"Suspicious" dogs list

elf · 27-10-2008, 10:23

Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted.
An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

Mikael · 27-10-2008, 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted.
An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

Yes I think it would be good to know this info too,
but only if it is based on 100% proof not suspicions...

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us

Best regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 27-10-2008, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

A DNA database for hereditary diseases and a worning list of inbreeding diseases, is not bad ideas, but it seams like it is only you and me Elf that are interested in this.

Hopefully in the future more breeders and oners will join us

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

elf · 27-10-2008, 21:28

Ina, that's why I wrote documented.
About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)".
The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

Mikael · 27-10-2008, 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Did it ever occur to you that more experienced breeders/owners realize what you are asking for?
A DNA database has to be international and can´t be build up till tomorrow and I would surely not write any suspicions about any dogs into an open forum without any proof.
There have been a lot of suspicions and rumors in the past, most of them were wrong. Who has eyes to see and spends time to travel don´t need lists of suspicions.

Regards Ina

No I do not se way it has to be international, if a breeder takes DNA tests on heas dogs, he can put the results in this database together whit the HD, ED and PRA. but I agree it would be good if a CsV club was responsible fore this database.

This way it would be easier to choose an appropriate mating partner and fore the buyers to choose a healty puppy.

In the begining it will be very few dogs in this database, but whit time I think buyers will request DNA results.
And I think in the future all breeders will have to privide this data.

Yes it will take years to build up this database, but way not start now ???

Best regards / Mikael

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 01:23

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

michaelundinaeichhorn · 28-10-2008, 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ?

How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ?
To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ?
And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ?
Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know).

As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think

Rolf

Exactly. And to create DNA-Tests for hereditary diseases you need DNA from as much dogs, ill ones and healthy ones, as possible. At the moment there is no DNA-test for any disease in CSW. It is not even 100% sure that the dwarf test will show the same genes as in SWH and GSH.
We till now bred with Slowakian studs, Italien studs, Hungarian studs, Czech studs and German studs. That is the reason why we need an international comparable test. And what would you like to show here on wolfdog.org? The lab registration number of the test? What sense does it make if everybody makes it´s own, not comparable test? There has to be rules how to take the blood samples, which laboratories will take it, who will store and analyse the results and so on. Otherwise the people that cheated before will cheat with the DNA as well.
DNA-tests surely will come and there will be an international agreement about ist one day, but not tomorrow.

Coming back to the suspicions. Do you really think that Margo (sorry Margo, I just take you for an example

) said this and there is a rumor is a proof? Imagine someone ill minded would say your dog has some heriditary problems and others follow him and your dog comes on this privately kept list. This has been done before many times. There will be no help from DNA test for open hair.

Ina

Rona · 28-10-2008, 09:05

Ina, I agree with you 100%.

If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest.

Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it.

However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money.

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

elf · 28-10-2008, 09:24

You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money.

A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did.

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way.

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.

Rona · 28-10-2008, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect?

I meant elf, of course, not Rolf

Quote:

The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs...

Exactly!! Naturally, not all people, but definitely too many.

It's sometimes seems to me that more people are "unhealthily" proud of their dogs than of their spouses, kids or professional achievements

michaelundinaeichhorn · 28-10-2008, 12:44

I think all informations needed for this litter is already available here on the database for breeders. And no, I don´t think the list would have changed anything.

Ina

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 13:20

I see more problems than solutions with this list !
How to be 100%(not 99%) sure that some dog is the reason for some defect ? How can you exclude the ancestors of this dog if they are already death and have no DNA-sample ?

When to dogs makes puppies, not all puppies get same genes from the parrents(or grand parrents) and some dogs who have defects don`t pass on the defects to puppies, so I don`t understand the reason for this list ?

But maybe it is just me who is stupid

Knowing the dog(puppies from this dog, parrents, grand parrents and siblings) you want to use for breeding, will always be the best solution.
When all comes to all, you can NEVER be sure of how puppies will turn out to be, dosent matter pedigree, bonitation or DNA ?

Another question : when will a defect be big/bad enough for a dog to be addet to this list ? who will be judge for this defects(everybody know that two judges can judge different) ?
....So back to the main question : How to 100% sure that some defects come from the dog in question ? ...this list will always be subjective from judge to judge and therefor the list is useless ...in my opinion !

Rolf

elf · 28-10-2008, 14:11

Remove the words "list" and "suspicious", I know writing it they were not well chosen, replace them by "breeding experiences shared knowledges".

Breeder X noticed that when crossing dog A with dog B, but also when crossing dog A with dog C, D or E, it gives always the particularity Y etc... so on for relatives... I guess there are a lot to share and it's would be easier access, so more used, if documented somewhere.

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Remove the words "list" and "suspicious", I know writing it they were not well chosen, replace them by "breeding experiences shared knowledges".

Breeder X noticed that when crossing dog A with dog B, but also when crossing dog A with dog C, D or E, it gives always the particularity Y etc... so on for relatives... I guess there are a lot to share and it's would be easier access, so more used, if documented somewhere.

So if I get this right, this "breeding experiences shared knowledges database" will only be for dogs who have made "x" numbers of litters ? how many litters should that be to be sure that two or three choices of mate, was not just bad choices maked by the breeder(not all breeders have big experience) ? or in other words, how to be sure that the bitch(or stud dog) is due to the particular defect "Y" ? If only one litter is made, then who is to blame for defect ? and dosent matter who is to blame, what can you use it for(serious breeders want to see future mates with their own eyes, before choosing) ? I think to make such a database you must be 100% sure, so who will have authority to add info in this database, the breeders them selves or some judge ? I think non can be objective enough to make such a database ! I think this will just open for more accusations(true and false) on various breeders, but will not give 100% true datas on the breed !
I am sorry but I can not see/understand how to make such a database all facts/true 100% sure.... and if it is not 100% facts/true, what is the use for this ?

Rolf

elf · 28-10-2008, 16:10

Conditions of applications are to define, nothing is for nothing, there is work to do for everybody. Even if all would be not 100% accurate, how can one say yet that the overall benefit would be not positive at the end ?

Juniorwolf · 28-10-2008, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

Conditions of applications are to define, nothing is for nothing, there is work to do for everybody. Even if all would be not 100% accurate, how can one say yet that the overall benefit would be not positive at the end ?

sorry but I just don`t see what benefits there will be from such a database(compared to this one), if you are not afraid to call and visit breeders of interest for breeding, I think you can find all you will need here on this site ....even not all is fact/true

Sorry I just don`t see the purpose ? ...I will NEVER trust some database more than my own eyes and experiences anyway

Rolf

elf · 28-10-2008, 17:05

It would be the perfect world if all breeders would do like that, but reality is reality, and worth giving some info than nothing no ?
What about seeing not only the male or female, but also grand-parents, and more far away, relatives ? What about dead dogs we still need to have some info on what they trace etc...

Nebulosa · 28-10-2008, 17:29

Please furyos behave yourself, nobody touch in your name's here and everyone is arguing well and in peace at moment, don't try change it.

Margo · 28-10-2008, 18:02

You started very interesting topic - "black list of dog with problems"....

Such list you mentioned exist but it will be never published... There is no way to do it...

But it is good to talk about such cases because things which are spoken behind the back make in many cases more problems and sometimes they can be really bad. It is really better to talk about it openly EVEN if someone can feel attacked...

There is always a problem with the rumours which are told by the breeders. You have to be REALLY very careful with it because there is a lot false information spread through internet to make some dogs and breeders worsers than they really are...

One case: there was a nice dog. Two breeders covered their females with him but the females stayed empty. The breeders stared to talk "the stud dog is responsible for it - he can not have puppies". For some years other breeders avoid covering with this male - nobody was prepare to risk. When the stud dog owner discovered it he made the test by the male. The male was... 100% OK. Short time later first litters of this dog were born.
So the false opinion spread by some breeders which were not able to plan the mating right and probably visited the male too early (or too late) cause almost that an interesing dog was not used by other breeders.

Another case: there is a very nice dog with good HD-results (both his parents are HD-A) giving HORRIBLE Hd-results by the puppies. The problem is in the database you can only see good results of his offsprings - other are hidden, some not published (for example dog which penn hips are operated before they were old enough to make official HD-results). So officialy it is good dog with normal results by his offsprings but "implicated" breeders know not to use him. Other breeders do and they are suprised by the horrible HD-results not only by the puppies but also by puppies of this puppies... Because OFFICIALY everything seems to be OK with this dog... And nobody will blame this dog OFFICIALY and put him of the "black list" because there are no OFFICIAL proofs...
Expecially when it comes to the heath some breeders will make everything to hide the facts. Some years ago we had huge fight between the breeders and the owner - the dog become problems to walk in young age already so it had to be operated because of a very strong HD. Later the owners asked us to put "HD-E (unofficial)" as result in the database even in the results was not HD-E but much worser. After it the breeders attacked the owner will all possible methods and asked to remove the results because "Yes, the dog has dysplasia. Yes, it is so strong that the dog can not walk BUT it can not be written into the database because there is no proof which degree it OFFICIALY" was...
In the fact the breeder was right and in the database you can only find offical results but it also means: you can not find there REALLY hard cases where the dogs were put down opr operated because of strong HD. Such serious cases are "hidden" for 'usual' breeders....

As you can see in both cases there were no prooves but people were talking behind the back of the owners - that the first dog can not have puppies and the second gives dysplasia. Only if you talk about it you can give people the chance to be cleared of the charges (first case) and in second case to warn them from making mistakes... But you can not make OFFICIAL list basing on this. So the only solution for the breeders is to be as good informed as they can...

BUT now back to Orlik... It was exactly the case of the rumours which breeders were spreading some information around and nobody was checking it... But it was not about Orlik but about Omar z Krotkovského dvora. In Czech Republic I heard many times "Slovakian wolfdogs have problems with curly hair because of Omar". The same I heard in Slovakia - that this dog is responsible for the hair problems. But for me it was very suspicious because there was a kennels where you hade some curly coated puppies in every litter. With ONE exception - it was the litter where the father was ... Omar. This litter was "curly coat free"...

So we collected all the cases of curly coared dogs (not only the cases discovered during the bonitation but also many example which we collected from the breeders). We put it into the database and the computer found out that it was not Omar - the common ancestor was Orlik...

Should we put him on the black list? I don't think so... Why? Because all dogs have advantages and faults...

In the Orlik case - when it comes to the hair you must pay attention and not to make strong inbreeds because the possibility that the puppies will have also curly hair is much higher than by other matings. The same is also with using dogs which are strong inbreeds on Orlik - when you mate female (which has low inbreed coefficient) with male which is "high inbreed on Orlik" you will also have huge possibility many curly coated puppies will be born because they will get more from the father than from the mother.
So the question is why people use offsprings of Orlik? Answer is clear - hair is not everything. Curly hair "typ Orlik" has better quality than by many other lines (there are many CzW which have wrong soft hair - but nobody cares for it and nobody check this problem). Many dogs from this line give great rich coat (but not mix it with long as by some longaired dogs).
I also had no problems to use for my females dogs which have Orlik (3,4 generation) because all the males were known for giving puppies with very stable character and very good penn hip results. All of them were typical dogs with normal hair. So the advantages were bigger than the "risk" and the puppies heritated exactly what I expected.
But 'no' - I personally would not make stronger inbreed on Orlik because in the most cases I saw it finished with the hair by the puppies far from being "typical" CzW coat.

Orlik is only one of the examples - there are many dogs with Orlik in ther pedigree. And it is really nothing wrong - it not make the worser than other dogs - in some cases they can be even better: I personally would take a very nice typical dog with good character and good hips and Orlink in the pedigree than a dog without Orlik but looking untypical, doggish and with agressive character. Because the point of breeding and making the progress base on taking the best and discarding the bad things... If you will be able to discard the curly hair by Orlik you will get nice dogs, with nice character and in the most cases good hips. The breeders must only pay attention while making the inbreeds because of the PROBABILITY. In some cases you can see that because some breeders have no idea about the RISK they make strong inbreeds on Orlik and their puppies are more and more curly coated - they make selection... but the selection goes in the direction "curly coated Wolfdogs"... thay make exactly the wrong "genes" stronger instead of trying to breed them out.

From the genetic point it is also problematic because most cases must be examined basing on the genetics of OUR breed. Already in the theory it is not so easy to follow because curly hair is incompletely dominant. Additionaly you have different degrees of curly hairs - sometimes it is only some curly hair on the back or/and rump. Sometimes you have curly hairs on the whole body (the dogs look like sheeps).

Curly hair is not the only "hair problem":
- the curly hairs are not only "typical" for Orlik and Slovakian dogs because you have the same problem (one line) in Czech Republic - the same problems but these dogs have nothing to do with Orlik so it must come from other ancestors.
- we have dogs with too short hair (there are already whole lines of dogs with untypical too short hair but they are never listed because the judges never know if they see a dog with untypical too short coat or the dogs are shedding)
- we have longhaired dogs - they appear mostly in Italy but the problem comes from the German Shepherd Dogs - so it can appear by other lines too but the italian breeder make selection on such coat and the problem appears by him much more frequenty. Such hair is also very problematic for working breed (problems with overheating)
- there are dogs with soft coat - it is also problematic because such hair looks normal but are not weather resist as the typical CzW hair (for example ddogs with soft coat ry much longer than typical dogs). Also here nobody follow and fight with these faults...

We have really a lot to do and a lot to select...

Anyway we have much bigger problems - sure we have to pay attention for everything also the hair (because they are pretty common last time) but we have much more serious problems:
- open lips - we have already whole lines where NOT EVEN ONE dog has typical dry lips. Open lips and too heavy doggish heads are by some lines not "exceptions" but real INVASION

- heavy heads - we have some lines which are already so far away from being wolfish that when you will change the colour of the dogs from wolfish grey to brown you will get TYPICAL ... German Shepherd Dogs...
- with heavy heads come also wrinkles - there are more and more dogs which look like shar peis - have so many wrinkles on their heads... It makes the heads to look untypical and the number of such dogs is rising
- heavy dogs - the tendency to breed as big dog as possible caused that there are more and more CzW which are so badly build (heavy and limphatic) that the dogs have even problems to pass the 20 km exams...
- character - everybody criticise shy dogs. Sure they can not be called typical CzW. But there are more and more dogs which are too calm - lazy, lymphatic CzW which do not want to move, which is not active is also NO typical CzW. In the whole history I do not know even one dog which get "Oj"-character code ( flegmatic, calm temperament) but I know already some new dogs which really deserve such description... It is sad to see that Anatolian and Caucasian Shepherd of you friends are much more actiuve than some CzWs I know...

And for sure we can find more....

But still I can say that problems with the exterier are not so problematic as the problems with the health... If the dog has curly coat it can live happy for years. But when you have dog which is not able to move at the age of 8 monts...it is the end...
And it is much more problematic to follow because many breeders and owners hide health problems...

I will not say coat is no important but it is nothing compared to the bigger and bigger amount of CzW with ED problems. Why? Nobody cares for ED so the breeders breed with CzW even if it is proven that the dogs have elbow dysplasia....

....BUT....

We will never be able to prepare any black list. We can notice the problems, collect the information, store HD, ED, PRA results but all we will have are just pure suspicion and cases which we can proove with smaller or bigger probability.
Yes, we do it - we collect the results, store the rumours and goosips. But we make it the same way other breeders do. Maybe in the future we will have some good results and we can find out some problematic "lines" or "dogs" but now... we can only discuss it unofficialy here on forum...

On the other hand I'm for such disscusion even if for some people it will look like muckraking.I was really amused when I heard some goosips but last time I'm really shocked about the amount of false informaton spread by jealous breeders about other dogs and other breeders.
If you heard some rumours and accusations spread behind the back of others - just write it here... We can always check it in public - what we know and what we have - basing on the facts and not on the "top secret fairy tales" which are so popular last time...

It will be really great when even one dog or one breeder can be cleared from the accusations....

Margo · 28-10-2008, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf

This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless.

You right - in the most cases such "private" list are much worser that the official disscusions (or even gentle "fights"). It is always s better to have the chance to disscus something in public because you can not argue with the gossips spread behind your back.

On the other hand I understand the breeders. If you are honest you loose...

Look some topics below...

I really had no problems to publish that one of dogs from my kennel is only 64 cm... The result? Because of being fair and honest I had to read pompous words written by some breedders "the dog is for nothing". Words written by breeders which have dogs with not only one fault but many serious; which have no one but more too small dogs, breed with them but they hide the reality by not making the bonitations (or writting in the bonitation code bigger size than the dogs really are) and not showing the dogs in public places where someone can see them...

The same is with HD-results. In Czech Republic the club choosed the good way and publish all HD-results. They are fair and hide nothing. But what is the result - in some cases the Czech breeders are worser evaluated than some breeders from other countries which send only good HD-result and spread the information "my puppies are much better than the Czech because in CZ some have HD and all my dogs are only HD-A or HD-B"...
I guarantee you than many puppy buyers will choose let say French kennel with 50 dogs bred where you have only 5 dogs with HD-results all of them HD-A (and maybe 10 other dogs which were tested but the results are hidden because the dogs were HD-C, HD-D and HD-E) and not the Czech kennel where the breeder has 20 puppies - 15 tested with HD-A and HD-B and let's say 3 dogs HD-C. Because in the first case they will see only HD-A results, and by the Czech kennel they will see HD-A, HD-B and HD-C...

Hiding results really works and it is also the reason why so many breeders do not want to publish all information...

So we can make some "statistics" only when all clubs will work together - we can make statistisc of HD but ONLY when we will get all official HD-results... We can not base on the sincerity of the breeders...

Sad but true...

27-10-2008, 10:23	#1
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	"Suspicious" dogs list Sorry for the word suspicous, that's why I quoted. An example, it's said in a previous message that "Orlik z Rosíkova" is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems in CzW. These kind of information is important to avoid linebreeding or strong linebreeding in "suspicious" dogs, what would it take to have a kind of list got from breeders experiences ? Mouth to ear talk is good but at some point it's not bad to have something documented that could be useful for next breeders generation.

28-10-2008, 09:05	#8
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	Ina, I agree with you 100%. If somebody notices some imperfection or fault in his dog and wants to share/warn/inform breeders about it - it's fine. This would be fair and very honest. Still, the breeder may see the fault, but have no idea which ancestor is responsible for it. However, to make an official database responsibly, the information should be complete or almost complete, which of course is impossible. Remember that people own/breed dogs for many reasons. Some love the breed and truly care for its developlemnt, but there are also individuals whose dogs are expected to make up for their owners' frustrations or lack or successes, not to mention those who breed merely for money. Rolf, would you really expect the latter two groups to honestly admit that their dogs are imperfect? __________________

28-10-2008, 17:29	#18
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Please furyos behave yourself, nobody touch in your name's here and everyone is arguing well and in peace at moment, don't try change it. __________________

28-10-2008, 18:02	#19
Margo Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Późna Posts: 1,281	You started very interesting topic - "black list of dog with problems".... Such list you mentioned exist but it will be never published... There is no way to do it... But it is good to talk about such cases because things which are spoken behind the back make in many cases more problems and sometimes they can be really bad. It is really better to talk about it openly EVEN if someone can feel attacked... There is always a problem with the rumours which are told by the breeders. You have to be REALLY very careful with it because there is a lot false information spread through internet to make some dogs and breeders worsers than they really are... One case: there was a nice dog. Two breeders covered their females with him but the females stayed empty. The breeders stared to talk "the stud dog is responsible for it - he can not have puppies". For some years other breeders avoid covering with this male - nobody was prepare to risk. When the stud dog owner discovered it he made the test by the male. The male was... 100% OK. Short time later first litters of this dog were born. So the false opinion spread by some breeders which were not able to plan the mating right and probably visited the male too early (or too late) cause almost that an interesing dog was not used by other breeders. Another case: there is a very nice dog with good HD-results (both his parents are HD-A) giving HORRIBLE Hd-results by the puppies. The problem is in the database you can only see good results of his offsprings - other are hidden, some not published (for example dog which penn hips are operated before they were old enough to make official HD-results). So officialy it is good dog with normal results by his offsprings but "implicated" breeders know not to use him. Other breeders do and they are suprised by the horrible HD-results not only by the puppies but also by puppies of this puppies... Because OFFICIALY everything seems to be OK with this dog... And nobody will blame this dog OFFICIALY and put him of the "black list" because there are no OFFICIAL proofs... Expecially when it comes to the heath some breeders will make everything to hide the facts. Some years ago we had huge fight between the breeders and the owner - the dog become problems to walk in young age already so it had to be operated because of a very strong HD. Later the owners asked us to put "HD-E (unofficial)" as result in the database even in the results was not HD-E but much worser. After it the breeders attacked the owner will all possible methods and asked to remove the results because "Yes, the dog has dysplasia. Yes, it is so strong that the dog can not walk BUT it can not be written into the database because there is no proof which degree it OFFICIALY" was... In the fact the breeder was right and in the database you can only find offical results but it also means: you can not find there REALLY hard cases where the dogs were put down opr operated because of strong HD. Such serious cases are "hidden" for 'usual' breeders.... As you can see in both cases there were no prooves but people were talking behind the back of the owners - that the first dog can not have puppies and the second gives dysplasia. Only if you talk about it you can give people the chance to be cleared of the charges (first case) and in second case to warn them from making mistakes... But you can not make OFFICIAL list basing on this. So the only solution for the breeders is to be as good informed as they can... BUT now back to Orlik... It was exactly the case of the rumours which breeders were spreading some information around and nobody was checking it... But it was not about Orlik but about Omar z Krotkovského dvora. In Czech Republic I heard many times "Slovakian wolfdogs have problems with curly hair because of Omar". The same I heard in Slovakia - that this dog is responsible for the hair problems. But for me it was very suspicious because there was a kennels where you hade some curly coated puppies in every litter. With ONE exception - it was the litter where the father was ... Omar. This litter was "curly coat free"... So we collected all the cases of curly coared dogs (not only the cases discovered during the bonitation but also many example which we collected from the breeders). We put it into the database and the computer found out that it was not Omar - the common ancestor was Orlik... Should we put him on the black list? I don't think so... Why? Because all dogs have advantages and faults... In the Orlik case - when it comes to the hair you must pay attention and not to make strong inbreeds because the possibility that the puppies will have also curly hair is much higher than by other matings. The same is also with using dogs which are strong inbreeds on Orlik - when you mate female (which has low inbreed coefficient) with male which is "high inbreed on Orlik" you will also have huge possibility many curly coated puppies will be born because they will get more from the father than from the mother. So the question is why people use offsprings of Orlik? Answer is clear - hair is not everything. Curly hair "typ Orlik" has better quality than by many other lines (there are many CzW which have wrong soft hair - but nobody cares for it and nobody check this problem). Many dogs from this line give great rich coat (but not mix it with long as by some longaired dogs). I also had no problems to use for my females dogs which have Orlik (3,4 generation) because all the males were known for giving puppies with very stable character and very good penn hip results. All of them were typical dogs with normal hair. So the advantages were bigger than the "risk" and the puppies heritated exactly what I expected. But 'no' - I personally would not make stronger inbreed on Orlik because in the most cases I saw it finished with the hair by the puppies far from being "typical" CzW coat. Orlik is only one of the examples - there are many dogs with Orlik in ther pedigree. And it is really nothing wrong - it not make the worser than other dogs - in some cases they can be even better: I personally would take a very nice typical dog with good character and good hips and Orlink in the pedigree than a dog without Orlik but looking untypical, doggish and with agressive character. Because the point of breeding and making the progress base on taking the best and discarding the bad things... If you will be able to discard the curly hair by Orlik you will get nice dogs, with nice character and in the most cases good hips. The breeders must only pay attention while making the inbreeds because of the PROBABILITY. In some cases you can see that because some breeders have no idea about the RISK they make strong inbreeds on Orlik and their puppies are more and more curly coated - they make selection... but the selection goes in the direction "curly coated Wolfdogs"... thay make exactly the wrong "genes" stronger instead of trying to breed them out. From the genetic point it is also problematic because most cases must be examined basing on the genetics of OUR breed. Already in the theory it is not so easy to follow because curly hair is incompletely dominant. Additionaly you have different degrees of curly hairs - sometimes it is only some curly hair on the back or/and rump. Sometimes you have curly hairs on the whole body (the dogs look like sheeps). Curly hair is not the only "hair problem": - the curly hairs are not only "typical" for Orlik and Slovakian dogs because you have the same problem (one line) in Czech Republic - the same problems but these dogs have nothing to do with Orlik so it must come from other ancestors. - we have dogs with too short hair (there are already whole lines of dogs with untypical too short hair but they are never listed because the judges never know if they see a dog with untypical too short coat or the dogs are shedding) - we have longhaired dogs - they appear mostly in Italy but the problem comes from the German Shepherd Dogs - so it can appear by other lines too but the italian breeder make selection on such coat and the problem appears by him much more frequenty. Such hair is also very problematic for working breed (problems with overheating) - there are dogs with soft coat - it is also problematic because such hair looks normal but are not weather resist as the typical CzW hair (for example ddogs with soft coat ry much longer than typical dogs). Also here nobody follow and fight with these faults... We have really a lot to do and a lot to select... Anyway we have much bigger problems - sure we have to pay attention for everything also the hair (because they are pretty common last time) but we have much more serious problems: - open lips - we have already whole lines where NOT EVEN ONE dog has typical dry lips. Open lips and too heavy doggish heads are by some lines not "exceptions" but real INVASION - heavy heads - we have some lines which are already so far away from being wolfish that when you will change the colour of the dogs from wolfish grey to brown you will get TYPICAL ... German Shepherd Dogs... - with heavy heads come also wrinkles - there are more and more dogs which look like shar peis - have so many wrinkles on their heads... It makes the heads to look untypical and the number of such dogs is rising - heavy dogs - the tendency to breed as big dog as possible caused that there are more and more CzW which are so badly build (heavy and limphatic) that the dogs have even problems to pass the 20 km exams... - character - everybody criticise shy dogs. Sure they can not be called typical CzW. But there are more and more dogs which are too calm - lazy, lymphatic CzW which do not want to move, which is not active is also NO typical CzW. In the whole history I do not know even one dog which get "Oj"-character code ( flegmatic, calm temperament) but I know already some new dogs which really deserve such description... It is sad to see that Anatolian and Caucasian Shepherd of you friends are much more actiuve than some CzWs I know... And for sure we can find more.... But still I can say that problems with the exterier are not so problematic as the problems with the health... If the dog has curly coat it can live happy for years. But when you have dog which is not able to move at the age of 8 monts...it is the end... And it is much more problematic to follow because many breeders and owners hide health problems... I will not say coat is no important but it is nothing compared to the bigger and bigger amount of CzW with ED problems. Why? Nobody cares for ED so the breeders breed with CzW even if it is proven that the dogs have elbow dysplasia.... ....BUT.... We will never be able to prepare any black list. We can notice the problems, collect the information, store HD, ED, PRA results but all we will have are just pure suspicion and cases which we can proove with smaller or bigger probability. Yes, we do it - we collect the results, store the rumours and goosips. But we make it the same way other breeders do. Maybe in the future we will have some good results and we can find out some problematic "lines" or "dogs" but now... we can only discuss it unofficialy here on forum... On the other hand I'm for such disscusion even if for some people it will look like muckraking.I was really amused when I heard some goosips but last time I'm really shocked about the amount of false informaton spread by jealous breeders about other dogs and other breeders. If you heard some rumours and accusations spread behind the back of others - just write it here... We can always check it in public - what we know and what we have - basing on the facts and not on the "top secret fairy tales" which are so popular last time... It will be really great when even one dog or one breeder can be cleared from the accusations.... __________________ . The customs of your tribe are not laws of nature - George Bernard Shaw

27-10-2008, 21:28	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Ina, that's why I wrote documented. About this dog-example, Margo wrote on the french forum: "Orlik z Rosíkova is a dog which is responsible for the hair problems by CzW (the breeders in origin countries a very carefull and try not to make inbreeds and in no way strong inbreeds on this dog)". The current way these kind on informations are only available for few people, more efficient cooperation is needed. Especially for country like mine where there is no breeding commission. We currently have a strong inbreed on this dog and with easier access to information this maybe would have been avoided.

28-10-2008, 01:23	#6
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I am not an experienced breeder or a specialist in genes, but to me it seems a little more complicated ? How can you ever be sure where some defects start in the breed ? To take the example of Orlik z Rosíkova mentioned earlier, if this dog have problems with fur/hair, how can you be sure that it all come from this dog and not some ancestors of this dog, who was carring this gen for bad fur/hair, but just did not show it ? And in the future when some defect is discovered in a dog, how to be sure that dog it self is due to this defect and not the combination of genes from ancestors ? Is it really possible to be 100% sure where some defects decent from, without the complete breed in this DNA-database ? ...sometimes genes jumps a couple of generations(as far as I know). As I started my post by saying, "I am not an experienced breeder or specialist in genes", this "DNA-database" will make more unnecessary discussions, bad talk about eachother and problems I think Rolf

28-10-2008, 09:24	#9
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	You will wait more than 10 years to have DNA DB with few diseases, money is money. A word about jumping behind rumours, look back on P. Winter accusation/rumours thread, 95% of the forum run after it, you can read on the thread I was not and was not saying my hear say as so many did. This list exists, but is private, that's the point. And private doesn't mean harmless. I don't think open debat can be as wrong as you say: affirmations/suspicions can be analysed by many different people (distributed intelligence you said?) and proves/arguments accumulates in one way or in the other way. The biggest problem is that people are TOO proud of their dogs, I thought it was a French particularity, but it seems not.

28-10-2008, 12:44	#11
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I think all informations needed for this litter is already available here on the database for breeders. And no, I don´t think the list would have changed anything. Ina

28-10-2008, 13:20	#12
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I see more problems than solutions with this list ! How to be 100%(not 99%) sure that some dog is the reason for some defect ? How can you exclude the ancestors of this dog if they are already death and have no DNA-sample ? When to dogs makes puppies, not all puppies get same genes from the parrents(or grand parrents) and some dogs who have defects don`t pass on the defects to puppies, so I don`t understand the reason for this list ? But maybe it is just me who is stupid Knowing the dog(puppies from this dog, parrents, grand parrents and siblings) you want to use for breeding, will always be the best solution. When all comes to all, you can NEVER be sure of how puppies will turn out to be, dosent matter pedigree, bonitation or DNA ? Another question : when will a defect be big/bad enough for a dog to be addet to this list ? who will be judge for this defects(everybody know that two judges can judge different) ? ....So back to the main question : How to 100% sure that some defects come from the dog in question ? ...this list will always be subjective from judge to judge and therefor the list is useless ...in my opinion ! Rolf

28-10-2008, 14:11	#13
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Remove the words "list" and "suspicious", I know writing it they were not well chosen, replace them by "breeding experiences shared knowledges". Breeder X noticed that when crossing dog A with dog B, but also when crossing dog A with dog C, D or E, it gives always the particularity Y etc... so on for relatives... I guess there are a lot to share and it's would be easier access, so more used, if documented somewhere.

28-10-2008, 16:10	#15
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Conditions of applications are to define, nothing is for nothing, there is work to do for everybody. Even if all would be not 100% accurate, how can one say yet that the overall benefit would be not positive at the end ?

28-10-2008, 17:05	#17
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	It would be the perfect world if all breeders would do like that, but reality is reality, and worth giving some info than nothing no ? What about seeing not only the male or female, but also grand-parents, and more far away, relatives ? What about dead dogs we still need to have some info on what they trace etc...