy, I only wanted to see how other breeders were rasing up puppies and how csw are. I ask you to confirm this. Not more. And someone if not you cancelled it from forum.

Christian

[Pavel]

I must say, that Daiva said true. Electrical collar is absolutelly normally using by IPO top training (same like needle collar and string collar). In Germany too !!!
Electrical collar is very good training tool, but only for very specific using and using only under supervision of good experienced trainer. Is stupid to say, that electrical or needle collar are bad. With knife you can killing, but cutting bread as well. Every tool is good, if is correct use.

[Torsten]

I have others informaton from IPO trainers from Germany. Maybe it is forbidden but only official - almost all shephard breeders in your country use it.

that is absolutely correct….

[mijke]

Also in other countries well experienced people and trainers are using an electrical collar for specific training