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Old 12-11-2010, 21:09   #1
hanninadina
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Default About the GSD in the origin of CzW

In german version of the book from Hartl and Jindra from 1996 it is written on page 13, that the first german shepard failed to breed because Brita attacked him and he was afraid and run away with his tail under his belly.

The second gsd, aggressiv, did attack Brita and so she stopped and let him do "his job".

Here is a ling to german version of the book. I know that it was removed out of the book, all the wolf writing because american and english people who were interested in gsd did not like to read or hear about wolves in the dog breed.

Please look at page 44, you can see a pur wolf standing beside a lying gsd without any signs of fear, shyness or being timid. Stephanitz confirms that even pure adult wolves were caught in the wild and socialized in big german cities without any problems! http://www.archive.org/stream/derdeu...ge/44/mode/2up

In 46 is a F 1. It is written in the text about the wilddogs!

Please read the text from Ann Dresselhaus about gsd = hybrids, I will send it as eMail, because it is to big for here. Hope you got your eMail here. Otherwise please send me.
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Old 13-11-2010, 00:35   #2
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What was written in the English version of Der deutsche Schaferhund regarding German Shepherd Dogs:

"One has only to glance at the following picture to be convinced that there is nothing, positively less than nothing, to be gained by the infusion of a wolf's blood for the purpose of adding to the "points" of shepherd dogs. The picture shows and ill-assorted pair, a shepherd dog and a wolf, which were exhibited twenty years ago in a kennel in Hamburg."

(P. 47, 1923 English Edition)

You can see almost entire English 1923 edition here:

http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false

Is that what is also written in the German 1921 Edition?
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Old 13-11-2010, 13:29   #3
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Originally Posted by yukidomari View Post
What was written in the English version of Der deutsche Schaferhund regarding German Shepherd Dogs:

"One has only to glance at the following picture to be convinced that there is nothing, positively less than nothing, to be gained by the infusion of a wolf's blood for the purpose of adding to the "points" of shepherd dogs. The picture shows and ill-assorted pair, a shepherd dog and a wolf, which were exhibited twenty years ago in a kennel in Hamburg."

(P. 47, 1923 English Edition)

You can see almost entire English 1923 edition here:

http://books.google.com/books?prints...page&q&f=false

Is that what is also written in the German 1921 Edition?
Very likely as it is what the author clearly stated all his life and also stated on page 45:

>> A sharp cleavage has been achieved between our house dogs living at home and their wild cousins living at liberty, by a spearation lasting for eons, by a life lived under vastly different conditions, by a mental developement, which is a consequence of intimate connection with man, and, last but by no means least, by a special selection for the purposes of breeding. This cleavage not only touches, as we said above, the exterior build, but also, and above all, the characteristics and inner qualities. Every Infusion therefor of wild dog blood which is effected without a scientific motive must be called a sin against our shepherd dog.<<
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Old 14-11-2010, 10:13   #4
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We are not talking about changing the german shepard, but if it is possible to find some tamed, trainable wolves who can be breed with a csw so that it does not throw the csw back to untrainable "hybrids".

And that did Stephanitz confirmed that he knew people who were able and had pure wolves taken out of the wild and tamed for living in the city without problems!

As I wrote above, make the difference!
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Old 16-11-2010, 21:24   #5
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But csw are too no pets. Because of the gsd in them they are much more hyperactiv and aggressiv than hc and wolves are!
How is this true when tons of people have GSDs, even working line hard GSD, or even Czech-bred GSDs similar to or even from the same lines as those used in the foundation of CsV???? And I assure you, many of these dogs are fantastic family members and, yes, PETS.
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Old 16-11-2010, 21:38   #6
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The mixture with high working line gsd with a wolf subspecies carpathain wolves which are known in wolfworld as more let us say activ wolves subspecies. Guess why in www.wolfscience.at they took american wolves and not carpathian wolves although they would get them for free from Zoltan Horkey who have his only 150 km away from them. They had some and gave them back... They were not easy workable like the american ones are.

And please you do not want to tell me that a IPO III high working class gsd is hold as a pet in a house with kids. In germany these animals are sitting in kennels. The owner tell you that these animals will only work very good because they had to wait so long and are ready to work when letting them out.

The founder gsd and the founder csw were all aggressiv dogs because they must be or how do you think a dog would get a hold of a person who tried to escaped over the iron curtain? The task from these csw were like a herding dogs task, go and get that person. And they must work alone. And if there was no soldier they even were allowed to kill the person! You honestly do not want to tell me that these dogs were pet dogs!

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Old 16-11-2010, 21:47   #7
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And please you do not want to tell me that a IPO III high working class gsd is hold as a pet in a house with kids. In germany these animals are sitting in kennels. The owner tell you that these animals will only work very good because they had to wait so long and are ready to work when letting them out.
If a GSD has aggression problems and reactivity, it is not a typical GSD and as previously stated before on this forum and elsewhere, dog sports like IPO and SchH titles are not indicative of actual proper working character of a GSD.

In fact there has been much criticism leveled at sport-bred GSDs and the amount of prey drive and excitability they can have. This includes dogs from Germany.

A proper level GSD is not a cat-killer nor inappropriately aggressive to strangers. And as far as I know, Czech line border-patrol GSDs were not at the time sport-bred, and the z P S lines are even today known for stability of character.

And yes, I do know of actual working personal protection trained GSDs that are at home in a family with children, other animals, and other dogs. Actually, the woman I personally know has a personal protection trained GSD from z P S lines, the lines from which many GSD in CSV were founded on.

CAN a GSD be aggressive when needed? Of course, and that's is often part of their job, to have an attack drive. But these drives in a stable dog are manageable and in GSDs, often in response to directives from handlers.

Last edited by yukidomari; 16-11-2010 at 22:00.
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Old 17-11-2010, 11:21   #8
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This doesn't make sense because 80% of bites from family dogs doesn't mean all 80% is from German Shepherd Dog as not 100% of German families keep GSDs..

Also, nobody reports dog bites from small dogs, everyone knows that bite statistics aren't accurate due to reporting rates and trends.
It also shows, that you have to be able to read statistics to use them, or as a German talk says "don´t trust any statistic you haven´t faked yourself". German Shepherds are high in German Bite Statistics but it isn´t showed if they live in the house (what still isn´t that usual in most working GSH, they normally live outside in a kennel), in many if a dog or a human was bitten (GSD are often involved in dog bitings due to their bad socialisation with breeders and owners) and of course you are right, how high the percentage is looking at the whole number of dogs of this breed and especially the main number of dog bites from small dogs isn´t reported - otherwise Miniature Pinschers would be on number one I suppose.

And I fully agree with you, the GSDs that have been used in founding the breed have been totally different from the working line GSD we see here today due to horrible breeding selection in the past decades here. What is the reason that they more and more disappear out of police work after being THE police dogs in former times.

US-bite statitstics are the same and have been also used wrongly in this kind of discussion before. In the US-statistics the Pitbull-Staff group is number one and hybrids are not. No wonder if you know about statistics you will know that 1. bite statistics are not really reliable out of the reasons we stated before, 2. Pits and Hybrids are mostly kept by totally different people and under totally different circumstances and 3. many Hybrids are officially sleddog-crossings to avoid problems. So you can´t use them to proofe neither that they are dangerous, nor that they are not, without having a closer look on the circumstances.

All in all bite statistics are normally not usefull to judge about breeds, if you don´t take other things into consideration.

Ina

Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 17-11-2010 at 13:53.
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Old 18-11-2010, 00:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
The founder gsd and the founder csw were all aggressiv dogs because they must be or how do you think a dog would get a hold of a person who tried to escaped over the iron curtain? The task from these csw were like a herding dogs task, go and get that person. And they must work alone. And if there was no soldier they even were allowed to kill the person! You honestly do not want to tell me that these dogs were pet dogs!
The dog behaviour while at work and with strangers is completly different from the behaviour with family, you cant judge the quality as Pet dog of any breed basing only by its work, a nice exemple are Brazilian Mastiffs, well known agressive dog, which not long ago was acceptable and even desired to attack the judge in the dogshows if he make the mistake trying to touch the dog, or get too close of him, a long ago was used even to hunt slaves.
The same agressive Brazilian Mastiff is an well known excelent pet, excelent for children also for old people, it all because with his family he is not only protective (which unfortunately we need) as very docile and easy to hand, pacific and reliable.
CzW are not agressive at all, but utterly smart dogs, which will act and even arrive to an attack if they have clear reasons to do it.
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Old 18-11-2010, 08:41   #10
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The dog behaviour while at work and with strangers is completly different from the behaviour with family, you cant judge the quality as Pet dog of any breed basing only by its work,
CzW are not agressive at all, but utterly smart dogs, which will act and even arrive to an attack if they have clear reasons to do it.
You are so right! Apart from the fact that, as far as I know, their lack of interest in attacking without a good reason has always been a problem in training, are there several things mixed up that shouldn´t be.

Problems with aggression, no matter of trained or not trained dog occure in the major amount of cases from dog handlers not being in charge of their leading position. The leader of the pack decides who is to be attacked and who isn´t, being aware of this fact it is very easy to prevent problems. A dog handler that will stay calm and in charge and that gives clear rules will have an easy to handle dog, it is as simple as that.

If somebody is not able to clearly lead a dog and fulfill this task, he should be very aware of this lack of skills and get himself a dog that is not that much challenging looking at this point, like for example an Irish Wolfhound or a typical Golden Retriever. This doesn´t mean the other dogs are aggressiv, it means, that some breeds have a lack of demanding skills at that point that is untypical for most canines and that also makes them not very suitable for a lot of tasks for working dogs.

Also a breed that prefers flight reaction against strangers will be easier in this one point (and only for the owner, because the dog lives in stress!) but might also be a problem adult in family, because the aggression towards family members is something totally different to aggression towards strangers.
Apart from the fact that an owner lacking those skills is quite likely to also get problems in the family with a dog that thinks it is necessary to take the leading position that in it´s eyes needs a new occupation. As a pack without a good leader is at high risk in the eyes of a canine.

And last but not least are some parts of police dog training totally different from the normal dog training due to the fact that a normally trained dog would put a risk on itself and on the policemen coming behind it. This dogs are trained in a totally different way. These dogs normally aren´t GSD by the way and will never be CSW but in almost all cases in Europe Mallinois. And yes these dogs are very dangerous but because of their training not because of just being aggressiv.

Ina
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