Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct?
Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

If it is reported to the Swedish kennel club, they will probably lose there pedigree.
( if there is any proof )

If there is no proof maybe they just ban every CsW and Saarloos in Sweden from breeding whit pure Pedigree’s as they did between 1997-2008 ! Even if Swedish government did say CsW and Saarloos was OK 1997 the Swedish Kennel Club refused to let any wolfdog on any show or let them breed whit pedigree, until 2008.

If they are F1-F4 the dog will probably bee put to sleep to

Therefor please do not import a dog of the "Mutara" lines to Sweden !!!
As it might get the breed banned And the dog killed !!!

In Sweden we do not have any room for any error, one bad thing and we might be banned.

Best regards / Mikael

[AMERICANI]

..........

[Hanka]

Christian, you wrote "people around Mutaras was open".
No, they was not open. Everything was "top secret" and common members of club knew NOTHING. Only a few people (5?) did it.....

[valentina]

I'm agree with sciamalaia

how many dogs (that the owner write here in wolfdog from many countries) are certainly mutara? how we can to have a confirmation?

what we can to do (really) for the preservation of the breed?

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by valentina

I'm agree with sciamalaia

how many dogs (that the owner write here in wolfdog from many countries) are certainly mutara? how we can to have a confirmation?

what we can to do (really) for the preservation of the breed?

Original Mutaras :
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5571
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5535
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/5570

And all their offsprings.

The blood od Mutaras is today just in dogs from kennels :
Mutara
Passo del Lupo
Foresta Incantata

[elf]

If it really become one day a big deal (what I doubt), you can likely have DNA test.
mtDNA are inherited from mother, so checking this against SNP or microsatellite specific to arctic wolf would I guess do the trick.

[sciamalaia]

If it really become one day a big deal (what I doubt)

Maybe it is not so clear how the situation is in Italy... Everyone can breed, everyone who has a female, with or without HD and the most common health test, can do a litter, every male can be used. At the end of the game every litter can have valid pedigree. Now we have: Audrey, Fenrir, Ozzy, Ave, Sakim, Sangria, Sanka the Q litter of 9 puppies (now 17 months old). So, just in Italy we have 16 mutaras.. They all can be Stud and Bitch. And all the litter from Ozzy and Q-PdL will have a valid Csw pedigree. Do you agree with me that it is better to follow their offsprings and don't lose them in the sea of Italian Csw?

you can likely have DNA test

That is not exact, in Italy the DNA of a dog is property of the owner, you can not use it without the permission of the owner.. So a "dishonest" breeder will never give the permission..

Also, two of the three kennels quoted by Pavel are part of the Italian Csw Club, one of them is the bigger kennel in Italy, so our Club and ENCI will never go against it. They will never allow a DNA test to find the Hybrid.

My point is that the only weapon you have to avoid them is to know them.. and WD is the best tool you can use. If you mark them with a warning you will lose them, they will be too much to follow without a database. Instead of that warning, if you write something like: they have a canadian wolf in their pedigree in the X generation, I think it will be different.

By the way, Lunas Mom, in Italy there are a lot of breeders that have nothing to do with mutaras.. if in the future you will have an Italian pup you can ask them. And of course you can ask also Foresta Incantata and Passo del Lupo, nobody wants to sell you a mutara if you don't ask for it..

[AMERICANI]

Perhaps I misread a post... Please help me with this one. Was it being said that all Passo Del Lupo have Mutara blood or just some? I read earlier in another thread about Passo Del Lupo introducing another wolf into the breed.. Is this the same issue we are discussing or has it happened more than once? My questions (as I have reread them to myself) seem odd and a little stupid, but I want the most precise information possible and sometimes language barriers become a challenging burden. Thanks, Jason Young

[Gypsy Wolf]

How about we ask the FCI, ENCI, etc. to put a special letter into the registration numbers of all the mutaras and their offspring? That way they can do their thing, still be CsVs, but breeders will know their heritage so that they can make an informed decision on using them and buyers will also know what they are getting?
I know here in the U.S., there was an outcry from the Dobermann club about registering "white" (Albino) Dobermanns, they were concerned about the genes being mixed into the general population, so they designated all of the "white" Dobermanns and their offspring that carry the gene with a "Z" in their registration number. That way those who wanted a white Dobe in their breeding program or as a pet could find what they wanted but the Dobermann people who wanted to prevent it from getting into their breeding program could make sure they did.
No fighting, no competition, no arguments. Just the ability to know what your pedigree has in it...

[sciamalaia]

Perhaps I misread a post... Please help me with this one. Was it being said that all Passo Del Lupo have Mutara blood or just some? I read earlier in another thread about Passo Del Lupo introducing another wolf into the breed.. Is this the same issue we are discussing or has it happened more than once? My questions (as I have reread them to myself) seem odd and a little stupid, but I want the most precise information possible and sometimes language barriers become a challenging burden. Thanks, Jason Young

I did NOT say that all PdL have Mutara blood! I did say that if you want an Italian pup you can ask them (if you like! This is not propaganda for PdL), nobody wants to sell a mutara to someone who doesn't look for a mutara! I hope it is more understandable.. My english is not my italian but I thought it was clear too... If you have any other doubt please ask...

[hanninadina]

Lunas Mom, as Sciamalaia wrote, they do not sell Mutara pups to everyone. The buyers are chosen people! So your concerns are not necessary. There are enough people who have wolfdogs. And there are enough people who want a F 3 wolfdog as well, no matter, if pure csw or not. If you see discussion in german forum - here it did not start really -, the health problems with dm and zw are much more important. And what Nanouk wrote to this is completely right. Health is more important than blood lines, this is my point of view.

Christian

[AMERICANI]

Grazie! Io non stato cento percento seguro.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I do agree health is paramount, however, I also feel strongly about breed purity. Otherwise it's nothing more than a mutt.

[elf]

Maybe it is not so clear how the situation is in Italy... Everyone can breed, everyone who has a female, with or without HD and the most common health test, can do a litter, every male can be used. At the end of the game every litter can have valid pedigree.

It's the same in many other countries, and especially in courtries where stud book is open. Mutaras is only the visible part of the iceberg (and what about Dark's offsprings, and so on...), and they're well tracked compare to other mutts, which BTW many looks closer to pure breed than mutaras, I saw amazing CSV x US wolfdog cross, one cannot see differences between pure breed.

[hanninadina]

Where did you see the amazing mix csw x us wolfdog, in France?

[Gypsy Wolf]

What is the reference to "Dark's offspring"??

[hanninadina]

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1534

If you scroll down, you see the offspring. And if you go on every dog and scroll down, you see if they do have offspring as well - if the owner told to wolfdog database.

Christian

[massimo]

nobody wants to sell a mutara to someone who doesn't look for a mutara!

as Sciamalaia wrote, they do not sell Mutara pups to everyone. The buyers are chosen people! So your concerns are not necessary.

Guys, I know you do it for goodwill but I suggest you NOT to be spokesmen of Passo Del Lupo kennel unless directly appointed by them.
If PDL kennel doesn't participate to this forum there must be a reason I believe, so it makes no sense to speak on their behalf.

Was it being said that all Passo Del Lupo have Mutara blood or just some? I read earlier in another thread about Passo Del Lupo introducing another wolf into the breed..

If you read the BILLIONS of threads opened on the MUTARA argument you will find a lot of info. Search for keyword MUTARA, take A LOT of time and have fun!

Recap would be (please experts correct me where I'm wrong): in CZECH (not in Italy!!) a German Shepherd looking dog Armin (no sure pedigree) was mated with a Canadian wolf Lupina.
3 F1 mix were born.Ave, Audrey, Ares.
Officially, only Audrey has mated and given birth to an F2, and this has been done by Foresta Incantata Kennel.
All official with documents at hand with names written.
Passo del Lupo made a litter S- PDL, with a dog without pedigree, Alaska.
On this forum you will find Alaska is Ave Lupo, but this does not correspond to official documents and I doubt it will ever be proven.
One S-PDL dog has given birth to a litter too, Q-Pdl. If a Q-Pdl gives birth to a litter, it will be third generation and have official papers in Italy.
We know the actions taken by Slovak and Czech club recently to "avoid" having dogs without recent pedigree in their countries.
This is a Clash between Kennel clubs clearly, Italian FCI gives pedigree and Czech and Slovak don't, but I suppose either couldn't care less of each other.

I am just curious to know, from Czechs or Slovaks, can a dog with "missing parts" on foreign pedigree who therefore cannot give it's puppies a CZ or SK pedigree because of this, participate to a Show or Club show...and maybe even win?

I would like to add just one thing: I understand all the actions taken against the "mutara" issue but.... a careful and clever eye can SEE easily that wolves have been used in other occasions too...their offspring being used and VERY wolfish dogs being bred but... because "normal CSW" dogs have been declared...these dogs can enter our gene-pool without any problems or actions...only those who "know" or "have heard of" can avoid them.

[Pavel]

Only one small notice :

Originally Posted by massimo

I am just curious to know, from Czechs or Slovaks, can a dog with "missing parts" on foreign pedigree who therefore cannot give it's puppies a CZ or SK pedigree because of this, participate to a Show or Club show...and maybe even win?

Massimo, you know same like we all, that dog shows are generally just long time comedy only. Shows results dont says anything about dog quality. The biggest example was my Hoky z Molu Es. In CZ P14 on bonitation, but lot of shows titles incl. Polish champion and many times excelent in shows in CZ - see http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...ccesses&id=533.

[massimo]

Pavel...there are shows...and SHOWS.
For me dog show depends a lot on JUDGE.
And it seems you are not replying...can these dogs participate and win dogshows in CZ or SK....maybe even Club shows?