Testicles

[Wolfsirius]

Testicle shortages in CsV.

How often appear?
is there any lines where appears more often?

How many dogs reported with only one testicle?
Any dogs totally without testicles?

Just wondering.

-Suski

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hello,
as far as I know it doesn´t occur very often, I only know of one case and I know quite a lot of dogs now. Dogs have to have two normal testicles on shows and bonitation so dogs with this problem shouldn´t breed under FCI rules. Do you know of any dogs with this problem?
It´s quite rare in other breeds too.

Regards Ina

[Wolfsirius]

Do you know of any dogs with this problem?
It´s quite rare in other breeds too.

Yes, only one. We have here in Finland one import male from CZ and other testicle is missing.

i think it's not rare example with GSD;s, but with wolfdogs i haven't heard about it much. We have also one SWH in Finland, with missing testicle. It's "Finnbreed" not import. But still, rare in this kind of breeds i guess.

Suski

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Kryptorchism mostly is inheritable, if you don´t use this dogs for breeding and keep an eye on increased cases in lines you normaly don´t get more cases in a breed. That´s one reason why it is so important that judges controll this mistake on dog shows.
I never had a German Shephard with this problem in my veterinary practice in 13 years now and you see quite a lot of them in Germany. One case now and then in a breed is absolutely normal.

Regards Ina

[Philippe]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hello,
as far as I know it doesn´t occur very often, I only know of one case and I know quite a lot of dogs now. Dogs have to have two normal testicles on shows and bonitation so dogs with this problem shouldn´t breed under FCI rules. Do you know of any dogs with this problem?
It´s quite rare in other breeds too.

Regards Ina

Hi, Ina,

For your information (and for everyone knowledge...), the male from the second CsV litter I have produced, Windswept Hillock's Scorpio (Falco zo Sennej x Jola z Krotkovského dvora) is a kryptorchid boy... I give it to friends for free, they don't plan to bred any dog at all, but use him in a small team of running dogs.

Philippe

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Thank you Philippe,

if all breeders would be as responsible as you there wouldn´t be any genetic problems.

Regards Ina

[Bugle]

Our boy sired a litter of 9 pups nearly 2 years ago. There were only 2 males, both only had 1 testicle. Our vet. said it was definitely a genetic fault on the dam's side, not the sire's, and that the dam should not be bred from again, which is a shame because they had such beautiful pups, but we will try again with another bitch.

[Koos]

Hello,

I wondering why it was the fault of the dam. It is an genetic problem and it can also come from the male.

Greetings,

Letty

[Bugle]

No - our vet was adamant that the fault lay with the dam not the sire, because his testicles both descended together at the correct time apparently. Out of the 9 pups, there were only 2 males and both only had 1 testicle descend.

The only way to find out for sure of course would be to breed from our boy again and see what happens. Rather irresponsible of us of course as were he to sire males with only one testicle, then we would definitely neuter him, but this would be the only way to find out for sure. The vet says that the very small risk that our dog is to blame is far outweighed by the fact that he is such a gorgeous dog that his genes should be shared - I hope she is right, because I am totally against breeding from animals with any genetic faults, and I would feel a hypocrite if anything went wrong.

[Koos]

Hello again,


I still wondering that your vet can say such a thing. Even a male with one testicle can bring puppy's, even with 2 testicles.

so tray a litter again with another male and I think, I will be sure that there are males in it with 2 testicles.

If there are males with one or non testicles, than you can be sure that the fault is by your dam.

I hope for your everything will be allright with the next litter,

Good luck,

Letty

[z Peronówki]

I fully agree with Letty - sure missing tescticles have genetic reasons but it is not posible to say who is responsible for it. There are many reasons so the only way the breeders found out is not to use males with missing tescticles for breeding. And keep eye on lines where it appears more often than by other dogs...
Of course if there is a male (or female) which gives more kryptorchid puppies than the average rate (and there are kryptorchid dogs in every litter) than you can say he/she is carring "defect genes". But there rest is juest the question of probability...

[Wolfsirius]

And some Finnish breeders/vets said that it has to come on both side.
(one testicle or missing testicles) I don't know. Never research this problem, even never had in any of my own/breed dogs. (yet)

Just from the one theme to another;
Is here anybody knowing anything about disease CA?
(Cerebellar Ataxia) It appears in airedales,spinonis,lagottos. Example.

-Suski

[Bugle]

Hmm - this testicle thing is very interesting. If I were to be 100% certain, I would not and should not breed from our boy again. But our vet was so adamant that the fault did not lie with him, I am tempted to use him again. Then if any more males were born with 1 testicle (and presumably any females would also be carrying the "one testicle gene") then I would definitely not allow him to cover another bitch again.

Even though a dog with one testicle is undoubtedly still fertile and capable of siring offspring, I believe it is totally wrong to breed from any dog or bitch with a known genetic fault. After all, this is why there are thousands of known genetic diseases endemic in "pedigrees" - breeders continuously carrying on breeding from their animals just because they look the part at dog shows and keep winning the prizes. I mustn't go down that route, else you'll never shut me up, but what attracted me to wuffs was not just their gorgeous looks, but their health as "mongrels".

A bit of a Catch 22 situation I'm in. I'll need to have another discussion with the vet before using our boy as a stud again.

[Wolfsirius]

Bugle :

I recommended you to speak with several vets. Not just one.

-Suski

[Koos]

hello,

I agree with Suski, ask several vets, what their opinions are and take your conclusion.

I think that is the best way you can do.

And by the way, about 15 years ago, I knew a German Shepherd male with one testicle. He lives with a German Shepherd female together and she came in her heat. He mated her and there were 12 puppy's born. If the puppy- males had the 2 testicles, I don't know about that, because I have never seen them.
We joked to the owner of the male, be happy he had one testicle and not 2 then you had 24 puppy's!!!! (we had contact by phone)


Letty

[mijke]

And also vets have different conclusions and opinions about this

A vet I know told me it was coming form one side: the male.

And later on he had in his kennel a male with missing both testicles. And by accident this dog had mated (because he did not expect ist was possible )

And surprise, surprise, there was a litter of 5 and all the 3 males were normal

And also all the offspring of this litter and their offspring had two testicles

And now the same vet is telling everyone the possibility comes from tow sides and a bit more from the female

greetings
Mijke

[Bugle]

At the fees that vets in the UK charge, I'll just stick to speaking to my own vet I think!!

[ligerwolve]

I have studied a little in genetics and to my understanding both parents would have to be carriers of the fault and that if you matched them with a partner that did not carry the gene that the pups would be fine. However the pups would also be at risk if bred with a dog that carried the same gene. You have to think every dog could carry the gene without it showing as the animal only inherited it from one parent. An animal that has the fault visable has inherited it from both parents but can only pass on its half of the genes so the puppy has only this half. Does that make sense, its easier to draw a diagram.

[utelover]

Hi there Bugle, Cryptorchidism (C) is something I've been involved in and I've just spent three months researching. I have loads of bumpf on it that I can e-mail to you if you like. From all the research documents I've got it would seem your vet has definately got it wrong. There is no way of knowing whether it is your dog or your bitch who carries the gene as there is no genetic test available to distinguish who carries. There a few few ways of narrowing it down though, i.e. researching lines your dogs come from and checking if any C's have been produced throughout. The only other way is to breed test both with other mates clear of the C gene (i.e. no history of it occurring) by checking father, grandfathers and brothers to see if any are affected. Some of the research can be a little mindblowing as some says that both parents must carry in order for a C or C's to be produced, others say that both genes can be carried by one parent, but in either case most research states that at least 25% of males born would be affected and that a percentage of females will be carriers. Most research shows that to be a C or a carrier of C, there must be some evidence of it recurring in either of the dogs lines. But note, iIt may skip a generation and not all dogs are affected. In one study case there were 3 males two entire (both testicles present) dogs and one C, their, father and grandfather were C. One entire brother produced, all C male pups, yet the other entire brother produced entire males?? but females carriers?. Yet in another breed with no record of the condition at all, a C appeared this was described as a congenital defect. As I've said the research is extensive but I'm happy to forward it to you.

As long as you can research all dogs related to your dam, sire to ensure it's not a reccurring problem, you should try using your bitch again, but try her and the dog with other mates (obviously ones clear of the condition). She shouldn't be damned for this as it's not proven until several matings have been tried.

Hope this helps

[Dharkwolf]

Well having read this here is my informed opinion on the issue... informed because I’ve studied biochemistry and genetics for well over ten years, so even though I might not be a vet, I do have some idea about things…

My opinion odds are Cryptorchidism is due in a good measure (I would say 90% of cases) to environmental factors, having little to do with either parent. For one thing it is a process so complex that things are bound to mess up more because of mechanical (ie the environment) or circumstantial (a little infection in the wrong place at the wrong time… so small it would go undetected, or perhaps a nasty insect bite) reasons, rather than genetic ones. There is actually some evidence for this… because a quick little search on the topic has revealed that in humans (who of course are not dogs)

The incidence in humans is: 1/3 premature male births, 1/30 live term male births, 0.8% after age 1.

Interesting because it shows that it is an environmental factor (prematureness) rather than a genetic one which results in an increased risk for cryptorchidism.

Epidemiology: all humans affected, no geographic propensity.
This too is interesting because it shows that genetics is NOT a major factor. This affects all humans uniformly, regardless of race, nationality or gender… er… ok maybe gender does matter in this case

In dogs it would be tempting to ask a vet if some races are more prone to cryptorchidism than others. If it is not the case then one might assume that no genetic factor is involved (with the genetic diversity in the different dog races, such a thing would not have been homogenously distributed) Unfortunately even if there is no “direct” genetic effect, different dog races would be affected differently by cryptorchidism because things like for instance pelvic morphology would be a determining factor (and this morphology is in fact partially genetically determined)

Right ok so this would be anathema to just about most people (Because dog breeders operate on the basis that cryptorchidism is genetically determined and thus do not breed males who do not have both testicles… but unfortunately evidence (at a glance, I did not do an in depth study so I’m open to suggestions) tends to mostly environmental factors.