European winner - France 2002

[Philippe]

Hi, all,

A real bad news for me : according to an internet site, there are just 8
registered CsV at the European Dog Show in Le Bourget, near Paris...
Compared to the 90 registered Siberian Huskies, what a poor lot!

And my dogs will represent 25 or 37 % of the total CsV, that means 2 or 3
dogs... Are there no other kennels in Europe?

Philippe

[SARKA]

Hello Philippe,

is error besause from Italy go 9 czechoslovakian wolfdogs!

--
Best regards,
Sarka

[Philippe]

Hi, Sarka,

Thanks for your correction! Hope we could meet all together and share
experience and ideas, especially concerning working trials of Csv in Italy!

Best regards

Philippe

[Huan]

Hello,

I just found on aniwa.com information about the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog who
won this year the European Dog Show in Paris. The winner is: Gar Dunor de
Louba Tar (owner and breeder M. Keizer from France). The CzWs were judged by
M. Eymar-Dauphin (France) and according to information on aniwa.com there
were 8 CzWs on the show.

Does anybody know who else were showing their CzWs there?

Greetings,
Przemek

[Huan]

The winner is: Gar Dunor de
Louba Tar (owner and breeder M. Keizer from France).

The photo of the winner is available here:
http://www.aniwa.com/images/galeries.../Preview43.jpg

Greetings,
Przemek

[Tina]

http://www.aniwa.com/images/galeries.../Preview43.jpg

what a beautiful dog!!

[Johnny]

Hallo Przemek, hallo friends,

it took me a while, but I found complete results for Czechoslovakian
Wolfdogs at the show in Paris Le Bourget. There were several lists, sorted
by dog (w/o owner/breeder but with all breeds mixed), by class (also w/o
owner/breeder and all breeds mixed), by owner (not sorted by breeds) by
breed (no owner/breeder information)and so on. So I collected all the
information and put it on a single website: all results for Czechoslovakian
Wolfdogs, sorted by class with origin book entry, adress of owner and
breeder's name (but without any warranty and I guess addresses and names
aren't really complete, sorry!)

http://www.thesongdog.de/misc/dogshowparis/ (rest of that website is out of
work at the moment)

I hope you enjoy it!

Johnny Yuma

[Philippe]

Hi, all,

Correction : there were 29 registered CsV at the show...!!!

I will post the entire list as soon as friends sent me a copy of the
catalog...and I will be able to send you some pictures too...

Now, and here is my own opinion, the European show had been the biggest scandal
of the year for the CsV in France!!!

Sorry, Ann, but Gar Dunor IS NOT a beautiful dog! He exhibits a great number
of major faults for a CsV (head, back, tail, legs, movment), like many other
CsVfrom Louba Tar Kennels (dysplasia)...

I generally don't publicly criticize any judge's advice, but today, I can't
stay quiet anymore! I (and many other people) think it's a complaisant
judgment for Mrs Keizer, a future CsV judge with a dominant position in
France, trying to impose her 'own vision' of the CsV, made by a non-specialist
judge! What a pity!

That is, I say it!!!!

Best regards

Ph. BESCOND

[Xhrista]

Phillippe ,I think you mustn't write this things,you only can think
this.The judge of the SWH's was a man that never give my dog a place ,so
I don't go to that man,a good shower nows his judges.
And France is a country that most of the time goes for his own people.

Gr. Christa

[Huan]

Hi,

I didn't say he was a beautiful dog.
I asked if he won the show or just his breed.
Does anyone know?
Ann

He won just his breed. I posted it here because it though it might be
interesting for some of you. And thanks to Johny for posting the complete
results. They are also on the wolfdog.org website (but not complete yet).

Greetings,
Przemek

[mijke]

Dear Philippe,

For years I am a breeder of leonbergers and newfoundlanders. In CzW world
I'm only a owner and "starter". But I learn and registrate a lot about this
breed!

I see the same things you mentioned, happening with other breeds on shows.
But it won't help to criticize any judge's advice publicly!
When a judge never gives my dogs (or dogs I like of other breeders ) a place
, then I don't go to shows with that judge.

When you criticize other breeders publicly, you only get a lot rumours and
quarrels. It leads to nothing and it is in time worse for the total breed.
(because the other breeders start also talking about your breed and
outsiders don't get the issue. They only think it is a mess in that breed
world)

Then it is to prefere to work together with other breeders that have dogs of
the type you like. And go together to shows with other judges and make your
own breeding lines.

Succes and best regards,
Mijke

[z Peronówki]

Phillippe ,I think you mustn't write this things,you only can think
this.The judge of the SWH's was a man that never give my dog a place ,so
I don't go to that man,a good shower nows his judges.
Gr. Christa

It is normal what you wrote: judges have their own preferences. Slovakian
judges have a preference for slovakian type of wolfdog and czech judges for
the czech type. You can see this if you look at the show results from the
main dog shows in Czech Republic and Slovakia (But don't look at the owners
of the dogs. Look at pedigrees... ). The main differences between both types
can be seen in the head of a CzW. Dogs from different countries have also
specific faults - if you see a dog then at first sight you will know their
country of origin.

But there is something what the judges can not break: the rules called breed
standard. You can have your own opinion how the best wolfdog should look
like. But you can not create you own type of breed which differs from the
standard. For example you can not have your own type of body of a
Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - it's exactly described in the standard. If you
prefer something else so you do not prefer a typical wolfdog... The same is
with proportions and measurements.

If you know a judge whose decisions are wrong (not only debatable!) then it
is not a good idea to be quiet. If he will prefer the whole time the
non-typical wolfdogs then breeders will breed only non-typical wolfdogs
because only such dogs have a chance to win.... And this is not good for the
breed...
A good, experienced judge will understand this - I promise!

Greetings,
Margo

[z Peronówki]

Now, and here is my own opinion, the European show had been the biggest scandal of the year for the CsV in France!!!
Ph. BESCOND

Philippe, you are such optimist! ))) It is only a small part of a huge
problem: the titles "World Winner" and "European Winner" are loosing their
importance. There were problems this year and also two years ago as you can
read in article writtten by Monika Soukupova "Czechoslowakian wolfdog on a
World Dog Show or what all can happen" ...

I think the main problem is: FCI wanted to have fair dog shows. You know
that an expert in this breed knows all dogs that are in the ring. So there
will be always people that will say: the dog won because the breeder is a
good friend of the judge. It was one of the reasons why FCI decided to
choose only people who have nothing to do with wolfdogs (OK, the judges
judged this breed but you can't see them on the bonitations or club shows).
FCI forgot two things: also such judges can be good friends of a breeder so
this is not a good solution of this problem. And second: you can't call them
experts... A good judge, also if he is not an expert, can be a great judge
on a international or national dog show. But he will not be able to choose
the best dog from among 20 others. Especially when there are the best
representatives of the breed in the ring. The worst thing is that sometimes
such judge gives the main titles to dogs that would have huge problems to
get the note "good" when an expert would judge them....

But don't worry: next year the European Dog Show will took place in
Slovakia. The judge will be Sona Bognarova. So at least after this dog show
we will speak about preferences and not about ignorance of breed
standard.... )

Greetings,
Margo

[Xhrista]

But there is something what the judges can not break: the rules called breed standard. You can have your own opinion how the best wolfdog should look like. But you can not create you own type of breed which differs from the standard.

====In France they can,I think they have there own breedingstandaard )))

If you know a judge whose decisions are wrong (not only debatable!) then it is not a good idea to be quiet. If he will prefer the whole time the non-typical wolfdogs then breeders will breed only non-typical wolfdogs because only such dogs have a chance to win.... And this is not good for the breed...

====I now,but I think a good breeder of a Wolfdog don't breed for
winning a show.

A good, experienced judge will understand this - I promise!

====I'll hope it with you,to many times I've had a Very Good becuase my
dog is to shy (a SWH),they only wanted a German Sheperd in the coat of
a Wolfdog.

But it is true,the breeding club can go to a judge and speak with him/or
her.

Gr. Christa

[mijke]

Hi Pavel and others,
I can subscribe a lot of your mail. I don't even go to shows to "hunting"
the titles, but to see a lot of dogs of the same breed and to meet a lot of
their owners. But I even know that everey judge have their own personal
opinion and interpretation of the standard of the total image of a breed.
(and I don't always agree with their intrepetation!)
I agree completely your statement that "Excellent" is the result for dogs,
which are very very near to ideal of breed. But in reality , for every race
is it doesn't happen in that way in shows. (Also not for my dogs; they got
many times an exelent , and in my honest personal opinion: they didn't
deserve it!) And I think this way, this manner is real very bad for the
total population of a breed.

In CsW I am a layman and "starter", but I don't think it is a big difference
with other breeds in this way. Shows today serve in many cases only for
comercial interests of some breeders. Thats's one of the reasons that a lot
of new owners of my puppy's don't want to go to official shows.
So I am glad that in Holland there are also "family days" of some breeding
clubs, for all the owners of dogs of that breed. With a funny programme and
official judges who can (onofficial) judge your dog if you want.
So you can, as a breeder, have a image of a bigger population of your breed.
But personaly I think it is tedious that is is nescesarry to do it in this
way.

In my opinion there is also a big difference in every breed between
"showdogs" and ''workingdogs". In a lot of breeds there is a lot of
difference between the type (exterior) of that dogs. (In the Newfoundlander
population there are even "showdogs" who can't swim because of their show-
fur!) Personal I think that difference is a very bad devellopment between
every race.
I am very curious about how this is in the CsW population, can anybody tell
me ?

Thanks for your reaction!
Best regards,
Mijke

[Philippe]

====In France they can,I think they have there own breedingstandaard )))

You're right, Christa, ALL breeds are born in France!!! 8-((

====I'll hope it with you,to many times I've had a Very Good becuase my
dog is to shy (a SWH),they only wanted a German Sheperd in the coat of
a Wolfdog.

But it is true,the breeding club can go to a judge and speak with him/or
her.

Right too, but we are so far from an independant CsV breeding club in France
(need to exhibit 50 birth per year for a club...). We are acting today to
obtain the right to put the CsV at work here!!!

Philippe

[Philippe]

Hi, all,

Just another comment about the European Dog Show : I hoped to see some of
you, czech and slovakian (dutch, german, polish...) breeders, showers,
owners or lovers, and there were just french, dutch and italian people... I
was a few disapointed!

Philippe

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Just another comment about the European Dog Show : I hoped to see some of you, czech and slovakian (dutch, german, polish...) breeders, showers, owners or lovers, and there were just french, dutch and italian people... I was a few disapointed!
Philippe

I just wanted to tell you that a litter of nine healthy puppies was born in our
kennel (Zlata Palz), on nov 5th and then I saw what´s going on after the European
Dog Show.I totally agree with Philippe on this matter.By the way,this is one of
Mrs.Keizers better dogs.So judge about the rest... Are you sure Philippe,that the
winner was a pure bred Csv?
But you can not only blame the judges,they play just a little role in this whole
dog show theatre full of vanity,self-deception and of course business.Victims
will be our breeds.For some it is already too late and lots will follow.
And the "good" news that Mrs.Keizer will be a judge for our breed makes me smile.
Anybody is free to avoid the shows she will be judging.
And it makes me laugh if I see the results from those title hunters with a BOB in
a dog show with three dogs (of course from their own kennel)in a small town in
Alaska.Above from the three reasons I already mentioned the worst thing would
be,if its not a good dog,they believe its one and breed with it.
Best thing is to go to dog shows with respectable special judges for our breed
and to the various bonitations during the year.
So Philippe, guess why we didn´t come to Paris.
And don`t be too harsh with "mashilo" she doesn`t know the breed very much and
has little opportunity to meet many wolfdogs in America.

Best regards,Michael

[Pavel]

Great answer Michael, you surprise me ),

Mrs.Keizers better dogs.So judge about the rest... Are you sure Philippe,that the
winner was a pure bred Csv?

Here is maybe the basicaly problem, do you know about it ... ?

And the "good" news that Mrs.Keizer will be a judge for our breed makes me smile.
Anybody is free to avoid the shows she will be judging.

Finally some objective judge, which breeding the CsW only to improve the
breed and have lot of succeses (working certificates, show titels from
countries of origin and mostly all dogs are bonitated) ))).

So Philippe, guess why we didn´t come to Paris.

I have absolutely same opinion. You can see, that in the past I traveled
with my dogs around all different shows. But its no sense. When I come
to show and Hoky get BOB in competition very nice other CsW, then its no
sense. Today I select very much the shows and go mostly to club shows or
shows, where we meet more CsW. E.g. the german special shows are not
perfect as well, but I like it, because the absolutely top atmosphere
and for most people is the results only a unimportant thing.

I wish you all a nice rest of day

Pavel with whole pack

[Koos]

Hello everybody,

I had followed the discussion about the judging in Paris. Unfortunately it
happens everywhere when judges don't know the race. Even when they know a
lot about the race they are judging then it is a problem when a judge is
showing his own dog. Most of all comes the judge who is showing at the first
place because they know eachother to well and they will don't blame
eachother: I hope, that you all know , that Mrs Keizer is also a judge for
the CSV, Schapendoes and as far as I know also the Dutch Shepherd. She is a
judge in France. So the results were not so strange.

Letty de Graaff