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View Poll Results: Litters with unknow HD-results: should be removed?
Yes 20 54.05%
No 17 45.95%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 31-10-2008, 21:51   #41
Rona
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I propose further improvements :
Litters whose parents have fairly done bonitation should be indicated in light green, and those with "lifted" results - dark green
Litters bred by nice, friendly breeders should carry a pink ribbon, and those of unpleasant individuals - a black one.

Any more suggestions?

I just want to draw your attention to the fact that apart from "technical" info there are elements/ factors that do not fit into any system(s).

I saw unbonitated dogs, that were healthy and lovable. I saw small dogs whose pups grew up to 72 cm. And I also heard of a bonitated dog with P1 that only the owner dared to touch and always with a treat in his hand. (one may wonder how was the P1 obtained )

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.
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Old 31-10-2008, 22:51   #42
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Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.
Here the same .

I also think that it just should be possible for all breeders to advertise there litters, just because on this site you can find all info of the World of CSW.
And otherwise its got a little bit the taste of censor .

Groette Martine.
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Old 31-10-2008, 23:07   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I just want to draw your attention to the fact that apart from "technical" info there are elements/ factors that do not fit into any system(s).

I saw unbonitated dogs, that were healthy and lovable. I saw small dogs whose pups grew up to 72 cm. And I also heard of a bonitated dog with P1 that only the owner dared to touch and always with a treat in his hand. (one may wonder how was the P1 obtained )

I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.
Even if it is a A breeder do not mean that the HD and bonitation test is good,
or that the parents are frendley.

But you talk about that 1cm and the bad bonitation judges,
and that is a nother problem.

A system whit A, B and C will make it beter, not perfect.

Regards / Mikael
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Old 31-10-2008, 23:17   #44
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Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
A system whit A, B and C will make it beter, not perfect.

Regards / Mikael
Just wondering, for who makes this system it better ?????
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:25   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post
Just wondering, for who makes this system it better ?????
just wondering...what is your opinion? what suggestions do you have?

Please make suggestions and what YOU consider improvements, saying this or that is not good without giving any positive input doesn't help anybody.
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Old 01-11-2008, 05:32   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post
I don't know how others, but I'd definitely prefer to buy a pup of the unbonited or imperfect but friendly CSV parents of stable characters than of the beautiful P1 'green' aggressive superchampion.
I think AGAIN we are loosing the real spirit of what is being suggested.
There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.
I think this has been already explained in other posts but it seems not to be clear enough.

From my point of view I have written even too much so I will no longer write anything on this thread.
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Old 01-11-2008, 08:04   #47
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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
I think AGAIN we are loosing the real spirit of what is being suggested.
There is no JUDGEMENT on Studs, Bitches or Litter.
It is just MORE direct information to users of this site.
Nobody said that the "green" Group A litter is better than the "red" group C one... just that on the Group A you have more direct information than the group C.
I think this has been already explained in other posts but it seems not to be clear enough.
Massimo
1. First of all - I'm not a breeder, I don't intend to be. I didn't even vote on the poll since I have no opinion.
2. I do understand the proposed system.
3. I'm not against the system in principle, but I'm trying to anticipate the effects it'd bring - remember that intensions are one thing, and the results of its implementations - another. Lenin also meant well (not that I compare Massimo to Lenin )

The danger is, that however hard you'd try to convince potential owners that a 'yellow litter' is OK according to legal regulations in many countries that do not require bonitation (X-raying is another issue because it's available everywhere) most of them will try to purchase a pup from a "green" list. It may result in:
1. Much higher prices of "green" litters
2. More 'result lifting' at bonitations
3. Even more ill feelings among breeders (gossiping to downgrade the greenness of the litters)
4. disappointment of the buyers (I bought a pup from a green litter, paid a fortune for it and it has faults)

In fact introduction of the system would promote Czech national regulations concerning breeding. But why not base it on the Slovakian or German ones and additionally require "running exams" and ED results- and mark the dogs that have those?

You may try to explain again and again on WD or wherever what the colours mean and what the intentions were, but HOW the new owners will understand it - is a completley different matter.

I have no idea how to improve it and I don't propose anything, but I believe it's good to look at such a proposal from various sides before any final decisions are made.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:30   #48
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Originally Posted by massimo View Post
just wondering...what is your opinion? what suggestions do you have?

Please make suggestions and what YOU consider improvements, saying this or that is not good without giving any positive input doesn't help anybody.
massimo
I do not have suggestions and improvements for the litters list.
Just think the way it is it is perfect .

Let people think/judge for themself .

Groette Martine.
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:46   #49
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To Rona

I think the intensions are to make the CsV healty and more standard like.
And I think it will be more easy fore the buyers to buy the dog they wont.

And hopefully thanks to this system, there will only be A and B breeders in the future

But even if you buy from A and B it is not a 100% guarantee,
but the chance to get a healty pup is mush bigger.

This is not about the breeders or there gossip, or even money...
It is about the breed !!! and a way to provent unnecessary suffering fore the dogs !!!

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 01-11-2008, 10:51   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post
I do not have suggestions and improvements for the litters list.
Just think the way it is it is perfect .

Let people think/judge for themself .

Groette Martine.
And what about the puppys that are born whit HD !!!
when will they have the chance to choose ???

/ Mikael
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Old 01-11-2008, 11:07   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
And what about the puppys that are born whit HD !!!
when will they have the chance to choose ???

/ Mikael
No put them in red,orange and green on wolfdog, and then they have a chance to choose ??????????
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Old 01-11-2008, 11:21   #52
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Originally Posted by loco View Post
No put them in red,orange and green on wolfdog, and then they have a chance to choose ??????????
They have the right to Not be born by parents whit HD C/C x B/B !!!
And whit this system many of them will hopefully not be born from parents whit bad HD results.
But you think it is OK to not eaven do a X-ray, or am I wrong ???

/ Mikael
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Old 01-11-2008, 12:12   #53
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Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
They have the right to Not be born by parents whit HD C/C x B/B !!!
And whit this system many of them will hopefully not be born from parents whit bad HD results.
But you think it is OK to not eaven do a X-ray, or am I wrong ???
/ Mikael
I do not think it is good to breed with dogs without any x-rays never said I do .

But I think it is idealistic to think, when you do not allow those litters anymore or put them in the redzone on WD.
They now gone make x-rays and bonitate there dogs and maybe because of the badresult they do not breed anymore with there dogs.

And all of this because of a boxsystem on WD ?
Maybe in a idealworld.

There are breeders who do not use WD at all to advertise there pups, they do not have hd results and bonitationcode and dispite of that sell all of the pups .

Groette Martine.
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Old 01-11-2008, 13:29   #54
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You excuse me,probably I am badly me express.
The most correct thing is to make a bonitation, obviously.
I have made my example to underline how much they would want but today they have not succeeded unfortunately still in doing a correct bonitation.
And I want to repeat not for superficiality but for different problems,more kilometre's, job ,study etc...
Obviously before making to join my dogs, I have talked with different friends and breeders and I have been sorry a lot not to have been able to make the bonitation .
Certainly if I bring my dogs in the beach between peaople, children and other dogs of all the kinds without leash I have something of very indicative on their character, it doesn't have the objective characteristics of a bonitation it is true, but I have face too many wolf-dog's difficult in adoption for not trust that they are right for riproduction.
I know well that I am not Margo, Hanka, and not even Massimo, but I hope to be on the correct road .
Very probably next year we will make the bonitation and we will also end in the lists of the good ; ones but my thought go to how much they have very good dogs and they cannot make the bonitation, we should be our care to try to recover them for the race, also to the light of the poor genetic variability.
Your idea is sensible and going to in the sense to give an important contribution to the breeding, but we should also invent us a system to involve those isolated people that have very interesting dogs and whose blood should be brought around for the europa, so we risks to close even more us on if same.
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Old 01-11-2008, 14:10   #55
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Originally Posted by loco View Post
I do not think it is good to breed with dogs without any x-rays never said I do .

But I think it is idealistic to think, when you do not allow those litters anymore or put them in the redzone on WD.
They now gone make x-rays and bonitate there dogs and maybe because of the badresult they do not breed anymore with there dogs.

And all of this because of a boxsystem on WD ?
Maybe in a idealworld.

There are breeders who do not use WD at all to advertise there pups, they do not have hd results and bonitationcode and dispite of that sell all of the pups .

Groette Martine.
I do not se the big problem here...

All they have to do is X-ray there dogs before they breed !!!
It is easy to do in all country´s, and it is not to expensive neather.

And fore the breeders that do not use WD.org today, we can do nothing.
If there dream is to breed whitout HD tests it is a pity, but nothing we can do anything about.

/ Mikael
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Old 01-11-2008, 17:37   #56
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I do not se the big problem here...

All they have to do is X-ray there dogs before they breed !!!
It is easy to do in all country´s, and it is not to expensive neather.

/ Mikael
I also do not see it as a problem .
But if you see the litterlist, there are enough people for who it is a huge problem to make a X-ray .
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Old 01-11-2008, 19:00   #57
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I think the idea is pretty good, I understand it perfectly, but people are forgething some important little things

First of all, lets see one reallity wich was completly forgothen here, bonitation isn't acessible for everyone, we have already 2 registered breeders in americas, me and Wildenmorgen, do you really think is that easy take a plane, make all documents for the dogs and travel to europe for make a bonitation? People, if I travel with my dogs more than 1 time per 2 years I will pay'd taxes for my OWN dogs back to MY country as if I had buy then outsite, I will need minimally 6 months of exams in the dogs for they get the CZI for MAYBE enter in europe, they will need travel almost one full day or more without water or food, lonely in cages as baggage!
I can travel only 1 time per 2 years, so, I will fell really stupid if I lost this only opportunity to bring new bloodlined dogs easy to my country for do a bonitation!
I don't want blame bonitation here, but we all know that this isn't so rellyable at point of we do all this way only for make bonitations.
For we bring bonitations we will need bring the judges all this way, I saw how was difficult for Belgiun club make the bonitation, I cannot imagine how will be for the judges comes here, and this is the only one of the high amount of problems we normally have for make important events specific for a breed because the size of the country.. maybe the guys wich have a CzW in French Guiana will drive by car more than 10.000 km for go to an bonitation in Brasil, if theyr cars support the roads prototypes we have in north.
But this is our own problems, you're all have nothing to do with this, futurelly I hope we will soon have more breeders here and they automatically will fall in B class independant how good and criterious is theyr selection, and , as Rona remeber perfectly, we will understand the only few differences wich exists between the two groups, but other people not, we will be ever like a "second class" independand of wich we do... togheter with some breeders in europe that live close to orign country and dont dare to go and bonitate their dogs or by fear of receive a P14 or for lack of time, or maybe by lazyness and careless.
people isn't able to differ good and bad breeders, will never understand this little difference in B group.

But now think in the breed, more important than Bonitation surelly is the ED results, I know we have few dogs with this problem but we still have, ED results are acessible for every country do and is really important, some dogs in this list have this problem and only who saw their in reallity will have a little notion that , maybe, the dog wich moves strange on dogshows have probems in elbows, and here, we're talking about a illness worst to control than HD because it's genetic.
In same way we can think about working exams, exams are the way to proof your dog can work, we know of course some cases of dogs wich pass because the test was done in it's own garden or because the helpler was the owner or someone the dog was already accostumate to attack, but it's better than nothing, important is let the breed continues to be a working dog like it was created, in countries like France that protection cannot be made, it's possible to make track tests, obedience and so on. CzW must show itself more as working dog than it's now, I believe more in dogs wich have BH and others tests than one Of in bonitation, and, well, working exams have in all countries too, being acessible for everyone without difficulty.

I think Bonitation surelly is important, but until now it isn't acessible for everyone for be such crucial in a global list.
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Old 01-11-2008, 20:29   #58
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To Nebulosa

I think people will understand that the breeders in America are not abel to bonitate

I also think that a dog from a B-breeder whit good working results are beter than a dog from a A-breeder whit only a bonitation as working (title)

But I do not think we can do the system after you, or other breeders in America
or breeders far away like Finland, Sweden, Israel etc...

I might find my self on the B list one day, and I do not se this as a big problem at all...

It is what is best fore the breed that is important here, nothing else

Regards / Mikael
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Old 01-11-2008, 20:40   #59
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Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
To Rona

I think the intensions are to make the CsV healty and more standard like.
And I think it will be more easy fore the buyers to buy the dog they wont.

And hopefully thanks to this system, there will only be A and B breeders in the future

But even if you buy from A and B it is not a 100% guarantee,
but the chance to get a healty pup is mush bigger.

This is not about the breeders or there gossip, or even money...
It is about the breed !!! and a way to provent unnecessary suffering fore the dogs !!!

Best regards / Mikael
To Mikael,
I'm afraid you didn't read my post carefully
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Old 01-11-2008, 21:02   #60
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To Mikael,
I'm afraid you didn't read my post carefully
OK, Sorry I will try to read and understand better in the future

Regards / Mikael
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