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Old 13-07-2002, 20:55   #1
Ezio
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Default Hypothesis of protocol to 'monitorize' the breed.

Dears , we have a threaten ! and I am asking for YOUR HELP !
Here in Italy somebody provided hairs and blood of some CSVs to a researcher who was studying the Italian Wolfs .
This scientist after few months ended with the results (published in an University press article) of his study : the CSV is ''dangerously similar to the wolf from a genetic point of view'' .
This statement while scientifically questionable ... but who is going to argue about this ???? !!! .... while scientifically questionable has put some doubts or better some threatens among the people belonging to WWF and deeply engaged with the ''SAVE THE ITALIAN WOLF'' campaign also sponsored by WWF.
Then ... somebody had the FUNNY idea to propose a project of law to the Italian Congress asking to sterilize all the CSVs registered in Italy so they cannot pollute the genetic peculiarities belonging to the Italian wolf ... just in case the CSV would be left abandoned roaming around the Italian mountains and forests .
This is a problem for Center Italy and not for North Italy (where the wolf is NOT any more present since centuries ago) .

By the way ... it might be that the funny project of law will go to the congress by summertime ... and profiting from the fact of the holiday time = lack of important things do be bothered and lack of congress men . ... + the support coming from the powerful lobby of mislead WWF people ... it might be ... I say it might !!!!!!!! ... the law could be approved and then the Government could be obliged to ask for the sterilization of the entire population of CSVs ....

I know this is CRAZY ! but believe me , in Italy everything is possible even the funniest and most tragic things .... and I don't want to take any political position .

PLEASE, can anybody provide some scientific evidence of total diversity between CSVs and wolves ?
Can anybody provide scientific probes about the difficulties found while trying to cross wolves and dogs or CSVs ?

I should like to have some scientific material supporting my believes (and my friends also) i.e. : CSVs ARE DOGS ! and they share NOTHING with wolves ... they just have some physical similarity but nothing else ... so ... either the Italian Gov. should sterilize all the DOGS independently from their breed either they should JUST FORGET these funny theories ! ...
The risk of having dogs freely roaming the mountains and the forests IS SIMPLY NOT AVOIDABLE !

To close this request of help I should like to point to the facts that PEOPLE (in GUILTY good faith ) should GIVE UP SPEAKING about CSVs LIKE BARE WOLVES ... IT IS A VERY BAD HABIT AND NOT DESERVING ANY GOOD TO OUR BELOVED CSVs ... at the opposite they can scare people in a USELESS WAY .
The CSVs IS A DOG and NOTHING ELSE ! and A VERY LOVELY TEMPERED DOG
despite his wild looking .

Speaking about ''barely wolf'' is JUST A SILLY WAY OF ADVERTISING to gather commercial interest and commercial opportunities between people willing to have something VERY WILD at home .... and after few months they will get rid of the toy because bored by his behavior and bored by the engagements related to a nice animal like this (not a toy!!!).
To sell CSVs in this way it might generate BIG TROUBLES to the CSV breed.


Sincerely

Ezio Lucenti
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Old 13-07-2002, 22:09   #2
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But - isn't the CSV very closely related to the wolf? And even a bull dog f e is 98,9% wolf (they share this amount of the same genes). So - how woulf you be able to prove that?

Sanna
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Old 14-07-2002, 06:02   #3
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Hello, My name is John Yestrebsky from the U.S.A. my wife and I own Arka Z Karlova Doupete.
What a coincidence to have your e-mail appear just as my we are fighting our State Government (Indiana) about the CSV.
It seems that our State considers the CSV to be wildlife and thus does no t recognize its rabies vaccination. This means it is discriminated again st other dogs and must be killed and have its brain examined if it would bite anyone (unlike other dogs with a rabies certificate). The people at the State level basically said it was a matter of the dogs name and that it was not a recognized dog breed by our American Kennel Club. Perhaps the dog breed name should be changed or something as our State is not bas ing it on scientific evidence, but prejudice.
Good luck and any info. you receive may help our case, as we are in the p rocess of fighting this. Basically when people hear "wolfdog" in the Uni ted States they think of wolf-hybrids with direct cross to wolf. I belie ve we will be hiding her breed name from now on until we resolve this iss ue in our State.

Sincerely,

John Yestrebsky
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Old 14-07-2002, 07:10   #4
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Great suggestion as I am learning this. It is hard for me to decide to f ight this all the way to the courts, or drop it and find a new veterinari an and list her as you say.
I simply want her to have the same rights as any domestic dog, at least i n my state. All states in the U.S.A. have different views. My first vet erinarian had no problems, but when I changed vets, the second questioned the breed to the state level without my knowledge. I believe that this is an excellent suggestion you made and perhaps all breeders should menti on it.
I am proud of my dogs breed, but will hide it to protect her.

Thanks,

John Yestrebsky
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Old 14-07-2002, 08:09   #5
Villulv
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In Sweden we just refer to all the crossings with wolf as just "mixed breed", as to avoid the negative response and problems you describe that you have experienced in USA.

Sanna
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Old 14-07-2002, 21:23   #6
Baryonyx
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In the United States, it is purely dependent upon state. We were the owners of the late
Ayak od Divisu, and we lived in New Jersey. There was absolutely no problems with him
here, since New Jersey law refuses regulation of wolf-dog hybrids, essentially
considering them as dogs under all circumstances. Other states have tremendously outdated
and downright nasty and hateful regulations (Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Dakota, New
York, New Hampshire, vermont, and Maine are examples)

Indiana's laws, curiously, don't seem to reflect what you're describing, unless my
reference has not added a law made up in the past 6 months. Here's what they have for
Indiana:

INDIANA

A Class III wild animal permit is required for each individual wolf. Additionally, a USDA
permit must be possessed by the owner for each wolf. Wolf Hybrids are not regulated by
the state and do not require a permit.

Indeed, Indiana is also one of the few states that actually allow people to own
full-blooded wolves!For more information on laws in the 50 states concerning wolves,
dogs, and wolf-dog hybrids, please use this link:

http://www.wolfdogalliance.org/legis...statelaws.html

This provides the most up-to-date references for state laws concerning wolves and
wolf-dog hybrids.

As for the situation in Italy, when I was in the Czech Republic researching the CsV in
2000, I bought a book by Ing. Karel Hartl, whom I recall was the originator of the breed.
I cannot remember the name of the book now, but my fiancee, who is Czech, read the book
and translated passages on the lineage of the CsV. I was satisfied by what I saw, and in
general, if (if I recall) all CsV's are genetically descended from 5th generation
wolf-dog crosses (that is a wolf and dog the first generation, and dogs for the next
four) the percentage of "wolf's blood" in most CsVs should not exceed 30%, and the
genetic lineage is more akin to the German Shepard than the CsV.

Whoever did that "research" sounds to me like a paid government stooge. While he is
technically correct in his assertion that a CsV could mate with a wild wolf, that is an
issue with each and every dog in Italy, not just the CsV. Each dog could potentially
violate the integrity of the wolves, and indeed has probably happened significantly in
the past. I hope cooler heads prevail.

Hope this helps!

Sincerely,

Chris Behrens
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Old 14-07-2002, 22:13   #7
John Yestrebsky
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Chris, Thanks for your input. It does help. I guess the main problem is that my problem exists with the state administrative code that regulates rabies vaccinations. Basically we are arguing that the CSV is an accept ed dog breed and does not fall under the same class as a wolf-hybrid in I ndiana. I was told by the state Epidemiologist that the rabies manufactu re only labels the vaccinations use for "domestic animals". I guess it's up to us to prove that Arka is a domestic dog and not a wolf-hybrid whic h they seem to take as a direct cross like a half-breed. Thanks again fo r the web address.

John Yestrebsky
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Old 15-07-2002, 09:18   #8
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Default Please help

Hello everybody,

i have read this mailing list, and i must say it seems to me little bit crazy.
There is absolutely no difference between wolf and dog, because they both have the same genetic potencial.
Thus, every dog if it runs away into wild and survives, may be teoretically able to threaten the wolf population.
Of course, chances to do it differs according to the breed, such chihuahua, chow-chow or shar-pei are hardly
able to survive outside, than if escapes shepherd or malamute.
Please note that if dog escapes into wildnerness, it automatically doesn=B4t mean it will go to see the first
wolf pack and easily joins it! Most probably the wolves will kill the dog, or avoid it, and they won=B4t let it to enter
the pack. It=B4s absolutely the same as if some renegade wolf would come and want to join the pack. It would have
to face the alpha male of the pack and win, and with a dog, this chance is quite low.
There can be exceptions of course, but the chance the dog will meet weak and sick alpha male, or even lonely
wolf female willing to form a pack with a dog, is truly small.
And after all, who is able to proove, that the wolf population is absolutely clear and free of any "dog pollution"?
Wolves migrate and they can cross even among themselves, within the so called subspecies, so there is no
real chance to say, that this wolf is pure wolf and this wolf is not.
If there is any wolf threatened by pollution, it is red wolf living in USA, who is almost extinct and was forced to
mate with coyotes, because it was almost impossible for two species of red wolf to meet in the wild. Now,
people are not sure, if to consider the wolf for wolf or hybrid or whatever. But it were again people, who created
the whole problem, killing the red wolves and bring them to edge of extinction.
I would like to know, if in USA, in areas where still live wild mustangs, are all ranchers and owners of horses forced
to castrate them, so that in case of their escape they don=B4t threaten the mustang population?!
I find this study as absolutely stupid, and the whole idea with making a law even worse. Seems in summer
people have nothing better to do than create stupid ideas from nothing and trying to make them work.

Mirka Simunkova
ZOO Plzen (http://www.zooplzen.cz)

owner of Cira Krivoklatsky Atos (http://www.dogomania.com/members/cira/)
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Old 30-07-2002, 20:08   #9
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Default Please help

Dear Ezio,
Erik Zimen did a lot of research on Italian wolfes together with an Italian
scientist Luigi Boitani. Erik told us just a few months ago that all offsprings
from dogs with wolfes that they observed disappeared after one to two years, what
means that they don´t produce own offspring, what means that there is no danger
for the wolfpopulation on a longer point of view. Erik Zimen did this observation
on italian wolfes in the Appruzian region over a period of several years. So
there is already a research done directly on a wild wolfe population.
I hope this came in time to help you, you should be able to reach im over his
homepage.
Regards Ina
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Old 31-07-2002, 12:10   #10
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Dear Ann,

you are forgetting one important things. And that=B4s the REAL original name of our breed - Ceskoslovensky vlcak.
As you can notice, there is nothing about wolf in the original name. But because other countries are lazy or unable
to use the original name of the breed, they use their own names - wilczur, wolfdog, cane lupo and whatever.
So the easiest way is maybe to call the breed the real original name - vlcak, and no one has troubles.
It=A8s not really our problem, that other countries use their own names for the breed! So they should decide about
using another name for the breed, if they are not able to use the original one! Not that we here, in Czech Republic, will
start to call our dogs for example shepard or poodle or whatever, just because some moron has problems with the name
of breed.
I want the dog, and i want the dog with it=B4s name. And his name is ceskoslovensky vlcak!

And it would be nice, if you don=B4t mix the problem of american wolf-dog hybrids with our FCI recognised official breed. What Americans do with their wolf and husky (shepard, malamute, etc.) crosses, is their problem and it has nothing in common
with our breed. Such hybrids with no real idea how much wolf blood they have, and no need to speak about unexpected character
problems and possible aggresivity, are real danger for people and also wild wolf population, in case that they escape.

Ceskoslovensky vlcak is normal dog with mainly dog behaviour, recognised breed, and as such it has absolutely different conditions for keeping and breeding it. Our dogs doesn=B4t have to be kept in cages and behind high fences, with strict rules of how to treat them.
We are not speaking here about wild animal, but about working dog.

Mirka
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Old 31-07-2002, 12:11   #11
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I agree whole heartedly with Ann and think that the breed is far more
important than the name! People with little brain power fear the wolf and
therefore fear anything that is associated with it. A breed with the word
wolf in it is bound to be discriminated against by a great majority of
people. I do not think the name is particularly important, not compared to
the survival and development of the species.

This is of course only my opinion but as an someone who loves animals in
general I think it is important for us to protect them from stupidity in any
way possible.

Damaris
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Old 31-07-2002, 13:09   #12
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dear Damaris and Anne,

please, see what you are saying.. You want to convince me, that when i change name of breed, which looks like wolf, sometimes acts like wolf, loves to eat raw meat and howls, to for example czechoslovakian shepard, that it will stop ppl to doubt about it?
It's the same, like if you tell me that when i paint elephant to pink color and call him duck, it will stop to be elephant.

Btw .. vlcak means here a dog resembling wolf, yes. But the joke is, that if i say to anyone in public i have vlcak, everyone imagines immediately German shepard! People in this country are widely used to call german shepards "vlcak" and if i tell them, that i have Ceskoslovensky vlcak, they often think i am kidding!

After all, i have some news and rumours, why all this problem in Italy ocured. Some scientists there figured out, that some dogs crossed with wolves there in the mountains. And they suppose it must have been some shepherds (or wolfdogs), because they are most close (by appearance, size etc.) to wolves. So the big campaign about forbidding (or highly controling) czechoslovakian wolfdogs started. They somehow forgot, that the wolves could easily cross with other "similar" breeds, like huskies, malamutes, german shepards, belgian shepards, saarlooses etc. Funny, eh?

Another "good" reason to avoid having czechoslovakian wolfdogs in Italy is, that Italians are creating their own wolfdogs !! Please see http://www.lupoitaliano.it/ And oh my god, imagine, they named it Lupo Italiano - Italian wolf!! So what the hell is the problem of breed's name? This is truly making me smile.
It's clear, that they want to avoid concurence in having our breed in the country, they need people to support their own unrecognised hybrids.

Mirka
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Old 31-07-2002, 16:09   #13
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Mirka,
you are absolutely right and if we hadn't the "Italian
Wolf" wild (Canis Lupus) and hybrid (Canis Lupus
Italicus Familiaris) we hadn't the problem but these
remote perspectives for our puppies don't make us
smile.

Also if I don't think things that matter could happen
about Ezio's worries you have to know that the hybrid
one has also the commercial extraniation (it's
impossible to trade it) to preserve it for dangerous
genetic pollution risks ... I wish you read italian to
see what mean about the hybrid one this government
site:

http://www.camera.it/_dati/leg13/lav...azion/2249.htm

where the "camera" says that the resolution of the the
italian hybridation of the Wolf and the Dog represents
an only fact and of very difficult repeatability.

It talks about all other similar attemptings citing
Konrad Lorenz and Saarlos (obviously nothing about
Czechoslovakian) wolf-dog wrong attemptings phisically
and characterially, particularly for insufficient
adaptability to the job.

And specifically: the hybrid Italian Wolf is the ONLY
animal in the world who collect armoniously the
quality of the dog and the wolf being at all effects a
domestic animal and a work dog.

It could be enough to explode diplomatical crisis?

Ehe!

Ciao.

Stefano.
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Old 31-07-2002, 16:27   #14
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Hello Pedro,

I have absolutely no problems with italian language, since my boyfriend comes from Palermo.
So i will ask him tonight to translate the site for me.

What i think is, that it is insane to forbid recognised breeds to preserve some hybrids. After all,
every cross-dog is sort of hybrid and as such should be preserved? I hope not!

And if the hybrids are so great working dogs, why there is need to preserve them from mixing
with other breeds? If they are working dogs, then they are probably kept in family or in breeding
stations, and thus they hardly have chance to uncotroledly breed with another dogs.
If they roam wildly somewhere in the wood, then they can hardly be used as working dogs, or
for any training. I think i am not getting this much.

Here, if there is a new breed created, it is kept in breeding stations under strict kontrols, it breeds
only with specifically choosed individuals and the breed is called breed after it has several breeding lines
and some standard and the animals have some type. I didn#t notice anything of this at the Lupo Italiano,
but it might be the language problem in this case.

Quote:
What i absolutely disagree, is that you say that:

And specifically: the hybrid Italian Wolf is the ONLY
animal in the world who collect armoniously the
quality of the dog and the wolf being at all effects a
domestic animal and a work dog.
Are you kidding? You can't mean this seriously, can you. Where are some results proving this?
Before this discussion started, i had no idea about some Lupo Italiano existing at all! I have never
heard about them, never notice they'd win any competition, never heard they'd be used at army,
police or worked anywhere else. The breed (if it can be called breed at all) is so young, that
the world itself has no idea about it to exist, and you tell me how special they are?

Please, do me a favour and see the site of http://www.wolfdog.org, and check how many wolfdogs there is
with working tests passed, from easy to hard ones. Including my own wolfdog. I think this prooves all.

Mirka
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Old 31-07-2002, 17:01   #15
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Ehi! I Know, my own wolfdog is in wolfdog.org too!!!

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...e=dog&wid=3773

Ooops, thanks Ezio for the photo!

If you absolutely disagree that you have to read by
your boyfriend this other I've just found in the
official site you mentioned:

http://www.lupoitaliano.it/pagine/ra...-stampa/8B.htm

I translate the first phrase: Already it had been
attempted, in Germany and Czechoslovakia, to create a
breed that had a substantial part of the genetic
characteristics of the wolf, but all the experiments
were failed because of they were escapes animals not
perfectly balances to and therefore not suitable to
the training. To us it has gone differently ...

How can I still take a walk in the Italian parks with
my Ronny without shame?
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Old 01-08-2002, 00:25   #16
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Hello,

I have been on this list for awhile, but have just watched. I do not have any CzW's nor do I know anyone who does, but I do own an 11 year old Dalmatian, and a one year old Bernese Mountain Dog/English Setter mix. You can see them here if you are interested... http://hometown.aol.com/DragonsCave14/index.html
I admire your breed very much for many reasons, but one thing that is different from these and other breeds are the owners dedication to them. You all seem to take the time to train and stimulate the dogs the way they need to. The dogs don't seem to be placed in the wrong hands, which creates a problem when a breed gets too popular.
I have noticed a problem with the name, which is obviously ridiculous, but I know how people can be. Sure people get the wrong impression when they hear "wolfdog". The difference between them and say the Irish Wolfhound is probably not only the slight difference in the name, but the fact that they don't resemble wolfs much at all. But I see that a "Wolfdog" is exactly what they are, and the name has no right to be changed! "Dachsund" means "Badger hound" but who is afraid of those? Dalmatians are from Dalmatia, Rottweilers from Rottwiel, and then breeds like the American Indian Dog which is obvious where it got its name from (and can sometimes be mistaken for a wolf cross). A name is supposed to reflect the breeds' history in some way or another, and thats just what your dogs do.
And then there names which don't even exist. The bans on "Pit Bulls" for example, there is no such breed, there are American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers. The common "pit bull" is just carless crossing of these two in creating a dog fit for fighting and not so much show quality. Then half of them end up in dog shelters, and the nice ones make it out! Then to go even further, somtimes labeling Dogo Argentinos as "Pit Bulls" also, looks can get a breed in trouble even when they have nothing in common.
I think it is just the fact that people see this as a "dangerous" breed, because of what it is. They see a golden retriever as loving because they have seen the good they have done, and the reputation they have. What they need is a little edjucation on the subject. A little positive information can make a difference. I don't know about where ou are, but in the US there are therapy dog tests, and then the dogs can visit hospitals, nursing homes, schools and that sort of thing. If this is an option, I would suggest getting active in that, and maybe go to these places and just teach about them. Your dogs are smart, and you can show the people how great they are, and tell them some of the problems you are having with the breed. If you inspire just a few people, could mean all the difference in the way this turns out. I am only 17, but I know well the problems of dogdom. I also know that MY generation can do alot if they were just taught, and that usually dosn't happen. I think if you just spread the word to the common folk about how great they really are, thats a good start. Because your dogs are just that, dogs. There should be no bans on them, being there has been no wrongdoing, just a truthful name. And truth is something most people fear.
I don't know what good my information will do, but it was worth a shot! I am sorry for the ridiculously long letter!

~Silver Dragon~
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Old 01-08-2002, 11:57   #17
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Default Wolfdogs and Lupo Italiano

Ezio,

i am sorry but i don't understand well your english. I will ask my bf to translate me the italian page from the link
you sent me, ok?
I am not getting, why you should go out with your Ronny and feel ashamed. Our dogs are how we educate and
train them. And it should be the owners attempt to make the dog in such shape, that he can always be proud of
it. And i can't see, why you should feel ashamed having the breed you bought. After all, it is what you wanted,
i guess?
I am proud of my wolfdog and whatever she does bad, it=B4s only my fault in training. And i will never be ashamed
for what breed she is!

Mirka
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Old 01-08-2002, 12:21   #18
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Silver Dragon,

thank you very much for your e-mail. I absolutely agree with you, and i am happy to hear what you said.
I agree, that the way to fix this problem is to teach people, what wolves and wolfdogs really are. Here in
Czech Republic, not every owner, but at least some i know, are trying to make propagation of the breed.

What i personally do, is that i take my wolfdog everywhere with me, and i am always having time to explain
anyone who asks, about the breed and how is life with it. I take my wolfdog with me to downtown, to different
public events, to the ponds, we were few times at some kindergarten or children=B4s day.
I must say that 80% of people (at least those who ask me or come in close contact with my wolfdog) have
positive reactions on Cira and sometimes they even start to consider buying a puppy of wolfdog.
My boyfriend already got used, that every time i go out with Cira to some place, where is more people, at least
two or three will stop me with questions about the dog. Twice already policemen were asking me about the
breed and it=A8s character.

We all CW owners in my town and it=B4s surroundings, are meeting very often, we all visit the same training place
and we join together different events to propagate the breed. I personally already wrote one article to national
newspapers about wolves, and it was printed out. I hope i helped a little bit to explain what wolf really is.

Mirka
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Old 01-08-2002, 12:41   #19
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Default Wolfdogs and Lupo Italiano

Mirka,
my name is not Ezio and about my feeling ashamed you
probably can't understand also ironical meaning of my
words ... the site you told that made you smile
doesn't have correlation with Ezio's worries.

Ehm, now I mean "ironical" not about the metal.

Ciao.

Stefano.
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Old 01-08-2002, 12:56   #20
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Default Wolfdogs and Lupo Italiano

Sorry Stefano for naming you Ezio.

What a luck you are not wolfdog, maybe you should change your name ..
I mean this "ironicaly" too, nothing about metal and nothing serious.

Mirka
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